I agree. A trajectory does not necessarily mean physical accuracy (e.g. gravity affects). The most efficient way would simply be a straight line. Basically do a hit scan and save the 'best' (by some technical definition) line that hit the target.
Maybe we should discuss what we actually know from the live stream and what we can deduce about the how the system actually works. There will be of course some assumptions and questions. Please correct me if I made an unfounded assumtion or miss to state an assumption on my part.
So lets start with targeting:
There are three ways to target a short:
hard lock
soft lock
without lock (only in reticle mode)
Since the arrow is a projectile, the game needs to calculate a trajectory once one releases an arrow. The trajectory without lock is relatively easy, but there is the question about what happens at the end of the attack range. I assume, that in case of any lock, the trajectory calculated for a shot is the trajectory that would impact the selected target after the flight time of the arrow if the attacker does not change position. However there are two cases again:
if the projectile is seeking, the trajectory will change depending on the position change of the target.
if it is not seeking, the trajectory will be fixed and if the target moves the projectile may not impact the target.
Q: are autoattacks seeking? Is it different between tab hard and soft lock or between retical and tab mod? If it is not the same all he time, how does the target know whether dodging is required or not?
So after the projectile is released there are things that can happen.
If the projectile is seeking and the target does not move and no one interposes himself between target and projectile, the projectile will impact the target. I assume that there are no body parts, so it does not mattwe where it actually impacts.
If someone interposes himself what happens? Q: does the projectile impact whatever interposes itself? Does it go through? This has PvP/flagging/group play implications. Is it different for seeking and non-seeking projectiles, for reticle and tab mode, for other use cases?
If the projectile is not seeking and the target dodges, the projectile will not impact.
So, in case the projectile actually impacts, we come to the part that Steven mentioned when he talked about 'everything being stat opposed'. So actually impacting however an impact is defined (e.g. hitbox etc) the target does not necessarily mean the projectile actually hit or did any damage. Instead the traditional tab target compare between attacker and defender stats come into play. If defender has high evasion/block and the attacker has low accuracy the attack may still 'miss' even if the projectile impacted.
Q: is there still such kind of stat opposition for hit/miss or does this only determin damage? Is this the same in all modes or is this different in reticle and tab mode. Since Steven talked about everything being stat opposed I still think impacting projectiles can still miss. I also think it is not viable to have a difference between the two modes, because otherwise stats are only relevant in certain situations and there is basically no way to balance anything.
Some thoughts:
- If dodging projectiles in tab mode is a thing, it would seem that hardlocking does not actually ensure an impact. And since an attack is stat opposed anway, it would certainly not ensure a hit. The system seems to not depend on the target skill of the attacker, but more on the dodge skill of the defender. The question is how often can one dodge in a fight? The short bow would surely have an advantage here.
- If a tank can interpose himself between a projectile and a target that opens up many gameplay options. The tank role was always problematic with its taunt mechanic useless in PvP. Now, a tank has actual ways to actually protect. But this also somewhat contradicts what Steven says in the life stream, because selecting a player in the backline with tab may not actually help at all, since you cannot hit him anyway.
Thoughts?
The bow projectiles are seeking yes, both in tab and reticle mode, in reticle mode if you mouseover a target and press attack, the projectile seeks to the target closest to your reticle. i'm pretty sure if you have a hard lock on something the projectile flys to that target. Projectiles can also be blocked by environment and players.
Did anyone actually confirm that projectiles were seeking? Did you see that in the video? Or did you just assume that? Honest question, I did not do an in-depth analysis of the video.
To clarify: by seeking I mean does the projectile adjusts the trajectory while flying based on movement of the target that was originally selected? I do not mean seeking in the sense of initially selecting the target near the reticle.
Ya i dont think they need to be really falling down, but i can understand why some people would want that for super long range shots. Would be interesting for a showcase on more skills and far range combat and how that will feel.
If all arrows are straight with no fall off it feels kind of scuffed game wise.
Maybe they just hit their max range and suddenly arc down for the sake of animation? I’d just ask that projectiles do no damage from that max range point to where it finally hits the ground.
Did anyone actually confirm that projectiles were seeking? Did you see that in the video? Or did you just assume that? Honest question, I did not do an in-depth analysis of the video.
To clarify: by seeking I mean does the projectile adjusts the trajectory while flying based on movement of the target that was originally selected? I do not mean seeking in the sense of initially selecting the target near the reticle.
Ya i dont think they need to be really falling down, but i can understand why some people would want that for super long range shots. Would be interesting for a showcase on more skills and far range combat and how that will feel.
If all arrows are straight with no fall off it feels kind of scuffed game wise.
Maybe they just hit their max range and suddenly arc down for the sake of animation? I’d just ask that projectiles do no damage from that max range point to where it finally hits the ground.
It should do that even more so since you can free aim shoot, makes it more realistic for it arching down than just suddenly disappearing.
So ya thinking about it they can have like at 40m (or whatever a good value would be for that range) the arrow starts arching down gradually or exceptionally.
I’m not sure where you have seen this ‘shown.’ Nothing in any of the reveals or A1 has been balanced to the goal TTK. Steven is in God mode for all demos, and the damage output for those demos is entirely for demo’ing the skill and relative power, not balanced amplitudes.
You don't know if the 30 - 60s time to kill is balanced around action combat misses/ maneuvering moreso than already shown either.
There is only 1 Ranger; out of 8 classes. If FPS players want their 'class' let them have it.
Well, the preview of ranged basic attacks applies to all classes, not just rangers. All classes can use long and short bows, so no I don’t think turning the basic ranged attacks into an FPS is great for Ashes.
Why not? Third-person aimed basics sound fine too. A lame low-power and slow tabbed basic as an alternative sounds fine too.
Do you support first-person or over-shoulder aimed shots for Ranger specific abilities?
With some tab here and there? Guaranteed hit on target with third shot type stuff; or after a meter is filled type stuff?
Homing shots that might not be the best but they home-in?
Guaranteed basic hit, after being damaged, against the last person that damaged you [maybe with a 4 second cooldown]?
It didn’t appear the arrows in the preview have a ballistic trajectory.
Honestly, I can’t imagine they’d implement a trajectory when you have a hybrid combat system where you have tab and hard targets. Those folks that have to adjust for elevation and drop would be at way too far a disadvantage to another player tabbing them, not to mention melee with a quick charge.
It wouldn't because players(most likely action combat) who can account for trajectory will be able to shoot from behind cover. This brings out a new dynamic of gameplay. Not everyone will be standing out in the open because that would be dumb.
You don't know if the 30 - 60s time to kill is balanced around action combat misses/ maneuvering moreso than already shown either.
Truth. But I haven’t asserted that’s the case. Only that the planned TTK is 30-60s and we haven’t seen that in any footage yet.
Why not?
Do you support first-person or over-shoulder aimed shots for Ranger specific abilities?
Either is fine.
With some tab here and there?
It’s fine.
Guaranteed hit on target with third shot type stuff; or after a meter is filled type stuff?
Not a big fan of power meters. ‘Guaranteed’ hit with action based on reticle, stat-driven hit for tab.
Homing shots that might not be the best but they home-in?
That’s a good topic in and of itself. My preference is that action shots are not homing. Tab shots are if the ‘to hit’ roll was successful, but doesn’t hit if the target moves out of the projectile’s range before it hits. I’m not totally fixed on that though.
Guaranteed basic hit, after being damaged, against the last person that damaged you [maybe with a 4 second cooldown]?
You don't know if the 30 - 60s time to kill is balanced around action combat misses/ maneuvering moreso than already shown either.
Truth. But I haven’t asserted that’s the case. Only that the planned TTK is 30-60s and we haven’t seen that in any footage yet.
Why not?
Do you support first-person or over-shoulder aimed shots for Ranger specific abilities?
Either is fine.
With some tab here and there?
It’s fine.
Guaranteed hit on target with third shot type stuff; or after a meter is filled type stuff?
Not a big fan of power meters. ‘Guaranteed’ hit with action based on reticle, stat-driven hit for tab.
Homing shots that might not be the best but they home-in?
That’s a good topic in and of itself. My preference is that action shots are not homing. Tab shots are if the ‘to hit’ roll was successful, but doesn’t hit if the target moves out of the projectile’s range before it hits. I’m not totally fixed on that though.
Guaranteed basic hit, after being damaged, against the last person that damaged you [maybe with a 4 second cooldown]?
No.
I'd rather Tab be lame and underpowered but guaranteed hit, with mostly action combat aiming.
No meta-gaming gear statting crap that throws a wrench into every veteran MMO players brain when they try and think about action combat, and makes action combat's effectiveness more arbitrary. . .
Autoshot against last person that struck you if your reticle passes over them within 2 seconds (every 4 seconds), softlock on person that you're tabbed to (small, maybe a doubling of player radius or a bit less), easy retargetting for those with good aim such as Press E and target person you're hovering over, and a weak auto-attack against those you're tabbed on seems like the best version of Hybrid combat.
Movement and AoE abilities are still basically easy in this version of things.
The rest of the game can and should exist as much of its own thing just as combat is much of its own thing. So for those that like slower strategy, they can do other stuff. For those that like a bit of combat, tactics & some strategy, they can work with those that are good at action combat and with other aspects of combat such logistics, planning, traps, setup, whatever; like an officer or platoon leader.
If Node stuff is Amazing, if resource management was a serious thing, if traps were some advanced thing, then Sharif would feel less scared of action combat and [variable] inertia.
plopping a few examples here. 21.08 https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=1268 Steven is able to blind fire here, but notice he does not have a target near the reticle (i tested this with wand in A1 and you were able to do the same if no target was near your reticle) but as soon as you have a target the projectiles go to the nearest enemy and the projectiles do hone in
Honestly i have no issues with projectiles moving like that in a mmorpg for combat. If it is soft lock and you need to track your target that is good enough skill ceiling for me doesn't need t be pin point that isn't really needed aka head shots. T(here should still be skillful long range shots)
The other layer of skill ceiling would come from your abilities and your movement and it be perfect for action combat.
Honestly i have no issues with projectiles moving like that in a mmorpg for combat. If it is soft lock and you need to track your target that is good enough skill ceiling for me doesn't need t be pin point that isn't really needed aka head shots. T(here should still be skillful long range shots)
The other layer of skill ceiling would come from your abilities and your movement and it be perfect for action combat.
Honestly i have no issues with projectiles moving like that in a mmorpg for combat. If it is soft lock and you need to track your target that is good enough skill ceiling for me doesn't need t be pin point that isn't really needed aka head shots. T(here should still be skillful long range shots)
The other layer of skill ceiling would come from your abilities and your movement and it be perfect for action combat.
Or you can get gud
There is a balance when it comes to mmorpgs, it is a action combat after all. It needs to be balanced against melee.
Did anyone actually confirm that projectiles were seeking? Did you see that in the video? Or did you just assume that? Honest question, I did not do an in-depth analysis of the video.
To clarify: by seeking I mean does the projectile adjusts the trajectory while flying based on movement of the target that was originally selected? I do not mean seeking in the sense of initially selecting the target near the reticle.
That is not what i meant by seeking. Maybe projectile tracking/homing would be a better name for it. The target does not really move in these cases. The question is would the projectile adjust course if the target(!) moved or dodged once the projectile is in the air.
Comments
The bow projectiles are seeking yes, both in tab and reticle mode, in reticle mode if you mouseover a target and press attack, the projectile seeks to the target closest to your reticle. i'm pretty sure if you have a hard lock on something the projectile flys to that target. Projectiles can also be blocked by environment and players.
To clarify: by seeking I mean does the projectile adjusts the trajectory while flying based on movement of the target that was originally selected? I do not mean seeking in the sense of initially selecting the target near the reticle.
Maybe they just hit their max range and suddenly arc down for the sake of animation? I’d just ask that projectiles do no damage from that max range point to where it finally hits the ground.
Yes you can clearly see here steven aiming purposefully over the target 21.26
here he's aiming completely off target and still hits, watch in slower speed 22.28
+ 20.54 hits the left target
It should do that even more so since you can free aim shoot, makes it more realistic for it arching down than just suddenly disappearing.
So ya thinking about it they can have like at 40m (or whatever a good value would be for that range) the arrow starts arching down gradually or exceptionally.
at 20.54 the projectile fly's from a weird spot straight to the target and not from the weapon
You don't know if the 30 - 60s time to kill is balanced around action combat misses/ maneuvering moreso than already shown either.
Why not? Third-person aimed basics sound fine too. A lame low-power and slow tabbed basic as an alternative sounds fine too.
Do you support first-person or over-shoulder aimed shots for Ranger specific abilities?
With some tab here and there? Guaranteed hit on target with third shot type stuff; or after a meter is filled type stuff?
Homing shots that might not be the best but they home-in?
Guaranteed basic hit, after being damaged, against the last person that damaged you [maybe with a 4 second cooldown]?
It wouldn't because players(most likely action combat) who can account for trajectory will be able to shoot from behind cover. This brings out a new dynamic of gameplay. Not everyone will be standing out in the open because that would be dumb.
Truth. But I haven’t asserted that’s the case. Only that the planned TTK is 30-60s and we haven’t seen that in any footage yet.
Either is fine.
It’s fine.
Not a big fan of power meters. ‘Guaranteed’ hit with action based on reticle, stat-driven hit for tab.
That’s a good topic in and of itself. My preference is that action shots are not homing. Tab shots are if the ‘to hit’ roll was successful, but doesn’t hit if the target moves out of the projectile’s range before it hits. I’m not totally fixed on that though.
No.
I'd rather Tab be lame and underpowered but guaranteed hit, with mostly action combat aiming.
No meta-gaming gear statting crap that throws a wrench into every veteran MMO players brain when they try and think about action combat, and makes action combat's effectiveness more arbitrary. . .
Autoshot against last person that struck you if your reticle passes over them within 2 seconds (every 4 seconds), softlock on person that you're tabbed to (small, maybe a doubling of player radius or a bit less), easy retargetting for those with good aim such as Press E and target person you're hovering over, and a weak auto-attack against those you're tabbed on seems like the best version of Hybrid combat.
Movement and AoE abilities are still basically easy in this version of things.
The rest of the game can and should exist as much of its own thing just as combat is much of its own thing. So for those that like slower strategy, they can do other stuff. For those that like a bit of combat, tactics & some strategy, they can work with those that are good at action combat and with other aspects of combat such logistics, planning, traps, setup, whatever; like an officer or platoon leader.
If Node stuff is Amazing, if resource management was a serious thing, if traps were some advanced thing, then Sharif would feel less scared of action combat and [variable] inertia.
Silly game . . .
The other layer of skill ceiling would come from your abilities and your movement and it be perfect for action combat.
Or you can get gud
There is a balance when it comes to mmorpgs, it is a action combat after all. It needs to be balanced against melee.
That is not what i meant by seeking. Maybe projectile tracking/homing would be a better name for it. The target does not really move in these cases. The question is would the projectile adjust course if the target(!) moved or dodged once the projectile is in the air.