because you kept saying steven was referring to 8 men groups, not raid groups T_T
Yes, and I've already said that we both chose to believe what we think is a logical conclusion from what Steven said, based on our own previous experiences.
I never said I was more right. You can look at Mag's posts and compare them to mine and then tell me, whose posts sound more like "I KNOW I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE DEFINITELY WRONG AND HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT"
You are free to respond, it is never to late to walk back on some of the points you have been saying. As I've clearly pointed out the exaggeration / falseness.
Which means you should be more positive about it regardless, well unless its not about skill / knowledge to improving your situation with ttk and just about them making it a flat higher number.
Hm, not quite. From the perspective of 'will it be good', that's not really as big a deal as one other pretty big thing here.
If the line on the Wiki that said "Ashes of Creation will have a 30-60 second TTK" had instead, from the beginning, been 'Ashes of Creation will have a TTK that is a bit faster than most MMOs you're probably used to', a LOT of people who are here now would not be here.
Would there be different people? Maybe.
But it's up to Intrepid (and I guess you and I, to some extent) to convince people this can actually be good given everything.
Problem is, I don't really have much evidence to give, and you're not one for giving it.
Kind of hard to debate what will feel good (until we play), at this point it really is about preferences. I'm not saying he should want a different preference, but the idea is that the times can be longer if you are skilled. Which if one wants longer ttk that is a good thing.
You are right in the fact different people enjoy different things. So messaging can draw different people, but it is development so nothing is really set in stone that early. For me i understand that both for things I like and don't liek and expect changes (ie i dont agree with mass res, i made my point. But devs plan to have it in some form so ill play it and then give more feed back after).
My main issue as i said in my post was this information going around that the devs have planned for the combat, group compositions, player itemization and skill kits, universal defense skill tree (in development) and saying the ttk is based off all that and will only be 10-15. Which was clearly not true based off the exact quotes i pulled.
People should like what they like though, but I feel the main core of people won't say anything until they see the game in a more complete state. But know knows maybe alpha 2 will start to draw in more people to start talking on reddit / discords.
You are free to respond, it is never to late to walk back on some of the points you have been saying. As I've clearly pointed out the exaggeration / falseness.
There is no point in responding because you're always doing to me what you claim I'm doing to you. I never said the things you claim I did in your big post
This entire thread I've been saying "dps vs dps is 10-15s", "tanks/healers are ~30s" (and I even said that "it might not even be tank vs tank", cause Steven's wording there is more vague than in other parts), "group pvp will be killing people in 1s, as signified by Steven snapping his fingers", "when Steven is talking about group pvp he accounts for any of Intrepid's future plans for its balancing, which would include any potential defensive and offensive buffs/effects".
That's it. Unless you point to where I said "1v1 pvp is about both people being supported by other players" - I don't know what else I can say to make you see that I'm literally repeating what Steven said and saying "I don't like/want this design".
Steven has stated about being coordinated and targeting someone you will be able to kill them. It is reasonable to believe with larger sizes you won't need to be as coordinated do to all the dmg output 9but could have a lot more deaths in the process of it on your own side).
Again this is where the issue is and why i feel you should be walking that back. You can't make a statement all future designs will be like x and X. If a tank uses a skill to buff you while you are using defensive skills and have a defensive build up, that doesn't mean you are going to die instantly.
For the game to account for all that you would have to be dying in 1-2 hits without any buffs / build support. There is going to be points based on your kit where you will be more empowered and do to being able to dodge some attacks, negate all dmg completely. If there is a skill ceiling that means there is a certain amount of leeway for players to not just die instantly and be able to react in a raid setting.
If we are talkin about a 8v8 group setting we have to look at all the skills that can help kite, cc, increase defense, heal, etc. That would be the most honest disccusion as you can know somewhat of the upper level on survivability.
Ie if a dps is coming for someone and they get their dmg reduced by 30%, and the target they are attacking is having a defensive buff and heals. What is the dmg that dps is doing for the TTk at that point. if it takes the DPS 5-7 seconds longer to be able to kill the person (is that dps the dps is attacking now suddenly has a 20 sec ttk) and now he gets cc'd and is kited, what is the life of the target do to the heals is he back at full now. This kinds of things need to be kept in mind when you are talking about ttk and how it feels. And what it means about coordination and of course it can go the other way with good attacks setting themselves up..
Again this is where the issue is and why i feel you should be walking that back. You can't make a statement all future designs will be like x and X.
And I didn't make that statement. I simply repeated what Steven said and said "I don't like this design". It was Steven who said that this is their current approach to ttk balancing.
If he did jump from 1v1 pvp all the way up to "a full raid targeting a single player" - I'm somewhat fine that, but then we'd need to talk about aoe scaling, and that's a whole different discussion that has already happened in the past.
But if he did mean party vs party when he said "group pvp" - then I'd prefer if ttk was longer. Mainly because there's 2 ways to take his ttk timings:
the target stands around doing nothing
the target uses everything in their toolkit to avoid dying
If 10-15 ttk is in the context of the first option - it means that a dps class dies in around 5-10 damaging abilities, purely on hp values (this estimate is based on average cast times shown on streams). This then implies that a party of people can use all their best damaging abilities at once and wipe a target "in a snap".
This was my reasoning behind believing that Steven was talking about party pvp when he said group, and not "a raid is attacking a single person".
Now if we look at the second option - things are WAAAAY worse. Because now the target is moving and using defensive abilities - AND IT'S STILL A 10-15s TTK. This means that the hp values of that target are below the floor, which means that direct-damage's worth of ttk is probably like 4-5s.
And if THAT is the case - a party can wipe 2 people in a snap, if they get the jump on them.
Depraved and a few other people believe that Steven was talking about the first option (I don't remember which one you believe, cause this has been a long convo). And as I described above, Steven's "snap" still aligns with "a party targeting a single player in the enemy party" situation, and not just a "raid doing the same" one.
As for big defensive buffs or strong healing, that can supposedly save that single player - these would, first of all, only work if the defending side saw the attackers coming, but would also depend on what other tools the attackers have. Due to us not knowing any of those tools, I've been talking about attackers getting a jump on their target (which is usually the healer) and killing it "in a snap".
And I've already given my suggestion for how this perceived issue could be addressed and also gave my reasoning for seeing it as an issue (namely my L2 experience of healers "being snapped"). If you believe that Intrepid will go away from this "snapping" design and add defensive tools that prevent it - cool, you agree with me.
But this belief goes directly against what Steven has stated, which is why it's funny that you seem to agree with Steven, while disagreeing with me. If you think he was only talking about a "raid attacking a single target" - we'll just have to disagree on that interpretation.
Again this is where the issue is and why i feel you should be walking that back. You can't make a statement all future designs will be like x and X.
And I didn't make that statement. I simply repeated what Steven said and said "I don't like this design". It was Steven who said that this is their current approach to ttk balancing.
If he did jump from 1v1 pvp all the way up to "a full raid targeting a single player" - I'm somewhat fine that, but then we'd need to talk about aoe scaling, and that's a whole different discussion that has already happened in the past.
But if he did mean party vs party when he said "group pvp" - then I'd prefer if ttk was longer. Mainly because there's 2 ways to take his ttk timings:
the target stands around doing nothing
the target uses everything in their toolkit to avoid dying
If 10-15 ttk is in the context of the first option - it means that a dps class dies in around 5-10 damaging abilities, purely on hp values (this estimate is based on average cast times shown on streams). This then implies that a party of people can use all their best damaging abilities at once and wipe a target "in a snap".
This was my reasoning behind believing that Steven was talking about party pvp when he said group, and not "a raid is attacking a single person".
Now if we look at the second option - things are WAAAAY worse. Because now the target is moving and using defensive abilities - AND IT'S STILL A 10-15s TTK. This means that the hp values of that target are below the floor, which means that direct-damage's worth of ttk is probably like 4-5s.
And if THAT is the case - a party can wipe 2 people in a snap, if they get the jump on them.
Depraved and a few other people believe that Steven was talking about the first option (I don't remember which one you believe, cause this has been a long convo). And as I described above, Steven's "snap" still aligns with "a party targeting a single player in the enemy party" situation, and not just a "raid doing the same" one.
As for big defensive buffs or strong healing, that can supposedly save that single player - these would, first of all, only work if the defending side saw the attackers coming, but would also depend on what other tools the attackers have. Due to us not knowing any of those tools, I've been talking about attackers getting a jump on their target (which is usually the healer) and killing it "in a snap".
And I've already given my suggestion for how this perceived issue could be addressed and also gave my reasoning for seeing it as an issue (namely my L2 experience of healers "being snapped"). If you believe that Intrepid will go away from this "snapping" design and add defensive tools that prevent it - cool, you agree with me.
But this belief goes directly against what Steven has stated, which is why it's funny that you seem to agree with Steven, while disagreeing with me. If you think he was only talking about a "raid attacking a single target" - we'll just have to disagree on that interpretation.
bruh. 5-10 abilities, that's 5 -10 players to evaporate the target. even if everyone in the party attacked at the same time, you would only have 8 people attacking (also I highly doubt its 5 abilities). but anyway, how often are you going to get hit by the cleric, the bard, the tank, the summoner, the ranger, the mage, the rogue and the warrior at the exact same time? that means you would literally need to be in melee range of a full party to die that quick, so even with a higher ttk, you will most likely not survive anyways. and they would still need to click and hit f1 at the exact same time. if someone is a second late, you get healed.
that also means all the supports stopped supporting and started dpsing. if you only count the dps in the party (4) that's four abilities. you have time to get healed or do something, and that's if you are a squishy dps in melee range. you also have to consider that you might need to set up your powerful skills using normal attack combos, like make your target bleed to increase your backstab damage, etc. i doubt people will die in the blink of an eye in 8v8. they might die after the kill has been set up, which might take more than 10-15 seconds.
I highly doubt that will see people of equal level and gear getting one shotted by a single coordinated F1 of 4 people in a party vs party. when you add a second, a third or even a fourth party, etc. that will happen for sure. but not in 8v8
I highly doubt that will see people of equal level and gear getting one shotted by a single coordinated F1 of 4 people in a party vs party. when you add a second, a third or even a fourth party, etc. that will happen for sure. but not in 8v8
Except we've already seen that during the caravan showcase, which is also supported by the fighter showcase. Right now ~100dmg abilities take somewhere around 1s to cast. Stronger abilities take longer, but also deal x3-4 the damage.
So far we've seen that mages/healers are at lower hp values than melee chars (~1k compared to 1.5k). Leveling higher obviously gives more hp (lvl25 mage from the last showcase had 3k hp), but I'd assume that damage increases with lvl as well, so the only assumption I can make here is that ttk will remain similar (or potentially that is the exact ttk Steven was talking about).
Snipe from the caravan showcase did almost 400 dmg to a tank. Steven was lvl25 there (against assumedly lvl15 people), so let's assume it does 200 at lvl15 (everyone else in Steven's party did ~400, so I assume they were lvl25s too). At 200 dmg, that's 1/8 of a tank's hp and 1/5 of a healer's.
I'd imagine a strong long cast mage nuke has a similar dmg value. A rogue attack from stealth could potentially do even more, but let's say it's the same, but it obviously requires being in melee (but we have stealth). So even in these assumptions, that's already 3/5 of a healer's hp from just 3 dps characters.
I'd assume cleric/summoner/bard/tank can all use some ranged attack (either ability or bow) and warrior could be the first one to initiate into a stun synergy with a relatively low dmg value. Even if bow shots + stun do ~200 collective dmg - the stun would still provide just enough time to finish off the healer "in a snap".
And again, this is not counting any potential dps augments or cleric/bard/summoner having range abilities that are stronger than a simple bow shot.
Any potential buffs from either side can be disregarded cause they either balance each other out, or Steven took them into account when giving his timings.
To me this sounds like the most basic optimal surprise attack on an enemy party. I've seen COUNTLESS such attacks in L2 by archer/mage parties. Hell, even dagger parties did this through stealth. And all of what I said was in the context of an "one of each" party composition and not any potentially more dpsey setups of "as many archers as you can get".
So again, this was my thought process behind believing that Steven meant "party vs party".
Again this is where the issue is and why i feel you should be walking that back. You can't make a statement all future designs will be like x and X.
And I didn't make that statement. I simply repeated what Steven said and said "I don't like this design". It was Steven who said that this is their current approach to ttk balancing.
If he did jump from 1v1 pvp all the way up to "a full raid targeting a single player" - I'm somewhat fine that, but then we'd need to talk about aoe scaling, and that's a whole different discussion that has already happened in the past.
But if he did mean party vs party when he said "group pvp" - then I'd prefer if ttk was longer. Mainly because there's 2 ways to take his ttk timings:
the target stands around doing nothing
the target uses everything in their toolkit to avoid dying
If 10-15 ttk is in the context of the first option - it means that a dps class dies in around 5-10 damaging abilities, purely on hp values (this estimate is based on average cast times shown on streams). This then implies that a party of people can use all their best damaging abilities at once and wipe a target "in a snap".
This was my reasoning behind believing that Steven was talking about party pvp when he said group, and not "a raid is attacking a single person".
Now if we look at the second option - things are WAAAAY worse. Because now the target is moving and using defensive abilities - AND IT'S STILL A 10-15s TTK. This means that the hp values of that target are below the floor, which means that direct-damage's worth of ttk is probably like 4-5s.
And if THAT is the case - a party can wipe 2 people in a snap, if they get the jump on them.
Depraved and a few other people believe that Steven was talking about the first option (I don't remember which one you believe, cause this has been a long convo). And as I described above, Steven's "snap" still aligns with "a party targeting a single player in the enemy party" situation, and not just a "raid doing the same" one.
As for big defensive buffs or strong healing, that can supposedly save that single player - these would, first of all, only work if the defending side saw the attackers coming, but would also depend on what other tools the attackers have. Due to us not knowing any of those tools, I've been talking about attackers getting a jump on their target (which is usually the healer) and killing it "in a snap".
And I've already given my suggestion for how this perceived issue could be addressed and also gave my reasoning for seeing it as an issue (namely my L2 experience of healers "being snapped"). If you believe that Intrepid will go away from this "snapping" design and add defensive tools that prevent it - cool, you agree with me.
But this belief goes directly against what Steven has stated, which is why it's funny that you seem to agree with Steven, while disagreeing with me. If you think he was only talking about a "raid attacking a single target" - we'll just have to disagree on that interpretation.
The point I'm trying to drive home is its not white or black there is grey area in the game. They have a average ttk they are aiming for with general balancing, but skill and party composition is going to affect that as well. You need to accept that is going to be playing a role and they can't just give a exact answer for that because its impossible.
A rough attacking another rouge but one as the armour type to counter them but in physcial and element, and whatever effect will naturally do much less dmg. We need to accept the fact that we can't say they are saying players are using everything in their kit that is not possible. You aren't going to be expected to have everytinhg all the time as an average, you aren't also going to have every single party composition or piece of gear on you, nor is every opponent going to land every hit or account for you dodging skills. It is not realistic of you to expect that kind of answer even more so during development hence you won't get a answer for that. Again there is going to be tons of grey space.
To the comment about Steven talking about focusing people, id agree as those are his words and intent for the game. But as i said before CONTEXT matters, who is in your comp, do you notice them or some of your team, are you CD's on or off, your builds etc. If you are caught off guard and not using any skills ya you will end up dying, if you see them and you are skilled you might be able to reserve the situation and out play them. If you are bad and can't react and turn buffs, skills, etc on then you might get thanos snapped ya.
I feel the intent is for outplaying people, catching them off guard, etc. Its not 2 groups fighting each other and snapped instantly, you has to be a level of skill there from a side to do it. That is the most reasonable line of thinking if u are talking about that type of content.
Yes we don't know the tools but i expect there to be plenty of tools on both sides, and why situational awareness is important, as well as positioning. It opens up the room to be able to make big plays when it comes to pvp..
I view things from a pvp mind set on how I'd see things going based on my pass experiences. So when i hear certain things like snapped I'm going to ask how that would happen in an actual engagement. On top of my belief people are going to be able to have a chance to react (but that is also a grey area). If you get caught off guard and let a group of 4 people freely buff up and target you and take out your healer, than its not looking for for your group. You need to be able to react just as quickly as you are getting attacked, even if you get caught off guard you should know what their plan would be and who you need to protect.
Ie instant buff team, instant cc them them, make distance if possible, etc. Again if you don't have situational awareness and 4 dps can jump your cleric at the same time i don't know what to say.
*Edit caravan showcase did not show the universal defense tree, that is going to be something people will not be sleeping on (except for glass cannons)
Could see things liek reduce dmg first hit, reduced CC time, greatly reduced first hit cc time, buffs while dodging and blocking, hp barrier and low hp, etc. Also armour types and magic protects are going to be a big deal and setting up your kit.
I feel the intent is for outplaying people, catching them off guard, etc. Its not 2 groups fighting each other and snapped instantly, you has to be a level of skill there from a side to do it. That is the most reasonable line of thinking if u are talking about that type of content.
Which is why I suggested that tank effect. It would make parties fight the party as a whole, rather than removing the healer first and then just cleaning everyone else up.
Ie instant buff team, instant cc them them, make distance if possible, etc. Again if you don't have situational awareness and 4 dps can jump your cleric at the same time i don't know what to say.
It's the same "skill" you've been talking about. Executing a good ambush requires good knowledge of the surroundings and of the enemy's movement.
And in the case of ambushes the attackers always have an advantage (cause that's the entire point), so even if the fighting skill might be higher on the defending side - the ambushers could still come out on top.
Edit caravan showcase did not show the universal defense tree, that is going to be something people will not be sleeping on (except for glass cannons)
Could see things liek reduce dmg first hit, reduced CC time, greatly reduced first hit cc time, buffs while dodging and blocking, hp barrier and low hp, etc. Also armour types and magic protects are going to be a big deal and setting up your kit.
And if those things exist - cool. But then Steven's words would be a lie, or, even worse, they'd mean that nothing is fucking planned and he's just winging it all. I try to believe that there's at least some form of plan for their design and that Steven is presenting their plans for balancing that design. And this belief requires me to think that Steven accounts for any potential builds when talking about averages.
They've been designing, discussing and internally testing all the things they've talked about, so if they have no idea of what those plans can result in - we have a much bigger problem on our hands than "ttk is short".
I feel the intent is for outplaying people, catching them off guard, etc. Its not 2 groups fighting each other and snapped instantly, you has to be a level of skill there from a side to do it. That is the most reasonable line of thinking if u are talking about that type of content.
Which is why I suggested that tank effect. It would make parties fight the party as a whole, rather than removing the healer first and then just cleaning everyone else up.
Ie instant buff team, instant cc them them, make distance if possible, etc. Again if you don't have situational awareness and 4 dps can jump your cleric at the same time i don't know what to say.
It's the same "skill" you've been talking about. Executing a good ambush requires good knowledge of the surroundings and of the enemy's movement.
And in the case of ambushes the attackers always have an advantage (cause that's the entire point), so even if the fighting skill might be higher on the defending side - the ambushers could still come out on top.
Edit caravan showcase did not show the universal defense tree, that is going to be something people will not be sleeping on (except for glass cannons)
Could see things liek reduce dmg first hit, reduced CC time, greatly reduced first hit cc time, buffs while dodging and blocking, hp barrier and low hp, etc. Also armour types and magic protects are going to be a big deal and setting up your kit.
And if those things exist - cool. But then Steven's words would be a lie, or, even worse, they'd mean that nothing is fucking planned and he's just winging it all. I try to believe that there's at least some form of plan for their design and that Steven is presenting their plans for balancing that design. And this belief requires me to think that Steven accounts for any potential builds when talking about averages.
They've been designing, discussing and internally testing all the things they've talked about, so if they have no idea of what those plans can result in - we have a much bigger problem on our hands than "ttk is short".
It really doesn't mean he is lying it be you looking for a reasoning to find that to be true. This is a mmorpg with a lost of customization and builds with what we have been seeing so far. Steven had answered on again average players. You can not hear something being said and think there is no flexibility when the game has customization. You were not given a answer for all situations, the sooner you let that go the better off you will be.
They have a goal and that is what they are aiming for, it doesn't mean it is the be all end all. It also doesn't mean because you have defensive options you can survive for for extended period of time of being attacked without some element of skill.
But as i said about waves and such, you will have instances of advantage that will help protect you in different situations, and allow you to be able to react.
MMorpgs are not easy to be made, id be a bit more chill on the armchair game deving. I'm sure there goal is testing things making sure it feels fun with guesses for balance which than they will be fine tuning things. As i said before you are expecting them to know exactly how everything is going to go, it really is not that easy. Classes, augments, gearing, class skill trees, weapon skill trees, defense skill tress it isn't that simple....On top of all the people they have working on things its not all coming from one person, you can't account for everything you are being way too harsh. They legit are just trying to make a fun game. And i wouldn't say they are winging it, they are developing.
As i said before you are expecting them to know exactly how everything is going to go, it really is not that easy.
The only thing I expect from them is a bell curve of averages. That is, what I assume, Steven gave us. And at the peak of that curve is "10-15s ttk for dps vs dps and ~30s for tank/healer vs tank/healer".
I'm interested in high skill players or the ends of the curve. I'm interested in what the peak of the curve implies. Just as you keep mentioning that high skill players will make the ttk way longer - I keep mentioning that the current ttk implies situations where the ttk is 1s. Both are in accordance with the bell curve.
And I believe that having that peak at 20-25s would remove the chance of the left side of the curve to hit 1s. And if not remove, then at least HIGHLY decrease the chances of. And this was also the initially presented plan for the game's balance (the 30-60s ttk and all that). And so if the plan could change once, I see no reason why it couldn't change back.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If the line on the Wiki that said "Ashes of Creation will have a 30-60 second TTK" had instead, from the beginning, been 'Ashes of Creation will have a TTK that is a bit faster than most MMOs you're probably used to', a LOT of people who are here now would not be here.
Would there be different people? Maybe.
Yeah, this is not as clear of a dealbreaker for me as the Open Seas.
It's closer to Corruption in the sense that I'm skeptical I would enjoy such a quick TTK, but I would need to test it.
I'm not a fan of "Action MMORPGs" - where I consider those to have a speed of combat that feels to me like an FPS or a Hack and Slash. As opposed to having sufficient time to try contemplate and adjust tactics to synergize abilities with others in the group.
But, I'd have to test it to know. (Or watch actual gameplay rather than a dev demo.)
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My impression is that NiKr is saying the Dev team has to be discussing a variety of permutations - especially since they are all gamers and specifically MMORPG gamers/devs.
And there is a combat team and an experienced Lead Game Designer from one of the most popular MMORPGs.
They don't have to know exactly how everything is going to go. But they should be discussing things in the manner NiKr suggests.
As i said before you are expecting them to know exactly how everything is going to go, it really is not that easy.
The only thing I expect from them is a bell curve of averages. That is, what I assume, Steven gave us. And at the peak of that curve is "10-15s ttk for dps vs dps and ~30s for tank/healer vs tank/healer".
I'm interested in high skill players or the ends of the curve. I'm interested in what the peak of the curve implies. Just as you keep mentioning that high skill players will make the ttk way longer - I keep mentioning that the current ttk implies situations where the ttk is 1s. Both are in accordance with the bell curve.
And I believe that having that peak at 20-25s would remove the chance of the left side of the curve to hit 1s. And if not remove, then at least HIGHLY decrease the chances of. And this was also the initially presented plan for the game's balance (the 30-60s ttk and all that). And so if the plan could change once, I see no reason why it couldn't change back.
When i say high skill ceiling that means there is larger grey area between players. That means some will be able to stretch to 2 seconds, 4+ etc. OF course builds can make that vary higher to different degrees. Meaning certain situations you could have a higher or lower ttk. (ie first attack doing less dmg to you)
Again you keep glossing over average being mentioned.
They don't have to know exactly how everything is going to go. But they should be discussing things in the manner NiKr suggests.
Yep. If my non-professional-designer ass can sit in a chair and come up with a few dozen ways to balance combat and then try and imagine how things would influence each other - Intrepid should be MILES ahead of me in terms of that imagination, not only because they're professional designers who have been doing this for a living for decades, but also because they've had years of playtesting all of those ideas at all stages of the game's development, so they even have a way more practical image of how the encounter would go down if a thing was tweaked or an effect was added.
Now obviously a broader testing would show more details and more applications of those effects, but that's simply perfecting the bell curve rather than suddenly completely flipping the devs' testing upside down.
And if Intrepid have not done all that imagining - then what in the fuck have they been doing the last 7 years? I'd prefer to believe that they have imagined that stuff, have potentially tested that stuff, Steven oversaw (or at least got a report on) that stuff and then he told us the average ttk from their testing/imagining.
Again you keep glossing over average being mentioned.
Mag, the only damn thing I've been talking about is averages. "Bell curve" is a near-definition of "average". Where in the hell am I "glossing over it"?
Again you keep glossing over average being mentioned.
Mag, the only damn thing I've been talking about is averages. "Bell curve" is a near-definition of "average". Where in the hell am I "glossing over it"?
Average skill is not the only thing, average gear is what he had directly mentioned.
You aren't including everything, else u would have a break down on each element and how it effects ttk liek ive been doing.
If you can dodge attack u can extend ttk, if you can GEAR to REDUCE certain dmg types you can extend TTK, Party comp can also Reduce TTK.
By this logic a player putting gear on as they level would have a lower TTK than 10 seconds because its otu outfitted against player dmg types.
Ah, it's one of those times where you try to go deeper into a topic and tell others that they haven't gone deep enough?
Yes, I didn't go deep enough (especially if you completely disregard my post to Depraved). I'm looking at a GAME-WIDE AVERAGE. Literally everything in the game from "lvl1s pvping each other right as they start the game" to "lvl1 char fighting lvl50 fully max char".
The average situation across all of those, in the long run, will be "somewhat equally-progressed players fighting each other", which is exactly what Steven gave the example for.
The entire point of "average" is to include all the things and then point out what the middle point indicates.
You aren't including everything, else u would have a break down on each element and how it effects ttk liek ive been doing.
If you can dodge attack u can extend ttk, if you can GEAR to REDUCE certain dmg types you can extend TTK, Party comp can also Reduce TTK.
By this logic a player putting gear on as they level would have a lower TTK than 10 seconds because its otu outfitted against player dmg types.
Ah, it's one of those times where you try to go deeper into a topic and tell others that they haven't gone deep enough?
Yes, I didn't go deep enough (especially if you completely disregard my post to Depraved). I'm looking at a GAME-WIDE AVERAGE. Literally everything in the game from "lvl1s pvping each other right as they start the game" to "lvl1 char fighting lvl50 fully max char".
The average situation across all of those, in the long run, will be "somewhat equally-progressed players fighting each other", which is exactly what Steven gave the example for.
The entire point of "average" is to include all the things and then point out what the middle point indicates.
Ok we can go this route than sure. So feel he is taking the average of everything into his example from lvl 1-50. So are you of the mind set an average gear player that is lvl 10, an average geared player that is lvl 35 and a averaged gear scored player of lvl 50 have the same TTk or do not based on their progression in the game?
So are you of the mind set an average gear player that is lvl 10, an average geared player that is lvl 35 and a averaged gear scored player of lvl 50 have the same TTk or do not based on their progression in the game?
I expect the ttk to become faster at higher lvls, so the currently presented ttk (at supposedly "middle lvls") would be even shorter at max lvl.
If Intrepid decide to give us way more defensive tools than offensive - cool, I'd be all for that. But from all the game's I've seen - the higher the lvl, the faster you can kill your opponent.
So are you of the mind set an average gear player that is lvl 10, an average geared player that is lvl 35 and a averaged gear scored player of lvl 50 have the same TTk or do not based on their progression in the game?
I expect the ttk to become faster at higher lvls, so the currently presented ttk (at supposedly "middle lvls") would be even shorter at max lvl.
If Intrepid decide to give us way more defensive tools than offensive - cool, I'd be all for that. But from all the game's I've seen - the higher the lvl, the faster you can kill your opponent.
I expect it to be longer in different situations based on builds, team comp and skill. And this is the core of all the pages of our disagreement.
Then i guess we will see if it becomes like bdo more extreme dmg scaling over defense or not. Which means people go evasion builds and have higher ttk.
Then i guess we will see if it becomes like bdo more extreme dmg scaling over defense or not. Which means people go evasion builds and have higher ttk.
Or it could go the way of L2 and only the rogues would have high enough evasion to evade a lot of attacks, though even then only when they're using short-but-strong buffs for evasion.
Also, in L2 mages didn't even miss, unless you were attacking someone who was several levels above you.
And I'm sure there are other games where evasion wasn't as insane as it seemingly was in BDO.
But I would also count such evasion as "a defensive tool", so that's already smth I'd be fine with. I'd just hope that building high into evasion means giving up other stats.
Then i guess we will see if it becomes like bdo more extreme dmg scaling over defense or not. Which means people go evasion builds and have higher ttk.
Or it could go the way of L2 and only the rogues would have high enough evasion to evade a lot of attacks, though even then only when they're using short-but-strong buffs for evasion.
Also, in L2 mages didn't even miss, unless you were attacking someone who was several levels above you.
And I'm sure there are other games where evasion wasn't as insane as it seemingly was in BDO.
But I would also count such evasion as "a defensive tool", so that's already smth I'd be fine with. I'd just hope that building high into evasion means giving up other stats.
No clue there is not enough gearing info out on this game, so i hold back from saying other things until i know more. Even by the end of alpha 2 we might have a better idea but we honestly will still all be noobs. In BDO atleast you didn't notice evasion till you were geared and hit a certain mark that made people miss almost all attacks. Though it eventually got nerfed.
I would say, its hard for Nikr to be taken seriously, when you read his name out loud.
Yes, my nickname tends to remind americans (or usa-brainrotted people) about their shitty history, even though my nickname has nothing to do with anything related to said history.
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ShadowVenMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah I agree with the OP. I'm not a fan of the quick TTK's. However, I do trust steven and their team. He said they did in-house testing on it and said that the previous TTK time was "not fun". Maybe the way they are developing the game could have it become a better thing, who knows. If they wanted to drop it from the 30 sec to approx 1min, I would've liked it to be around 20-30 seconds instead of the 10-15secs.
Comments
Kind of hard to debate what will feel good (until we play), at this point it really is about preferences. I'm not saying he should want a different preference, but the idea is that the times can be longer if you are skilled. Which if one wants longer ttk that is a good thing.
You are right in the fact different people enjoy different things. So messaging can draw different people, but it is development so nothing is really set in stone that early. For me i understand that both for things I like and don't liek and expect changes (ie i dont agree with mass res, i made my point. But devs plan to have it in some form so ill play it and then give more feed back after).
My main issue as i said in my post was this information going around that the devs have planned for the combat, group compositions, player itemization and skill kits, universal defense skill tree (in development) and saying the ttk is based off all that and will only be 10-15. Which was clearly not true based off the exact quotes i pulled.
People should like what they like though, but I feel the main core of people won't say anything until they see the game in a more complete state. But know knows maybe alpha 2 will start to draw in more people to start talking on reddit / discords.
Steven has stated about being coordinated and targeting someone you will be able to kill them. It is reasonable to believe with larger sizes you won't need to be as coordinated do to all the dmg output 9but could have a lot more deaths in the process of it on your own side).
Again this is where the issue is and why i feel you should be walking that back. You can't make a statement all future designs will be like x and X. If a tank uses a skill to buff you while you are using defensive skills and have a defensive build up, that doesn't mean you are going to die instantly.
For the game to account for all that you would have to be dying in 1-2 hits without any buffs / build support. There is going to be points based on your kit where you will be more empowered and do to being able to dodge some attacks, negate all dmg completely. If there is a skill ceiling that means there is a certain amount of leeway for players to not just die instantly and be able to react in a raid setting.
If we are talkin about a 8v8 group setting we have to look at all the skills that can help kite, cc, increase defense, heal, etc. That would be the most honest disccusion as you can know somewhat of the upper level on survivability.
Ie if a dps is coming for someone and they get their dmg reduced by 30%, and the target they are attacking is having a defensive buff and heals. What is the dmg that dps is doing for the TTk at that point. if it takes the DPS 5-7 seconds longer to be able to kill the person (is that dps the dps is attacking now suddenly has a 20 sec ttk) and now he gets cc'd and is kited, what is the life of the target do to the heals is he back at full now. This kinds of things need to be kept in mind when you are talking about ttk and how it feels. And what it means about coordination and of course it can go the other way with good attacks setting themselves up..
If he did jump from 1v1 pvp all the way up to "a full raid targeting a single player" - I'm somewhat fine that, but then we'd need to talk about aoe scaling, and that's a whole different discussion that has already happened in the past.
But if he did mean party vs party when he said "group pvp" - then I'd prefer if ttk was longer. Mainly because there's 2 ways to take his ttk timings:
- the target stands around doing nothing
- the target uses everything in their toolkit to avoid dying
If 10-15 ttk is in the context of the first option - it means that a dps class dies in around 5-10 damaging abilities, purely on hp values (this estimate is based on average cast times shown on streams). This then implies that a party of people can use all their best damaging abilities at once and wipe a target "in a snap".This was my reasoning behind believing that Steven was talking about party pvp when he said group, and not "a raid is attacking a single person".
Now if we look at the second option - things are WAAAAY worse. Because now the target is moving and using defensive abilities - AND IT'S STILL A 10-15s TTK. This means that the hp values of that target are below the floor, which means that direct-damage's worth of ttk is probably like 4-5s.
And if THAT is the case - a party can wipe 2 people in a snap, if they get the jump on them.
Depraved and a few other people believe that Steven was talking about the first option (I don't remember which one you believe, cause this has been a long convo). And as I described above, Steven's "snap" still aligns with "a party targeting a single player in the enemy party" situation, and not just a "raid doing the same" one.
As for big defensive buffs or strong healing, that can supposedly save that single player - these would, first of all, only work if the defending side saw the attackers coming, but would also depend on what other tools the attackers have. Due to us not knowing any of those tools, I've been talking about attackers getting a jump on their target (which is usually the healer) and killing it "in a snap".
And I've already given my suggestion for how this perceived issue could be addressed and also gave my reasoning for seeing it as an issue (namely my L2 experience of healers "being snapped"). If you believe that Intrepid will go away from this "snapping" design and add defensive tools that prevent it - cool, you agree with me.
But this belief goes directly against what Steven has stated, which is why it's funny that you seem to agree with Steven, while disagreeing with me. If you think he was only talking about a "raid attacking a single target" - we'll just have to disagree on that interpretation.
bruh. 5-10 abilities, that's 5 -10 players to evaporate the target. even if everyone in the party attacked at the same time, you would only have 8 people attacking (also I highly doubt its 5 abilities). but anyway, how often are you going to get hit by the cleric, the bard, the tank, the summoner, the ranger, the mage, the rogue and the warrior at the exact same time? that means you would literally need to be in melee range of a full party to die that quick, so even with a higher ttk, you will most likely not survive anyways. and they would still need to click and hit f1 at the exact same time. if someone is a second late, you get healed.
that also means all the supports stopped supporting and started dpsing. if you only count the dps in the party (4) that's four abilities. you have time to get healed or do something, and that's if you are a squishy dps in melee range. you also have to consider that you might need to set up your powerful skills using normal attack combos, like make your target bleed to increase your backstab damage, etc. i doubt people will die in the blink of an eye in 8v8. they might die after the kill has been set up, which might take more than 10-15 seconds.
I highly doubt that will see people of equal level and gear getting one shotted by a single coordinated F1 of 4 people in a party vs party. when you add a second, a third or even a fourth party, etc. that will happen for sure. but not in 8v8
So far we've seen that mages/healers are at lower hp values than melee chars (~1k compared to 1.5k). Leveling higher obviously gives more hp (lvl25 mage from the last showcase had 3k hp), but I'd assume that damage increases with lvl as well, so the only assumption I can make here is that ttk will remain similar (or potentially that is the exact ttk Steven was talking about).
Snipe from the caravan showcase did almost 400 dmg to a tank. Steven was lvl25 there (against assumedly lvl15 people), so let's assume it does 200 at lvl15 (everyone else in Steven's party did ~400, so I assume they were lvl25s too). At 200 dmg, that's 1/8 of a tank's hp and 1/5 of a healer's.
I'd imagine a strong long cast mage nuke has a similar dmg value. A rogue attack from stealth could potentially do even more, but let's say it's the same, but it obviously requires being in melee (but we have stealth). So even in these assumptions, that's already 3/5 of a healer's hp from just 3 dps characters.
I'd assume cleric/summoner/bard/tank can all use some ranged attack (either ability or bow) and warrior could be the first one to initiate into a stun synergy with a relatively low dmg value. Even if bow shots + stun do ~200 collective dmg - the stun would still provide just enough time to finish off the healer "in a snap".
And again, this is not counting any potential dps augments or cleric/bard/summoner having range abilities that are stronger than a simple bow shot.
Any potential buffs from either side can be disregarded cause they either balance each other out, or Steven took them into account when giving his timings.
To me this sounds like the most basic optimal surprise attack on an enemy party. I've seen COUNTLESS such attacks in L2 by archer/mage parties. Hell, even dagger parties did this through stealth. And all of what I said was in the context of an "one of each" party composition and not any potentially more dpsey setups of "as many archers as you can get".
So again, this was my thought process behind believing that Steven meant "party vs party".
The point I'm trying to drive home is its not white or black there is grey area in the game. They have a average ttk they are aiming for with general balancing, but skill and party composition is going to affect that as well. You need to accept that is going to be playing a role and they can't just give a exact answer for that because its impossible.
A rough attacking another rouge but one as the armour type to counter them but in physcial and element, and whatever effect will naturally do much less dmg. We need to accept the fact that we can't say they are saying players are using everything in their kit that is not possible. You aren't going to be expected to have everytinhg all the time as an average, you aren't also going to have every single party composition or piece of gear on you, nor is every opponent going to land every hit or account for you dodging skills. It is not realistic of you to expect that kind of answer even more so during development hence you won't get a answer for that. Again there is going to be tons of grey space.
To the comment about Steven talking about focusing people, id agree as those are his words and intent for the game. But as i said before CONTEXT matters, who is in your comp, do you notice them or some of your team, are you CD's on or off, your builds etc. If you are caught off guard and not using any skills ya you will end up dying, if you see them and you are skilled you might be able to reserve the situation and out play them. If you are bad and can't react and turn buffs, skills, etc on then you might get thanos snapped ya.
I feel the intent is for outplaying people, catching them off guard, etc. Its not 2 groups fighting each other and snapped instantly, you has to be a level of skill there from a side to do it. That is the most reasonable line of thinking if u are talking about that type of content.
Yes we don't know the tools but i expect there to be plenty of tools on both sides, and why situational awareness is important, as well as positioning. It opens up the room to be able to make big plays when it comes to pvp..
I view things from a pvp mind set on how I'd see things going based on my pass experiences. So when i hear certain things like snapped I'm going to ask how that would happen in an actual engagement. On top of my belief people are going to be able to have a chance to react (but that is also a grey area). If you get caught off guard and let a group of 4 people freely buff up and target you and take out your healer, than its not looking for for your group. You need to be able to react just as quickly as you are getting attacked, even if you get caught off guard you should know what their plan would be and who you need to protect.
Ie instant buff team, instant cc them them, make distance if possible, etc. Again if you don't have situational awareness and 4 dps can jump your cleric at the same time i don't know what to say.
*Edit caravan showcase did not show the universal defense tree, that is going to be something people will not be sleeping on (except for glass cannons)
Could see things liek reduce dmg first hit, reduced CC time, greatly reduced first hit cc time, buffs while dodging and blocking, hp barrier and low hp, etc. Also armour types and magic protects are going to be a big deal and setting up your kit.
It's the same "skill" you've been talking about. Executing a good ambush requires good knowledge of the surroundings and of the enemy's movement.
And in the case of ambushes the attackers always have an advantage (cause that's the entire point), so even if the fighting skill might be higher on the defending side - the ambushers could still come out on top.
And if those things exist - cool. But then Steven's words would be a lie, or, even worse, they'd mean that nothing is fucking planned and he's just winging it all. I try to believe that there's at least some form of plan for their design and that Steven is presenting their plans for balancing that design. And this belief requires me to think that Steven accounts for any potential builds when talking about averages.
They've been designing, discussing and internally testing all the things they've talked about, so if they have no idea of what those plans can result in - we have a much bigger problem on our hands than "ttk is short".
It really doesn't mean he is lying it be you looking for a reasoning to find that to be true. This is a mmorpg with a lost of customization and builds with what we have been seeing so far. Steven had answered on again average players. You can not hear something being said and think there is no flexibility when the game has customization. You were not given a answer for all situations, the sooner you let that go the better off you will be.
They have a goal and that is what they are aiming for, it doesn't mean it is the be all end all. It also doesn't mean because you have defensive options you can survive for for extended period of time of being attacked without some element of skill.
But as i said about waves and such, you will have instances of advantage that will help protect you in different situations, and allow you to be able to react.
MMorpgs are not easy to be made, id be a bit more chill on the armchair game deving. I'm sure there goal is testing things making sure it feels fun with guesses for balance which than they will be fine tuning things. As i said before you are expecting them to know exactly how everything is going to go, it really is not that easy. Classes, augments, gearing, class skill trees, weapon skill trees, defense skill tress it isn't that simple....On top of all the people they have working on things its not all coming from one person, you can't account for everything you are being way too harsh. They legit are just trying to make a fun game. And i wouldn't say they are winging it, they are developing.
I'm interested in high skill players or the ends of the curve. I'm interested in what the peak of the curve implies. Just as you keep mentioning that high skill players will make the ttk way longer - I keep mentioning that the current ttk implies situations where the ttk is 1s. Both are in accordance with the bell curve.
And I believe that having that peak at 20-25s would remove the chance of the left side of the curve to hit 1s. And if not remove, then at least HIGHLY decrease the chances of. And this was also the initially presented plan for the game's balance (the 30-60s ttk and all that). And so if the plan could change once, I see no reason why it couldn't change back.
It's closer to Corruption in the sense that I'm skeptical I would enjoy such a quick TTK, but I would need to test it.
I'm not a fan of "Action MMORPGs" - where I consider those to have a speed of combat that feels to me like an FPS or a Hack and Slash. As opposed to having sufficient time to try contemplate and adjust tactics to synergize abilities with others in the group.
But, I'd have to test it to know. (Or watch actual gameplay rather than a dev demo.)
And there is a combat team and an experienced Lead Game Designer from one of the most popular MMORPGs.
They don't have to know exactly how everything is going to go. But they should be discussing things in the manner NiKr suggests.
When i say high skill ceiling that means there is larger grey area between players. That means some will be able to stretch to 2 seconds, 4+ etc. OF course builds can make that vary higher to different degrees. Meaning certain situations you could have a higher or lower ttk. (ie first attack doing less dmg to you)
Again you keep glossing over average being mentioned.
Now obviously a broader testing would show more details and more applications of those effects, but that's simply perfecting the bell curve rather than suddenly completely flipping the devs' testing upside down.
And if Intrepid have not done all that imagining - then what in the fuck have they been doing the last 7 years? I'd prefer to believe that they have imagined that stuff, have potentially tested that stuff, Steven oversaw (or at least got a report on) that stuff and then he told us the average ttk from their testing/imagining.
Average skill is not the only thing, average gear is what he had directly mentioned.
That average includes everything, skill, gear, lvls, whateverthefuckelse.
You aren't including everything, else u would have a break down on each element and how it effects ttk liek ive been doing.
If you can dodge attack u can extend ttk, if you can GEAR to REDUCE certain dmg types you can extend TTK, Party comp can also Reduce TTK.
By this logic a player putting gear on as they level would have a lower TTK than 10 seconds because its otu outfitted against player dmg types.
Yes, I didn't go deep enough (especially if you completely disregard my post to Depraved). I'm looking at a GAME-WIDE AVERAGE. Literally everything in the game from "lvl1s pvping each other right as they start the game" to "lvl1 char fighting lvl50 fully max char".
The average situation across all of those, in the long run, will be "somewhat equally-progressed players fighting each other", which is exactly what Steven gave the example for.
The entire point of "average" is to include all the things and then point out what the middle point indicates.
Ok we can go this route than sure. So feel he is taking the average of everything into his example from lvl 1-50. So are you of the mind set an average gear player that is lvl 10, an average geared player that is lvl 35 and a averaged gear scored player of lvl 50 have the same TTk or do not based on their progression in the game?
If Intrepid decide to give us way more defensive tools than offensive - cool, I'd be all for that. But from all the game's I've seen - the higher the lvl, the faster you can kill your opponent.
I expect it to be longer in different situations based on builds, team comp and skill. And this is the core of all the pages of our disagreement.
Then i guess we will see if it becomes like bdo more extreme dmg scaling over defense or not. Which means people go evasion builds and have higher ttk.
Also, in L2 mages didn't even miss, unless you were attacking someone who was several levels above you.
And I'm sure there are other games where evasion wasn't as insane as it seemingly was in BDO.
But I would also count such evasion as "a defensive tool", so that's already smth I'd be fine with. I'd just hope that building high into evasion means giving up other stats.
No clue there is not enough gearing info out on this game, so i hold back from saying other things until i know more. Even by the end of alpha 2 we might have a better idea but we honestly will still all be noobs. In BDO atleast you didn't notice evasion till you were geared and hit a certain mark that made people miss almost all attacks. Though it eventually got nerfed.
anyway...
nikr and mag sitting on a tree...
I would say, its hard for Nikr to be taken seriously, when you read his name out loud.
I DID IM NOT GETTING IT. HELP
it sounds like nicker?
wait...wait, no It ...