The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.
Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.
Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.
Genius.
I can make stories up too, but it is just a waste of time.
It's not a story, it's something that actually happened.
Sure it is, bud.
Lets analyze your story.
First of all, you are talking about a pickup raid. Guild raids (which make up 90% of raids) don't just boot players for one off bad performance.
So, pick up raid it is. Already we are in a minority.
Now, with this pick up raid, you have a leader using a combat tracker. There was a wipe - for unspecified reasons. If low DPS was the reason for the wipe, booting a player is almost never the answer. The answer is increasing the uptime of your DPS characters - the time they have to be able to DPS.
Now, some people that run pick up raids boot people because it makes them feel good. They think they are in charge, so they can do what they want. Would such a player have booted someone for low DPS, without paying attention to what was actually happening? Maybe, but that player was going to boot someone anyway.
So, we now have a pick up raid being lead by someone that should not be leading pick up raids. All that player booting the lowest DPS means to the rest of the raid is that the raid leader is someone that shouldn't be leading a raid. This is doing all other people present a favor, as a raid isn't going to be successful with that leader. Him booting that player (regardless of a combat tracker) is just telling the rest of you to leave and not waste your time.
And the last point is you said the player kicked was "the healer", which means this raid leader was running a raid with a single healer. This is the part that makes this story an obvious piece of fiction.
So, you have a story that was clearly made up, but if true is simply pointing out a bad raid leader for all present to avoid in the future, and the use of a combat tracker in said story was negligible. The story would have played out the same with or without a combat tracker.
The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.
Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.
Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.
Genius.
To think that this scenario is possible to happen at least in 51% of raids is totally detached from reality,
The only realistic way for this to occur is in a pug raid where the leader does this only if he has another person ready to fill in.
Something similar can happen in overpopulated guilds where there is a big competition for raid spots and the leaders usually tend to bench players that are not performing as well as others - but even then it is almost 99% of the time just a bench and not a guild kick
Edit:
And to think that he would kick a healer is just totally not possible, because a pug is formed if you already know of an available tank or there is not a tank drout and since you usually need more healers than just 1 then it just means that the last spot being filled is 90% of the time a healer
Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.
Genius.
If I seen your DPS was low for a healer I would kick you after 2-3 pulls depending on how quickly I think I could replace you. Key words "low for a healer", if all of my other healers are preforming well and you are not, that shows me that you are not ready to learn the raid because you are still learning your job. You can call that being toxic, but I call it not wasting 7-39(depending on the game) other peoples time.
Well, it's an RPG - so RP isn't really a waste.
It's not a Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game.
And yet that does not seem to stop a large percentage of these games audiences from playing them like they are a "Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game" in the case of PvEers or a "Massively Multiplayer Rekting Game" in the case of PvPers...
Well, it's an RPG - so RP isn't really a waste.
It's not a Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game.
And yet that does not seem to stop a large percentage of these games audiences from playing them like they are a "Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game" in the case of PvEers or a "Massively Multiplayer Rekting Game" in the case of PvPers...
I would say each of these groups is significantly larger than the RP community in any given game that has them.
Well, it's an RPG - so RP isn't really a waste.
It's not a Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game.
Wait a second - Are you saying that personal RP is a valid reason for wasting time for your group/raid and thus they should not take your personal RP as a reason to exclude you from being in the said group/raid?
Isn't it the most RP thing to simulate permadeath? That way wipe isnt a time waste, but a proper game over
If you are not dressed as your character IRL while playing permadeath, are you really RPing?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
Wait a second - Are you saying that personal RP is a valid reason for wasting time for your group/raid and thus they should not take your personal RP as a reason to exclude you from being in the said group/raid?
What is "personal RP"? What types of RP do you perceive?
"Wasting time for your group/raid due to RP" is subjective.
But, yes, in an MMORPG RP should trump meta; not the other way around.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wait a second - Are you saying that personal RP is a valid reason for wasting time for your group/raid and thus they should not take your personal RP as a reason to exclude you from being in the said group/raid?
What is "personal RP"? What types of RP do you perceive?
"Wasting time for your group/raid due to RP" is subjective.
But, yes, in an MMORPG RP should trump meta; not the other way around.
So you prefer that "following meta" and "creating pugs only to get loot asap" should be banned? There is a reason that RP in games isnt popular in mmos today - and in truth it was never really popular - it existed ofc, but with always a small minority of practitioners.
MMORPG RP is an optional way to play the game - if you try to force encourage it then ppl start leaving the game if you try to force it too hard on them. If you want Ashes to be more like GTA RP, but in fantasy settings then I am sorry, but no information suggests that to be the case - but still you can try to RP like that with your community inside the game, but you just cant make the whole playerbase to be subject to RP > meta
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
So you prefer that "following meta" and "creating pugs only to get loot asap" should be banned?
I'd be ecstatic if we could put those players on separate servers. Sure.
The reason that RP in MMORPGs is not popular in MMORPGs is that gamers who didn't play RPGs jumped into playing MMORPGs.
I don't know what you mean by force it. I don't know what you mean by encourage it.
And I'm not even sure we have the same concept of RP.
I also don't know what you mean GTA RP.
I don't know about making the whole playerbase being subject to RP > Meta...
But, I'm pretty confident the devs can leave combat trackers out if they want to. As in, not implement combat trackers.
Which moves us closer to an RP experience.
The reason that RP in MMORPGs is not popular in MMORPGs is that gamers who didn't play RPGs jumped into playing MMORPGs.
No it isn't.
I know a lot (like, a LOT) of people that play MMO's and also do tabletop raiding. I've had raid guilds that have tabletop sessions weekly, on days we weren't raiding.
The reason people don't RP in MMO's is because games limit what you can do - heavily.
If you are playing a tabletop game and you decide to - say - flirt with a person working behind a bar, the person running things can make that happen. They can work out if you are successful or not, decide on the reaction various groups of NPC's will have, and through out some consequences of that action your way.
Try that in WoW.
In games, you can only do the things the developers specifically code for. This means player imagination is basically not a thing. Sure, you can have conversations and throw in the occasional prop or emote, but that isn't roleplaying.
The reason that RP in MMORPGs is not popular in MMORPGs is that gamers who didn't play RPGs jumped into playing MMORPGs.
No it isn't.
I know a lot (like, a LOT) of people that play MMO's and also do tabletop raiding. I've had raid guilds that have tabletop sessions weekly, on days we weren't raiding.
The reason people don't RP in MMO's is because games limit what you can do - heavily.
If you are playing a tabletop game and you decide to - say - flirt with a person working behind a bar, the person running things can make that happen. They can work out if you are successful or not, decide on the reaction various groups of NPC's will have, and through out some consequences of that action your way.
Try that in WoW.
In games, you can only do the things the developers specifically code for. This means player imagination is basically not a thing. Sure, you can have conversations and throw in the occasional prop or emote, but that isn't roleplaying.
To be fair in pen and paper RPGs, some of what you describe as possible is only so if your Game Master allows for it. This is the same, but digital
The reason that RP in MMORPGs is not popular in MMORPGs is that gamers who didn't play RPGs jumped into playing MMORPGs.
No it isn't.
I know a lot (like, a LOT) of people that play MMO's and also do tabletop raiding. I've had raid guilds that have tabletop sessions weekly, on days we weren't raiding.
The reason people don't RP in MMO's is because games limit what you can do - heavily.
If you are playing a tabletop game and you decide to - say - flirt with a person working behind a bar, the person running things can make that happen. They can work out if you are successful or not, decide on the reaction various groups of NPC's will have, and through out some consequences of that action your way.
Try that in WoW.
In games, you can only do the things the developers specifically code for. This means player imagination is basically not a thing. Sure, you can have conversations and throw in the occasional prop or emote, but that isn't roleplaying.
To be fair in pen and paper RPGs, some of what you describe as possible is only so if your Game Master allows for it. This is the same, but digital
For sure, I am assuming a decent person is running things.
If the person is decent, literally anything at all is possible.
In a game, literally only the things that are coded are possible.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I know a lot (like, a LOT) of people that play MMO's and also do tabletop raiding. I've had raid guilds that have tabletop sessions weekly, on days we weren't raiding.
The reason people don't RP in MMO's is because games limit what you can do - heavily.
I am pretty sure what you mean by RP and what I mean by RP is not the same thing.
If my character flirts with another person's character, rather than flirting with the player - that is RP.
Doesn't matter what the result is. The other character may ignore my character - people don't always respond to flirting.
So... I don't agree that games limit what people can do with regards to RP. Games can't really limit my RP.
Gamers can choose to play from a player's perspective rather than the character's perspective.
And, since tons of gamers who did not play RPGs flooded into MMORPGs - those gamers don't care anything at all about character perspective - they just want to win as much as possible as quickly as possible.
I know a lot (like, a LOT) of people that play MMO's and also do tabletop raiding. I've had raid guilds that have tabletop sessions weekly, on days we weren't raiding.
The reason people don't RP in MMO's is because games limit what you can do - heavily.
I am pretty sure what you mean by RP and what I mean by RP is not the same thing.
If my character flirts with another person's character, rather than flirting with the player - that is RP.
Doesn't matter what the result is. The other character may ignore my character - people don't always respond to flirting.
So... I don't agree that games limit what people can do with regards to RP. Games can't really limit my RP.
Gamers can choose to play from a player's perspective rather than the character's perspective.
And, since tons of gamers who did not play RPGs flooded into MMORPGs - those gamers don't care anything at all about character perspective - they just want to win as much as possible as quickly as possible.
I'm not talking about RP between players, or between characters. You can do this kind of RP using IRC or what ever.
I am saying that your RP in an MMO has no interaction at all with that MMO. It is chat with the occasional prop and emote, nothing more. Your RP in an MMO is limited to talk between players, there is no RP discussion between you and NPC's, and there is very limited RP action (other than emotes).
You can imagine what you like in terms of talking to other players/characters, but that isn't really RP - or at least not a good RP experience.
This is why RP in MMO's is not that popular.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm not talking about RP between players, or between characters. You can do this kind of RP using IRC or what ever.
I am saying that your RP in an MMO has no interaction at all with that MMO. It is chat with the occasional prop and emote, nothing more. Your RP in an MMO is limited to talk between players, there is no RP discussion between you and NPC's, and there is very limited RP action (other than emotes).
You can imagine what you like in terms of talking to other players/characters, but that isn't really RP - or at least not a good RP experience.
This is why RP in MMO's is not that popular.
RP is just playing the game from the perspective of your character. Anything your character does in the game is RP action.
If I'm using someone's character name as I ask them about what's happening at the castle, that's RP. If I talk to players about their characters' skills without referencing numerical data, that's RP. If I ask for Mage's to come join a battle, that's RP.
If I talk to people about the football game or Start Trek, that's not RP. If I talk to people about their low DPS numbers or their gear score, that's not RP.
What limits RP in MMORPGs these days is that there's nothing to talk about because everyone does the exact same quests and the worlds are pretty much static.
I'm not talking about RP between players, or between characters. You can do this kind of RP using IRC or what ever.
I am saying that your RP in an MMO has no interaction at all with that MMO. It is chat with the occasional prop and emote, nothing more. Your RP in an MMO is limited to talk between players, there is no RP discussion between you and NPC's, and there is very limited RP action (other than emotes).
You can imagine what you like in terms of talking to other players/characters, but that isn't really RP - or at least not a good RP experience.
This is why RP in MMO's is not that popular.
RP is just playing the game from the perspective of your character. Anything your character does in the game is RP action.
If I'm using someone's character name as I ask them about what's happening at the castle, that's RP. If I talk to players about their characters' skills without referencing numerical data, that's RP. If I ask for Mage's to come join a battle, that's RP.
If I talk to people about the football game or Start Trek, that's not RP. If I talk to people about their low DPS numbers or their gear score, that's not RP.
What limits RP in MMORPGs these days is that there's nothing to talk about because everyone does the exact same quests and the worlds are pretty much static.
I'm not arguing what RP is, or how people should RP, I am saying why, in my experience, RP'ing in MMO's isnt popular, even among people that play table top games.
I play table top games, many in my guild do as well. None of us RP in MMO's because the experience is a hollow shell of what it is during a good tabletop session, because in an MMO there is no interconnect between RP and the bulk of the games systems, meaning the RP doesn't matter in regards to any outcome.
Sure, people dont RP during quests or anything, but that is because the outcome of the quest is the same regardless. A good DM with a tabletop game can alter the outcome of events based on RP that happens, which makes that RP far more interesting.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Again, I'm pretty sure we disagree on the meaning of RP.
DEUCES
Comments
Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.
Genius.
Thats not how DPS meters work
It's not a story, it's something that actually happened.
Then that group leader was bad at their job and should never be in charge of a raid again
Sure it is, bud.
Lets analyze your story.
First of all, you are talking about a pickup raid. Guild raids (which make up 90% of raids) don't just boot players for one off bad performance.
So, pick up raid it is. Already we are in a minority.
Now, with this pick up raid, you have a leader using a combat tracker. There was a wipe - for unspecified reasons. If low DPS was the reason for the wipe, booting a player is almost never the answer. The answer is increasing the uptime of your DPS characters - the time they have to be able to DPS.
Now, some people that run pick up raids boot people because it makes them feel good. They think they are in charge, so they can do what they want. Would such a player have booted someone for low DPS, without paying attention to what was actually happening? Maybe, but that player was going to boot someone anyway.
So, we now have a pick up raid being lead by someone that should not be leading pick up raids. All that player booting the lowest DPS means to the rest of the raid is that the raid leader is someone that shouldn't be leading a raid. This is doing all other people present a favor, as a raid isn't going to be successful with that leader. Him booting that player (regardless of a combat tracker) is just telling the rest of you to leave and not waste your time.
And the last point is you said the player kicked was "the healer", which means this raid leader was running a raid with a single healer. This is the part that makes this story an obvious piece of fiction.
So, you have a story that was clearly made up, but if true is simply pointing out a bad raid leader for all present to avoid in the future, and the use of a combat tracker in said story was negligible. The story would have played out the same with or without a combat tracker.
To think that this scenario is possible to happen at least in 51% of raids is totally detached from reality,
The only realistic way for this to occur is in a pug raid where the leader does this only if he has another person ready to fill in.
Something similar can happen in overpopulated guilds where there is a big competition for raid spots and the leaders usually tend to bench players that are not performing as well as others - but even then it is almost 99% of the time just a bench and not a guild kick
Edit:
And to think that he would kick a healer is just totally not possible, because a pug is formed if you already know of an available tank or there is not a tank drout and since you usually need more healers than just 1 then it just means that the last spot being filled is 90% of the time a healer
― Plato
If I seen your DPS was low for a healer I would kick you after 2-3 pulls depending on how quickly I think I could replace you. Key words "low for a healer", if all of my other healers are preforming well and you are not, that shows me that you are not ready to learn the raid because you are still learning your job. You can call that being toxic, but I call it not wasting 7-39(depending on the game) other peoples time.
To me it would be irresponsible not to do that.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
― Plato
It's not a Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game.
And yet that does not seem to stop a large percentage of these games audiences from playing them like they are a "Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game" in the case of PvEers or a "Massively Multiplayer Rekting Game" in the case of PvPers...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
― Plato
I thought the most RP thing was the invisible letter E at the start of that term.
Wait a second - Are you saying that personal RP is a valid reason for wasting time for your group/raid and thus they should not take your personal RP as a reason to exclude you from being in the said group/raid?
― Plato
By a landslide.
If you are not dressed as your character IRL while playing permadeath, are you really RPing?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
"Wasting time for your group/raid due to RP" is subjective.
But, yes, in an MMORPG RP should trump meta; not the other way around.
So you prefer that "following meta" and "creating pugs only to get loot asap" should be banned? There is a reason that RP in games isnt popular in mmos today - and in truth it was never really popular - it existed ofc, but with always a small minority of practitioners.
MMORPG RP is an optional way to play the game - if you try to force encourage it then ppl start leaving the game if you try to force it too hard on them. If you want Ashes to be more like GTA RP, but in fantasy settings then I am sorry, but no information suggests that to be the case - but still you can try to RP like that with your community inside the game, but you just cant make the whole playerbase to be subject to RP > meta
― Plato
The reason that RP in MMORPGs is not popular in MMORPGs is that gamers who didn't play RPGs jumped into playing MMORPGs.
I don't know what you mean by force it. I don't know what you mean by encourage it.
And I'm not even sure we have the same concept of RP.
I also don't know what you mean GTA RP.
I don't know about making the whole playerbase being subject to RP > Meta...
But, I'm pretty confident the devs can leave combat trackers out if they want to. As in, not implement combat trackers.
Which moves us closer to an RP experience.
I know a lot (like, a LOT) of people that play MMO's and also do tabletop raiding. I've had raid guilds that have tabletop sessions weekly, on days we weren't raiding.
The reason people don't RP in MMO's is because games limit what you can do - heavily.
If you are playing a tabletop game and you decide to - say - flirt with a person working behind a bar, the person running things can make that happen. They can work out if you are successful or not, decide on the reaction various groups of NPC's will have, and through out some consequences of that action your way.
Try that in WoW.
In games, you can only do the things the developers specifically code for. This means player imagination is basically not a thing. Sure, you can have conversations and throw in the occasional prop or emote, but that isn't roleplaying.
To be fair in pen and paper RPGs, some of what you describe as possible is only so if your Game Master allows for it. This is the same, but digital
For sure, I am assuming a decent person is running things.
If the person is decent, literally anything at all is possible.
In a game, literally only the things that are coded are possible.
If my character flirts with another person's character, rather than flirting with the player - that is RP.
Doesn't matter what the result is. The other character may ignore my character - people don't always respond to flirting.
So... I don't agree that games limit what people can do with regards to RP. Games can't really limit my RP.
Gamers can choose to play from a player's perspective rather than the character's perspective.
And, since tons of gamers who did not play RPGs flooded into MMORPGs - those gamers don't care anything at all about character perspective - they just want to win as much as possible as quickly as possible.
I'm not talking about RP between players, or between characters. You can do this kind of RP using IRC or what ever.
I am saying that your RP in an MMO has no interaction at all with that MMO. It is chat with the occasional prop and emote, nothing more. Your RP in an MMO is limited to talk between players, there is no RP discussion between you and NPC's, and there is very limited RP action (other than emotes).
You can imagine what you like in terms of talking to other players/characters, but that isn't really RP - or at least not a good RP experience.
This is why RP in MMO's is not that popular.
If I'm using someone's character name as I ask them about what's happening at the castle, that's RP. If I talk to players about their characters' skills without referencing numerical data, that's RP. If I ask for Mage's to come join a battle, that's RP.
If I talk to people about the football game or Start Trek, that's not RP. If I talk to people about their low DPS numbers or their gear score, that's not RP.
What limits RP in MMORPGs these days is that there's nothing to talk about because everyone does the exact same quests and the worlds are pretty much static.
I play table top games, many in my guild do as well. None of us RP in MMO's because the experience is a hollow shell of what it is during a good tabletop session, because in an MMO there is no interconnect between RP and the bulk of the games systems, meaning the RP doesn't matter in regards to any outcome.
Sure, people dont RP during quests or anything, but that is because the outcome of the quest is the same regardless. A good DM with a tabletop game can alter the outcome of events based on RP that happens, which makes that RP far more interesting.
DEUCES