Cosmetic Shop is P2W

Mag7spy · August 2022

Azherae wrote: »

show previous quotes

Mag7spy wrote: »

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.

I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.

If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.

I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.

I read what you said the first time and you are speaking from a lack of experience in what a rper wants, that example is not good and naïve at its best. There is going to be plenty of armor to obtain in game, as a rper you need to SHOW rp skill and dressing up is not a rp skill. Unless you have done serious rp you are not going to understand this and that is why you are using a bad example. There will be plenty of people that will dress up as a knight in their style of outfit.

You also fail to grasp that you need a costume to be a knight, you simply obtain the gear in the game and roleplay your role, that is what they are looking for. Rp is very subjective there will always be one person that can rp better as they play their character that is not decided by a outfit. That isn't even rp logic you are effectively saying a person dressed in armour or whatever gear they like and choose is not a knight, that is NOT how rp works.

You don't know how to engage because your mind set is trying to win this argument because you have thought of something and you will refuse to back down from the scenario you made in your head. There is a reason why you could only create one and again its not how rp works on winning or losing. Rpers are always happy to have more people and grow their community, not whatever you are thinking that they are exclusive based on a damn outfit.

Iridianny · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

@Asgerr

Asgerr · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asgerr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...

OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…

What does that post accomplish in your mind?

It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…

Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday... But i will say, P2W means you are buying something that gives you great advantage over other's who's not paying. Buying cosmetics that doesn't affect gameplay in any way is not P2W. You may want to look up the definition of what P2W is. You seem very lost here. The game is also not out, so you're just on here making assumptions and lies...

Cosmetics affect gameplay for Roleplayers.

You can argue that 'RolePlaying isn't real gameplay' if you like.

Considering Steven is against having an RP server altogether, then perhaps this just isn't the game for RPing in the way these people intend it.

How? He is against having a rp server because he wants rp to be integrated into every single server… and sorry, but role playing is what you are doing always, whenever you are playing a role playing game, no matter “how” you role play it.

Then if I'm also roleplaying and the visuals of a costume bought in a cosmetic store don't bother me, explain to me why I'm not as valuable in my acceptance of the cosemtics?

Azherae · August 2022

Asgerr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Azherae wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

Point by point:

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one.

The game doesn't necessarily cater to me either. I have lots of different preferences for content and mechanics in MMOs, however I find the idea of what Intrepid is doing interesting, and I'm willing to give it a try, even if I may end up having a miserable experience in some aspects.

The thing is, I have no desires regarding the looks and appearances of my or other characters. Everyone is free to look how they like. It won't impede me from progressing in the game, or slow my progress in any way. Therefore cosmetic in the store is not a P2W issue.

And since a majority seem to agree with that being the case, the right of majority over one person whining that they won't be able to look the coolest (which, again, is debatable considering what visual progression is in the game) is absolutely king.

If Iridianny had made the case that others have, wherein a cosmetic could hinder some forms of PvP (whcih has been dealt with by Steven's own reassurances), then maybe yeah, I could see the case. But that's not their argument. They only care about how they look (or how others look in relation to them).

So yeah. It's all very selfish.

Why does a costume matter for PvP though? All it does is maybe offer a small advantage to the player who has it?

(From the RolePlayer perspective): What does it matter if you lose a few more fights? That doesn't affect your progression in Roleplaying if you're good enough at it, so it has minimal effect on gameplay.

You having no desire for something does not make it unimportant, and while majority usually rules, 'the uncaring majority' often needs to be curtailed.

Some have claimed that in PvP having a costume could hinder threat identification.

So let's say a level 5 player is prancing about with a massive armor set and a glowing sword. One might assume: Oh they're strong, or have these type of stats etc. Whereas in reality maybe they have a shirt and a stick. Which could incur into issues with Corruption.
Or the other way around.

However, as I note, Steven already explained that they have an idea to show a buff on the character nameplate, indicating what kind of armor they are actually wearing (under the costume).

Note that a costume covers the entirety of the gear. It's not like transmog, where you can edit your outfit piece by piece.

So basically what you're saying is: since the majority doesn't care or is OK with it, we should instead have a tyranny of one type of player who strongly cares about one aspect of the game.

Sounds doubly selfish to me, my friend. Not doing much to dissuade me.

It seems that you, too, tend to take the simpler interpretation of what is being said.

Your assumptions about what I am saying are wrong, but I honestly don't know how to influence them. I can only advise Iridianny to ignore your perspective because your accusation of selfishness appears to be baseless or rooted too deeply in your own perceptions to be a situation where you understand what is being said even from the perspective of the other person but still disagree with it.

Iridianny · August 2022

@Asgerr you can accept them, that doesn’t mean they aren’t pay to win.

Azherae · August 2022

Mag7spy wrote: »

show previous quotes

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.

I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.

If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.

I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.

I read what you said the first time and you are speaking from a lack of experience in what a rper wants, that example is not good and naïve at its best. There is going to be plenty of armor to obtain in game, as a rper you need to SHOW rp skill and dressing up is not a rp skill. Unless you have done serious rp you are not going to understand this and that is why you are using a bad example. There will be plenty of people that will dress up as a knight in their style of outfit.

You also fail to grasp that you need a costume to be a knight, you simply obtain the gear in the game and roleplay your role, that is what they are looking for. Rp is very subjective there will always be one person that can rp better as they play their character that is not decided by a outfit. That isn't even rp logic you are effectively saying a person dressed in armour or whatever gear they like and choose is not a knight, that is NOT how rp works.

You don't know how to engage because your mind set is trying to win this argument because you have thought of something and you will refuse to back down from the scenario you made in your head. There is a reason why you could only create one and again its not how rp works on winning or losing. Rpers are always happy to have more people and grow their community, not whatever you are thinking that they are exclusive based on a damn outfit.

Yes yes, fine, your usual style of argument.

"I don't know what I'm talking about because my experience doesn't match yours."

Carry on.

Asgerr · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

* Points to the entire thread *

Dygz · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…

They don’t want you to believe cosmetics are a flat Earth, either.

Asgerr · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

@Asgerr you can accept them, that doesn’t mean they aren’t pay to win.

How does a costume affect your RP skills?

How does a purchased cosmetic aid you in plotting, scheming, making friends and alliances, have duels, feuds and arguments? What edge is given to you? Why is someone suddenly winning for wearing a cosmetic?

Or is RP for you just about playing dress up and seeing who looks nicer?

Iridianny · August 2022

Asgerr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

* Points to the entire thread *

Nice cop out. Surely you can find one instance to give as an example in this entire thread where I made that claim that “the game should do what I prefer”? Are you just pulling accusations out of you ass based on how my post made you feel?

Iridianny · August 2022

Asgerr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

@Asgerr you can accept them, that doesn’t mean they aren’t pay to win.

How does a costume affect your RP skills?

How does a purchased cosmetic aid you in plotting, scheming, making friends and alliances, have duels, feuds and arguments? What edge is given to you? Why is someone suddenly winning for wearing a cosmetic?

Or is RP for you just about playing dress up and seeing who looks nicer?

Ever heard of immersion?

Mag7spy · August 2022

Azherae wrote: »

show previous quotes

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.

I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.

If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.

I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.

I read what you said the first time and you are speaking from a lack of experience in what a rper wants, that example is not good and naïve at its best. There is going to be plenty of armor to obtain in game, as a rper you need to SHOW rp skill and dressing up is not a rp skill. Unless you have done serious rp you are not going to understand this and that is why you are using a bad example. There will be plenty of people that will dress up as a knight in their style of outfit.

You also fail to grasp that you need a costume to be a knight, you simply obtain the gear in the game and roleplay your role, that is what they are looking for. Rp is very subjective there will always be one person that can rp better as they play their character that is not decided by a outfit. That isn't even rp logic you are effectively saying a person dressed in armour or whatever gear they like and choose is not a knight, that is NOT how rp works.

You don't know how to engage because your mind set is trying to win this argument because you have thought of something and you will refuse to back down from the scenario you made in your head. There is a reason why you could only create one and again its not how rp works on winning or losing. Rpers are always happy to have more people and grow their community, not whatever you are thinking that they are exclusive based on a damn outfit.

Yes yes, fine, your usual style of argument.

"I don't know what I'm talking about because my experience doesn't match yours."

Carry on.

Funny you should say that

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Dressing up in AoC is not p2w, rping isn't a win and lose condition its a cooptative experience between people when you are solely talking about rp and not battles. I don't know why you are choose to defend the worst take, if you tried to go with p4c that would be at least reasonable.

Asgerr · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

@Asgerr you can accept them, that doesn’t mean they aren’t pay to win.

How does a costume affect your RP skills?

How does a purchased cosmetic aid you in plotting, scheming, making friends and alliances, have duels, feuds and arguments? What edge is given to you? Why is someone suddenly winning for wearing a cosmetic?

Or is RP for you just about playing dress up and seeing who looks nicer?

Ever heard of immersion?

So no edge provided. Got it. Only a matter of immersion. Thus not P2W.

Shame that has not been your argument until just now. If you wanna talk cop-outs that's a bigger one.

Iridianny wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

* Points to the entire thread *

Nice cop out. Surely you can find one instance to give as an example in this entire thread where I made that claim that “the game should do what I prefer”? Are you just pulling accusations out of you ass based on how my post made you feel?

Oh you mean that you made this thread just to kill time, knowing that nothing would change about the cosmetic store? And that you already knew that you were twisting definitions? So this was all some colossal waste of time? I mean, after all, you're saying you did not want the game to do what you think is best.

Unknown · August 2022

This content has been removed.

Azherae · August 2022

Mag7spy wrote: »

show previous quotes

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.

I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.

If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.

I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.

I read what you said the first time and you are speaking from a lack of experience in what a rper wants, that example is not good and naïve at its best. There is going to be plenty of armor to obtain in game, as a rper you need to SHOW rp skill and dressing up is not a rp skill. Unless you have done serious rp you are not going to understand this and that is why you are using a bad example. There will be plenty of people that will dress up as a knight in their style of outfit.

You also fail to grasp that you need a costume to be a knight, you simply obtain the gear in the game and roleplay your role, that is what they are looking for. Rp is very subjective there will always be one person that can rp better as they play their character that is not decided by a outfit. That isn't even rp logic you are effectively saying a person dressed in armour or whatever gear they like and choose is not a knight, that is NOT how rp works.

You don't know how to engage because your mind set is trying to win this argument because you have thought of something and you will refuse to back down from the scenario you made in your head. There is a reason why you could only create one and again its not how rp works on winning or losing. Rpers are always happy to have more people and grow their community, not whatever you are thinking that they are exclusive based on a damn outfit.

Yes yes, fine, your usual style of argument.

"I don't know what I'm talking about because my experience doesn't match yours."

Carry on.

Funny you should say that
show previous quotes

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Dressing up in AoC is not p2w, rping isn't a win and lose condition its a cooptative experience between people when you are solely talking about rp and not battles. I don't know why you are choose to defend the worst take, if you tried to go with p4c that would be at least reasonable.

If you prefer to call it that, sure. I don't really agree with Iridianny's definitions anyway.

If you want to argue over 'common definitions of P2W among MMO players of the last 10 years', you and I are on the same side. If we were going to discuss 'what RP is about and what RPers do', then I would be opposed.

But in the case of both you and Asgerr, I'm not actually trying to 'make a point' or 'win an argument', I was just doing my usual 'check of if you were coming from a place of attempting to understand' or not, to determine if to continue.

Sometimes people respond positively when one shows that one isn't just trying to be argumentative. Sometimes they don't.

Asgerr · August 2022

Natasha wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

Excellent, then you agree your own points are trash and everyone here along with the devs can ignore your thread.

CRISIS AVERTED PEOPLE.

These iridianny shit takes that try to emotionally change established definition of gaming vernacular don't matter.

Just leave it, let's go!

Iridianny · August 2022

Natasha wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

Excellent, then you agree your own points are trash and everyone here along with the devs can ignore your thread.

CRISIS AVERTED PEOPLE.

These iridianny shit takes that try to emotionally change established definition of gaming vernacular don't matter.

Just leave it, let's go!

Oh look, she’s back… yay… no one called you this time though, weird. Good job offering another shit posting meme and nothing beneficial to the conversation as usual. Air head, huh?

Iridianny · August 2022

Asgerr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

@Asgerr you can accept them, that doesn’t mean they aren’t pay to win.

How does a costume affect your RP skills?

How does a purchased cosmetic aid you in plotting, scheming, making friends and alliances, have duels, feuds and arguments? What edge is given to you? Why is someone suddenly winning for wearing a cosmetic?

Or is RP for you just about playing dress up and seeing who looks nicer?

Ever heard of immersion?

So no edge provided. Got it. Only a matter of immersion. Thus not P2W.

Shame that has not been your argument until just now. If you wanna talk cop-outs that's a bigger one.
show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

* Points to the entire thread *

Nice cop out. Surely you can find one instance to give as an example in this entire thread where I made that claim that “the game should do what I prefer”? Are you just pulling accusations out of you ass based on how my post made you feel?

Oh you mean that you made this thread just to kill time, knowing that nothing would change about the cosmetic store? And that you already knew that you were twisting definitions? So this was all some colossal waste of time? I mean, after all, you're saying you did not want the game to do what you think is best.

Haha you can’t find anything to back your accusation so you are just making more XD

Mag7spy · August 2022

Azherae wrote: »

show previous quotes

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.

I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.

If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.

I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.

I read what you said the first time and you are speaking from a lack of experience in what a rper wants, that example is not good and naïve at its best. There is going to be plenty of armor to obtain in game, as a rper you need to SHOW rp skill and dressing up is not a rp skill. Unless you have done serious rp you are not going to understand this and that is why you are using a bad example. There will be plenty of people that will dress up as a knight in their style of outfit.

You also fail to grasp that you need a costume to be a knight, you simply obtain the gear in the game and roleplay your role, that is what they are looking for. Rp is very subjective there will always be one person that can rp better as they play their character that is not decided by a outfit. That isn't even rp logic you are effectively saying a person dressed in armour or whatever gear they like and choose is not a knight, that is NOT how rp works.

You don't know how to engage because your mind set is trying to win this argument because you have thought of something and you will refuse to back down from the scenario you made in your head. There is a reason why you could only create one and again its not how rp works on winning or losing. Rpers are always happy to have more people and grow their community, not whatever you are thinking that they are exclusive based on a damn outfit.

Yes yes, fine, your usual style of argument.

"I don't know what I'm talking about because my experience doesn't match yours."

Carry on.

Funny you should say that

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Dressing up in AoC is not p2w, rping isn't a win and lose condition its a cooptative experience between people when you are solely talking about rp and not battles. I don't know why you are choose to defend the worst take, if you tried to go with p4c that would be at least reasonable.

If you prefer to call it that, sure. I don't really agree with Iridianny's definitions anyway.

If you want to argue over 'common definitions of P2W among MMO players of the last 10 years', you and I are on the same side. If we were going to discuss 'what RP is about and what RPers do', then I would be opposed.

But in the case of both you and Asgerr, I'm not actually trying to 'make a point' or 'win an argument', I was just doing my usual 'check of if you were coming from a place of attempting to understand' or not, to determine if to continue.

Sometimes people respond positively when one shows that one isn't just trying to be argumentative. Sometimes they don't.

Then we can let this thread die, unless the same people decide to make a 5th thread that the shop is p2w.

Iridianny · August 2022

Mag7spy wrote: »

show previous quotes

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.

I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.

If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.

I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.

I read what you said the first time and you are speaking from a lack of experience in what a rper wants, that example is not good and naïve at its best. There is going to be plenty of armor to obtain in game, as a rper you need to SHOW rp skill and dressing up is not a rp skill. Unless you have done serious rp you are not going to understand this and that is why you are using a bad example. There will be plenty of people that will dress up as a knight in their style of outfit.

You also fail to grasp that you need a costume to be a knight, you simply obtain the gear in the game and roleplay your role, that is what they are looking for. Rp is very subjective there will always be one person that can rp better as they play their character that is not decided by a outfit. That isn't even rp logic you are effectively saying a person dressed in armour or whatever gear they like and choose is not a knight, that is NOT how rp works.

You don't know how to engage because your mind set is trying to win this argument because you have thought of something and you will refuse to back down from the scenario you made in your head. There is a reason why you could only create one and again its not how rp works on winning or losing. Rpers are always happy to have more people and grow their community, not whatever you are thinking that they are exclusive based on a damn outfit.

Yes yes, fine, your usual style of argument.

"I don't know what I'm talking about because my experience doesn't match yours."

Carry on.

Funny you should say that

Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.

Dressing up in AoC is not p2w, rping isn't a win and lose condition its a cooptative experience between people when you are solely talking about rp and not battles. I don't know why you are choose to defend the worst take, if you tried to go with p4c that would be at least reasonable.

If you prefer to call it that, sure. I don't really agree with Iridianny's definitions anyway.

If you want to argue over 'common definitions of P2W among MMO players of the last 10 years', you and I are on the same side. If we were going to discuss 'what RP is about and what RPers do', then I would be opposed.

But in the case of both you and Asgerr, I'm not actually trying to 'make a point' or 'win an argument', I was just doing my usual 'check of if you were coming from a place of attempting to understand' or not, to determine if to continue.

Sometimes people respond positively when one shows that one isn't just trying to be argumentative. Sometimes they don't.

Then we can let this thread die, unless the same people decide to make a 5th thread that the shop is p2w.

“Let the thread die” as he makes another post on the thread. *claps* it was a good attempt, but try again buddy.

Asgerr · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

show previous quotes

Natasha wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

Excellent, then you agree your own points are trash and everyone here along with the devs can ignore your thread.

CRISIS AVERTED PEOPLE.

These iridianny shit takes that try to emotionally change established definition of gaming vernacular don't matter.

Just leave it, let's go!

Oh look, she’s back… yay… no one called you this time though, weird. Good job offering another shit posting meme and nothing beneficial to the conversation as usual. Air head, huh?

Almost like this is.... a Public Forum where everyone is free to say what they want?

Are we now trying to curb free speech too? Damn. That point I made about Tyranny of the minority is growing even more accurate.

Iridianny wrote: »

show previous quotes

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

@Asgerr you can accept them, that doesn’t mean they aren’t pay to win.

How does a costume affect your RP skills?

How does a purchased cosmetic aid you in plotting, scheming, making friends and alliances, have duels, feuds and arguments? What edge is given to you? Why is someone suddenly winning for wearing a cosmetic?

Or is RP for you just about playing dress up and seeing who looks nicer?

Ever heard of immersion?

So no edge provided. Got it. Only a matter of immersion. Thus not P2W.

Shame that has not been your argument until just now. If you wanna talk cop-outs that's a bigger one.

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

* Points to the entire thread *

Nice cop out. Surely you can find one instance to give as an example in this entire thread where I made that claim that “the game should do what I prefer”? Are you just pulling accusations out of you ass based on how my post made you feel?

Oh you mean that you made this thread just to kill time, knowing that nothing would change about the cosmetic store? And that you already knew that you were twisting definitions? So this was all some colossal waste of time? I mean, after all, you're saying you did not want the game to do what you think is best.

Haha you can’t find anything to back your accusation so you are just making more XD

I'm sure you feel content with yourself over some false perception of victory. After all "winning" has a lot of different definitions right?

If you didn't seek a change towards what your POV is, you wouldn't have made a thread about this. This is clearly not a PSA. And even if it was, it's some old timey bs one, where they got all the basic facts wrong and made the wrong assumptions, then try to proselytise about it.

But hey, it seems everyone now knows to disregard anything you say.

With that said, this will be my last reply to your shit show of a thread and replies. May we never hear from you again.

Iridianny · August 2022

Asgerr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Natasha wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

Excellent, then you agree your own points are trash and everyone here along with the devs can ignore your thread.

CRISIS AVERTED PEOPLE.

These iridianny shit takes that try to emotionally change established definition of gaming vernacular don't matter.

Just leave it, let's go!

Oh look, she’s back… yay… no one called you this time though, weird. Good job offering another shit posting meme and nothing beneficial to the conversation as usual. Air head, huh?

Almost like this is.... a Public Forum where everyone is free to say what they want?

Are we now trying to curb free speech too? Damn. That point I made about Tyranny of the minority is growing even more accurate.
show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

@Asgerr you can accept them, that doesn’t mean they aren’t pay to win.

How does a costume affect your RP skills?

How does a purchased cosmetic aid you in plotting, scheming, making friends and alliances, have duels, feuds and arguments? What edge is given to you? Why is someone suddenly winning for wearing a cosmetic?

Or is RP for you just about playing dress up and seeing who looks nicer?

Ever heard of immersion?

So no edge provided. Got it. Only a matter of immersion. Thus not P2W.

Shame that has not been your argument until just now. If you wanna talk cop-outs that's a bigger one.

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)

So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.

Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.

Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.

It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.

"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?

And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.

If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

* Points to the entire thread *

Nice cop out. Surely you can find one instance to give as an example in this entire thread where I made that claim that “the game should do what I prefer”? Are you just pulling accusations out of you ass based on how my post made you feel?

Oh you mean that you made this thread just to kill time, knowing that nothing would change about the cosmetic store? And that you already knew that you were twisting definitions? So this was all some colossal waste of time? I mean, after all, you're saying you did not want the game to do what you think is best.

Haha you can’t find anything to back your accusation so you are just making more XD

I'm sure you feel content with yourself over some false perception of victory. After all "winning" has a lot of different definitions right?

If you didn't seek a change towards what your POV is, you wouldn't have made a thread about this. This is clearly not a PSA. And even if it was, it's some old timey bs one, where they got all the basic facts wrong and made the wrong assumptions, then try to proselytise about it.

But hey, it seems everyone now knows to disregard anything you say.

With that said, this will be my last reply to your shit show of a thread and replies. May we never hear from you again.

“Curb free speech” XD that’s a LONG shot buddy, just said it was “weird” she actually came without being called on like a dog. Nice job not backing your accusations and continuing to just pile more and more on every time it’s called out. That’s really all you added to this conversation so it won’t be a loss when you are gone. ✌️

Samson1 · August 2022

Natasha wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iridianny wrote: »

Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.

Excellent, then you agree your own points are trash and everyone here along with the devs can ignore your thread.

CRISIS AVERTED PEOPLE.

These iridianny shit takes that try to emotionally change established definition of gaming vernacular don't matter.

Just leave it, let's go!

I don't believe anyone has been forcing you to view or contribute to this particular discussion. You are indeed free to go if you wish.

I will also point out that your tone and potty mouth are a little unbecoming. That may be something worth working on.

Liniker · August 2022

@Iridianny Good job trolling all these people lol

How can anyone believe this is a real post? a person couldn't be this fucking stupid.... he is just trolling everyone come one guys

Ludullu · August 2022

It is really a shame that this thread has completely devolved into pointless shitslinging, even after Azherae explained the exact situation where Iridianny is correct, even if such situation will be so damn rare that I'd personally say it's gonna never happen, but the point that no one understood said situation or why that situation proves Iridianny's point (be it only in that kind of very particular situation) is quite a shame indeed.

And as for Asgerr's attempts at explaining why the thread is "selfish", @Iridianny the perceived selfishness comes from the assumption that the creation of this thread was meant to change Intrepid's monetization scheme. And the selfish part being "you want to get rid of the cosmetic store because you consider it p2w, but w/o said store Intrepid would have to either increase the sub price or introduce some other monetary feature. And for the majority of people anything outside of cosmetic stores is usually seen as either p2w or at the very least aggressive and/or exploitative p4c. But considering that you don't care about either of those things, you still made the thread with the (assumed) purpose of changing the currently accepted non-p2w model. And it is seen as selfish on your part".

Or at least that's how I understood Asgerrs attempts at pointing this out. If that is not the case, Asgerr, or if the intention of the thread was not in fact to change the currently planned monetization scheme, Iridianny - then I guess we have in fact spent our time uselessly arguing pointless semantics.

Iridianny · August 2022

@Liniker ”how can anyone be this fucking stupid?” Do some introspection and self reflection pos.

Iridianny · August 2022

@NiKr whether or not intrepid wants to keep their promise of not having p2w is not my decision nor is it really something I’m going to lose sleep over after all it’s just a video game. I was simply pointing out that’s their current model is in fact p2w.
Asger’s accusations were far more than what you explained and I didn’t ask for an explanation from you I asked for a specific example where I made a claim he accused me of making, which he couldn’t provide.

Ludullu · August 2022

Iridianny wrote: »

Asger’s accusations were far more than what you explained and I didn’t ask for an explanation from you I asked for a specific example where I made a claim he accused me of making, which he couldn’t provide.

Well, if your intention wasn't to change the monetization then you can disregard Asgerr's accusations of selfishness and just go back to arguing about the semantics of p2w and the rarity of situations where even your definition of it applies to Ashes

Oh, and considering Azherae pretty much did your job for you, I thought you'd be fine with me doing Asgerr's job for him

Unknown · August 2022

This content has been removed.

GethOverlord · August 2022

Cosmetics shops aren't p2w in a way that really matters. If we can see info about a player and decide to PvP with them based on that info that isn't just their outfit then cosmetics won't matter. If you can't see that info then you shouldn't have cosmetics in the game at all. These are pretty apparent scenarios to come across in the course of development.

Cosmetic Shop is P2W

Comments