My thoughts on this, just ideas, not necessarily good ones.
My first exposure to PVP in games was early in with Star Wars Galaxies (Which I renamed to Nerf Wars). The battles were generally fun then, though there was always a few toxic folks, it didn't detract. The latest one I played was Arche Age, (which I renamed to Ack! Grinding). They did a piss poor job of dealing with toxic folks, and I left that game after just a few months of playing it.
I find most often that the toxic folks are also the ones that manage within the gaming systems (by work or by crook) to figure out 'one hit wonder' kills.
So that's one of the first things that should be avoided from a PVP aspect, is one hit wonders. Additionally, PVP should penalize those with high skills picking on those with very low skills. The justice system in Arche Age tried to address that but it was flawed, in that a buddy could easily break someone out. Maybe some consideration of them permanently losing skills with each over power kill if the PVP is outside of a Zone Battle, Raid or a Trade route battle scenario. And maybe apply part of that penalty to a group or whole party, even if it's just one person doing it.
Agree with the ignore option, but it should be enhanced. If a person A has been ignored by person B, then person A PVP kills B say two times afterwards, Person B gets a new option of ignoring Person A called "Ignore PVP". Even during the Zone Battles or raids, Person A would be unable to interact to influence Person B from that point on. I think this later option would do more to help police both Toxic folks, and the occasional griefer. It would mean that two many toxic people on Zone A's side, might mean they lose against Zone B because they could not interact enough. That would encourage each zone to not collect too many toxic folks.
@Flip and @Gothix All of those examples detail toxic
behaviour, but nothing that should be dealt with in any other way than a
personal ignore. We do often conflate toxic behaviour with offensive
anti-social behaviour and they are very different things. Toxic behaviour can
only ever be policed by an individual as what one finds toxic another might
find amusing.
I would only ignore a single person in all of those
situations – the one who used cuck, as I find people who use that term are
generally deficient in many ways and not someone I want to interact with. I don’t
find it particularly offensive but it speaks to the character of the person.
Offensive anti-social behaviour (such as threats of violence
& sexual violence, excessive swearing, racism, etc) should most definitely
be policed through a reporting structure that is as old as MMOs themselves.
I really don’t think we need to reinvent the wheel on this
issue. The only addition to the systems already in place in most MMOs would be
the ability for your ignore list to also be utilised to deny those people
access to your auctions and to the items you have placed in a store (and
conversely access to their auctions and store if you so wish).
If someone
refuses to improve their behaviour then they will quickly find their options in
a zone very limited from an economic community point of view. If these options
are toggleable in the ignore listing, then I think this one system would be
more than powerful enough for the community to, for the most part, police
itself.
And isn’t that what Intrepid are all about: Player Agency?
Many people can be set off by different words, but I believe we can all agree that racism, insults towards family and friends, insulting dead relatives or in general insults or offensive words have no place in public chats.
I'll make a world chat simulation to make my point a bit clearer.
Case 1: Toxic
[World]xXBestMageXx: OMG, I got a legendary! [World]l33tPvPerPRO: S**k it you RNG carried inbred!
Case 2: Toxic
<Server wide notification> "Gandalf156 succeded in enchanting Epic Silver Staff to level 20" (assuming 20 is max)
[World]HomerSimpson: Wow, I just dropped <insert name of best in slot armor>! [World]Obama: Omg, gratz! [World]DonaldDuck: Wow, nice! [World]Kirito420: gz
Jesus, I hope you aren't insinuating that the absolutely terrible upgrade system from BDO will be implemented into Ashes!? And how am I to know which member of your Family is dead? That's like telling people to refer to yourself with your pronoun when you look like a man.
Many people can be set off by different words, but I believe we can all agree that racism, insults towards family and friends, insulting dead relatives or in general insults or offensive words have no place in public chats.
I'll make a world chat simulation to make my point a bit clearer.
Case 1: Toxic
[World]xXBestMageXx: OMG, I got a legendary! [World]l33tPvPerPRO: S**k it you RNG carried inbred!
Case 2: Toxic
<Server wide notification> "Gandalf156 succeded in enchanting Epic Silver Staff to level 20" (assuming 20 is max)
[World]HomerSimpson: Wow, I just dropped <insert name of best in slot armor>! [World]Obama: Omg, gratz! [World]DonaldDuck: Wow, nice! [World]Kirito420: gz
Jesus, I hope you aren't insinuating that the absolutely terrible upgrade system from BDO will be implemented into Ashes!? And how am I to know which member of your Family is dead? That's like telling people to refer to yourself with your pronoun when you look like a man.
How to know? You don't have to. Simply don't insult and you're on the safe side.
As for Gothix' "example", I also consider that toxic. In his "example" he devaluates gatherers and shows PvPers as the "greater good", which I compare with fascist behavior. In countless encounters on the forum it is visible how he wishes death to gatherers simply for being what they are or what they like doing. That's an example of fascist and toxic behavior.
Targeting gatherers for no reason other than because they like gathering stuff (?) is comparable for targeting afro americans due to their skin color or, god forbid, nazi behavior in which only the greater race (PvPers) must live, while the rest has to die.
I completely endorse competition and fighting for spots, but his attitude is simply "You gather, you die, and hopefully in rl too". This isn't competitive nor consensual.
Ok, so Gothix picked a silly choice of names in his examples that highlighted his personal preferences, but they didn't detract from the meaning....what was confusing to myself was why they were necessary for 'balance'....
And whilst I'm more than with you, denigrating groups of people IS toxic behaviour, I think in a questionable, does it exist, doesn't it, case such as this it would be far too subtle to be able to police similar in game. Players 'Reporting' any concerns in game would enable mods to build up a larger picture to see if there were any behaviour worth addressing, but I think that this would probably come down to a 'individual personality/ communication clash' rather than toxicity.
It's too bad that PvP and PvE is so separated and looked down upon by each other by so many people. We are all here to enjoy the game one way or another. It's disheartening.
That being said, I have found that even when you try to counter that type answer that often you are shouted out or perhaps the person asking may miss it in the scrolling troll fest. I find if your in a situation where you can safely send a PM to the person giving him/her the right answer is greatly appreciated and only takes seconds to do.
If nothing else it shows how not everyone is an idiot and common courtesy is not obsolete.
Many people can be set off by different words, but I believe we can all agree that racism, insults towards family and friends, insulting dead relatives or in general insults or offensive words have no place in public chats.
I'll make a world chat simulation to make my point a bit clearer.
Case 1: Toxic
[World]xXBestMageXx: OMG, I got a legendary! [World]l33tPvPerPRO: S**k it you RNG carried inbred!
Case 2: Toxic
<Server wide notification> "Gandalf156 succeded in enchanting Epic Silver Staff to level 20" (assuming 20 is max)
[World]HomerSimpson: Wow, I just dropped <insert name of best in slot armor>! [World]Obama: Omg, gratz! [World]DonaldDuck: Wow, nice! [World]Kirito420: gz
Jesus, I hope you aren't insinuating that the absolutely terrible upgrade system from BDO will be implemented into Ashes!? And how am I to know which member of your Family is dead? That's like telling people to refer to yourself with your pronoun when you look like a man.
How to know? You don't have to. Simply don't insult and you're on the safe side.
As for Gothix' "example", I also consider that toxic. In his "example" he devaluates gatherers and shows PvPers as the "greater good", which I compare with fascist behavior. In countless encounters on the forum it is visible how he wishes death to gatherers simply for being what they are or what they like doing. That's an example of fascist and toxic behavior.
Targeting gatherers for no reason other than because they like gathering stuff (?) is comparable for targeting afro americans due to their skin color or, god forbid, nazi behavior in which only the greater race (PvPers) must live, while the rest has to die.
I completely endorse competition and fighting for spots, but his attitude is simply "You gather, you die, and hopefully in rl too". This isn't competitive nor consensual.
Well quite a few people are the opposite of @Gothix, they're completely anti-PvP and it shows in their comments. But let's remain on topic. We can all agree general toxicity such as racism, "harassment" and douchieness isn't tolerated by the community as a whole.
Many people can be set off by different words, but I believe we can all agree that racism, insults towards family and friends, insulting dead relatives or in general insults or offensive words have no place in public chats.
I'll make a world chat simulation to make my point a bit clearer.
Case 1: Toxic
[World]xXBestMageXx: OMG, I got a legendary! [World]l33tPvPerPRO: S**k it you RNG carried inbred!
Case 2: Toxic
<Server wide notification> "Gandalf156 succeded in enchanting Epic Silver Staff to level 20" (assuming 20 is max)
[World]HomerSimpson: Wow, I just dropped <insert name of best in slot armor>! [World]Obama: Omg, gratz! [World]DonaldDuck: Wow, nice! [World]Kirito420: gz
Jesus, I hope you aren't insinuating that the absolutely terrible upgrade system from BDO will be implemented into Ashes!? And how am I to know which member of your Family is dead? That's like telling people to refer to yourself with your pronoun when you look like a man.
How to know? You don't have to. Simply don't insult and you're on the safe side.
As for Gothix' "example", I also consider that toxic. In his "example" he devaluates gatherers and shows PvPers as the "greater good", which I compare with fascist behavior. In countless encounters on the forum it is visible how he wishes death to gatherers simply for being what they are or what they like doing. That's an example of fascist and toxic behavior.
Targeting gatherers for no reason other than because they like gathering stuff (?) is comparable for targeting afro americans due to their skin color or, god forbid, nazi behavior in which only the greater race (PvPers) must live, while the rest has to die.
I completely endorse competition and fighting for spots, but his attitude is simply "You gather, you die, and hopefully in rl too". This isn't competitive nor consensual.
I don't often agree with @Gothix but his comment was only giving a TRUE example of how toxicity in chat can be caused by ANY type of game player whether if be PvP or PVE. It does go both ways. I am extremely against any type of discrimination but your type of an example is totally wrong. A person doesn't have to discriminate to be a killer. To put that label on Gothix is not right. His PvP attitude is not in question or the subject of this thread.
As for Gothix' "example", I also consider that toxic. In his "example" he devaluates gatherers and shows PvPers as the "greater good", which I compare with fascist behavior.
And what did you yourself do before I wrote you that reply? Take a look at your name choices...
all you need is an ignore option. Even that should not be needed its just words in text from a stranger, it should not really matter. we don't need protection in real life why would we need it in a game.
If your an a**hat people wont want to group with you.
individually, I agree @Jaikant. Communally, and for new folks, they really can bring the whole game down and result in drive players eleswhere
I dont want to come across as rude with this, but if people are coming into this conversation and settling on just the ignore option, youre selling the conversation out. Like Megs is expressing, ignore solves the issue for you, but not for everyone. If ignore worked alone, then why do people like me, who use the ignore problem, still have a need to discuss solving troll problems? Add to the conversation! dont just say this is the way it is, deal with it.
Every MMO sees a bit of toxicity, and some more then others (im looking at you League of Legends). From many years of personal experience, the games that focus on small communities in a bigger world tend to have better environments because theres pride to be taken in your home, as well as consequences for pooping in someone elses yard.
Anyone played an MMO that had a unique system that helped control trolls WITHOUT taking power from the people not abusing?
I've been watching this topic for a while now and for the last couple of pages you guys have just been running in circles.
It keeps boiling down to:
"just ignore if you have a problem" "Ignoring doesn't solve the problem" "Some people can't behave"
Over and over again. The same statements are being made in different wording. This is not reaching a solution in any way - even the suggestions(report, moderator) keep being repeated.
I've been watching this topic for a while now and for the last couple of pages you guys have just been running in circles.
It keeps boiling down to:
"just ignore if you have a problem" "Ignoring doesn't solve the problem" "Some people can't behave"
Over and over again. The same statements are being made in different wording. This is not reaching a solution in any way - even the suggestions(report, moderator) keep being repeated.
May I ask what exactly the point is now?
I think the point is that some of us are tired of trolls being so prevalent ( and in my opinion created by some systems in MMO's ) and a few of us are trying to come up with better ideas as to how to handle it. Ideal or not, nothing will be done if we dont at least try!
There are just those that continue to push the conversation in ways that end it or tell us were just bitter for wanting an answer.
I think it's still worth keeping it for the moment...But only because I've not had enough energy yet to getting around to summing up all the ideas and there are a couple more than just 'ignore' that were floated. Also, because the games for a loooong way to go before launch, who knows when one of the new folks joining us daily is going to surprise us all by having a really obvious but blindingly brilliant solution that everyone can get behind.
individually, I agree @Jaikant. Communally, and for new folks, they really can bring the whole game down and result in drive players eleswhere
I dont want to come across as rude with this, but if people are coming into this conversation and settling on just the ignore option, youre selling the conversation out. Like Megs is expressing, ignore solves the issue for you, but not for everyone. If ignore worked alone, then why do people like me, who use the ignore problem, still have a need to discuss solving troll problems? Add to the conversation! dont just say this is the way it is, deal with it.
The issue here is that the communities in many of the games
we are familiar with are very mature (some more than a decade old) and these
games also have many mechanics that actively work against any attempt at
community creation. Let’s just talk WoW, as I figure it will be the most
familiar and has every single problem, whereas something like Everquest only
had some.
Initially the community in WoW was actually pretty good. I
have very fond memories of some great interactions through zone chat and other
avenues. I don’t count Barrens chat as being toxic or in any way bad, it was a
lot of fun even if the Chuck Norris jokes got old really quickly. WoW ignore
list was not infinite, but I never came close to maxing it out. The community
was good for three main reasons (IMHO):
Newness of the game
Genre held hardcore gamers, for the most part
There were real consequences for toxic behaviour
Now during these times, the ignore function worked great. If
someone was an asshat, you ignored them, they didn’t get invited to groups for
zone quests, or instances or even raids. There was real challenge in the world
so you often required help to complete objectives in a zone, so it was in
everyone’s best interest to have a helpful community because everyone would
benefit, whether they were in a guild or not. So what happened to change the
community:
The game got old (boring for some)
The slide towards catering to casual gamers caused a lot of
the community-based hardcore gamers to leave and were replaced by players less
invested in the genre, the process and the game as a whole
All consequences were removed – dungeon/raid finders and
cross-realming destroyed any ability to deal with idiots as you would
never meet those people ever again, so ignoring was worthless. People felt
emboldened to be utter wankers to each and every person as the benefit of
anonymity eroded any residual sense of common decency that may have once been
in these players
So just utilising the Ignore function actually used to work,
and it worked pretty well. Did it stop everything? No, of course not, and no
system ever will. Even if you hire a team of hundreds of in-game community
managers you will not stop it all. Any system that is not mostly player driven
is a waste of time and resources and won’t realistically ever be implemented.
Right now there is no point in even putting anyone on ignore
in WoW, the entire system just does not work. But that is not because the
Ignore function is bad, just that the game has purposefully implemented many
mechanics that have actively destroyed the community. We need to look at Ashes
with fresh eyes and within the specific context of the game having challenge
and having consequence.
Don’t try to implement a system to deal with the
current state of the community in a broken MMO, think about what system will
work within a new MMO that actively fosters a community through game mechanics
instead of destroying it.
This is the reason why I advocate for the Ignore system to
really just be the core of player-based community management. Tie the system in
with the economics of the game and I really think you have something that will
affect every single player either positively or negatively depending on how
they choose to treat their fellow players.
We have to actively use this system. The onus is on us as
the players. If we, as players, couldn’t be bothered to use the ignore function
then why should we expect Intrepid to pay someone a wage to do it for us?
The Ignore system is in the hands of the individual, so it
is not open to abuse like many of the other systems that have been proposed. It
adds player agency and puts the fate of your play experience in your own hands.
You decide what is toxic for you, and act accordingly.
This is why I am advocating for the Ignore system. The other
proposals place the onus on Intrepid to police us, which I think is a very poor
idea. We need to police ourselves and if we have the framework it can be done
easily, cheaply and effectively.
If the system is followed by the players, a year down the
track new players should not be confronted by a wall of toxic chat because those
old players will have been weeded out and their game made much harder due to
their behaviour. It is still completely their choice to be a dickhead, we can’t
take that away from them, but the consequences are real and will have an effect
if enough people actively want them to.
New players may be toxic, but they too
will quickly come to realise that it is not in their best interest. If you see
someone being toxic (according to your personal parameters) and you don’t
ignore them, then you are just part of the problem
I may sound like a broken record, and one of those addressed
by the comment quoted above, so I’ll leave my proselytising there.
Had a few past game lives where ignore worked quite well for global chat but was ineffective if the player was physically near to you. They could spam you inside your homes and it was quite an irritant.
Thankfully - the cities we had included the ability to make players unwelcome if they weren't granted resident status. For severe trolls, we would have a town vote and revoke their permissions. You could raise and lower taxes, buffs and tariffs in game and this allowed for creative solutions to be utilized to get the griefers to go away. For anyone familiar with Wynonna Earp - imagine it as giving them Revenant status.
I personally have never liked or thought highly of any "report" function in any game, unless there is an army of people matching the player count, I don't think it's possible to keep up with the amount of possible false reports. What I do like is whatsome games have adopted, being able to give someone a "like" of honor, helpful, teacher, etc. I personally use this function so much if someone is helpful, and I'm also more likely to group/work with someone who has high marks by other players.
I'd like to see it easily recognizable and in chat, or maybe an additional feature of a bounty system? I dunno, thoughts I've had.
I'm in the "ignore" crowd. Specifically, being able to ignore an "Account", not just the specific toon. Also, when you ignore someone, I'd like their character names show up a specific color to you so that you know that Account is on your ignore list. That way, you never find yourself "accidentally" grouping with them. And if there's a random-group function, you should never get paired with that person.
In this way, if a person is an asshat to enough people, they'll find themselves literally alone in the game world. Without a direct consequence like that, it's unlikely we'll ever nip this problem in the butt.
I'm in the "ignore" crowd. Specifically, being able to ignore an "Account", not just the specific toon. Also, when you ignore someone, I'd like their character names show up a specific color to you so that you know that Account is on your ignore list. That way, you never find yourself "accidentally" grouping with them. And if there's a random-group function, you should never get paired with that person.
In this way, if a person is an asshat to enough people, they'll find themselves literally alone in the game world. Without a direct consequence like that, it's unlikely we'll ever nip this problem in the butt.
I believe the developers mentioned characters and accounts being separate, which I prefer. BDO was annoying as a hell because no matter what, people would always know who you were due to your "family" name. I defended my grinding area on my main, killing a bunch of people who aggro'd on me. Then they ganked me on my lower level'd alt. "That's the guy!! xddd get him! xddd" etc. Also, you cannot forget the Guilds that are built purely from asshole players.
individually, I agree @Jaikant. Communally, and for new folks, they really can bring the whole game down and result in drive players eleswhere
I dont want to come across as rude with this, but if people are coming into this conversation and settling on just the ignore option, youre selling the conversation out. Like Megs is expressing, ignore solves the issue for you, but not for everyone. If ignore worked alone, then why do people like me, who use the ignore problem, still have a need to discuss solving troll problems? Add to the conversation! dont just say this is the way it is, deal with it.
The issue here is that the communities in many of the games
we are familiar with are very mature (some more than a decade old) and these
games also have many mechanics that actively work against any attempt at
community creation. Let’s just talk WoW, as I figure it will be the most
familiar and has every single problem, whereas something like Everquest only
had some.
Initially the community in WoW was actually pretty good. I
have very fond memories of some great interactions through zone chat and other
avenues. I don’t count Barrens chat as being toxic or in any way bad, it was a
lot of fun even if the Chuck Norris jokes got old really quickly. WoW ignore
list was not infinite, but I never came close to maxing it out. The community
was good for three main reasons (IMHO):
Newness of the game
Genre held hardcore gamers, for the most part
There were real consequences for toxic behaviour
Now during these times, the ignore function worked great. If
someone was an asshat, you ignored them, they didn’t get invited to groups for
zone quests, or instances or even raids. There was real challenge in the world
so you often required help to complete objectives in a zone, so it was in
everyone’s best interest to have a helpful community because everyone would
benefit, whether they were in a guild or not. So what happened to change the
community:
The game got old (boring for some)
The slide towards catering to casual gamers caused a lot of
the community-based hardcore gamers to leave and were replaced by players less
invested in the genre, the process and the game as a whole
All consequences were removed – dungeon/raid finders and
cross-realming destroyed any ability to deal with idiots as you would
never meet those people ever again, so ignoring was worthless. People felt
emboldened to be utter wankers to each and every person as the benefit of
anonymity eroded any residual sense of common decency that may have once been
in these players
So just utilising the Ignore function actually used to work,
and it worked pretty well. Did it stop everything? No, of course not, and no
system ever will. Even if you hire a team of hundreds of in-game community
managers you will not stop it all. Any system that is not mostly player driven
is a waste of time and resources and won’t realistically ever be implemented.
Right now there is no point in even putting anyone on ignore
in WoW, the entire system just does not work. But that is not because the
Ignore function is bad, just that the game has purposefully implemented many
mechanics that have actively destroyed the community. We need to look at Ashes
with fresh eyes and within the specific context of the game having challenge
and having consequence.
Don’t try to implement a system to deal with the
current state of the community in a broken MMO, think about what system will
work within a new MMO that actively fosters a community through game mechanics
instead of destroying it.
This is the reason why I advocate for the Ignore system to
really just be the core of player-based community management. Tie the system in
with the economics of the game and I really think you have something that will
affect every single player either positively or negatively depending on how
they choose to treat their fellow players.
We have to actively use this system. The onus is on us as
the players. If we, as players, couldn’t be bothered to use the ignore function
then why should we expect Intrepid to pay someone a wage to do it for us?
The Ignore system is in the hands of the individual, so it
is not open to abuse like many of the other systems that have been proposed. It
adds player agency and puts the fate of your play experience in your own hands.
You decide what is toxic for you, and act accordingly.
This is why I am advocating for the Ignore system. The other
proposals place the onus on Intrepid to police us, which I think is a very poor
idea. We need to police ourselves and if we have the framework it can be done
easily, cheaply and effectively.
If the system is followed by the players, a year down the
track new players should not be confronted by a wall of toxic chat because those
old players will have been weeded out and their game made much harder due to
their behaviour. It is still completely their choice to be a dickhead, we can’t
take that away from them, but the consequences are real and will have an effect
if enough people actively want them to.
New players may be toxic, but they too
will quickly come to realise that it is not in their best interest. If you see
someone being toxic (according to your personal parameters) and you don’t
ignore them, then you are just part of the problem
I may sound like a broken record, and one of those addressed
by the comment quoted above, so I’ll leave my proselytising there.
Some well spoken words sir. This is a great observation and honestly an answer to look for. I remember WoW vanilla, and this was an answer then. Maybe it could be another one in AoC?
The only mechanic needed to stop publicly toxic comments is the ability to gank that person over and over in game until they ragequit. A kind of player enforced timeout.
I'm against mechanics which allow the social justice warriors to police things they deem offensive with a reporting tool as well as heavy handed moderators who think the game is about them.
I'm sure there will be some reporting tools available because some people can take it too far. I just hope that they allow the community to develop on its own without enforcing a strict code of conduct that turns everyone into a robot without opinion.
I knew that with my slow, broken brain nowadays it'd take a while to sum this up so far, several hours later....(five. it took five to be pedantic )....
This summation is no doubt going to be biased one way or another, I'm human, and a broken one at that. So sorry if you think I've missed out on a vital point, or just think it could never work, it's not meant as any offense.
Some resolutions suggested so far:
Begin with clear community rules with examples for clarity. What is and is not acceptable for the community. (For example the difference between grown up friendly debate vs explicit offensive adult chat, ensure folks know that cultural differences may occur, disapproval of filter dodging etc etc)
Intrepid hired mods. This will definitely be a go, but we need to support them and lighten their workload as much as possible. Moderation to only cover public chat, as we don't want total censorship and guilds or groups should be able to moderate themselves. Though guilds / groups having an [escalate to mod] option for harsher abuses they feel require serious investigation.
Volunteer mods. Whilst they would help lighten the load of the officials there is good and bad to be seen on either side of the argument here however: To be possibly just an admin role:review reports and weed out obvious reports that fail to meet the t+c criteria. collating system information without being able to see player names. etc etc. They could remain secret to avoid direct appeals to corruption, or get in game benefits.
Optional mature language filter.
A more involved process for players prior to being able to access public chat. Could be a quiz that changes answers, could be a quick quest, it'd only be meant to get peoples brains thinking again outside of what has become standard MMO chat behavior and getting them thinking.
Ignore (mute) function. Ignoring affecting other areas of the game, rather than just once chat channel, all communication methods, plus possibly any group finder, marketplace transactions etc. However this sounds like it may be impossible to implement if there is that separation between characters and accounts - log out of troll toon, log into trade toon, rinse repeat. Ignoring is temporary and degrades over time, however if you have muted a person before, the next time they are muted lasts longer. No limit to the ignore list. The option of adding notes to the mute. (So you can remember why etc) I'm personally not happy with the idea of perma-mutes, as it takes little time to re-block someone, it would be nice however for mute notes to stick around for future reference, unless you delete the note specifically, so that when grouping etc, you can at least be on your guard. When a players has been muted by a set number of players within the community, their name is automatically sent for a moderator for investigation.
Possible trolls nearby warning. Just as you report or ignore players, to have a 'troll warning' option that will flash up an icon, that when clicked upon opens a friendly message to someone you believe is naively feeding a troll. Only one warning per chat comment, and a player can only get one warning every five minutes, with a player option to turn this off for half an hour at a time. If the player turns off a troll warning system, then if someone they have fed is found guilty of being a troll (upheld by mod) then they will also be considered guilty as well.
Reporting. Reporting system that is more than just a quick one click. ie bringing up a reminder to the reporter of what is / isn't acceptable under the community guidelines. An ability to add any relevant screenshots. (yeah, this'd be largely for offenses that are non chat related) Only one report is logged per chat comment to avoid doubling spam already overworked moderators. A possible cool down on a report they've raised - so in five minutes the reporter gets an 'are you sure' option in which time emotions can cool down. A reported individual gets sent a message letting them know they've been reported, and they can comment on the situation to defend themselves if necessary.? 'Bad' reporting is logged and tracked and acted on by mods just as 'good' reporting is. Cost to comment in chat If this did get implemented, then there would have to be a breathing space for new players or those that hadn't been logged in for a long time. Personally whilst I'm not a massive fan of this, I'm ALL for it for folks who've been found guilty of a chat infringement, though again it'd need to degrade over time.
Player tribunals. Grisu highlighted the peer review structure of the League of Legends tribunal, where people on the server (not just the mods) evaluate the behavior of the players.
Silly ideas. Just 'cos. (Be allowed to) Kill them. Turn trolls / chat violators into actual in game trolls and let folks beat on them, or let them get eaten by a dragon, increase their aggro for mobs or temporarily drop them down to level one.
Positve reinforcement. A system that allows an upvotes of helpful behavior, nothing visible, but a nomination that gets sent to a central system, then once a week, every guild or individual gets put in for an ingame reward (cosmetic or title) then one random winner gets picked, (and if it's a guild they choose an individual within the guild to receive it themselves.)
But the discussion will never be over *evil-laugh* Is there any way to foster positive interactions between traditional factions of PvP vs PvE vs RP?
Are there any ways to encourage engagement with EVERY player into taking responsibility for the chat moderation system (ie in such a way that they feel reducing the toxic behavior is their responsibility, but can do so sensibly)?
The only mechanic needed to stop publicly toxic comments is the ability to gank that person over and over in game until they ragequit. A kind of player enforced timeout.
I'm against mechanics which allow the social justice warriors to police things they deem offensive with a reporting tool as well as heavy handed moderators who think the game is about them.
I'm sure there will be some reporting tools available because some people can take it too far. I just hope that they allow the community to develop on its own without enforcing a strict code of conduct that turns everyone into a robot without opinion.
Hahaha, calling people SJW on these forums is like holding a red flag to the bull my friend. I agree with your "heavy handed moderators" statement. Players should remain players, GM's should remain GM's.
Random idea... what about an option for guild leaders only (to limit random abuse) to add a (set by intrepid ) warning message to public chat. Again, only one message the same could be sent by everyone eligible in any two (??) minute period. This would be for if they noticed chat turning in a possible flammable direction ie politics, gender, stereotypes etc etc, and it would just be a gentle warning to remember to not get out of hand. Because we don't want censorship.
Random idea... what about an option for guild leaders only (to limit random abuse) to add a (set by intrepid ) warning message to public chat. Again, only one message the same could be sent by everyone eligible in any two (??) minute period. This would be for if they noticed chat turning in a possible flammable direction ie politics, gender, stereotypes etc etc, and it would just be a gentle warning to remember to not get out of hand. Because we don't want censorship.
Nice idea but I don't feel that would work either. It seems that the type people who need those reminders would only ignore them anyways. It would act as one more little nudge to push them on.
Comments
My first exposure to PVP in games was early in with Star Wars Galaxies (Which I renamed to Nerf Wars). The battles were generally fun then, though there was always a few toxic folks, it didn't detract. The latest one I played was Arche Age, (which I renamed to Ack! Grinding). They did a piss poor job of dealing with toxic folks, and I left that game after just a few months of playing it.
I find most often that the toxic folks are also the ones that manage within the gaming systems (by work or by crook) to figure out 'one hit wonder' kills.
So that's one of the first things that should be avoided from a PVP aspect, is one hit wonders. Additionally, PVP should penalize those with high skills picking on those with very low skills. The justice system in Arche Age tried to address that but it was flawed, in that a buddy could easily break someone out. Maybe some consideration of them permanently losing skills with each over power kill if the PVP is outside of a Zone Battle, Raid or a Trade route battle scenario. And maybe apply part of that penalty to a group or whole party, even if it's just one person doing it.
Agree with the ignore option, but it should be enhanced. If a person A has been ignored by person B, then person A PVP kills B say two times afterwards, Person B gets a new option of ignoring Person A called "Ignore PVP". Even during the Zone Battles or raids, Person A would be unable to interact to influence Person B from that point on. I think this later option would do more to help police both Toxic folks, and the occasional griefer. It would mean that two many toxic people on Zone A's side, might mean they lose against Zone B because they could not interact enough. That would encourage each zone to not collect too many toxic folks.
@Flip and @Gothix All of those examples detail toxic behaviour, but nothing that should be dealt with in any other way than a personal ignore. We do often conflate toxic behaviour with offensive anti-social behaviour and they are very different things. Toxic behaviour can only ever be policed by an individual as what one finds toxic another might find amusing.
I would only ignore a single person in all of those situations – the one who used cuck, as I find people who use that term are generally deficient in many ways and not someone I want to interact with. I don’t find it particularly offensive but it speaks to the character of the person.
Offensive anti-social behaviour (such as threats of violence & sexual violence, excessive swearing, racism, etc) should most definitely be policed through a reporting structure that is as old as MMOs themselves.
I really don’t think we need to reinvent the wheel on this issue. The only addition to the systems already in place in most MMOs would be the ability for your ignore list to also be utilised to deny those people access to your auctions and to the items you have placed in a store (and conversely access to their auctions and store if you so wish).
If someone refuses to improve their behaviour then they will quickly find their options in a zone very limited from an economic community point of view. If these options are toggleable in the ignore listing, then I think this one system would be more than powerful enough for the community to, for the most part, police itself.
And isn’t that what Intrepid are all about: Player Agency?
As for Gothix' "example", I also consider that toxic. In his "example" he devaluates gatherers and shows PvPers as the "greater good", which I compare with fascist behavior.
In countless encounters on the forum it is visible how he wishes death to gatherers simply for being what they are or what they like doing. That's an example of fascist and toxic behavior.
Targeting gatherers for no reason other than because they like gathering stuff (?) is comparable for targeting afro americans due to their skin color or, god forbid, nazi behavior in which only the greater race (PvPers) must live, while the rest has to die.
I completely endorse competition and fighting for spots, but his attitude is simply "You gather, you die, and hopefully in rl too". This isn't competitive nor consensual.
And whilst I'm more than with you, denigrating groups of people IS toxic behaviour, I think in a questionable, does it exist, doesn't it, case such as this it would be far too subtle to be able to police similar in game.
Players 'Reporting' any concerns in game would enable mods to build up a larger picture to see if there were any behaviour worth addressing, but I think that this would probably come down to a 'individual personality/ communication clash' rather than toxicity.
It's too bad that PvP and PvE is so separated and looked down upon by each other by so many people. We are all here to enjoy the game one way or another. It's disheartening.
That being said, I have found that even when you try to counter that type answer that often you are shouted out or perhaps the person asking may miss it in the scrolling troll fest. I find if your in a situation where you can safely send a PM to the person giving him/her the right answer is greatly appreciated and only takes seconds to do.
If nothing else it shows how not everyone is an idiot and common courtesy is not obsolete.
And what did you yourself do before I wrote you that reply? Take a look at your name choices...
PvPer being toxic in your example. So who do you devaluate by writing this then? (just using your own words here)
@Megs
"the balance" was since Flip used an example of PvPer being toxic, I used an example of gatherer being toxic.
And about FliPs description of me, like:
... I won't even comment anything on that.
Maybe a "report" option and if the guy get enought reports he get a chatban too, but dont waste your time with small problems.
Communally, and for new folks, they really can bring the whole game down and result in drive players eleswhere
If your an a**hat people wont want to group with you.
Every MMO sees a bit of toxicity, and some more then others (im looking at you League of Legends). From many years of personal experience, the games that focus on small communities in a bigger world tend to have better environments because theres pride to be taken in your home, as well as consequences for pooping in someone elses yard.
Anyone played an MMO that had a unique system that helped control trolls WITHOUT taking power from the people not abusing?
It keeps boiling down to:
"just ignore if you have a problem"
"Ignoring doesn't solve the problem"
"Some people can't behave"
Over and over again. The same statements are being made in different wording. This is not reaching a solution in any way - even the suggestions(report, moderator) keep being repeated.
May I ask what exactly the point is now?
There are just those that continue to push the conversation in ways that end it or tell us were just bitter for wanting an answer.
Also, because the games for a loooong way to go before launch, who knows when one of the new folks joining us daily is going to surprise us all by having a really obvious but blindingly brilliant solution that everyone can get behind.
well almost everyone
The issue here is that the communities in many of the games we are familiar with are very mature (some more than a decade old) and these games also have many mechanics that actively work against any attempt at community creation. Let’s just talk WoW, as I figure it will be the most familiar and has every single problem, whereas something like Everquest only had some.
Initially the community in WoW was actually pretty good. I have very fond memories of some great interactions through zone chat and other avenues. I don’t count Barrens chat as being toxic or in any way bad, it was a lot of fun even if the Chuck Norris jokes got old really quickly. WoW ignore list was not infinite, but I never came close to maxing it out. The community was good for three main reasons (IMHO):
Now during these times, the ignore function worked great. If someone was an asshat, you ignored them, they didn’t get invited to groups for zone quests, or instances or even raids. There was real challenge in the world so you often required help to complete objectives in a zone, so it was in everyone’s best interest to have a helpful community because everyone would benefit, whether they were in a guild or not. So what happened to change the community:
So just utilising the Ignore function actually used to work, and it worked pretty well. Did it stop everything? No, of course not, and no system ever will. Even if you hire a team of hundreds of in-game community managers you will not stop it all. Any system that is not mostly player driven is a waste of time and resources and won’t realistically ever be implemented.
Right now there is no point in even putting anyone on ignore in WoW, the entire system just does not work. But that is not because the Ignore function is bad, just that the game has purposefully implemented many mechanics that have actively destroyed the community. We need to look at Ashes with fresh eyes and within the specific context of the game having challenge and having consequence.
Don’t try to implement a system to deal with the current state of the community in a broken MMO, think about what system will work within a new MMO that actively fosters a community through game mechanics instead of destroying it.
This is the reason why I advocate for the Ignore system to really just be the core of player-based community management. Tie the system in with the economics of the game and I really think you have something that will affect every single player either positively or negatively depending on how they choose to treat their fellow players.
We have to actively use this system. The onus is on us as the players. If we, as players, couldn’t be bothered to use the ignore function then why should we expect Intrepid to pay someone a wage to do it for us?
The Ignore system is in the hands of the individual, so it is not open to abuse like many of the other systems that have been proposed. It adds player agency and puts the fate of your play experience in your own hands. You decide what is toxic for you, and act accordingly.
This is why I am advocating for the Ignore system. The other proposals place the onus on Intrepid to police us, which I think is a very poor idea. We need to police ourselves and if we have the framework it can be done easily, cheaply and effectively.
If the system is followed by the players, a year down the track new players should not be confronted by a wall of toxic chat because those old players will have been weeded out and their game made much harder due to their behaviour. It is still completely their choice to be a dickhead, we can’t take that away from them, but the consequences are real and will have an effect if enough people actively want them to.
New players may be toxic, but they too will quickly come to realise that it is not in their best interest. If you see someone being toxic (according to your personal parameters) and you don’t ignore them, then you are just part of the problem
I may sound like a broken record, and one of those addressed by the comment quoted above, so I’ll leave my proselytising there.
Thankfully - the cities we had included the ability to make players unwelcome if they weren't granted resident status. For severe trolls, we would have a town vote and revoke their permissions. You could raise and lower taxes, buffs and tariffs in game and this allowed for creative solutions to be utilized to get the griefers to go away. For anyone familiar with Wynonna Earp - imagine it as giving them Revenant status.
I'd like to see it easily recognizable and in chat, or maybe an additional feature of a bounty system? I dunno, thoughts I've had.
In this way, if a person is an asshat to enough people, they'll find themselves literally alone in the game world. Without a direct consequence like that, it's unlikely we'll ever nip this problem in the butt.
I'm against mechanics which allow the social justice warriors to police things they deem offensive with a reporting tool as well as heavy handed moderators who think the game is about them.
I'm sure there will be some reporting tools available because some people can take it too far. I just hope that they allow the community to develop on its own without enforcing a strict code of conduct that turns everyone into a robot without opinion.
I knew that with my slow, broken brain nowadays it'd take a while to sum this up so far, several hours later....(five. it took five to be pedantic )....
This summation is no doubt going to be biased one way or another, I'm human, and a broken one at that. So sorry if you think I've missed out on a vital point, or just think it could never work, it's not meant as any offense.
Some resolutions suggested so far:
Begin with clear community rules with examples for clarity.
What is and is not acceptable for the community. (For example the difference between grown up friendly debate vs explicit offensive adult chat, ensure folks know that cultural differences may occur, disapproval of filter dodging etc etc)
Intrepid hired mods.
This will definitely be a go, but we need to support them and lighten their workload as much as possible.
Moderation to only cover public chat, as we don't want total censorship and guilds or groups should be able to moderate themselves. Though guilds / groups having an [escalate to mod] option for harsher abuses they feel require serious investigation.
Volunteer mods.
Whilst they would help lighten the load of the officials there is good and bad to be seen on either side of the argument here however:
To be possibly just an admin role:review reports and weed out obvious reports that fail to meet the t+c criteria. collating system information without being able to see player names. etc etc.
They could remain secret to avoid direct appeals to corruption, or get in game benefits.
Optional mature language filter.
A more involved process for players prior to being able to access public chat.
Could be a quiz that changes answers, could be a quick quest, it'd only be meant to get peoples brains thinking again outside of what has become standard MMO chat behavior and getting them thinking.
Ignore (mute) function.
Ignoring affecting other areas of the game, rather than just once chat channel, all communication methods, plus possibly any group finder, marketplace transactions etc.
However this sounds like it may be impossible to implement if there is that separation between characters and accounts - log out of troll toon, log into trade toon, rinse repeat.
Ignoring is temporary and degrades over time, however if you have muted a person before, the next time they are muted lasts longer.
No limit to the ignore list.
The option of adding notes to the mute. (So you can remember why etc)
I'm personally not happy with the idea of perma-mutes, as it takes little time to re-block someone, it would be nice however for mute notes to stick around for future reference, unless you delete the note specifically, so that when grouping etc, you can at least be on your guard.
When a players has been muted by a set number of players within the community, their name is automatically sent for a moderator for investigation.
Possible trolls nearby warning.
Just as you report or ignore players, to have a 'troll warning' option that will flash up an icon, that when clicked upon opens a friendly message to someone you believe is naively feeding a troll. Only one warning per chat comment, and a player can only get one warning every five minutes, with a player option to turn this off for half an hour at a time.
If the player turns off a troll warning system, then if someone they have fed is found guilty of being a troll (upheld by mod) then they will also be considered guilty as well.
Reporting.
Reporting system that is more than just a quick one click. ie bringing up a reminder to the reporter of what is / isn't acceptable under the community guidelines.
An ability to add any relevant screenshots. (yeah, this'd be largely for offenses that are non chat related)
Only one report is logged per chat comment to avoid doubling spam already overworked moderators.
A possible cool down on a report they've raised - so in five minutes the reporter gets an 'are you sure' option in which time emotions can cool down.
A reported individual gets sent a message letting them know they've been reported, and they can comment on the situation to defend themselves if necessary.?
'Bad' reporting is logged and tracked and acted on by mods just as 'good' reporting is.
Cost to comment in chat
If this did get implemented, then there would have to be a breathing space for new players or those that hadn't been logged in for a long time.
Personally whilst I'm not a massive fan of this, I'm ALL for it for folks who've been found guilty of a chat infringement, though again it'd need to degrade over time.
Player tribunals.
Grisu highlighted the peer review structure of the League of Legends tribunal, where people on the server (not just the mods) evaluate the behavior of the players.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tribunal
Link to why the system was removed (wasn't necessarily intended to be removed permanently by the look of things.
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/740psKy6-why-did-tribunal-get-removed
Silly ideas.
Just 'cos.
(Be allowed to) Kill them.
Turn trolls / chat violators into actual in game trolls and let folks beat on them, or let them get eaten by a dragon, increase their aggro for mobs or temporarily drop them down to level one.
Positve reinforcement.
A system that allows an upvotes of helpful behavior, nothing visible, but a nomination that gets sent to a central system, then once a week, every guild or individual gets put in for an ingame reward (cosmetic or title) then one random winner gets picked, (and if it's a guild they choose an individual within the guild to receive it themselves.)
But the discussion will never be over *evil-laugh*
Is there any way to foster positive interactions between traditional factions of PvP vs PvE vs RP?
Are there any ways to encourage engagement with EVERY player into taking responsibility for the chat moderation system (ie in such a way that they feel reducing the toxic behavior is their responsibility, but can do so sensibly)?
Again, only one message the same could be sent by everyone eligible in any two (??) minute period.
This would be for if they noticed chat turning in a possible flammable direction ie politics, gender, stereotypes etc etc, and it would just be a gentle warning to remember to not get out of hand.
Because we don't want censorship.
KILL THEM ALL!!
@Nagash