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[Feedback Request] Basic Range Weapon Attack Update and Ranger Demo Discussed in Sept. Livestream

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  • KaelinTV wrote: »
    First off, a bit disappointed with what was shown, it's not all doom and gloom. There are bright spots, but wasn't 100% thrilled, which I will get into. First to hit the major points in the requested information. The BIGGER and full thoughts in the last question asked.

    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?

    That there is substance even with autos. Movement reduction when autoing, the shortbow looked like it had none, which is not a good thing. I'd be happier if the reduction just isn't as large as the Longbow, but it visually looked like it had no reduction whatsoever, and was a rapid fire movement DPS, which is not a good thing imo.

    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?

    A general sense of the ranger would be traps, detection survival aspects. Movement abilities for relocating and distance dps, which this portion was portrayed well in the dev update.

    Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?

    Yes, absolutely. I believe Tera did an excellent system in all combat elements for action. Which I was hoping to see more in this reveal, instead of the pure tab target combat system we were shown. More details in full review below. For tab systems that still worked well, Lineage 2 always be a gem, the fact that you were rooted even during autos was good, especially considering the damage numbers I was seeing with the autos. If you can deal that much damage with autos, there should be downsides in movement when you attack, more details below.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?

    Absolutely, here are my full thoughts. What was done right, was the sound effects, the movement/repositioning skill, the look of the animations in shooting were done very well. Loved the arm shake when holding a shot to show the tensing, was very well done in the audio visual side.

    The wrong, I believe this is a full tab target system while masquerading in reticule mode. I was hoping for some tera action style elements in combat. Here are key factors in bullet points.

    A. There is no benefit in being in reticule mode. Judging by the angle of running and shooting, there is no point to stay in reticule mode and aiming. Considering you are slowed when moving backwards, being in action mode is actually worse to play. If you can position a mob at 90 degrees to your left or right and target locked, and just shoot away while running and changing direction sideways, this can be exploited and takes away from any root aspects of combat. For the hybrid system to work, I believe you need to have aiming elements. Otherwise it will just be a zoom all the way out, run and shoot WoW floaty combat....Which is not satisfying in the slightest.

    B. Shouldn't be able to jump and shoot. Even if this is a feature to the shortbow exclusively. I'm not sure if you can just run straight away from a locked target and auto with them at your back. But if your target has to be at your 3 or 9 o'clock to be able to attack, heck, even if it ends up being yo you have to face your target, I can already see the masses running away, jumping for momentum and turn shooting, rinse and repeat. This is pure WoW floatiness in combat which is just downright the wrong direction and breaks immersion, and this will be a realization with the current mechanics in place, so hope this gets rectified. The last thing I want to see are archers running and jumping, 180 turning to shoot quickly and running away again. This is the key factor of why tab target is bad if there is no rooting. You shouldn't get a full benefit of being able to DPS at high numbers, without having any counter play. Lineage 2 did this right, and it was tab target, all bow shots would root, and charges skills would take longer, but it gave time for gaining on the target. Now if the auto attacks were reduced in damage from what was displayed, and all the skills had a root element or forced duration slow, that would make it more bearable.

    C. The Snipe animation and idea of charging up your shot is good. Tera did this VERY well. The more you charged, the more damage, and higher levels of the skill had additional levels of charge which was great, had impact, great sounds, was good. But the key aspect was you had to aim. If the Snipe skill is a tab target, I don't have much faith in other skillshot related skills, if there is any planned. There HAS to be some aim skills, the one thing I despised from my previous experiences in older MMO's I've played, had to do with ranged tab target classes. I remember in Aion, being an assassin, and being perma knock backed and rooted from archers, they had no negative downsides since every skill would hit since it was tabbed base with no negative downsides. Massive damage, roots, sleep arrows, etc, yea you might resist a status effect or too, but with all the mobility, jump shooting, it was just downright bad gameplay. Or being jump kited while being applied with dots left and right by sorcs/summoners/mages, with no real means of counterplay as both myself and target, had the same run speed.

    Back on topic, but yea, need some actual skill shots. I'd be ok if the auto attacks were tab, but with lower damage than what was shown, as it was pretty high for auto attacks, with some sort of slowed down movement as a result, with snipe and other skills being aim based with a high damage. From the looks of the current setup, this is me speculating, I'm expecting AOE skills, all tab target attacks/skills atm...Which is quite upsetting.


    I know I can keep going on and citing references from other games I've experienced. But summing things up. It feels like their is no action side in the archer gameplay. It's a full fledged tab target system, but with reticule mode masquerading as action, which is not good. The only way I can see to solve this. Is to ensure you can not jump and shoot, you have to face your target to shoot an auto or skill, with 100% some form of movement reduction when auto attacking, or using a skill. The addition of actual skill shots that are not just AOE rain of arrows, as I believe that is a cop out to say "We have action combat" when it truly isn't....Tera did action combat VERY well, but the game had nothing else to offer sadly...Was hoping some inspiration could be gleamed from it, as it did melee and range combat in action exceedingly well, where info can be gleaned to help strengthen the action side of ashes.

    I do love the idea of locking onto a target for the the hybrid element of combat in action mode, that is smart, I Would of done that as well as I've brainstormed my ideal MMO combat system, but atm, there just is no benefit to the action side, at all, and will end up being a "Why are you not playing in tab mode?" being a reality, as there are negatives to playing in action mode. Which is the worst feeling to have, we already experience that in MMO's with "Ideal" builds, would suck to have that as an entire combat side of the game. Which at that point, game may as well be full tab, with which from prior community reactions from combat, is not what is wanted...So hopefully some compromises can be made to better blend the two...Which IMO, will require aiming skills.

    Based on the dev update, the outcry at the beginning on the lack of aiming, being silenced by and shunned by people in chat brown nosing....I'm hoping this plight reaches the right ears, as there was a very large amount of people disheartened during the stream. Hoping for a good representation here on the forums from the community...Cause I really think of Ashes as my ideal game, but I believe this to be a rather large flaw.

    Will edit to clean up my points as time goes on, but yea, just wanted to post this quickly, as my passionate nature towards ashes is pushing me forward to post and read the comments from others.

    This is a well done post, there needs to be some benefit to action combat and really this just displayed slightly moveable tab targeting and I'm disappointed in it. Especially since this game is supposed to be very heavy PvP oriented which is competitive gameplay and this is going to take away from it unless they change it.
  • Arthus DawnbreakerArthus Dawnbreaker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?

    - Unique abilities to the class and that a player can enjoy and show off, Impact, Power reflected in character stance and movement, audio queues that sound good, attack FX

    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?

    - Would love to see more movement skills making it easier to dodge and move away from enemies for better shots at letting your arrows fly. Would love to see different types of projectiles like elemental, maybe some spectral or some sort of magical attacks from the bow, Would love to see some melee close combat skills when you get to close which would be applied to your secondary sword, dagger weapons.
    - adding fire, ice, bleed, or poison to arrow attacks
    - I loved seeing the options of tab and action combat even though i'm more of a tab target player

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?

    - I'm excited what we saw with the "Airstrike" attack skill which makes the ranger a more fun class to play. It gives me Legolas vibes which is awesome!
    - I Loved seeing the elf ears peek through the hood this should also be applied to Horns as well.
    - I was also concerned about the name plates.They were very hard to read especially the red and black outlined font over the enemies.
    - was excited to see that obstacles like trees can block an arrow this will allow for some cool unique and challenging gameplay and tactics by using the environment as a shield. This should also be true for enemies trying to hit you but you stand behind a tree to not get hit by their projectiles.


    ONE MORE POINT: A healer is healing players and the enemy fires their arrows at the healer and the tank does and instant altered Charge attack instantly teleporting them in front of the healer taking the the arrow and blocking all damage for the healer. The hunter repositions with airstrike leaping into the air over the tank and healer trying to get behind them. the healer heals the tank. the ranger tries to quickly move around them in a 360 trying to get the best shot. This makes for a dynamic battle field and its ever moving and ever changing. not some boring stand still spam fest.

    This above example why i also think your should give the Ranger an ability called "360 Unload" where they burst run around their selected target and unload a plethora of arrows towards the target allowing a small open window of hopefully hitting the target when this deeply dynamic battle happens giving the ranger an upper hand for a short amount of time.

    I would also like to see more AOE arrow attacks maybe with an incendiary explosion AOE attack for example.

    Can't wait to play Ranger! Great Job Intrepid!
  • Ban_Ban_ Member
    edited September 2022
    I was looking forward to the ranger showcase as it is one of the classes I plan on picking. I have played MMOs since around 2005 till now. 17 years and I have played all sorts of tab target games but once I tried real action combat from Tera in 2012…it was just game changing and I never looked back or seen tab target the same. The skill needed with real action combat makes the game so much more rewarding, immersive, and overall much more realistic and engaging of an experience.

    The archer showcase today was not what I was expecting. The tab target takes the skill portion away and you end up relying on chance rather than using Invincibility-frames. It made the PVE seem boring and nowhere near as rewarding, as real action combat. The action combat that was displayed was not TRUE action combat as you just have to aim in the general direction and your arrow will still hit regardless if you are aiming directly at the target or not. That just takes away all the potential skill aspect from an MMO and makes it boring as you don’t actually have to aim, which does take away from the satisfaction of landing shots on enemies.

    Ashes of Creation Apocalypse had a much better combat system and I actually really enjoyed watching others play it because it looked so much more immersive and engaging. Being able to also zoom into a more first person POV with the bow in APOC was very cool and it just made the beauty of the game that much better as it showed a closer look to the beautiful graphics. The current gameplay as of today was very zoomed out and it wasn’t as immersive and it didn’t give the same immersion as APOC had. When APOC was out I was super hyped for this gameplay in an MMO! But seeing the current tab target and assisted action combat…was just underwhelming sadly.

    I understand there is a group of people who do like tab target and more of an assisted action combat, but times are changing and the new generations are going towards TRUE action combat as it makes gameplay much more enjoyable to watch. In TRUE action combat all the attacks that are being performed are skill based and not just assisted tab targeting where it will always lock attacks onto the enemy. If this game went back to the combat of APOC, as well as with how big of a map and content you guys have planned, this game will be a first of its kind. But as of right now truthfully, it just is a very beautiful game even at this stage of the game development, with a lot of content planned, but with the current combat…it just won’t be anywhere near what it could be if the gameplay went back to what was being shown during APOC.

    Overall I will still keep myself updated with this game and will continue to support it but the way the combat has shifted to tab target and assisted action combat is just saddening compared to what it was going towards. If anyone wants to answer a question: what is more satisfying? Seeing someone zoom in to a more first person POV and landing an amazing sniper shot on an unsuspecting enemy with actual aim needed or just seeing someone hover their mouse over a target and clicking a button knowing it will always auto lock-on hitting the target with a lack of skill required?

    Here is an example of what archer was going towards in Ashes of Creation Start watching video at 5:00 https://youtu.be/8vzIBfdzVQg?t=303
  • AshRenAshRen Member
    edited September 2022
    The audiovisual feedback from the bow was amazing, even thought I wasn't playing it I could tell that it felt good shot that bow.
    The air strike animation looked great, I'm really looking forward to see what other cool animations you guys made.

    If I were to point at something I didn't like, it would be the fact that some skills will require a target event if you're in action mode, it is understandable for certain skills like a resurrection or a buff or even air strike, but being in action mode and having to hard or soft-lock a target to be able to use certain skills diminish the advantage of point-blank shooting that action mode has in exchange for the inherent risk of missing the shot, but most importantly, it is very annoying to try to use or ready a skill for it to not activate because the moment you did it you were not looking at the target. What I want to say with this is, look very carefully at which skills absolutely require a target to be used or readied, so it won't break the gameplay loop with an unexpected lack of responsiveness.
  • GutzgoreGutzgore Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Holy crap that was some awesome combat in my opinion from the livestream.

    Here is what I really loved about it:
    -The fluidity of movement and combat together (the running, dodging, jumping and being able to fire and what looks like you will really feel in control)
    -Both tab and action combat styles. One thing I think AoC should consider and another benefit of having the ability to fire without a tabbed target is that you could potentially put things in the game that you need to manually fire at. Lets say your in a dungeon and there's this lever or something in the corner of the room. You have your ranged shoot it with the bow and bam a secret room opens up or the environment allows for a bridge to be made so you can continue forward or something like that. There's probably so much more you could do here.
    -The abilities were really good, I know they were the basic attacks mostly but more will come. I did love the air attack one! I hope to see more of this in the game! Makes it look so fun to play!!
    -The sounds and what seemed like the responsiveness and weight/impact of the attacks seemed really good. Hard to say without playing but from what I could tell it was awesome.
    -The two bows short and long was outstanding also. I feel this was perfect in design in how they are different.
    -Everything from the environment, the fog effects, the birds, the weather/wind, was all great! I absolutely love where this game is going.

    I do hope to see AoC put things like bleeds, poisons, slows, elements to attacks, traps, AOE's, enemy pushbacks and abilities like the air attack that can put some distance between you and the enemy. I also want to see escape abilities, stealth's or other abilities that allow to disengage from the combat or cool off aggro if you find you bit off more than you can chew PVE or PVP.

    Good lord I can't wait to play this game. I don't normally even play ranged, after seeing this though I think I'm going to have to play one!

    Overall YES the direction here is the right one. I honestly can't see anything I did not like about it.

    This is a great start! I think that giving the players the choice between tab and action is huge and having the fluidity of movement during combat, and the weapon styles (long and short bow) are probably the three really key parts here to begin with that I seen. The rest will come with refinement.

    Please keep up what you guys are doing and thank you for being so connected with the community. I have a lot of faith in you guys having been watching for a couple years now the progress your making.
  • It would be nice to see some kind of quiver or arrow draw animations. Seeing the bows simply being drawn back and fired with nothing in them takes away from the immersion a bit.
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Magic Man wrote: »
    I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say

    Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10?
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  • Idhalar AlBaieshIdhalar AlBaiesh Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Great stream and demo!

    -Making short and longbow have different playstyles is a great idea.

    -The targeting, both tab and action looks great, but it's hard to say without first hand experience.

    -The shortbow combat style looks perfect to me, very mobile, medium/close ranged, fast shots and bursty.

    -The sounds of both weapons are great.

    -The airstrike skill looks very nice, reminds me of some skills of bdo's ranger pre-awakening weapon.

    -The tab target part of the longbow combat seems very nice too, having less mobility and even being rooted in place seems like the correct idea. The draw-hold-loose motion holding the button looks and seems to feel great too, really impactful. Charging your skills in a longbow for full damage seems just right.

    -Having your selected target detached from your crosshair seems like an excellent idea in action combat mode.

    Now, some doubts:

    -Can arrows be dodged? Please don't make everything "homing arrows" that follow the target and always hit as long as you had your mouse over the character hitbox when you clicked, TESO did this and it felt horrible. Some skill that locks on a target and follows? Sure. But everything... Please no. I ask because the water attack spells from the shaman tracked their target.

    Intercepting and blocking them as Steven said is great specialy for tanks, but not being able to dodge them seems a little meh.

    -The action combat aspect of the longbow looked very underused in the demo. Please create some skills that make us aim and make them worth the effort. Snipe could be a perfect example, same with something like a penetrating shot, strong ccs or templated attacks.

    -What is the maximum range of the longbow? All the shots shown in the demo are extremely close range. At least the longbows should have a very, very long range. (Let us really snipe the targets pretty please?)

    -What is the max damage estimate of a longbow skill? Very related to the previous question. The longbow playstyle should allow slow and risky but hard hitting attacks from extreme distances. Hard to setup, hard to hit but very effective if you pull it off. A good longbowman should melt lightly armored enemies from very long distances (I'm likely playing a wizard or summoner so raining in my parade here, but it just seems right) and probably anyone being focused by 2 or 3 well coordinated archers should just explode.

    With all its problems New world managed to create an excellent longbow experience, believe it or not some "fps" elements fit perfectly fine in an mmo now that technology allow it. Yes, the skill ceiling is higher, but it's fun as hell and allows some very good players to really shine, we have tab target for those that don't like the challenge.




    Also:
    -The Environment, the minos and their lizardogs are amazing.
    - I can't stress enough the quality of the sound effects in these last videos, superb work.
    Only in silence the word, Only in dark the light, Only in dying life.
  • ThulfThulf Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    I always gravitate towards playing some kind of an archer, but almost always am forced to switch to a melee class because it's far superior in comparison.

    Obviously things are work in progress, I'm aware, but it's still feedback based on what's available now...
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
    Fluid animations and the accommodating impactful sounds.

    Animations looked fine, I suppose, but sound needs work in the case of long bow sounds. What I see on the screen doesn't exactly match with the sounds I feel like it should make. When a minotaur was hit, rather than an arrow hitting flesh it sounded more like a wooden mark was hit instead which made it feel like fighting an inanimate object throughout. Perhaps flesh is not good either, needs to pack more punch. Some of the killing shots had no impact sound effect at all, which felt very odd. Every arrow, no matter the distance traveled or whatever (influence of atmospheric conditions), sounded more or less exactly the same (monotone). The crit sound was just a slightly louder arrow hitting wooden mark with sometimes tambourine(?) in the mix. A charged attack impact sound was exactly the same as a normal attack impact sound, not nice.

    Short bow sounds get lost and mixed in the fast pace, so there the little details don't stand out as much.

    I know the sounds weren't the focus of this showcase, but I'm still pointing it out. That's how important sounds are to me.
    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
    I want to see either big crits or fast pace, but I also want to feel every shot through impactful sounds at the very least.

    Charged attacks especially should make for juicy crits. And if a charged attack didn't crit, it should still, perhaps, sound a tiny, tiny bit (not disproportionally so) juicier than a normal basic attack. If it sounds like too much or too different then it hinders the fluidity/flow of things, feeling off again on the other end of the spectrum.

    Short bow experience felt more right and satisfying in comparison to long bow just because the sound department was lacking overall.
    Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    New World basic attacks in action combat feel rewarding, but that's about it. Compared to melee combat the action combat bow mechanics felt far inferior imo.
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
    Sounds were lackluster in the case of long bow showcase, as I mentioned earlier.

    I like the action combat soft lock with the indicator... it seems to solve so many problems plaguing the bow mechanics in pure action combat games where you either land every shot or become irrelevant while a melee just has to press a button to land the hits with 100% accuracy dealing just as much if not more damage. Positioning and all that is the same for both classes, only bow class has extra steps imbedded to it. Melee even gets gap-closer abilities, so the range advantage is null in most cases.

    The pace of short bow auto-attacks felt off. I prefer consistency throughout. A pause in the middle of just firing feels off, like you instantly start to question if you got stunned or whatnot, every time, when in a fight. Takes away a tiny bit of control over the character. I personally don't like inconsistency there... eww.
  • KaelinTVKaelinTV Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Magic Man wrote: »
    I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say

    Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10?

    They did quote and state they agreed with my post whole heartedly, so hopefully that'll shed some light if he doesn't respond.
  • I really liked how mobile the Ranger could be while fighting, I was worried that they would be locked in place while using all their abilities which would make them much easier to kill and unnecessarily harder to play.

    As for the ammo, I really like that as standard no ammo is used. That's why I never played with the musket or bow in New World and kept any ranged interests to stuff that used mana as it regenerates. I did like what Steven mentioned about getting a quiver of 'buff ammunition' (I forget what he called it) so that once equipped your next X attacks (X = number of arrows in the quiver) would get a bonus. Your could make these arrows do extra damage or apply different effects on the target such as slows. It's similar to what I would expect from a Rogue being able to have a 'salve bottle' equipped so the next X attacks for them (X = number of salve bottle uses) would do different types of poison effects.
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  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2022
    Was kinda disappointing. I've been looking forward to seeing Ranger/Bow gameplay for years and was excited to see how you'd do it after Apocalypse since I really enjoyed the Bows in Apoc. I was really hoping that action use of Bows would be incentivised when it came to basic attacks but it seems to me like there's next to no reason to not just use tab basic attacks.

    I obviously understand Ashes is meant to be a hybrid combat system, and was fully expecting something along the lines of 50% tab spells and 50% action spells, but the basic attacks seem to be basically just tab, even when Steven entered "action mode" with the bow the spells locked on to the targets and honed in rather than missing, for example here when Steven purposefully aims above the monster yet the spell still hones in. https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=1286

    I just hope that full action use of the bows basic attacks can be incentivised. Simply spamming Q while tab locked on just isn't fun, nor does it feel rewarding compared to landing shot after shot with action.

    The best middle ground and the true hybrid way to do it would be to have ranged basic attacks be mandatory "soft lock action" like was shown in the stream. You have to aim a bit, but you get leeway and your arrows will hone in if the reticle is close enough to the target. That way it's not full action and not full tab, a true hybrid

    The animations, art, and sound were great. Loved the look of the Air Strike move.
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  • Ok basic attacks are tab target, but at least the majority of abilities should be skill based or this will be the old monotonous combat from 20 years ago...
  • Lark WyllLark Wyll Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nice demo.

    I liked the Aerial Assault ability. Pretty slick. I don't plan on playing as a ranger but most I would think that do would want the flexibility to flip backwards as a retreat while still doing output. Maybe give it directional flexibility instead of character facing. Could be sick if the camera zoomed in and actually did an inverted flip along with your character. Too much motion sickness?

    The strafing while attacking at range looks pretty good. Maybe a penalty for moving, like a reduction in power, etc.

    The green swirl effect I could do without. Its too large and unnecessary. It doesn't convey what it does with the animation. That could be 100 different buffs. I'd prefer to see the held weapon (bow) glow to show the power up/charge mechanic it performs.

    The high pitch whistling of one of the specific attacks is grating and would make me mute all sound effects in game if playing with a bow in my party. I'd alter that sound to be more silent with a louder thud of impact. This would also play into the silent stealthy ranger playstyle rather than announce your presence with the loud whistling shriek.

    Alternatively could provide options to mute certain weapons but that seems tedious. I like pleasant audio sounds, maybe that comes from the Zelda player in me growing up idk. Anything grating from the player side I would smooth out as they are going to be highly repeated in game play and start to rub on the player over time.

    The fire rate seemed very fast with only a few abilities. For pvp this is concerning.

    After logging a lot of play time in New World and playing older games with jump styled combat its a major red flag for me seeing so much somersaults and space bar jumps woven into combat. I'm actually more against jump combat with space bar being woven inbetween abilities as I hate the look and feel of that combat style. Please do not go the way of attack, jump, ability, jump, ability 2, dodge roll.

    New World's combat is abysmal because of the infinite kiting. Please minimize how often players can jump in combat and make it so that there is no benefit to avoiding melee attacks or abilities to it. If space bar hopping is the combat meta in pvp its going to be a major turn off for me.

    Is jumping and dodge rolling as shown in this video going to help players avoid damage? When we played I only remember being able to roll away once at a low frequency, that was fine.

    I want to see glass cannon ranged classes not be able to kite infinitely and have actual tradeoffs with lower mobility for their ranged advantage, or have to get close enough to do their damage that they risk getting locked down.

    Getting a bit worried with how much mobility is shown in the demo's. Mage warping infinitely and now the jumping, rolling, aerial assault of bows. Idk some of it I enjoy a lot but I hope it's balanced out and fights aren't infinite kite fests.

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  • Something everyone should take into account is the fact that we only saw 3 abilities. There is a very good probability that there will also be abilities that are "skill shots" and not tab targeted at all. That being said, I personally am not at all against a more tab-targeted focus for ranged combat to avoid an FPS or third person shooter feel, though that can also be avoided simply by not having headshots be a thing.
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  • KaelinTVKaelinTV Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Something everyone should take into account is the fact that we only saw 3 abilities. There is a very good probability that there will also be abilities that are "skill shots" and not tab targeted at all. That being said, I personally am not at all against a more tab-targeted focus for ranged combat to avoid an FPS or third person shooter feel, though that can also be avoided simply by not having headshots be a thing.

    One could definitely hope. But when a high damage snipe ability is tab target, it raises alarms for action players. Along with the exploitable nature of the current system for tab, makes me worry. Don't get me wrong, I have played both tab and action, have loved both. But there are some red flags with this factor alone, which is sad panda =*(. But considering this is an alpha, and they are asking for advice, this be precisely the forum/discussion to air everything out.
  • Magic ManMagic Man Member
    edited October 2022
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Magic Man wrote: »
    I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say

    Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10?

    Hello Vaknar! I'm happy to see you wanted to know why I rated it 4/10. Normally I'd write a review as long as Kaelin's, but I was rather lazy. Thankfully he explained it all in detail in his post. To clarify tho, for tab targeting standards, the ranged basic attacks were at least 9/10 (as they felt impactful and looked good with excellent sound feedback). The environment and all the other visual bits were great, as always, so I didn't mention those (I got used to the quality over four years). For hybrid/action standards tho, I had to rate it 4/10 (see, almost half points for tab but no true action, hence 0 points). The most distasteful thing about this game design route, in my opinion, was Steven admitting there being no true benefit to using the action reticle mode...(and the combat being more tab targeting oriented). Hopefully, my answer satisfies you ❤️ For more detail, please read Kaelin's post.
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  • KaelinTV wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Something everyone should take into account is the fact that we only saw 3 abilities. There is a very good probability that there will also be abilities that are "skill shots" and not tab targeted at all. That being said, I personally am not at all against a more tab-targeted focus for ranged combat to avoid an FPS or third person shooter feel, though that can also be avoided simply by not having headshots be a thing.

    One could definitely hope. But when a high damage snipe ability is tab target, it raises alarms for action players. Along with the exploitable nature of the current system for tab, makes me worry. Don't get me wrong, I have played both tab and action, have loved both. But there are some red flags with this factor alone, which is sad panda =*(. But considering this is an alpha, and they are asking for advice, this be precisely the forum/discussion to air everything out.

    I can agree to make the snipe an action skill shot. Even having it zoom into either a directly over the shoulder close 3rd person or even 1st person POV while charging.
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  • In my opinion I believe tab targeting for basic attacks+charge up for increased damage, with 25%tab/75% action abilities is the way to go for a fluid hybrid system when it comes to ranged attacks.
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  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
    Mechanical proficiency, like all weapons. Player efficacy and ability, reliance on my ability to hit my shots. Precision, combat geometry, and timing are important factors.

    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?

    I like very straight forward, not overly gaudy or flashy. I don't care for that Air Strike attack because its so over the top and doesn't fit a survivalist at all. Tracking, traps, marksmanship, evasive maneuvers, camouflage are all hallmark traits of a Ranger.

    Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?

    Conquerors Blade, New World, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy wars. I like where the dev team is going with the snipe charged shot, but drive it home and make it a proper snipe.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype.

    The combat influence from GW2 and ArcheAge is heavily noticeable in the preview, in a way that it does not seem like Ashes has any influence from any other titles in regard to combat or even its own creation in Apocalypse.
  • Really enjoyed the livestream's rework of ranged combat. I've played many MMORPGs and even more RPGs. From experience, fast paced combat is superior to slow grinds. I love the combat pacing shown in the livestream, though I feel enemies should hit slightly harder. I think fast, skilled combat against punishing enemies is more fun then health sponges with basic mechanics (for solo quests). One thing I am curious about is whether eneies will "evade"/dodge if you are attacking them from a position they cannot reach? One thing that is a major hate in WOW is evasion. You work hard to gain a good vantage point on your opponents as a ranged class, only to find out you have to lose it. This really breaks immersion and strategy of ranged classes.

    I did notice in the stream that arrows are not present on drawback, nor are weapons visually evident on the character (when not being used). I am hoping these would be added later in development to increase immersion. Showing all equipped gear on the character as an option would be amazing. I really like the immersion brought to games like the Witcher 3, Skyrim (modded) and Fable 3, that give the idea of an adventurer because you can see all your characters gear at all times.


    Positives:
    - Fact paced combat
    - Both action and tab target options available
    - Visuals of combat look great!

    Negatives:
    - Enemies could be more punishing (especially if a ranger gets charged by a minotaur, they should die or take at least 2/3 of a medium/light armour wearer's health. Notes - not heavy armour)
    - No arrows are visible on drawback (this breaks immersion)
    - Weapons not seen on body unless being wielded.

    Questions:
    - Will our main-hand, off-hand and ranged weapons be visible on our character? (eg Skyim SE mods "All Geared Up Derivitive") (I would love to be able to see all my gear on my character, to give a real sense of an adventurer).
    - Will classes like the rogue, be able to weild shortbows and longbows like the ranger?
    - ^Extension: and will rogues and warriors have access to shortbow and longbow skill trees or are they available to rangers?
    - Will you be able to attack enemies from a high vantage point (the tower) that they may not be able to reach by foot, without them "evading" like in WOW and other MMORPGs?


    Please keep up the amazing work!
    Sincerely,
    Len614

  • VeeshanVeeshan Member
    edited October 2022
    Action combat definitely needs to be slightly stronger than tab target mode, tab target is 100% hit chance for example however action combat there always chance you to miss you attack normally so you gotta take into account that if the average players misses 1 out of every 10 attacks in action combat then they other 9 arrows need to do 10% more dmg to take into account of players missing in action combat especialy when it comes to PvP where players move more irately which will cause the miss rate to increase.

    other option is to add a inherited RNG miss chance for tab target mode like other games like WoW but in action mode there no RNG miss chance on attacks.

    Either way i feel it something that needs to be looked into when players get there hands in the game to see how it functions specifically in PvP


    Edit: I kinda wish that players could body block shots mainly tanks to shield allies that are low but doesnt seem to be the case although maybe you can have block ability from tanks intercept projectile skills that pass through them so tanks could do this would be a nice addition i feel

    mobs seem a little to weak atm, also mino charge doesnt seem to be very impactful here maybe it not woprking as intended currently but it didnt seem to do much i feel charge attacks should be more impactful like a stun/knock down or knockback to give if more impact feel. Would be cool if charge attacks did a knock back/down on targets with less than X armor (Based on chargers weight/str vs targets armor level) so heavy armor targets wont be affected to much by a charge maybe short stun however light/mid range targets might be get knocked back onto the ground.
  • DummoDummo Member
    edited October 2022
    I like the direction Ashes is going with the hybrid combat.

    - I do hope there'll be damaging action/aimed abilities (skillshots), other than just non-damaging and AoE ones. Switching camera modes every few seconds could be tedious though, assuming your screen isn't (always) centered on your main target when you're in the tab targeting camera mode. An idea for this is to also be able to fire the skillshots from the tab targeting camera mode in the form of a ground decal that moves with your cursor, similar to skillshots in League of Legends.
    - I hope the difference between tab target combat and action combat will be balanced, this including ranged combat vs melee combat, but also the ranged basic attack tab target camera mode vs reticle camera mode. Normally this is done by giving the action combat a slight damage bonus.
    - I also hope we're able to block/dodge shots even when they're locked on to with tab target.
    - Miss chance (evasion & accuracy). There will be RNG involved regarding these stats, atleast for tab targeted combat. To not completely disregard these stats for action combat, this is an idea from @Noaani I agree with; the higher the discrepancy between one player or mob's accuracy stat and their target's evasion stat, the further away you need to dodge for it to miss, and/or the earlier you need to get your block up in order to successfully block it. This gives both players a reason to increase their stats (key in an MMO), but means the player with more dodge/block skill is in a position to not increase that stat as high, rely on their skill as a player a little more, and focus their gear selection in other areas.

    Also, the birds not ending up moving when Steven seemed to build up to it :D
    Dark Knight Dummo

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  • I honestly believe if you choose to play action combat, you should have a higher advantage such as longer range or higher damage. Because ain't no way someone cheesing with tab target should have same advantage as action combat...
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  • SnekkersSnekkers Member
    edited October 2022
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?

    good sound effects, good visuals, no rooting in place, some even small skill to it, not just braindead holding one button

    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?

    The popular opinion about ranger is that its boring broken class. Its because most popular rangers are full tab, so u just hold attack and u spam all ur abilties at the target for dps.. its get boring really fast, some even small work to it makes u invested and keeps u in game

    Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?

    From all games i think skyrim, but from mmos? I think new world is the closest that i liked the most. I know that its too much action, but i think that supports my answer from pervious question. In new world u are invested cuz u need to aim everyshot at the target so overall combat does not feel stale and boring

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?

    Im excited to see what other abilties u have prepared cuz airstrike is very good. Im concerned about couple of things tho:
    - snipe shot as tab target makes me scared what action abilities are u going to make
    - long bow range does seem a little bit small so u wont be able to poke ppl from the walls of a castle or node
    - i do hope that u will manage to balance damage of a short bow so long bow will be more dpm option to choose
    - action combat mode is close to useless in comparasion to tab target
    - all combat that we saw to this point is bascily gw2, im not sure if its good or bad tho


    I love the enviroment with all its particles and animals, good job! Skill sounds and visual are good too except snipe, but about that in a moment. I rate ranger combat 7/10, cuz i hoped for more action approach and there are some flaws that i want to point out.
    - Long bow should be bigger, now its almost same as short bow which is weird
    - Whistling sound of shooting arrows sometimes gets too high pitch and becomes annoying after a while, string sound very good. I think skyrim had a good bow sounds so u can inspire, make sure to make a sound queue for crits tho.. but please, dont make it annoying
    - I think that shooting and jumping makes it look weird, same with no movement speed punishment for streight up back pedaling while shooting
    - I think that long bow should have more range so u can snipe ppl for afar, not sure if though base range or maybe weapon skill tree. You can always make that only in action when u blind fire projectiles can fly much furhter so u can snipe ppl.. im not saying apoc snipe.. but just further
    - Talking about snipe, you charge this huge ass attack, and then u have visual and sound of normal attack.. put there some green juicy projectile and some epic sound effect, also i think snipe should have more range than normal attacks and should be action as its this very big snipe damage so it feels weird when its tab targeted

    Other thing is that we can see player nametag above our character, remove that, its useless and it will help with immersion (obviusly i mean remove our nametag on our screen, keep nametags for other players)
  • As someone who has played an archer class in every MMO I've ever played, this first showcase of the class was everything that I've ever wanted. The animations felt crisp and had good weight behind them, and having different playstyles between the shortbow and longbow is a very good decision! Of course, there are a number of concerns whether or not you will be rewarded for channeling Snipe, the movement speed of the shortbow, etc., but these are problems for after every class' kits are fully fleshed out so we can see how mechanics interact and if they are too OP or not. The important thing is that the direction that you guys are taking this is exactly the direction that I love about archer-type classes. There should be multiple playstyles, and you should be able to make the choice between a sniper, faster shots, utility, traps, etc..

    I have read a variety of concerns on this forum post regarding tab targeting and people's major concerns are:
    1. The class is completely tab target.
    2. This implies that ranger will take little to no skill at PVP since they can tab target shoot you and run away.
    3. There is no benefit to being in action mode.

    For point 1, keep in mind that we've only seen 3!! skills used at this point, and already one of these skills (Airstrike) is NOT tab target. I am incredibly confident that there will be more skills introduced with interesting use cases and plenty of room for skill expression. The game is hybrid combat, and people who are acting like this showcase implies the game will be entirely tab-targeting are overreacting. I forgot where I saw someone say that likely 75% of the skills will be tab-target and 25% will be action combat, but it doesn't seem like they were lying about that. Some easy action skills to design off the top of my head are positioning-based traps that the ranger can put down, raining arrows on a location, and pulling out knives for melee combos.

    For point 2, zoning an enemy outside of my range as an archer has NEVER been trivial in any PVP game I've played. Even if archers have good skills that can tab-target, keep in mind that EVERY class will have good skills that can tab-target. They have already shown that fighters have a tab-target knockdown that can immediately gapclose onto a ranged player. Classes will have shields, invisibility, cleanses, immunities, etc. that will reward you for timing them correctly against an opposing player, regardless of what class they are playing. As someone who has played a lot of BDO and Lost Ark PVP, I did not feel like the action combat enhanced the PVP in any meaningful way. You don't spam your ranged attacks and hit some and miss some because of your aim. Instead, you combo your aimable attacks with stuns, knockdowns, etc. so that it isn't possible to miss. Essentially, turning your snipes, etc. into tab-targeting anyways. You can still have a combo game, skill management, reacting to animations, and proper positioning and timing without action combat. There's plenty of room for skill expression.

    Not to say that action combat is bad, because I also do like that Intrepid are adding some action-based skills. They add variety and flavor to combat by allowing you to do unexpected things due to their versatility. People can prefer action combat simply due to the feel and variety of it, but it's not the cornerstone of a competitive PVP environment.

    For point 3, I would also disagree with this. I also played GW2 as a ranger, and the action camera in that game made my hits feel more alive without creating the whole host of problems that free aim would bring such as hit detection, tracking thousands of projectile entities during huge castle sieges, and dealing with max weapon ranges (do arrows continue flying forever, or do they just vanish after reaching your max range?). Max range especially is a big deal for PVP as range can't be so large that an archer can hit you from a full screen away, or you could never engage onto them. Archers could just sit on top of a building and fire cheap shots during a war. However, having your range be less than a full screen makes your arrows disappear incredibly often when you see an enemy and try to shoot them, which is super frustrating.

    When there are 10 enemies on screen, it's easier to use the action camera to point to the one you want to hit instead of tabbing 6 times to do the same thing, and it's also much more intuitive when you find yourself in chaotic situations. The action camera will already find plenty of use even without mechanics forcing you to use it, like a flat DPS increase or the like. It's more intuitive and more immersive, and highly competitive players may want to sacrifice that for more consistency in tab-targeting, which isn't a bad thing. Unless there are abuse cases, which I have faith Intrepid will solve quickly, action camera is way more appealing and noob-friendly, and using tab-targeting in exchange only provides a couple of of advantages (shooting while looking at other places, AOE placement). People will naturally prefer one or the other, so what's the point making one obviously better than the other like a DPS increase would do? Might as well delete one of the two if you're going to push one style so heavily. They both have their pros and cons.

    I always felt like AoC was the game that wanted to reward differences in playstyles above all else, and to me this just feels like an extension of that. People saying the game is doomed / it won't be fun without X change is the antithesis to that belief. No doubt you'll see successful players using tab-targeting as well as successful players using the action camera. You'll see rangers that successfully zone off an attacker forever, as well as ones that get stunned and chased down to death. Some classes having more tab skills, some having more action skills, all of them having cool and creative tools to use in combat. That's how you design a game properly. Intrepid already showed that they are very receptive to player feedback, so massive unbalances and game abuse will be squashed quickly.

    If you agree with the core design pillars that Steven shared, then there should be a playstyle in this game that fits you. But that doesn't mean that every playstyle should fit you, or the game would become one homogenized mess. And as a natural outcome of that, there will be different playstyles that cause friction when they clash in the game world. That's the beauty of this game. There's too many people in this thread that don't play rangers that have had negative experiences with them in other games, and it's coloring their opinion here.
  • AltiorAltior Member
    edited October 2022
    I overall like the hybrid soft lock approach for reticle targeting. This worked well for me in Guild Wars 2. It's not clear to me whether, when soft locked, the arrow will go to the reticle, as in a blind shot, or to the target's center of mass / lock on point, as in hard lock. I would definitely prefer if it goes to the reticle so that it's possible to lead shots on moving targets, aim for larger parts of the enemy or weak points if they exist, etc. For comparison, one of my biggest gripes about archery in Elden Ring is that the lock-on points are often on small, highly mobile parts of the enemy, causing arrows to often miss, e.g. Maliketh is a highly mobile enemy and his lock-on point is on his skinny waist instead of his broad chest. However, Elden Ring's mechanics of sneaking quick shots in after dodges, jumps, etc. when using light bows is really fun and engaging, and something like that could be fun if it fits in the combat system of Ashes. Shortbow gameplay should be very mobile.

    Also, I'm not a fan of the creaking sound when drawing the bow. Real bows don't creak. Moreover, many archer players might prefer a more subtle battlefield presence, and the creaking defies that. I would prefer a more understated wood-on-wood or wood-on-leather sound as the shaft slides across the hand of the archer, with no creaking.
  • MycologyMycology Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
    Mobility and feel, you guys really nailed it with the sound effects and movement. I really hate in other games that when you shoot your bow you are basically immobile and it feels true to the fantasy of the archtype of a "ranger/archer"

    10/10 for me here on movement and Tab/Action orientations!


    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?


    Touched on this, but I don't want an archetype that is locked motionless to deal damage, and I hate when you feel "bulky and heavy" in this archetype.


    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?

    It doesn't seem like the action combat is true action combat, and i think this is fine I really like the soft lock system you have is great! I THINK that there should be SOME MERIT that's not bonus damage if you are using the action combat softlock vs true aiming. Maybe a distance increase on the aiming portion? I think that would be fair without being broken.

    Overall feedback
    I really loved it!!! RANGER IS MY MOST HYPED CLASS! I would be totally okay with what you have shown today! I like everyone else will say the same, A2 when? At least a spot test! Let us test the combat ourselves!

    Edit: Perhaps a true "Skill shot" that utilizes full action combat that does more damage? Longer CD, higher risk, higher reward.
  • Action combat soft lock and hard lock aim
    basic attack soft lock and the skills use both
    soft lock for the target(base dmg) and then use hard lock to aim the weak spot for extra dmg for pve boss that can work to destroy armor or crippled for debuff
  • SamsonSamson Member
    edited October 2022
    Really enjoyed the "Basic Range Weapon Attack" live stream today. The movement of the ranger and weapon/hit/crit sounds are amazing. I also like the tab-targeting direction you seem to be going. Overall, the basic ranger kit you showed off seems to be pretty fluid. Keep up the good work. :)

    I also want to say that there is always going to be those who want action combat and those who want tab-target. You will not please everyone. I just ask that Intrepid Studios chooses the combat style that is best for this game knowing that there will be some that will inevitably end up disappointed.
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