But come on.... It's 2022. You cant expect video games not to capitalize on cosmetics. Did yoy rly need to start such a topic?
Why can't it be discussed? It's 2022 and this game wants to be "a breath of fresh air" to mmorpgs. So perhaps they could consider doing something different and not put the burden of monetization on players who enjoy cosmetic collection as part of their game experience.
There are billions of ppl on this planet and unless you live in a nice, small town, you dont matter to anyone beyond your family and friends. Consumers of video games have 0 power. AoC wont die because of a cosmetic boycott.
And I was wrong about the full on cosmetics. But there are discussions about nameplate icons that show what armor the target uses, just like there are class icons in eso. Immedietly recognized class icons.
So it's not a gameplay issue.
I wrote this comment into another thread yesterday and I would like to post it here too.
I am against purchasable full body costumes, full armor skin sets and weapon skins but I would allow people to buy single piece cosmetics for armors. I don't mind if some one wants to use a little money to buy some little detailing for their armors. The main focus must be still kept in game achievable items.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The most elaborate cosmetics (what are called "legendary") can only be earned in-game and can't be purchased from the shop.
Yes, it is absolutely too late to get rid of the cosmetic shop. It's childish to ask for it at this point. It's a key part of the financial model of the game, and they've already sold years' worth of exclusive cosmetics that can no longer be acquired by anyone else in any other manner. They can't reverse that without defrauding customers.
Give up, you're asking for something unreasonable and unfeasible.
From a combat perspective it doesn't affect the gameplay experience though.
I don't see Steven changing a fundamental part of the game's revenue stream ... due to "gameplay experience" as it relates only to cosmetic appearance.
I don't think that is the point of this mmo is to be the best at combat skill, I am fairly sure there are many ways to progress, like just owning a tavern.
The most elaborate cosmetics (what are called "legendary") can only be earned in-game and can't be purchased from the shop.
Yes, it is absolutely too late to get rid of the cosmetic shop. It's childish to ask for it at this point. It's a key part of the financial model of the game, and they've already sold years' worth of exclusive cosmetics that can no longer be acquired by anyone else in any other manner. They can't reverse that without defrauding customers.
Give up, you're asking for something unreasonable and unfeasible.
This is such a closed minded perspective. Things can change and are changing all the time... From my understanding, the game isn't out yet. Also, they are currently changing things and adding things with feedback as, the game isn't out yet.
I don't see how it would defraud people to not do a cash shop on full release and make those exclusive items special for being a part of the early development funding, which is essentially what is being done with it. People are purchasing cosmetics for a game that isn't released yet.
I don't think it's childish to post a counter position on monetization, I think it's childish to try and shut it down when it doesn't affect you.
No one cares that you have a problem with the cosmetic shop. They aren't going to remove it. If you still have a problem with it, even after all the information people have given and explained, then idk what to tell you.. Don't play it, perhaps?
I mean, if people spending their own money on a cosmetic somehow "ruins" your experience, then you have other problems. Besides, it's been stated MANY times that in-game earned gear will be on par with, and in most cases surpass real money cosmetics in quality.
May you always lose fights and battles against people with bought cosmetics. You earned it.
I mean, if people spending their own money on a cosmetic somehow "ruins" your experience, then you have other problems.
The same thing could be said for pay to win. Would it bother you if there was pay to win? Why? How does other people achieving more than you affect your experience? They have the money to spend, so why not?
Actually, it doesn't really bother me that people pay for cosmetics unlike people being bothered by pay to win. I admire cool cosmetics and artist should be compensated.
You are missing my point completely and just want to add your two cents. It bothers me that the monetization of this mmo is being founded on burdening that specific part of the game instead of a higher monthly fee or a box price. Cash shops are bad for an mmo no matter what they offer.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I mean, if people spending their own money on a cosmetic somehow "ruins" your experience, then you have other problems.
The same thing could be said for pay to win. Would it bother you if there was pay to win? Why?
Because the game was founded from the beginning on the principle that there would never be pay to win. All of the people who pledged many thousands of dollars would be cheated.
You really don’t understand very much about this game, do you?
I agree completely. I don't think anyone commenting on this thread has any sort of idea what a true MMORPG experience should be. All of you beside OP seem to only see games as these virtual accomplishment factories, where daddy Steven can give you all hard earned points without P2W but fail to see how the cosmetic model only forces P2W one of the four player types of an MMO. Anyone who has a slight grasp on how an MMO should be designed knows that you need to meet the needs of all four types of players.
Adding a cosmetic shop puts an unfair social pressure on the social player type to spend their money to look the coolest while they're roleplaying or socializing in the game. You are all so worried about having P2W affect your favorite aspect that you're all quick to forget about the socializers point of view.
Let's imagine a similar situation from the achievers perspective. There is a shop but all you can buy are achievements in game that you can't otherwise complete without spending your real world money. To the Socializer this doesn't matter at all and has no effect on the game they're playing. The killer player type doesn't care because they only want to kill other players and the explorers don't care as long as they don't have to pay to explore new areas.
Let's imagine it again from the explorers perspective, the cosmetic shop is now the Lands shop. It doesn't add any new gameplay but it does add massive lands to explore but you can find all the same materials in the non-paid for area. It doesn't achieve anything for your account besides giving you new places to visit. The only ones who would really care in this situation are the players who love to just explore games.
Let's now imagine one more time from the perspective of the killer player type. The cosmetic shop is now the Kill Shop. You can buy tokens that allow you to kill players and that's the only gameplay change, it only affects players who like to engage in PVP. The socializers don't care because they're not killing players, the achievers don't care as long as they don't have to kill players to achieve something and the explorers really could care less, in fact they'd sing it's praises because it means they'll less likely to get killed while exploring.
We can see that in all of these situations we've unfairly placed the P2W model on 1/4th of our playerbase.
It's true it's too late to change it for this game which is why I don't think this is the pinnacle of MMOs by any means.
Not thinking of Socializers gameplay decisions and just saying we can't have better is very closed minded.
The excuse that a box price and subscription makes the barrier of entry to high is really a cop out. Ashes could charge $100 entry + $30 subscription fee and they'd be perfectly fine. The fact that people can't stomach a slight price increase to not have a cash shop baffles me. Subscriptions have been $15/mo since 2004 while everything else has gone up in price. $30/mo is not a lot of money for someone with a fulltime job. People pay $200/mo for cable ffs.
There are plenty of other ways to allow players to try the game without paying the box price or the subscription, you guys just eat up the corporate bullshit though. Like actually letting them just try the game, if it's actually good then it will have no problem hooking them in the first few levels. I hate that argument that you have to play an MMO for 100+ hours to start to see the fun. That's just another cop out for poor game design.
This place is going to be just like the WoW forums but instead of a bunch of brainwashed blizzard shills it will be a bunch of unaccomplished losers who worship Steven and see him as some sort of God.
If you've already spent money on this game, that doesn't even have a release date, then you're already lost. That's like paying for a meal you can't eat for 5 years because the chef needs help funding his dream to build a kitchen first and then he will make all the meals, he promises, and it will be like the best meal you've ever eaten in your entire life.
Because the game was founded from the beginning on the principle that there would never be pay to win. All of the people who pledged many thousands of dollars would be cheated.
You really don’t understand very much about this game, do you?
That doesn't answer my question at all... you seem confused.
I am asking why they don't like pay to win in general. I am trying to get some of you to look at a different perspective and see the similarities of why you don't like pay to win and others don't like pay for cosmetics.
Ever hear of Chronicles of Elyria? I understand that many of you are financially invested in a game that you can't even play yet, but that doesn't mean they will do everything they "promised" when you typed out your credit card number. A little childish to expect, don't you think?
You are like the 100th person to start a post like this. Check the forums.
Seems like it's important to many of their player base, before the game is even out yet, and should be taken more seriously.
I don't think that was their point. Let me put it another way for you: "There have been posts like this before, and the 'Sub only with optional cosmetics' method is still here.
Your post suggests you weren't aware that the main income was from a monthly fee. Hopefully now you know this, you feel better about the game.
I don't think that was their point. Let me put it another way for you: "There have been posts like this before, and the 'Sub only with optional cosmetics' method is still here.
Your post suggests you weren't aware that the main income was from a monthly fee. Hopefully now you know this, you feel better about the game.
I know that wasn't their point. I was making a point using their logic that if there have been hundreds of other posts like mine, AoC's potential customers are making a request hundreds of times and perhaps it should be considered regardless that the current method "is still here." The game isn't out yet by the way and there is always room to change a make better decisions.
As for what my post suggested, I was stating that a monthly fee is already something people are comfortable with and raising it more than the average in place of cash shops, something many people dislike, might be an idea to consider!
Like Franquito said:
The excuse that a box price and subscription makes the barrier of entry to high is really a cop out. Ashes could charge $100 entry + $30 subscription fee and they'd be perfectly fine. The fact that people can't stomach a slight price increase to not have a cash shop baffles me. Subscriptions have been $15/mo since 2004 while everything else has gone up in price. $30/mo is not a lot of money for someone with a fulltime job. People pay $200/mo for cable ffs.
Personally I think just a sub and a store for people to spend extra on cosmetics is fine. They’ll make much more money than if they do a box price and it’s optional.
Now you need to stop trying to say p2w wouldn’t be a bad thing vs skins.. it only shows how little you understand the games principles.
I will say I’m against the full body costumes though.. I don’t like the whole robe over heavy armour concept at all.
Now you need to stop trying to say p2w wouldn’t be a bad thing vs skins.. it only shows how little you understand the games principles.
I am saying they are similar in terms of how it affects different types of players not that it should actually replace the other. It seems very hard for people to have any sort of sympathy with this. AoC said there are many types of progression besides combat. That was a core principle.
So, if that's the case, let me give you an example. I should be able to be a baker as my gameplay. Now, it the "baker" costume costs $20 on the cash shop, my entire gameplay has a barrier to entry that no one else had. I think it's more logical and fair to make that needed revenue a box cost or higher monthly fees so everyone has a quality experience.
So, if that's the case, let me give you an example. I should be able to be a baker as my gameplay. Now, it the "baker" costume costs $20 on the cash shop, my entire gameplay has a barrier to entry that no one else had. I think it's more logical and fair to make that needed revenue a box cost or higher monthly fees so everyone has a quality experience.
So, you want to be a baker with a baker costume.
Without a cosmetic shop, you're not getting that costume at all, cos there's no real reason for them to bother creating something so niche. So, you've just paid extra (for the box cost) and still don't have the "entire gameplay" you want. Your barrier has just become waaaaaay bigger.
With a cosmetic shop, you've saved the money from not having to pay the box cost, and you've got the cash to spend on the costume. For those buying pre-release, you can just buy one less beer on a weekend for a few months, and you've saved the cash you need for the Pack. If having to have the baker's hat for your baker gameplay is that important to you, then you'll take the "-1 beer" hit.
let me give you an example. I should be able to be a baker as my gameplay. Now, it the "baker" costume costs $20 on the cash shop, my entire gameplay has a barrier to entry that no one else had.
I mean in your example you’re spending $20 on a costume vs $60 box price. That’s not a valid complaint imo.
It’s also not a barrier to entry. I’m going to take a wild guess and say you can pick up a white hat and an apron from a market place in game.
So, if that's the case, let me give you an example. I should be able to be a baker as my gameplay. Now, it the "baker" costume costs $20 on the cash shop, my entire gameplay has a barrier to entry that no one else had. I think it's more logical and fair to make that needed revenue a box cost or higher monthly fees so everyone has a quality experience.
No, your barrier to entry is just the same as everyone else's. You pay the subscription fee and gain access to teh game.
If you want something more specific from the game, such as a baker costume, that is an extra that you want. It isn't a requirement for entry to the game.
You do NOT get to decide what constitutes entry to the game. It is NOT an arbitrary thing.
If it were, I would then be able to complain that the barrier to entry for me is several dozen hours of effort in order to get leveled up to the level cap - which is where I consider the game to begin.
Haven't gone through all the comments but seeing there is still a back and forth, you must be very firmly against the Subscription/Cash Shop Model. It's perfectly fine for you to dislike cash shops, but I think that there isn't anything wrong with the Cash Shop as it will exist once the game goes life. It's a way for people to continue to support the developers while also investing into something that brings them enjoyment.
Now, if you had an issue exclusively with them locking the monthly cosmetics behind the high price barrier alongside the alpha/beta keys, then I would probably support you there. Alot of people here would be happy to spend a more nominal amount just to buy a cosmetic, alas is not the case, and I think that would be a reasonable opinion to have.
But I think like most games, people who wear cash shop items, aren't considered anymore noteworthy than in game items. If we assume as Steven has said, that in game earnable gear will look as good or better than cash shop items, then it just means that you might be more impressed by someone's gear with said in game difficult to attain armour/mount.
I don't think that takes away from your or anyone else's experience if someone decides to cash out on some glam.
The shop will have no pay to win, cosmetic only and that's perfectly fine for a cash shop. I probably won't bother but I know friends of mine do like to get a few cosmetics here and then because they like it, and we can have different opinions without it harming anyone's experience.
Without a cosmetic shop, you're not getting that costume at all, cos there's no real reason for them to bother creating something so niche. So, you've just paid extra (for the box cost) and still don't have the "entire gameplay" you want. Your barrier has just become waaaaaay bigger.
With a cosmetic shop, you've saved the money from not having to pay the box cost, and you've got the cash to spend on the costume. For those buying pre-release, you can just buy one less beer on a weekend for a few months, and you've saved the cash you need for the Pack. If having to have the baker's hat for your baker gameplay is that important to you, then you'll take the "-1 beer" hit.
It's not about the one costume. You are all being so narrow minded about this and you are wasting your time trying to change my mind.
I don't necessarily want to be a baker...
my point is, they have said themselves there are more ways to progress than combat! You can be a mount breeder, a tavern owner, a baker, etc...
If you are the 1/4 of the player base that are wanting to play that part of the game, it now has the burden of being monetized.
I'd rather pay $60 once than $20 multiple times to get the furniture for the shop, the different costumes, etc, etc, etc.
They were trying to appeal to people who enjoy social parts of mmo's with their principles of making many ways of progression and not the typical xp to level 100 and done. If you understood mmo's, you'd know there are multiple aspects of the game and multiple types of players that need to be appealed to for it to be successful and not another dead end like the rest of them.
If it were, I would then be able to complain that the barrier to entry for me is several dozen hours of effort in order to get leveled up to the level cap - which is where I consider the game to begin.
No one is trying to change your mind as far as I'm aware. Just telling you that the majority don't care about your dislike for a cosmetic shop, and that it's been discussed to death. Intrepid has chosen the cosmetic shop and monthly sub and it's not going to change. End of discussion.
Nah. People can still have different ideas, and share them. If it was truly the end of the discussion, none of you would have bothered posting on here at all.
Hello friends, a quick clarification on the shop cosmetics.
There will not be recolors or material swaps on the monthly cosmetics as a means to populate additional achievements in game by player characters. There will however be variants of the cosmetics for NPC populations including quest-givers, guards, merchants and creatures. Additionally, from an armor standpoint, we cut armor sets up into many different pieces. These pieces can sometimes be used as part of other sets, that may include helmets, wrists, gloves etc. So while you will not see an achievable white version of the corvid castigator set in the game for example, you may see its shoulder piece used in another set, or its leggings, or wrist piece used in another set (not every piece as to form the whole set, but perhaps a couple pieces). This would be difficult to notice at first glance, due to the material, texture and color variation used, but this modular approach to content creation makes achieving a wide variety of looks achievable for an MMORPG of our size.
With that being said however, the intent behind my approach to these cosmetics, as well as the cosmetics that will be achievable in the game, is to provide a richer experience of visual diversity than we are typically accustomed to in the MMORPGs we have played in the past. There will be legendary cosmetics that are ONLY achievable in game and players can know wont be offered in some cosmetic shop in the future undermining their accomplishment. As well as for the more casual players time exclusive purchasable cosmetics from the marketplace, that players who purchase these can rest assured they won't be available again in some sale by the company in the future.
It's important to remember, Ashes is a NO-BOX COST subscription only game, with an optional cosmetic marketplace. This achieves a few things from a monetization model. Having a lower barrier to entry for players to try the game when they don't have to fork out $60 for the box price is good, our box price is 0$. This also places an emphasis on the game's retention and our continual updates and content creation to keep players playing and staying subscribed (a put your money where your mouth is sort of philosophy for us as a company). It also means players don't have to spend $60 everytime there is an expansion.
Is there an answer that satisfies everyone? Nope. And that's ok. We are open and transparent with our philosophies and business model. You know what you are getting with Ashes and to me, given my experiences in other games, it is a nice breath of fresh air.
This is a quote from Steven who for all intensive purposes is the creative director and behind many of the concepts of this game. I have bolded the important part:
He gives his reasoning which in a nutshell is low barrier to entry and taking money out of expansions. This is his choice. He also makes a point to say that this is his philosophy and that it won't be for everyone.
So you're not wrong for opening a discussion on this, but having a refute for every statement when really, you're brushing against Steven's own ideals isn't really helping your case when the majority are perfectly happy with the current model.
At one point you used the fact that if 100s of people disliked something then it might be reconsidered. I'd get that but in the forums I haven't seen that volume of post with people who have issues with a Non-P2W cash shop.
If you had in some cases been shown to be partial to other people's opinion the discussion might have been a bit healthier but it comes across as toxic (whether you intend to or not) if all you can do is disagree without being somewhat open minded.
The cosmetics shop is probably the most common complaint against Ashes. And it certainly alienates a lot of the players for whom visual progression is highly important. This game simply might not attract that player base.
It's a common topic here, mostly by newer players coming in, and the threads tend to end up the same way. A LOT of people here don't see an issue with it, and some clearly can't even comprehend the perspective of a player that values visual progression so much that they have a real problem with it.
I think a lot of the dismissive or less-than-friendly posts in this and other similar threads are the result of the frequency of the topic and people unable to understand the importance of it for others. They think it's a silly thing to worry about, and they might have a hard time empathizing, so the tone gets rougher.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
From a combat perspective it doesn't affect the gameplay experience though.
I don't see Steven changing a fundamental part of the game's revenue stream ... due to "gameplay experience" as it relates only to cosmetic appearance.
I don't think that is the point of this mmo is to be the best at combat skill, I am fairly sure there are many ways to progress, like just owning a tavern.
The core of this game is PvP and group content. So yes, there are other options to play the game as a crafter etc, but it will all ultimately depend on combat. So long as combat isn't affecting by cosmetics, neither will anything else.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
t’s clear you want to play a game that isn’t this one.
Eh, I will wait until it's released to make that judgement. Especially before I'd invest thousands into a fully funded game based on "promises."
That is a very rational approach and I advise people all the time that they should do that.
You really don’t know what the game will be like before it’s released. We know what we’re supposed to have, and we know what they’ve done so far, but nothing is a 100% guarantee. Any investment now is a risk. Waiting is completely sensible.
@Iridianny The cosmetic shop exists to support the development process. Period.
I see people trying to shut it down the same way I see people that are trying to slow down the development of the game. I start to suspect you work for Amazon or something.
That is a possible explanation for the hate you are getting.
@Iridianny The cosmetic shop exists to support the development process. Period.
I see people trying to shut it down the same way I see people that are trying to slow down the development of the game. I start to suspect you work for Amazon or something.
That is a possible explanation for the hate you are getting.
Is a cash shop during the development period as a form of reward for investment fine? Yes. I am talking about it for the future of the game after it's released. Also, the game was fully funded.
Do you expect everything beyond that point to be just Steven forking out truckloads of money to fund the game forever?
There has to be a revenue stream. Adding and upping the box cost will limit the amount of players you get. If you further up the sub cost, you also won't retain them.
Then then game is dead. But congratulations, you didn't get a cash shop. You can stand proud next to the servers once they shut them down.
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There are billions of ppl on this planet and unless you live in a nice, small town, you dont matter to anyone beyond your family and friends. Consumers of video games have 0 power. AoC wont die because of a cosmetic boycott.
And I was wrong about the full on cosmetics. But there are discussions about nameplate icons that show what armor the target uses, just like there are class icons in eso. Immedietly recognized class icons.
So it's not a gameplay issue.
I am against purchasable full body costumes, full armor skin sets and weapon skins but I would allow people to buy single piece cosmetics for armors. I don't mind if some one wants to use a little money to buy some little detailing for their armors. The main focus must be still kept in game achievable items.
Yes, it is absolutely too late to get rid of the cosmetic shop. It's childish to ask for it at this point. It's a key part of the financial model of the game, and they've already sold years' worth of exclusive cosmetics that can no longer be acquired by anyone else in any other manner. They can't reverse that without defrauding customers.
Give up, you're asking for something unreasonable and unfeasible.
I don't think that is the point of this mmo is to be the best at combat skill, I am fairly sure there are many ways to progress, like just owning a tavern.
This is such a closed minded perspective. Things can change and are changing all the time... From my understanding, the game isn't out yet. Also, they are currently changing things and adding things with feedback as, the game isn't out yet.
I don't see how it would defraud people to not do a cash shop on full release and make those exclusive items special for being a part of the early development funding, which is essentially what is being done with it. People are purchasing cosmetics for a game that isn't released yet.
I don't think it's childish to post a counter position on monetization, I think it's childish to try and shut it down when it doesn't affect you.
I mean, if people spending their own money on a cosmetic somehow "ruins" your experience, then you have other problems. Besides, it's been stated MANY times that in-game earned gear will be on par with, and in most cases surpass real money cosmetics in quality.
May you always lose fights and battles against people with bought cosmetics. You earned it.
The same thing could be said for pay to win. Would it bother you if there was pay to win? Why? How does other people achieving more than you affect your experience? They have the money to spend, so why not?
Actually, it doesn't really bother me that people pay for cosmetics unlike people being bothered by pay to win. I admire cool cosmetics and artist should be compensated.
You are missing my point completely and just want to add your two cents. It bothers me that the monetization of this mmo is being founded on burdening that specific part of the game instead of a higher monthly fee or a box price. Cash shops are bad for an mmo no matter what they offer.
Because the game was founded from the beginning on the principle that there would never be pay to win. All of the people who pledged many thousands of dollars would be cheated.
You really don’t understand very much about this game, do you?
Adding a cosmetic shop puts an unfair social pressure on the social player type to spend their money to look the coolest while they're roleplaying or socializing in the game. You are all so worried about having P2W affect your favorite aspect that you're all quick to forget about the socializers point of view.
Let's imagine a similar situation from the achievers perspective. There is a shop but all you can buy are achievements in game that you can't otherwise complete without spending your real world money. To the Socializer this doesn't matter at all and has no effect on the game they're playing. The killer player type doesn't care because they only want to kill other players and the explorers don't care as long as they don't have to pay to explore new areas.
Let's imagine it again from the explorers perspective, the cosmetic shop is now the Lands shop. It doesn't add any new gameplay but it does add massive lands to explore but you can find all the same materials in the non-paid for area. It doesn't achieve anything for your account besides giving you new places to visit. The only ones who would really care in this situation are the players who love to just explore games.
Let's now imagine one more time from the perspective of the killer player type. The cosmetic shop is now the Kill Shop. You can buy tokens that allow you to kill players and that's the only gameplay change, it only affects players who like to engage in PVP. The socializers don't care because they're not killing players, the achievers don't care as long as they don't have to kill players to achieve something and the explorers really could care less, in fact they'd sing it's praises because it means they'll less likely to get killed while exploring.
We can see that in all of these situations we've unfairly placed the P2W model on 1/4th of our playerbase.
It's true it's too late to change it for this game which is why I don't think this is the pinnacle of MMOs by any means.
Not thinking of Socializers gameplay decisions and just saying we can't have better is very closed minded.
The excuse that a box price and subscription makes the barrier of entry to high is really a cop out. Ashes could charge $100 entry + $30 subscription fee and they'd be perfectly fine. The fact that people can't stomach a slight price increase to not have a cash shop baffles me. Subscriptions have been $15/mo since 2004 while everything else has gone up in price. $30/mo is not a lot of money for someone with a fulltime job. People pay $200/mo for cable ffs.
There are plenty of other ways to allow players to try the game without paying the box price or the subscription, you guys just eat up the corporate bullshit though. Like actually letting them just try the game, if it's actually good then it will have no problem hooking them in the first few levels. I hate that argument that you have to play an MMO for 100+ hours to start to see the fun. That's just another cop out for poor game design.
This place is going to be just like the WoW forums but instead of a bunch of brainwashed blizzard shills it will be a bunch of unaccomplished losers who worship Steven and see him as some sort of God.
If you've already spent money on this game, that doesn't even have a release date, then you're already lost. That's like paying for a meal you can't eat for 5 years because the chef needs help funding his dream to build a kitchen first and then he will make all the meals, he promises, and it will be like the best meal you've ever eaten in your entire life.
That doesn't answer my question at all... you seem confused.
I am asking why they don't like pay to win in general. I am trying to get some of you to look at a different perspective and see the similarities of why you don't like pay to win and others don't like pay for cosmetics.
Ever hear of Chronicles of Elyria? I understand that many of you are financially invested in a game that you can't even play yet, but that doesn't mean they will do everything they "promised" when you typed out your credit card number. A little childish to expect, don't you think?
I don't think that was their point. Let me put it another way for you: "There have been posts like this before, and the 'Sub only with optional cosmetics' method is still here.
Your post suggests you weren't aware that the main income was from a monthly fee. Hopefully now you know this, you feel better about the game.
I know that wasn't their point. I was making a point using their logic that if there have been hundreds of other posts like mine, AoC's potential customers are making a request hundreds of times and perhaps it should be considered regardless that the current method "is still here." The game isn't out yet by the way and there is always room to change a make better decisions.
As for what my post suggested, I was stating that a monthly fee is already something people are comfortable with and raising it more than the average in place of cash shops, something many people dislike, might be an idea to consider!
Like Franquito said:
Now you need to stop trying to say p2w wouldn’t be a bad thing vs skins.. it only shows how little you understand the games principles.
I will say I’m against the full body costumes though.. I don’t like the whole robe over heavy armour concept at all.
I am saying they are similar in terms of how it affects different types of players not that it should actually replace the other. It seems very hard for people to have any sort of sympathy with this. AoC said there are many types of progression besides combat. That was a core principle.
So, if that's the case, let me give you an example. I should be able to be a baker as my gameplay. Now, it the "baker" costume costs $20 on the cash shop, my entire gameplay has a barrier to entry that no one else had. I think it's more logical and fair to make that needed revenue a box cost or higher monthly fees so everyone has a quality experience.
So, you want to be a baker with a baker costume.
Without a cosmetic shop, you're not getting that costume at all, cos there's no real reason for them to bother creating something so niche. So, you've just paid extra (for the box cost) and still don't have the "entire gameplay" you want. Your barrier has just become waaaaaay bigger.
With a cosmetic shop, you've saved the money from not having to pay the box cost, and you've got the cash to spend on the costume. For those buying pre-release, you can just buy one less beer on a weekend for a few months, and you've saved the cash you need for the Pack. If having to have the baker's hat for your baker gameplay is that important to you, then you'll take the "-1 beer" hit.
I mean in your example you’re spending $20 on a costume vs $60 box price. That’s not a valid complaint imo.
It’s also not a barrier to entry. I’m going to take a wild guess and say you can pick up a white hat and an apron from a market place in game.
No, your barrier to entry is just the same as everyone else's. You pay the subscription fee and gain access to teh game.
If you want something more specific from the game, such as a baker costume, that is an extra that you want. It isn't a requirement for entry to the game.
You do NOT get to decide what constitutes entry to the game. It is NOT an arbitrary thing.
If it were, I would then be able to complain that the barrier to entry for me is several dozen hours of effort in order to get leveled up to the level cap - which is where I consider the game to begin.
Stop your whining.
Now, if you had an issue exclusively with them locking the monthly cosmetics behind the high price barrier alongside the alpha/beta keys, then I would probably support you there. Alot of people here would be happy to spend a more nominal amount just to buy a cosmetic, alas is not the case, and I think that would be a reasonable opinion to have.
But I think like most games, people who wear cash shop items, aren't considered anymore noteworthy than in game items. If we assume as Steven has said, that in game earnable gear will look as good or better than cash shop items, then it just means that you might be more impressed by someone's gear with said in game difficult to attain armour/mount.
I don't think that takes away from your or anyone else's experience if someone decides to cash out on some glam.
The shop will have no pay to win, cosmetic only and that's perfectly fine for a cash shop. I probably won't bother but I know friends of mine do like to get a few cosmetics here and then because they like it, and we can have different opinions without it harming anyone's experience.
It's not about the one costume. You are all being so narrow minded about this and you are wasting your time trying to change my mind.
I don't necessarily want to be a baker...
my point is, they have said themselves there are more ways to progress than combat! You can be a mount breeder, a tavern owner, a baker, etc...
If you are the 1/4 of the player base that are wanting to play that part of the game, it now has the burden of being monetized.
I'd rather pay $60 once than $20 multiple times to get the furniture for the shop, the different costumes, etc, etc, etc.
They were trying to appeal to people who enjoy social parts of mmo's with their principles of making many ways of progression and not the typical xp to level 100 and done. If you understood mmo's, you'd know there are multiple aspects of the game and multiple types of players that need to be appealed to for it to be successful and not another dead end like the rest of them.
In response:
Nah. People can still have different ideas, and share them. If it was truly the end of the discussion, none of you would have bothered posting on here at all.
This is a quote from Steven who for all intensive purposes is the creative director and behind many of the concepts of this game. I have bolded the important part:
He gives his reasoning which in a nutshell is low barrier to entry and taking money out of expansions. This is his choice. He also makes a point to say that this is his philosophy and that it won't be for everyone.
So you're not wrong for opening a discussion on this, but having a refute for every statement when really, you're brushing against Steven's own ideals isn't really helping your case when the majority are perfectly happy with the current model.
At one point you used the fact that if 100s of people disliked something then it might be reconsidered. I'd get that but in the forums I haven't seen that volume of post with people who have issues with a Non-P2W cash shop.
If you had in some cases been shown to be partial to other people's opinion the discussion might have been a bit healthier but it comes across as toxic (whether you intend to or not) if all you can do is disagree without being somewhat open minded.
It's a common topic here, mostly by newer players coming in, and the threads tend to end up the same way. A LOT of people here don't see an issue with it, and some clearly can't even comprehend the perspective of a player that values visual progression so much that they have a real problem with it.
I think a lot of the dismissive or less-than-friendly posts in this and other similar threads are the result of the frequency of the topic and people unable to understand the importance of it for others. They think it's a silly thing to worry about, and they might have a hard time empathizing, so the tone gets rougher.
It’s clear you want to play a game that isn’t this one. I don’t think we’re the ones wasting our time.
You’ve said absolutely nothing new or useful here. Your posts are “I want”. You’re never going to get what you want.
It’s not being narrow-minded up tell you how things are. Facts don’t care about your feelings.
Eh, I will wait until it's released to make that judgement. Especially before I'd invest thousands into a fully funded game based on "promises."
The core of this game is PvP and group content. So yes, there are other options to play the game as a crafter etc, but it will all ultimately depend on combat. So long as combat isn't affecting by cosmetics, neither will anything else.
That is a very rational approach and I advise people all the time that they should do that.
You really don’t know what the game will be like before it’s released. We know what we’re supposed to have, and we know what they’ve done so far, but nothing is a 100% guarantee. Any investment now is a risk. Waiting is completely sensible.
I see people trying to shut it down the same way I see people that are trying to slow down the development of the game. I start to suspect you work for Amazon or something.
That is a possible explanation for the hate you are getting.
Is a cash shop during the development period as a form of reward for investment fine? Yes. I am talking about it for the future of the game after it's released. Also, the game was fully funded.
Fully funded to allow the game to be released.
Do you expect everything beyond that point to be just Steven forking out truckloads of money to fund the game forever?
There has to be a revenue stream. Adding and upping the box cost will limit the amount of players you get. If you further up the sub cost, you also won't retain them.
Then then game is dead. But congratulations, you didn't get a cash shop. You can stand proud next to the servers once they shut them down.