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📝 Dev Discussion #60 - Esports 🏟

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Comments

  • oOLu_BuOo wrote: »
    well...

    Few things to consider first

    1 - esports are generally run by businesses/organisations with teams because that's what esports is now.
    2 - we will probably be seeing the same organisations compete against each other ( echo, cloud 9, liquid, etc)

    In relation to MMORPG'S E-Sports

    1 - competitive arena is usually a fad
    2 - arena segregates players from content
    3 - most people dont usually care about arena championships. Very low numbers watch it regardless of MMORPG.
    4 - race to world first content is much more popular but is also ran by organisations and essentially becomes content farming and item funnelling.

    Sounds like Intrepid's goals with their mainstream combat design and feature bloat due to genuine lack of end game purpose is becoming like every other MMORPG they claim they are different from, just without pay to win spectrum.

    What an inspiration to the genre...

    What a delusional take xD

    good one pleb..
  • I'm highly for a coliseum building in nodes that characters can see stats?(limited)/wins&losses of the competing characters and bet on them. Proceeds would go to the node and the node's owner.

    As for competition, I think it would be very fun to have a "god/goddess" character (of Partay?) move a dimension into orbit of Verra and allow players to jump in. Once jumping in, guilds could have a siege tournament that would allow them to fight each other.

    The standard 1v1 Webnovel tournaments I can't recommend as much. They're long, complicated, and tend to be not done that well for characters that are limited to either support, tank, or dps. However, Ashes of Creation fits a variety of different team competitions perfectly. I will definitely recommend not going with the standard "Capture the Flag" trope. DO NOT USE THE FLAG. Use a temple artifact or "steal the princess" or something instead.

    Just had a killer idea though.... There's a game called kick the can. It's just like CTF, but instead of capturing the flag, you have to kick the three cans in the back of the opponent's territory. Similarly, instead of the three cans, you could have three temples on each side of the land. While in the opposing team's territory, the temples allow x3 damage per temple artifact kept in the temples. If an opposing team's player sacks the temple and destroys the artifact, you lose a x3 damage buff. If all 3 temples are destroyed, you lose the game.

    ...If you guys end up doing hidden classes in an update, though I know it is one in a million, I'd love to have a secret "dungeon core" sub-class that could create a dungeon that players could attack. More webnovel fun but seriously, I'd be all-in. If you guys go with this idea, please give me a head's up so I can get it. Otherwise, even if I play 8 hours a day, I know it's a long shot.
  • VeseraxVeserax Member
    edited February 9
    I agree with a lot of the points here in favor of competitive events. Most importantly:

    1) Mode -3v3 Deathmatch should be the main mode. It's probably the least chaotic and most balanced

    2) Camera - A spectator / camera mode would be great

    3) Gearing - another approach is to not implement any special pvp gear / stat...just normalize all gear inside of Arenas so no one has an adv. I know that's not the ethos of the game at large but I think for this mode it would just eliminate so much barrier to entry

    4) Rewards - in the same vein as point 3, I think there should be seasonal rewards to all who participate, not just the top percentage of the ladder. If WoW had implemented this a long time ago then arena would have been more popular for sure.

    5) Integration - As others have mentioned, it would be really cool to see this mode be connected to other aspects of the game such team signups, leaderboards in town, statues, whatever that may be. Also, a full system in game to manage these events is a great idea, so that third party platforms like GameBattles wouldn't be required

    UI

    I haven't seen this mentioned and, as I understand it, since Ashes won't have any addons then we would need the UI to tell us crucial details about the state of the game. For example, WoW has still not made diminishing returns a default piece of game detail that you can see, even though that's one of the biggest factors in PvP combat. I think at a minimum we need:

    1) DR tracker on enemy's - to know if they have already been CCed by a similar effect
    9b2z0es2cx41.png

    Other useful elements:

    1) CC / Buff / Debuff status on nameplates + Class colored nameplates if possible
    7dfd5gf9xfed.png

    2) Customization - I think having the ability to move and resize certain frames, whether it be your party frames or the enemy's party frames would go a long way. WoW only implemented this in the latest xpac.

    Visuals

    One last thing. Having clear visuals for spell effects and game state is another approach to some of the UI stuff that I mentioned. A common flaw for WoW arenas has always been that it is hard to follow if you don't know about the game, as opposed to a game like DOTA where things are more clear ( I've been told ), or something like Counter Strike where it's obvious what's happening.

    Thanks Ashes team! Looking forward to the game and some gladiatorial style combat as well, hopefully.

  • OtrOtr Member
    Vaknar wrote: »
    What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation?
    After ship to ship combat, compete who can hold his breath longer in the waters of the deep ocean.
    Tho , nearby fishermen might be angry spectators if we scare their fish.
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
    Planks, ropes and boulders. A way to push them all at captain's sign.
    Vaknar wrote: »
    What are your thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre?
    Very good if you implement my idea.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 11
    Nice! I love that we are having this discussion! I'll be sharing some feedback that I've gathered in the past few years from my region and my community,

    I will touch on both community-driven events and in-game ranked arena events,

    Community-driven events with the appropriate tools are very, very important for an MMORPG, using BDO as an example, the game developers don't really do much about the "esports" scene, but using my SA region as an example, there is a very popular and successful community-driven esports scene because the developers support it and over the years they have been providing tools to make it possible!

    The event is called "Clube da Luta" which translates to Fight Club, this is hosted by a Content Creator called ZeusGhostz for over 5 Years, this started as a small server PvP tournament and grew to become one of the most successful MMO events in SA since its a tournament that is open 12 months a year with a custom ladder system and MMR all done on their own website, he has sponsors for prize pools and has been growing every year,

    This is the website: https://ghostz.com.br/clube-da-luta-bdo/

    The fights happen weekly and they get hundreds of participants every week 12 months a year with viewership in Twitch ranging from 500 up to 1000 per stream (3 to 4 days every week)

    Heres one of the matches e on YouTube: http:https://youtube.com/watch?v=f7rLsiHYU3c/

    This event managed to boost BDO's popularity tremendously, Pearl Abyss supports it from time to time with prize pools but its not necessary, they do it a few times a year but the event is open all year 100% community driven, that takes little to no effort on the developer's side,

    recently they expanded this community event to some fighting games, I talked with ZeusGhostz personally and he would love to be able to expand to other MMOs like AoC as well, they tried doing it with Lost Ark, but it didn't work out because the developers refused to provide the tools necessary, New World devs didn't even bother replying and also had no tools available, the tools for these events to occur simply are:

    A Custom instanced Arena mode with an optional spectator mode, and optional equalized gear (just for the custom arena)

    Optional equalized gear just like they had in Archeage, when you join the match you can pick from a preset of light medium heavy armor and one preset of each weapon type, for AoC you should be able to save skill presets for weapon passives, augments and skills for Arenas so you can quickly pick your preset,

    and with the Custom Arena you should have settings to customize player numbers, all the way from 1v1s to 8v8s or more with uneven numbers depending on the settings,

    these arenas should have absolutely no impact on the game, no reward needed, no tokens, no progression, its 100% community-driven and also serves as a practicing field, having options to set it to public/open or private,

    they should be instanced and accessible throughout every military node AND Guild halls/Castles on the map, and be server-wide, not localized, that's it, all that is required for a flourishing community-driven esports scene that will happen naturally,


    now, in regards to ranked arenas with the ladder system, those should be limited to max 3 queues, to keep it competitive, and meaningful and to actually be able to find players, I'd say only 1v1, 3v3 and 8v8, those make the most sense for AoC, 8v8 as the game is balanced around it, and 1v1 and 3v3 since those are the most popular queues as well, nothing else on the ranked arenas, the more options is introduced the more split players will be,

    they shouldn't be equalized, but of course, no mounts/pets/consumables allowed, they should only open during prime time with a large enough window of participation,

    they 100% should be in a coliseum building (instanced) and have NO spectator mode for ranked arenas, or at least have a 5 minute delay to keep it competitive, no PvP gear or equalized gear, players should compete in what they achieve in the game, using their best gear, it doesn't need to be fair, and doesn't need to be balanced, it just needs to exist,

    The PvP seasons idea is great, every 6 months it resets and players lose access to runes, hero title, cosmetics and all that, that's cool,

    overall thats it from all the feedback I've gathered, hope this can helps, this is indeed something very important for an MMO, I hope intrepid gives it a lot of love

    EDIT: Last thing I want to mention... keep Castle sieges out of anything esports-related, absolutely no spectator mode even with delay for castle sieges, those should be for guilds that are participating only and it is very important to keep it at a competitive level, without outsiders being able to watch or interfere, everyone not participating in attack/defense should be ported out or die if they attempt to cross the siege line or preferably... make them instanced, and keep them 250vs250 not 500vs500, the big alliance wars with 1000s of participants where everyone can watch and participate should be the Node Sieges, castle sieges should be a controlled GvG environment
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  • Gaul_Gaul_ Member
    edited February 9
    Overall, I think Intrepid should not expend a large effort pursuing esports for this game. That type of company strategy is better served in other, competitive lobby-based genres. Equalized and instanced PvP is really the antithesis of the rest of the game's space. "Esports" is really a much more ambitious goal than just letting players queue up for instanced arenas on their server.

    However, I have two suggestions of features Intrepid can implement to greatly facilitate player run events:
    ---
    The first suggestion should be a fairly minor investment by Intrepid. Just provide an empty location or two in the game that are scenic and/or arena-like, devoid of interfering game mechanics like story arcs or POIs or rare resources. No special zone rules or changes to the mechanics of the game, just some notable locations that players can use for social events. Leave it up to that server's community to schedule, create rules, and enforce said rules on the individual server. If other players want to disrupt this event and cause problems, then so be it. [I wouldn't call this an e-sport area, just good design to give players a few options for social events]
    ---
    The second suggestion is much more of an investment, but still leaves the events in the hands of the community. Just provide a separate, small tournament server with some specialized rulesets and arena spaces. It doesn't have to be overly fancy. Let players copy their character over. There is no need for Intrepid to even provide equalized gearsets or try and determine the optimal parameters or marketing for the event. Players could do a lot with just a battle space and doorways with a timer. Just an empty naval arena could provide enormous potential for the game.

    This tournament server would be a good option if Intrepid did want to open up the door for potential in the esports area. My recommendation would be to simply have the CM team coordinate with player created organizations to use this special server. The CMs can manage the scheduling and set the timers/parameters that the player organizations want. The CMs can also establish a basic code of conduct for these organizations, so Intrepid can cut ties if it becomes necessary due to a failure in player conduct. As long as players can inspect each other's gear/components on this server (if those organizations even choose to restrict those items), then players can run the events themselves and decide what direction they want to go in.

    I would urge Intrepid to not get carried away with the esports effort, it has been a design distraction and an enormous financial mistake for many game developers in the past. It is rare that you 'strike gold' in esports, but facilitating the player community's efforts is likely the best way to find success.
  • DisobedientDisobedient Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 9
    Let's discuss which things are most likely to be streamed. Imo you're talking about action - like sieges, caravan raids, dungeons, ocean pvp, etc... (exceptions being voting for mayors or some major event like that). Well, what's the hardest thing about streaming an MMO? It's that (aside from sieges and maybe dungeons) the spontaneous things are, well, spontaneous. It's the fact that you can't activate your stream fast enough, or if you're already streaming, you can't effectively advertise the stream while simultaneously participating in the event. So, when these events occur, they're often times not streamed and end up as a YouTube video (which isn't what the genre needs, real time info will be important in this game, watching some raid a week later isn't helpful), or these events go under the radar altogether because maybe they weren't recording at the time.

    The best thing the genre could do for streaming is to fix this problem.

    Example, when you're in the open ocean and get attacked, you could quickly send a message or pop-up to join stream (customizable in settings) around the server for players currently playing, and maybe a text through the AoC app push notifications (I'd love this) to tune into your stream for ocean PVP, or maybe it's a random dungeon you found, or some treasure trove underwater... the list goes on. These types of things people would tune in for, then probably leave after. This happening over and over again will MASSIVELY help streamers across the board, and maybe even popularize the content more, on top of allowing players on their phones at work to feel like they're still connected to the game world, how it's changing and evolving, even if they aren't currently playing (like maybe a major node votes in a new mayor while the person is at work). Keeping the community connected is HUGE. The hardest part about MMO content is that the good stuff can be spontaneous that gets people moving on to content like Fortnite or Valorant which is consistently entertaining. Solving this problem could be MASSIVE for the genre as a whole.

    To summarize, MMO's have spontaneous events that occur all the time, and streamers can't effectively capitalize on these events while participating in them at the same time. It hurts the genre as a whole when the "WHOA, DID YOU SEE THAT?!" events can't be capitalized on for streamers. So, basically - help make advertising easier for streamers, by including features like (but not limited to) push notifications on the AoC app, and maybe even pop ups (not annoying ones, and customizable in settings) in game for people to join a stream. Ideally, make it in a way that, after setting up the initial advertisement, the streamers can active it with a click of a button. Hope this suggestion helps move the genre forward!


  • SonicXplosionSonicXplosion Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 9
    As someone who avidly watches esports for multiple types of games, I dont think esports is a good fit for an MMO. MMOs are usually one of the most noncompetitive genres of games, since there is an apparent uneven playing ground due to gear or class balance. Other genres such as FPS, MOBAs, fighting games, and even BRs and strategy games are much better for esports.

    Now, if we are discussing how to incorporate arenas, or allow for player run events to be facilitated, then my suggestions are as followed:
    * Create a freehold building that would act as an instanced arena. Freeholds are one of the few safe spaces in the world, and can help people carry out events in a smoother manor.
    * Have multiple types of supported formats, such as 1v1s (yes i know balance isnt really planned for this), 3v3s, and 8v8s, with seperate ELO systems for each format.
    * Have different types of arenas. A strictly flat arena is definitely needed (1v1 me final destination), but there should also be some other varieties to choose from. You could also implement a ban system if players dont want to play on a certain arena (maybe 5 arenas, each side bans 2).

    Now, if you really want to go silly, you could go the Smash route and add a separate format with some items or power ups or shit that people can just goof around in.

    On the other hand, if I was hired by Steven and told to make arenas "esports ready", I would probably say that it would need:
    * gear equalization
    * arena specific balance patches
    * ability to create a new character within a UI
    * pick/ban system with different arena layouts
    * free-cam spectator system
  • All I can say is YES YES YES PLZ!!
    lg8znk212uk6.png

    I'd honestly be OK with anything as long as esports was a thing in Ashes <3
    Great feedback already from the community!
  • PyrololPyrolol Member
    edited February 9
    oOLu_BuOo wrote: »
    Pyrolol wrote: »
    I believe some sort of PvP gear and/or wheather it be enchanting, augs etc to give PvPers a fighting chance against the hardcore PvErs - it adds a new level of competition without excluding anyone.
    I really don't understand where this idea comes from that you would need to give PvPers extra gear or stats to have a chance against PvErs. If the combat in Ashes has any skill ceiling at all(it has alot from what we have seen so far), then hardcore PvPers will wipe the floor with hardcore PvErs in a PvP scenario, just like they do in ESO or other games.

    It would be cool if you or someone else could explain to me why you think PvE players will have some form of advantage against PvP players that needs to be balanced out by giving PvP players something extra.

    As a PvP player myself, I strongly believe all that will do is make it completely impossible for a PvE player to beat me, which feels frustrating for him and boring for me.

    I made an Arena thread about all this

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58885/the-arena-thread

    “ There shouldn't be arena gear - it should be what your character has earnt from raids, dungeons, crafting etc and that is what you use to compete with, therefore skill can only be used so much before it is time to go back out into Vera and get some upgrades”

    This Thread is about E-Sports, if there were to be a tournament everyone should have the same gear

    What you quoted me on was simply adding one or two small PvP things like maybe 1 gear or an aug etc talking like a 10% extra stat for competing in Arena (as a slight reward)

    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • I'm all for Arena PvP and building a brand around esports. However, please do NOT balance the classes around Arenas/Esports. History shows you have to pick a scene you wish to balance your PvP around (Open World, large Scale, or coordinated small scale). This is a MMORPG, not a MOBA. WoW has made this mistake for years, and what it did was butcher classes because there is a clear expectation that there will be 2 dps and 1 healer at all times. Each class should have its own vision and not be forced to rely on another outside of role differences (Tank, Heals, DPS). Therefore, some DPS lost tools they had for years just because their Meta comps would roll with a specific DPS that, when together, could maybe feel oppressive. The point is that this was only the case in arena and nowhere else within the game's PvP scene (Rated Battlegrounds and Open World). What happens is you get some incomplete classes that lack tools in the rest of the PvP scene and can feel awful to play (Like shamans constantly having their defensives taken away).

    If things become too oppressive, I'd prefer an approach that adds special rules to these game modes. For Example, if healing is too oppressive for arena, then adding a timer that gradually reduces healing (usually referred to as dampening) is a better solution than nerfing heals outright. Proper CC DR is also important, but maybe in arena it also behaves a bit differently.
  • prymortalprymortal Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    E-sports & MMO's are a huge No! You don't have set objectives to justify it & if you build a mmo around those it becomes more of a trash MOBA gamemode so players split between it & open world ruining the game.
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    jsfxkwiq5hn0.jpg

    Here is the Dev Discussion asset w/o the text, as some have requested :)
    community_management.gif
  • SoSpokeMikaSoSpokeMika Member
    edited February 9
    All E-sport plans you have should focus on arena.

    Whatever you do, don't add Battle Royale mode because it will kill world pvp. DO NOT add capture the flag type of arenas, because they are utterly boring.

    1v1 is not necessary and it seems silly. 2v2 should be a minimum and 1v1 should be resolved with duels, which should too have their special achievements and rewards tied to them.
    You could even go further than some mmos and instead of pitching two teams against each other, add a third one.
    For arenas option no.1should be:
    2v2
    3v3
    5v5

    Option no.2 for bigger arenas:
    2v2v2
    3v3v3
    5v5v5



    Other things:

    -1 Flat basic arena is a must, but you should add different ones too. Some even with obstacles and spikes.

    -Arenas with open roof should be affected with elements. Muddy arena grounds, rain, puddles..

    -You should hear people chanting during the match. Maybe even announcer. TES:Oblivion arenas were amazing when it comes to atmosphere.

    -Titles based on your rating.

    -An option to be a spectator (part of the crowd) of other player matches

    -A way to bet without ruining economy

    -PvP rewards MUST have unique look about them, but not any special pvp stat. You, as a player should identify someone as a PVP focus player by looking at his gear.

    -Severe punishments for ppl who try to fix matches.





  • prymortal wrote: »
    E-sports & MMO's are a huge No! You don't have set objectives to justify it & if you build a mmo around those it becomes more of a trash MOBA gamemode so players split between it & open world ruining the game.

    I think it's shortsighted to say that they can't mix. WoW has been doing e-sports (starting with PvP) since 2008. And we all know WoW #s dwarf every other MMO...
  • Yenn0warYenn0war Member
    edited February 9
    Pretty good suggestions so far and you should focus on arena as e-sport just like Blizzard does with WoW.
    What I would love to see are chariot races that utilize vehicle as a weapon. Something like Super Mario Kart but serious.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isFeaWRQ7IA
    Maybe even jousting, I dunno.
  • OtrOtr Member
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions...
    Why was this burning?
  • I think people are confusing the actual in game arena instead of an annual arena tournament for e-sports once a year…
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • BillzbubBillzbub Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 9
    Considering very niche e-sports,

    I'd like to see an implementation of a caravan race.

    Where multiple caravans compete to deliver a set amount of goods from point A to point B, or even have it be a relay race to have resources travel to multiple different points across the world of Verra.

    This can be a fun event where caravan groups are challenged from all the risk/rewards associated. PVP, PVE, and different environmental traversal options, etc. I'm sure a set group size would be a rule of the e-sport. This would be an amazing challenge of skill, cooperation, organization, and leadership.

    With the relay race style, I would love to see some legs of the race where Caravans are kitted for speed, and other legs be kitted for battle.

    I believe this esport would be successful because these races are much longer than a traditional race would entail. I would enjoy watching this kind of event and rooting for a team to do well on their Journey. I believe that some of the best esports are the ones with the best combination of game mechanics and player engagement, so why not utilize what the game is great at and find a sport with the most player engagement.

    I was just thinking the same thing! I think it should be instanced. Players can set up the parameters of their particular race to make them more speed-based or more PvP based. They could allow or disallow land and water mounts, and since it is instanced, you could even make the caravans go like 3 times faster, but allow players to use flying or gliding mounts provided by the racing commission.

    I've always wanted to see the supplies on the back of a caravan bouncing around with stuff flying off in all directions for comedic effect.
  • victim130victim130 Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Issue with esports in any game, but MMOs specifically, is that you need to know your audience. GW2 flopped with its SPvP not being popular, WoW fizzled out over time due to a number of reasons, etc. Ashes being more sandbox and varied in its approach to PvP likely won't promote individual player skill as much.

    Even if arenas and the like exist, which sure you could try to do stuff with, but you couldn't make Esports out of lets say, running caravans or ganking players in the wild, because they are dynamic. For a player to show off skill or a team even, they need a static environment. Examples being like a map in a shooter or Summoner's Rift in League. Really the issue comes down to if people would want to watch arena pvp from a game that is primarily about other things, like I mentioned above, GW2 was 1/3rd SPVP and it struggled and failed to keep its esports scene alive.

    Personally I think its not a great idea to bank on esports for Ashes. I'd prefer you focus on the dynamic parts of the game's PvP, rather than structured pvp and a gamble on Esports. That said, tournaments run for prizes or player hosted events and stuff in that vein should still be encouraged, just nothing long term like Esports.
  • I think Esport is a very good addition. Content related to tournaments, whether official or community-made, will bring more visibility to the game and also bring the community closer to content related to ranked PvP and custom arenas.

    I just ask that you avoid the path of changing the balance for arenas so that it doesn't end up causing a split in the player base and diverting attention from what really matters, which is the MMO as a whole.
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  • Would be cool to have a system in place to allow players to make a bracket style seasons that can have the results viewable in game by the community. 1v1s I think would be best but group style could be done too.

    Would be cool to represent your nodes in the finals.

  • Billzbub wrote: »
    Considering very niche e-sports,

    I'd like to see an implementation of a caravan race.

    Where multiple caravans compete to deliver a set amount of goods from point A to point B, or even have it be a relay race to have resources travel to multiple different points across the world of Verra.

    This can be a fun event where caravan groups are challenged from all the risk/rewards associated. PVP, PVE, and different environmental traversal options, etc. I'm sure a set group size would be a rule of the e-sport. This would be an amazing challenge of skill, cooperation, organization, and leadership.

    With the relay race style, I would love to see some legs of the race where Caravans are kitted for speed, and other legs be kitted for battle.

    I believe this esport would be successful because these races are much longer than a traditional race would entail. I would enjoy watching this kind of event and rooting for a team to do well on their Journey. I believe that some of the best esports are the ones with the best combination of game mechanics and player engagement, so why not utilize what the game is great at and find a sport with the most player engagement.

    I was just thinking the same thing! I think it should be instanced. Players can set up the parameters of their particular race to make them more speed-based or more PvP based. They could allow or disallow land and water mounts, and since it is instanced, you could even make the caravans go like 3 times faster, but allow players to use flying or gliding mounts provided by the racing commission.

    I've always wanted to see the supplies on the back of a caravan bouncing around with stuff flying off in all directions for comedic effect.

    I would very much enjoy instanced races for players to set their own parameters and rules. Smaller events would definitely work for this format. I would love to compete in these smaller races from a Point A to B Format.

    I was thinking of Massive Events (maybe once or twice a year) that ran tens of hours or even days to complete. Running a super long event allows most everyone to get the opportunity to watch and cheer for their team, while simultaneously requires dedicated teams to plan months in advance to strategize. These types of races would be Multiple points that teams will have to carry resources Across a very large distance.
    y8qq123yr2g1.png
  • victim130 wrote: »
    Issue with esports in any game, but MMOs specifically, is that you need to know your audience. GW2 flopped with its SPvP not being popular, WoW fizzled out over time due to a number of reasons, etc. Ashes being more sandbox and varied in its approach to PvP likely won't promote individual player skill as much.

    WoW’s Arena Championship was on top 10 watched what are you on about? Not only that the population for WoW from 2004 - 2008 doubled when the Arena got introduced in 2007
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • I would not like for AoC to go full e-sports tourneys and fanfares I would prefer the competitive PvP remain within the game server (maybe even cross-server?).

    That said I think it's great to have in-game instanced PvP with casual and competitive modes where people can show off their e-peens. Giving the players the tools to run their own tournaments is even better.
    Now what I would like more would be a grand tournament that runs every X months and the victor gets some unique rewards and titles that last until the next tournament.

    Also it would be nice to have a way to watch the tournaments as a spectator.
    The way I imagine that, is having setup in such a way that you need to actually travel to the node that the tournament is being held at and the people of the node can have their own stalls to sell things to the spectators and become an actual local in-game event.
  • SherkusSherkus Member, Alpha One
    Promoting a competitive arena scene is a great idea, it can attract players interested in this aspect, it's fun and it also allows you to improve and measure yourself against players of your level.

    But we can't forget a very important aspect;

    ARENAS CANNOT BE THE GOAL OF AOC.

    - You should not be able to get the best PvP gear like in World of Warcraft, that would kill the Open World and the need for Raids/Professions.
    - Should not be the main source of gold

    A very good reward would be unique Season skins/mounts/pets from arenas, for the best players.

    I myself have been a Multi-Gladiator in WoW and I enjoyed that time very much, but I am aware that it took a lot of weight away from Open-World PvP.
  • Dev Discussion - Esports

    What are your thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre? What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation? Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Spectator Only Camera Mode for Battlegrounds, Castle Sieges, Node Wars, and Military Node Leader trials would be nice! I'm sure the Duel/Arena folks would like a Spectator mode too, even though Arenas are the most boring, and predictable PvP there is...

    Being able to watch these conflicts remotely in an upgraded Tavern could be hilarious!

    The most interesting POV Cams would be King/Mayor Dragon POV Spectator mode, and Special Forces Teams objectives within the Castle/Node Sieges

  • victim130victim130 Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Pyrolol wrote: »
    victim130 wrote: »
    Issue with esports in any game, but MMOs specifically, is that you need to know your audience. GW2 flopped with its SPvP not being popular, WoW fizzled out over time due to a number of reasons, etc. Ashes being more sandbox and varied in its approach to PvP likely won't promote individual player skill as much.

    WoW’s Arena Championship was on top 10 watched what are you on about? Not only that the population for WoW from 2004 - 2008 doubled when the Arena got introduced in 2007

    My bad there, I should have elaborated further. You're not wrong about it in the past, but over time it did fizzle out, its no where near the popularity of other games built more for their esports and its dropping in viewership every year now. 2023 aside, they didn't even hit 6 figure viewers through 2020-2022, during covid even. Not sure why its up to 300k last year honestly, but maybe Classic/Hardcore/Season's recent boom finally bled over.

    That said, comparing it to Valorant, League, Dota or CSGO/2, its barely holding on. Hell, even Overwatch beat them in 2023. I'm sure there are other esports I'm missing that are also ahead, maybe CoD? Not sure, though its a good picture to look at when Ashes makes a decision on this stuff. They have to compete with all of these games when trying to add an esports angle and personally, I don't think its worth the dev hours to do.

    For the record, I'm not saying we shouldn't have arenas or more sanctioned pvp opportunities, I'm purely talking about the competitive angle, involving coaches, teams, paying players, and bringing in sponsors, etc. for the purpose of an annual tournament (Or set of tournaments in the case of most games). I'd say it would hurt Ashes in the long run.
  • Well think 2v2 bracket is not necessary just takes away players from 3v3 bracket. Kind of divides PvP community as far as Arenas. Have done 2 vs 2 and 3v3 and 5v5 and in my experience 2v2 does not seem like much of a team experience with just one other person to play with.

    One element that that is needed is PvP game balance. Which is very difficult. Im playing League of Legends and they come out with changes like twice a month. However in professional League of Legends seems like same champion pool is used all the time cause of min maxing. Sometimes we are surprised by and off meta pick. Most of the 150 plus champs rarely get played on pro play. Now Ashes of Creation only has 8 Classes and 8 subclasses. Now in wow the most likely comp to win would always be RMD (stands for rogue mage druid) So most sucessful teams with exceptions would be RMD year after year. Pretty clear that comp has huge advantage so balancing out the comps is important. Same thing happen to overwatch players would watch the same champions get played over and over again.

    There are big discussions about pvp gear and pve gear. Well point is arenas should be fair for every one as far is gear is concerned. IN a nutshell in order for instanced PvP to thrive there has to be pretty good PvP game balance. This is one of the elements that players are looking for. Personally, think it is better for me to play MOBA for arenas and MMO for Open world PvP and Castle Sieges.

    Really only thing you have to do is help create a huge PvP community and then you can talk about esports.

    One thing that you can do to enable PvP is Metrics. I play LoL and well it would seem that they have enough metrics but obviosly no the case because people go to websites to get a better picture as far as data is concerned from the game they just played. One example is OP.GG.

    But, this in area that Ashes of Creation could do better than MOBAs.


    -could have things like win rate for past 100 or 50 games and have so you can link it a chat channel
    in one season you could play up ot 1000 - 2000 games think that over a year you should get better so win rate for last one hundred games campared to first hundred games should be better. There should be a way to get that information. Thing like win rate last week or last month or for the day. Sometimes thing like your internet failing and you go afk and same thing happens to other teams they go afk. Should be a way to flagg this games. If mean PvP IS about how good you are....so think counting an afk win does not support that. Should find way to cut those games out and see your adjusted wint rate for your own personally reference.

    Sorry have to go. Good day to you. :)

  • OptionOption Member
    edited February 9
    consultant wrote: »
    Well think 2v2 bracket is not necessary just takes away players from 3v3 bracket. Kind of divides PvP community as far as Arenas. Have done 2 vs 2 and 3v3 and 5v5 and in my experience 2v2 does not seem like much of a team experience with just one other person to play with.

    That is a very incorrect statement, 2v2 offered a chance to do a different composition which was double DPS and made it very different, more fast paced and quicker thinking

    For 3v3 it was 1x healer and 2x DPS

    I think Arena is important to have some sort of end game content for PvPers like how there are Raids for the PvE’rs
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