Honestly, tab targeting is so twenty years ago. Even mobile games have figured out that action combat is more fun.
If you’re going to do “lock on” combat and truly want to make it revolutionary, then you should consider incorporating aspects from actual fighting games (ala Smash Bros/Street Fighter) into the game. Low attack, high attack, block, dodge, throw.
Hallo again everyone - after gathering up all your feedback for our team, I've gone ahead and updated the original post with some of your top highlights!
We're excited to see what you all share for our next Dev Discussion on mentoring!
I really think that a fine balance is going to be huge. Obviously there will be some long cooldown skills that you want to be tab targeted because missing a huge spell with a long cooldown would be super punishing. That being said, tab targeting should either have lower damage or longer cooldowns than a similar action skill. Casually I enjoy action targeting, but the hardcore player in me will be looking to max/min with skill rotations once I can playtest good combos. Ultimately i will be looking to pump out the most dps in raids asap, so picking what does the most damage the quickest and most reliably will probably be my personal meta.
Trample the dead and hurdle the fallen. Run, and you will only die tired.
Regardless, please don't be afraid of movement and thus please avoid animation-locking or things such as cancelling your skill's animation because you moved. The more movement the better, things feel more fluid with it. Nobody wants to stand in one place, after all, this isn't the olden days. (then again, WoW's casters still are the same stationary turrets they used to be, I sure do feel bad for them)
The MMOs you should be focusing the most on when researching good combat are GW2 and BDO. Do note that the latter's screenshake is quite annoying, though. Being able to turn screenshake off entirely would be great.
Action without a doubt, be inspired by the combat of Dark Souls 3 and Guild Wars 2. Do not make an action game like ESO, the player holds a two-handed sword as if it were made of cardboard.
If DEVS is inspired by a game mentioned above, you have a few points to consider:
*Two-handed weapons such as: Claymore, halberds, spears, must have an animation that reflects their weight, conveying reality in the movement
*One-handed weapons, such as daggers, axes or swords, should be more agile in movement compared to two-handed weapons.
*The shield may have some resistance, in pvp combat players will block infinitely. A resistance bar for melee characters balances the combat.
*I liked the way DEVS thought about magic, but you have to be careful with over-the-top channel animations. A wizard that floats to the end to channel a skill is an easy target
Don't focus on over-the-top animations that don't make sense in real-life, large-scale combat.
The skills must have synergy with the equipped weapons, transmitting a beautiful animation in combat.
I am looking forward to new combat updates, I met this project a few weeks ago and I wish DEVS success. The art of the game is beautiful.
Regardless, please don't be afraid of movement and thus please avoid animation-locking or things such as cancelling your skill's animation because you moved. The more movement the better, things feel more fluid with it. Nobody wants to stand in one place, after all, this isn't the olden days. (then again, WoW's casters still are the same stationary turrets they used to be, I sure do feel bad for them)
The MMOs you should be focusing the most on when researching good combat are GW2 and BDO. Do note that the latter's screenshake is quite annoying, though. Being able to turn screenshake off entirely would be great.
Screen shaking can be disabled on the GW2, no problems with screen shaking, many players like it. It is only up to the DEVS to implement an option to disable
Please do not imitate those games where the player kills the monsters in some attacks, just like in BDO (Black Desert), the monsters have to present a challenge
Regardless, please don't be afraid of movement and thus please avoid animation-locking or things such as cancelling your skill's animation because you moved. The more movement the better, things feel more fluid with it. Nobody wants to stand in one place, after all, this isn't the olden days. (then again, WoW's casters still are the same stationary turrets they used to be, I sure do feel bad for them)
The MMOs you should be focusing the most on when researching good combat are GW2 and BDO. Do note that the latter's screenshake is quite annoying, though. Being able to turn screenshake off entirely would be great.
Screen shaking can be disabled on the GW2, no problems with screen shaking, many players like it. It is only up to the DEVS to implement an option to disable
He said BDO's screenshake, not GW2
Though I do agree, too much screen shake can be detrimental. You only need a hint of it, the imagination will fill in the rest.
I think both are really important. Having the extra freedom to play how you want is way more enticing to me.
For the big boss fights I think tab is better but for just roaming around questing and pvp I could see using action.
In a video I watched "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUp46b2gR0" they mentioned spells blocking your vision which is a big concern for action combat.
If I had to choose one, I would pick tab targeting.
Tab target for me. Never experienced an MMO action combat that resonated with me. Action style combat and spamming auto attacks/aiming spells can become very tedious when grinding as one does in MMOs. Also, in large fights with lots of players tab target gives more control over my targets as opposed to trying to aim at people with a zerg of intervening players block everything I do.
So yeah, I still appreciate ground targeted spells and classical AoEs, but fps style abilities...nah. (atleast it seems like intrepid is going for unified hitboxes though thank god. Giving an inherent advantage to smaller characters without compensation would be really lame design choice)
If AC deals more damages than TT then its not fair for players with disabilites and it will just reward the elite. Also, it might push certain class to better performer and put the others in the shadow. For example, rangers might be better than summnoner because of the skill gap and this might push players to follow a meta because of it.
If AC deals more damages than TT then its not fair for players with disabilites and it will just reward the elite.
This is true for the vast majority of video games. They generally require hand-eye coordination, reflexes, and mechanical skill.
If a pro player develops a deabilitating injury or disability, then they basically retire from pro level competition. They still play games for fun, but they know that they're no longer elite and accept it, instead of trying to change what made the game popular just so that they can lower the skill bar enough to compete again.
If AC deals more damages than TT then its not fair for players with disabilites and it will just reward the elite. Also, it might push certain class to better performer and put the others in the shadow. For example, rangers might be better than summnoner because of the skill gap and this might push players to follow a meta because of it.
Yea I'm sorry, as much as it sucks to say, but you do not develop anything around edge cases. You create the core idea, and then you add extra functionalities on top to address the edge cases.
It's such a terrible idea to go down your line of thought.
We don't switch from building stairs to building long slow-incline ramps because a part of the population uses wheelchairs. We build stairs as usual, but ALSO build those ramps.
I've mentioned before I'm not convinced AC should do more damage than TT. If that is the case then everyone will just go AC so why have TT at all?
For one, because it requires skill. Someone who hits 50% of their 120% strength AC abilities is going to do far less damage than the TT player who hits 100% of their 100% strength abilities.
Second, the abilities will be balanced to accommodate all of this.
The Devs call AoE an Active Combat Ability. Therefore, AoE would hit the hardest and requires no skill. Single target abilities should do the biggest damage, there is risk in single target abilities either through AC or TT. In fact, it is highly likely that AC will have less single target damage skills than TT.
The Devs call AoE an Active Combat Ability. Therefore, AoE would hit the hardest and requires no skill. Single target abilities should do the biggest damage, there is risk in single target abilities either through AC or TT. In fact, it is highly likely that AC will have less single target damage skills than TT.
You're correct, and like I said, it will be balanced accordingly.
We also don't know really what AC is going to look like. It could be mostly single target projectiles and such, or it could be like Wildstar. Either way, there's ways to balance both.
Yeah, I did enjoy Wildstar. I don't want telegraphs like Wildstar though. We'll see what we end up with when the combat changes have happened. I'm not sure how much of APOC will be transferred across for Ashes. APOC used a lot of single target ranged abilities.
If AC is gonna deal greater damage than TT on average its fair to give TT autoattacks as long as its balanced well. Could deffinately experiment with that idea imo
0
Options
zammwichMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For me I feel like TT should be used for less impactful filler abilities to keep combat from feeling to tedious but the more impactful abilities would feel a lot more rewarding to have that action based flare to them.
0
Options
FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2021
While it has been debated in many threads that AC will do more damage than TT, we don't actually know that is where IS is going with it. What we were given Q&A of the most recent livestream was that AC and TT will be asynchronous (so, the abilities will not match) and each will have benefits and drawbacks with the aim of creating balance between the systems using the benefits and drawbacks. Damage is only one possible benefit.
If AC deals more damages than TT then its not fair for players with disabilites and it will just reward the elite. Also, it might push certain class to better performer and put the others in the shadow. For example, rangers might be better than summnoner because of the skill gap and this might push players to follow a meta because of it.
I take offence to this statement am almost blind, color blind and have bad eye sight for details but stile i prefer action combat and excel in it. To use that as an argument to sway devs opinion is just not right.
I hope you are ashamed of yourself!
I did not like that Steven basicly only used one skill (the whip) in the video and the rest was just spammy left mousebutton clicks.
Hope thats not a direction they are going towards.
Rather have more skill rotations.
Unlocking new skills to use are a big part what i like in mmorpgs.
Only having like 5 skills and rest are left mousebutton mashing and dodging takes away alot of joy from the game.
Also for a future expansion kind of view, its easier to build upon a TT system with new skills etc.
In an AC combat game theres not much to add.
I have very little experience of hybrid combat and/or AC. So cant really give a proper opinion. But of what ive seen and played i always feel like there´s not as much input as from a TT system. You dog pile on the boss and do as much dmg you can until its dead. And its more about avoiding mechanics, rather than countering them.
With TT (in my experience) there´s much more focus on choosing the right abilities at the correct moment and being more strategic. You have abilities that counter the NPC/Player and have to pay attention to what he is doing, and not only evade his abilities but actually deflect them as well. The gameplay might look slow at first but because of the wide array of abilities and decision making, the fight itself is hectic and challenging.
Now im not saying that AC does not have these characteristics. But i feel like they are more frequent in a TT system.
Having said that, a hybrid system looks/sounds promising. I feel like intrepid is on the right track and during the march development update they said they were going to work on the combat so im intrigued to see what we´re gonna get. So I guess what we all want is a "controlled" but most importantly a responsive combat system.
I have very little experience of hybrid combat and/or AC. So cant really give a proper opinion. But of what ive seen and played i always feel like there´s not as much input as from a TT system. You dog pile on the boss and do as much dmg you can until its dead. And its more about avoiding mechanics, rather than countering them.
With TT (in my experience) there´s much more focus on choosing the right abilities at the correct moment and being more strategic. You have abilities that counter the NPC/Player and have to pay attention to what he is doing, and not only evade his abilities but actually deflect them as well. The gameplay might look slow at first but because of the wide array of abilities and decision making, the fight itself is hectic and challenging.
Now im not saying that AC does not have these characteristics. But i feel like they are more frequent in a TT system.
Having said that, a hybrid system looks/sounds promising. I feel like intrepid is on the right track and during the march development update they said they were going to work on the combat so im intrigued to see what we´re gonna get. So I guess what we all want is a "controlled" but most importantly a responsive combat system.
Comments
What like For Honor as an MMO?
We're excited to see what you all share for our next Dev Discussion on mentoring!
Regardless, please don't be afraid of movement and thus please avoid animation-locking or things such as cancelling your skill's animation because you moved. The more movement the better, things feel more fluid with it. Nobody wants to stand in one place, after all, this isn't the olden days. (then again, WoW's casters still are the same stationary turrets they used to be, I sure do feel bad for them)
The MMOs you should be focusing the most on when researching good combat are GW2 and BDO. Do note that the latter's screenshake is quite annoying, though. Being able to turn screenshake off entirely would be great.
If DEVS is inspired by a game mentioned above, you have a few points to consider:
*Two-handed weapons such as: Claymore, halberds, spears, must have an animation that reflects their weight, conveying reality in the movement
*One-handed weapons, such as daggers, axes or swords, should be more agile in movement compared to two-handed weapons.
*The shield may have some resistance, in pvp combat players will block infinitely. A resistance bar for melee characters balances the combat.
*I liked the way DEVS thought about magic, but you have to be careful with over-the-top channel animations. A wizard that floats to the end to channel a skill is an easy target
Don't focus on over-the-top animations that don't make sense in real-life, large-scale combat.
The skills must have synergy with the equipped weapons, transmitting a beautiful animation in combat.
I am looking forward to new combat updates, I met this project a few weeks ago and I wish DEVS success. The art of the game is beautiful.
Screen shaking can be disabled on the GW2, no problems with screen shaking, many players like it. It is only up to the DEVS to implement an option to disable
He said BDO's screenshake, not GW2
Though I do agree, too much screen shake can be detrimental. You only need a hint of it, the imagination will fill in the rest.
For the big boss fights I think tab is better but for just roaming around questing and pvp I could see using action.
In a video I watched "
If I had to choose one, I would pick tab targeting.
[/quote]
Good thing you dont have to choose one!
So yeah, I still appreciate ground targeted spells and classical AoEs, but fps style abilities...nah. (atleast it seems like intrepid is going for unified hitboxes though thank god. Giving an inherent advantage to smaller characters without compensation would be really lame design choice)
If a pro player develops a deabilitating injury or disability, then they basically retire from pro level competition. They still play games for fun, but they know that they're no longer elite and accept it, instead of trying to change what made the game popular just so that they can lower the skill bar enough to compete again.
Actually they don't.
And in fact, you're forced to have 25% of the one you might not want.
Yea I'm sorry, as much as it sucks to say, but you do not develop anything around edge cases. You create the core idea, and then you add extra functionalities on top to address the edge cases.
It's such a terrible idea to go down your line of thought.
We don't switch from building stairs to building long slow-incline ramps because a part of the population uses wheelchairs. We build stairs as usual, but ALSO build those ramps.
For one, because it requires skill. Someone who hits 50% of their 120% strength AC abilities is going to do far less damage than the TT player who hits 100% of their 100% strength abilities.
Second, the abilities will be balanced to accommodate all of this.
You're correct, and like I said, it will be balanced accordingly.
We also don't know really what AC is going to look like. It could be mostly single target projectiles and such, or it could be like Wildstar. Either way, there's ways to balance both.
I take offence to this statement am almost blind, color blind and have bad eye sight for details but stile i prefer action combat and excel in it. To use that as an argument to sway devs opinion is just not right.
I hope you are ashamed of yourself!
Hope thats not a direction they are going towards.
Rather have more skill rotations.
Unlocking new skills to use are a big part what i like in mmorpgs.
Only having like 5 skills and rest are left mousebutton mashing and dodging takes away alot of joy from the game.
Also for a future expansion kind of view, its easier to build upon a TT system with new skills etc.
In an AC combat game theres not much to add.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
With TT (in my experience) there´s much more focus on choosing the right abilities at the correct moment and being more strategic. You have abilities that counter the NPC/Player and have to pay attention to what he is doing, and not only evade his abilities but actually deflect them as well. The gameplay might look slow at first but because of the wide array of abilities and decision making, the fight itself is hectic and challenging.
Now im not saying that AC does not have these characteristics. But i feel like they are more frequent in a TT system.
Having said that, a hybrid system looks/sounds promising. I feel like intrepid is on the right track and during the march development update they said they were going to work on the combat so im intrigued to see what we´re gonna get. So I guess what we all want is a "controlled" but most importantly a responsive combat system.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f