beapo wrote: » I like the concept the game Lost Ark has. Not allowing dps meters but in the end of the dungeon showing the biggest contributers to the dungeon. I would suggest having something like "most damage done ", "most healing done" and maybe "most damage mitigated".
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them. I mean, this makes no sense. Combat trackers have never been for solo people. If a combat tracker came out that was solo only, or if people started talking about one, obviously people would want it for those around them, because that is what people have always had. There was never a situation in which solo trackers were a thing and group trackers were not. This wouldn't be a case of people complaining and wanting more, it would be a case if people wanting what they already had. While you could then say "but people in WoW had combat assistants,so they would just argue for what they had", the easy answer to that (and an answer I would give should anyone seriously ask for combat assistants) is that since they are exclusive to WoW, as opposed to a genre staple, you cant really use the argument that they exist in that one game. You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior. I am indeed trying to dumb things down a bit, but only to suit my current audience. I didnt say combat trackers are like pen and paper, I used it as an example of why a slippery slope argument is not a good thing. I'll try it again for you. Here is a scale. Pen and paper Calculator Excel Combat tracker Combat assistant Draw a line where you are content, and argue up to that point. There is no need to argue anything outside of what people are asking for. They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced. I'm not talking to Intrepid, I'm talking to you. If Intrepid had confidence that the decision they have made is what the community wants, they would host a poll like they did for multiboxing (which needs to be boosted by Intrepid, and needs to have actual pertinent information such as no actual way to stop people using combat trackers). They wont do that though, because they know what the result will be. It's funny, you tell me to go back and read the thread - despite the fact I wrote the plurality of it. Even if I did go back through the thread, that isnt going to show the dozens of discussions that spawned off in to other threads, or in to private messages. When I saw there are less than a dozen people currently against the combat tracker suggestion that has been presented here, I am being generous. Not only are there very few people against it, but those that are against it are unable to give an actual reason as to why they are against it. Those people are also stubborn, and would not alter their opinion on something they have argued over regardless of how futile they realize their argument is (even to the point of arguing factitious cases of slippery slopes). Essentially, the world values facts less now than it used to, and so some people are happy arguing without any facts to back them up. It's so bad now, in fact, that sometimes these people dont even realize they are making an argument from a tactless perspective. For the record the argument for combat trackers is that most MMO's are able to alow then without any negative consequence, and many players enjoy using them. The argument against them seems mostly to involve some herps and a few derps. It is incoherent, there are no solid examples that aren't immediately disproven, basically there is no solid foundation to it as an argument. Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized. So why do most games not end up with combat assistants? At this point, until you can either answer this point or claim that all MMO's have combat assistants, I cant see how you can logically maintain this slippery slope argument.
Mag7spy wrote: » Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them.
You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.
They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.
Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized.
Aerlana wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance? I don't care about rules like i don't care about my town rules/law if they reduce the harmony in the neighborhood. I prefer doing things that make the neighborhood happy, and that the neighborhood think is good. As i said, because you seems to love a lot the neighborhood metaphor, i saw the lawfull side being bad, and the don't care side being good. And gave two obvious example of this. (Mayor and police knows i use firewood for my bbq and not coal... but everyone plays to be blind) My question i ask myself is always "does my decision is a danger for other people, or does it harm them" . Excessiv application of laws/rules can be harmfull... And here we go on FFXIV... Where combat tracker are openly forbidden as stated by Naoki Yoshida, and we still have a whole website, full of datas of millions fight across the world, including datas of people that DOESN'T WANT to be recorded. FFXIV is showing what kind of things will happens to AOC : both game are forbidding combat tracker with a ban hammer as sanction. So just lets watch what the old one is doing ? The simple fact some people that doesn't want to be recorded are recorded and have their stat published is for me a problem. a real one. And the solution is not getting the site down (it won't stop at all this problem). The solution is having a tool usefull enough for people using it, while protecting people who don't want to be recorded... This is what a good neigborhood is : a place where each neighbor doesn't harm the other comfort, not by following the town's rules, but with decision that makes everyone happy. To finish a thing i love about @Mag7spy it is how he is full of bias, and decide what community wants, which most people in this topic never pretended (be it on one side or other)... Let's be honest : you know nothing about what a community is. so before saying "the community says" try to learn what a community is. It is not a nearly uniform mass, with a global mindset. no, it is lot of different mindset, different hope, different way to play the game that gather the whole community. A community is a patchwork... And sticking about the mindset of only one color of this big patchwork is not how you get a good and harmonious neighborhood...
TheClimbTo1 wrote: » My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?
Aerlana wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » A combat tracker, by definition, IS assisting you. so... a tool that do measures is a tool saying you what to do... . In my work i have 2 kind of tools, one that gather metrics, and one that assist me. The first are tools you are probably using in your own life often, and some few specialised. But one example is... a ruler The seconds are software where i take informations i gathered and gave me all results... No more work to do. (aside using my own experience to see if results are dubious, due to bugs, or bad inputs) This is the difference between a combat tracker (gathering data easy to read) and combat assistant (says you all information you want without puting any effort in it) The first just show me raw numbers i can work on. and from those raw numbers, i can have lot of answers. The seconds gives me all answers... (And i know some people doing the same work, so accustomed of those assisting tool not able anymore to do the work themselves... which is a problem sometime) And you are using second as arguments against first. Combat tracker is just a .xls it doesn't gives any final information, it is still raw numbers you have to work on to get your answers. If you want your reasonning true, you also have to fight against combat log... because they also assist us about understanding how the game works, how the class work, what are the best skills of the class, etc etc... The combat tracker is just an organised view of all things already written in combat log. And when you say "we come on ashes to flee other mmorpg" : true People come here to find back some elements of the old design, back in 2005 and even before In old good time... when people ALREADY used combat tracker... EQ, my first mmorpg, i went i a guild that used it (not mandatory to have it ourselves but officer used it a lot) WoW was not released yet... Steven speaks about creating a game with what they were back in those time, in this golden age ? Fine... there was combat tracker. Oh and a last point about "respecting tos" : on FFXIV tools like reshade are forbidden. while i don't care, all my friends, and nearly all of their various FC are using it. it even made a drama when a player which modded her game and share a little too much about it on twitter was banned... for modding, while it was already done A LOT... people tried to make her unban, while modding is totally against the TOS (so it was totally rightfull for SE to ban her, and unrightfull for people to defend her... ) So all those people (probably large majority of FFXIV) that does those things, against the tos, are all bad neighbors ? ... Asgerr wrote: » If you wanna use another false equivalence: it's like banning guns (picturing a US situation here). Because one person is capable of using their gun properly and without causing harm to others, doesn't mean that others won't and haven't already caused harm. The easiest solution then? Ban everyone from having access to guns (except maybe the devs for whatever testing reasons etc). This is the problem about the debate around tracker People put all fault on it, but refuse to see the real problem is how easy it is to exclude people... Remove combat tracker in any form in wow, this will change nearly nothing, people will remain toxic, will kick people they think are making their dungeon run harder. and will find always new way to discriminate, and mostly... even more dumb way... I mean, just look at wow or FFXIV party finder... lot of parties just ask insane ilvl, or the proof of kill the second week (wow) or second day (FFXIV) of the content... And then, if a people is a problem, it is kick because will find another dude in less than one minute... Now get in a game where replacing a dude takes 20 or more minutes (because you have to go back in town, do the call, recruit, then run back to dungeon)... don't worry people will keep with them the bad guy (be it because he takes all AOE, break cc or have bad damages) and try to finish dungeon with him... In FFXIV i even saw votekick against tank or healer because they refuse to do the door to door pulls... No combat tracker there, just because the tank want to play chill pack after pack, i saw people doing votekick ! More often than votekick against people that try to force the mass pull which is, for me ... a good reason to kick a healer/DPS... in 15 years of mmorpg, always people were kicked because other thinks it would lead to a faster clean of the content to replace him. But if replacement is long to do, don't worry people will stop kicking for any small problem. When even with duty finder, there were long time to find a tank... people still played the dungeon with the really bad tank. Because while with tank the dungeon went form a 20 minutes to 30 minutes run, kicking him was easily getting to a 40 minutes run due to the loooong time to get a new one. This is why dutyfinder is one of the worst thing ever in MMORPG... this is why cross server is another one of the worst thing in mmorpg. This is one of reasons family teleportation will be a problem in AOC if it exist. Find the real ennemy of what you want. here is not the data, but the easy replacement of people.
TheClimbTo1 wrote: » A combat tracker, by definition, IS assisting you.
Asgerr wrote: » If you wanna use another false equivalence: it's like banning guns (picturing a US situation here). Because one person is capable of using their gun properly and without causing harm to others, doesn't mean that others won't and haven't already caused harm. The easiest solution then? Ban everyone from having access to guns (except maybe the devs for whatever testing reasons etc).
Noaani wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » The problem isn't even Trackers or No Trackers here. We're beyond that. The actual problem here is just you. Your blatant disregard. You have plenty of Trackers Allowed games to play. But you aren't content with that, for some reason. You seem to think I came in to this community at the same point in time as you - I've been here for 5 years now. I mean, I put $500 on this game long before their stance on trackers was known. It wasnt something I even considered looking in to before putting that money down - because literally no game has ever sustained a position against trackers, so why would this one? After putting that money down, they decided to take up the position they have. Since I am not obliged to agree with that position, nor to abide by it at all, I will not. I have at times said that I would gladly take a refund of the money I have put in to the game, should Intrepid offer it.
TheClimbTo1 wrote: » The problem isn't even Trackers or No Trackers here. We're beyond that. The actual problem here is just you. Your blatant disregard. You have plenty of Trackers Allowed games to play. But you aren't content with that, for some reason.
Noaani wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Does the presence of those tools increase the propensity and likelihood of a negative social interaction taking place? Yes. I disagree with this statement. I have had far more positive interactions because of trackers (literally hundreds) than I have had negative interactions because of trackers (literally zero). While I get that some people would have had negative interactions because of them, there are - from what I can see - far more people that are taking other negative experiences and blaming them on trackers. If you are in a group running content in WoW, and you are obviously slower than the rest of the group, the group is going to replace you. This isnt the fault of trackers, it is the fault of the LFG system (and the fault of the player for not being fast enough - they are as much to blame as anyone here). Remove trackers and the group can still see you are slower and so will replace you. Remove the LFG system and the group is unlikely to replace you because getting a replacement to them is going to be difficult. How can we then point to the tracker and say it is at fault? You may be right about Ashes not having world firsts, but you also may not be. I would suspect that there will be a singular boss that is the apex of the game, and would also expect to see one for each expansion. If not a specific boss, then a specific quest chain or some such. Server firsts though, they will absolutely be a thing. I will say, based on the above post, you have decided to drop the argument that was being made about combat trackers being bad because they will lead to combat assistants. This is a good decision.
Asgerr wrote: » Does the presence of those tools increase the propensity and likelihood of a negative social interaction taking place? Yes.
Mag7spy wrote: » Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
Mag7spy wrote: » Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol. Me saying I use a combat tracker to parse combat on YouTube videos or streams or what ever is not going to be grounds for a ban. I mean, I've made enough of a deal about it that I literally expect Intrepid to use me as the means to see if they can detect combat tracking software (and I have said as much innthe past). If they intend to actually ban players caught using tracking software, they first need to develop tools to detect it. Once developed, they need to test it before putting any weight behind what it finds. I fully expect to be the target of that test. Mag7spy wrote: » Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that. As I said, never seen a toxic interaction that is due to combat trackers. You dont need to believe me, and that's fine. However, since I have never owned a WoW account, and thus never needed to participate in WoWs LFG system, it really shouldnt be a surprise to anyone paying attention that I have not seen any such interaction. I will say, you are now at the point in the "Stubborn Internet User Guidebook" where it is obvious you have no argument left to make against trackers, but since the stubborn part of the title prevents you from altering your opinion, all you are left with is attacks on people on the opposing side of the debate whom are still making valid points, points that you cant seem to refute.
Azherae wrote: » Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position. I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for. I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it. It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position. I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for. I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it. It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low. If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position. I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for. I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it. It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low. If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory. I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'. I'll count this as 'insisting', though.
