How to stop public 'toxic' in game game chat?

ArchivedUser

This is following on from comment that @FliP made on @Goemoe s  localizations thread:

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/36085/localizations#latest

How do you think that toxic public chat can be restrained? Especially given that this game is unlikely to get an 18+ rating for playing.
Does it even need to be?

I do think chat moderators are useful people to have about, however hiring someone just for that job comes across as a little frivolous...

So you turn to the community....

{edited as it was a rather silly idea}

Then you get down to the consequences of breaking the rules.... something like the first time a complaint against you is upheld you get a warning, the second a severe warning, the third you get weeks account ban. (this could be overruled if necessary, by an appeal directly to the Intrepid team).
After this, you start again, three new strikes, but the next time you fail three, you get two weeks ban... then three week ban and so on.

The conversation so far: November 2nd
Some resolutions suggested so far:

Begin with clear community rules with examples for clarity.
What is and is not acceptable for the community. (For example the difference between grown up friendly chat vs explicit offensive adult chat, ensure folks know that cultural differences may occur, disapproval of filter dodging etc etc)

Intrepid hired mods.
This will definitely be a go, but we need to support them and lighten their workload as much as possible. 
Moderation to only cover public chat, as we don't want total censorship and guilds or groups should be able to moderate themselves. Though guilds / groups having an [escalate to mod] option for harsher abuses they feel require serious investigation. 

Volunteer mods.
Whilst they would help lighten the load of the officials there is good and bad to be seen on either side of the argument here however:
To be possibly just an admin role to review reports and weed out obvious ones that fail to meet the t+c criteria, collating system information without being able to see player names.
They could remain secret to avoid direct appeals to corruption. And/ or get in game benefits. 

Optional mature language filter. 

A more involved process for players prior to being able to access public chat.
Could be a quiz that changes answers, could be a quick quest, it'd only be meant to get peoples brains thinking again outside of what has become standard MMO chat behavior and getting them thinking.

Ignore (mute) function.
Ignoring affecting other areas of the game, rather than just once chat channel, all communication methods, plus possibly any group finder, marketplace transactions etc.
However this sounds like it may be impossible to implement if there is that separation between characters and accounts - log out of troll toon, log into trade toon, rinse repeat.
Ignoring is temporary and degrades over time, however if you have muted a person before, the next time they are muted lasts longer.
No limit to the ignore list. 
The option of adding notes to the mute. (So you can remember why etc)
I'm personally not happy with the idea of perma-mutes, as it takes little time to re-block someone, it would be nice however for mute notes to stick around for future reference, unless you delete the note specifically, so that when grouping etc, you can at least be on your guard. 
When a players has been muted by a set number of players within the community, their name is automatically sent for a moderator for investigation.

Possible trolls nearby warning.
Just as you report or ignore players, to have a 'troll warning' option that will flash up an icon, that when clicked upon opens a friendly message to someone you believe is naively feeding a troll. Only one warning per chat comment, and a player can only get one warning every five minutes, with a player option to turn this off for half an hour at a time. 
If the player turns off a troll warning system, then if someone they have fed is found guilty of being a troll (upheld by mod) then they will also be considered guilty as well.

Reporting.
Reporting system that is more than just a quick one click. ie bringing up a reminder to the reporter of what is / isn't acceptable under the community guidelines. 
An ability to any relevant screenshots. (yeah, this'd be for offenses that are non chat related)
Only one report is logged per chat comment to avoid doubling spam already overworked moderators. 
A possible cool down on a report they've raised - so in five minutes the reporter gets an 'are you sure' option in which time emotions can cool down. 
A reported individual gets sent a message letting them know they've been reported, and they can comment on the situation to defend themselves if necessary.?
'Bad' reporting is logged and tracked and acted on by mods just as 'good' reporting is.

Cost to comment in chat
If this did get implemented, then there would have to be a breathing space for new players or those that hadn't been logged in for a long time. 
Personally whilst I'm not a massive fan of this, I'm ALL for it for folks who've been found guilty of a chat infringement, though again it'd need to degrade over time. 

Player tribunals.
Grisu highlighted the peer review structure of the League of Legends tribunal, where people on the server (not just the mods) evaluate the behavior of the players.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tribunal

Link to why the system was removed (wasn't necessarily intended to be removed permanently by the look of things.
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/740psKy6-why-did-tribunal-get-removed 

Silly ideas.
Just 'cos.
(Be allowed to) Kill them.
Turn trolls / chat violators into actual in game trolls and let folks beat on them, or let them get eaten by a dragon, increase their aggro for mobs or temporarily drop them down to level one. 

Positve reinforcement.
A system that allows an upvotes of helpful behavior, nothing visible, but a nomination  that gets sent to a central system, then once a week, every guild or individual  gets put in for an ingame reward (cosmetic or title) then one random winner gets picked, (and if it's a guild they choose an individual within the guild to receive it themselves.)

But the discussion will never be over *evil-laugh*
Is there any way to foster positive interactions between traditional factions of PvP vs PvE vs RP?

Are there any ways to encourage engagement with EVERY player into taking responsibility for the chat moderation system (ie in such a way that they feel reducing the toxic behavior is their responsibility, but can do so sensibly)?

Phew. you 

ArchivedUser

I am definitely against a "report" function, it causes even more toxicity instead of dealing with it.

Obviously, hiring staff just to monitor chat is not cost effective, but it would not hurt for GMs to keep an eye on chat while they are in-game anyway.

Also, the concept of community volunteers is a "free" and great way to achieve things without heavy time and money involvement on Intrepids side.  Take forum moderators as an example. I don't know for sure, but I am going to assume they do not get paid, and they made the community manager obsolete to the point I didn't even know there was one until she left the team during PAX.

Community Volunteers wouldn't just be in charge of following chat. Whether they are tagged or untagged, known or undercover, they could be crucial to bringing valid feedback directly to the developers. For example, volunteers noticed or saw multiple complains in chat that nobody does XYZ dungeon anymore, even though it is required for a quest. The volunteer could then bring this up directly to the team by some sort of priority ticket queue to nail down why nobody does this dungeon anymore and think of ways to change that.

I am sure Intrepid will have their own tracking methods, but GMs usually do not have enough free time to actually play the game and notice what bothers the community currently.

It is just sad that for the past 6 years I have my public chats turned off, even though a lot of fun can come from them and they are usually required for solid gameplay if no other systems are in place (eg. finding groups). Sure, we can all ignore immature and toxic remarks in public chats, but if you're rolling your eyes at every second post, you will be forced to turn it off again for your own sake. That is already one feature you are not able to use.

Every publisher has rules in place that define how the community has to behave, yet no publisher does ever endorse those rules. They will eventually delete a forum post every now and then, but the problem of too comfortable people ruining world chats for everyone still persists.

Since AoC will be driven by the community, I believe it is important that the community is brought together and communicates with each other, so taking care of toxic behavior in public chats is indeed important in my opinion.

It wouldn't surprise me if the political system will be ran by trolls. That would be the end of a healthy community and split into small individual groups.

ArchivedUser

Volunteer chat moderators seem like a good idea on paper, though I would be worried that it ends in a lot of corruption, if the people knew who the moderators were. That would need to be kept a secret so people wouldn't constantly try to smooth talk them or even offer them items or money so they would dismiss your message.
Also, it would need to be able to be turned off for recordings for example. So if you're someone who likes streaming or making Youtube videos you would still stay anonymous.

ArchivedUser

Good topic to talk about for sure

I definitely do not have any proof to support my claim, but I think the downfall of League of Legends was taking away the tribunal system and making the process automatic.
Having people that actually play on the server evaluate the behavior was imo engaging and fair. You didn't even need rewards. People did it for a lot of different reasons. Being curious, just wanting to have a nice community, just for the lulz.
Like I said I have no proof, but I do think the toxicity exploded pretty much in time with the change/disabling to the tribunal system. I can only make guesses to why that is. Maybe it's simply the fact that every offender himself could look at the system.
"Oh so PEOPLE just vote on it? Damned" instead of "yeah there is an automatic system somewhere under the hood maybe"
Actual exposure instead of some abstract concept.

It's just a little guess tho, I could easily be completely wrong.
Anyway, I liked the tribunal system and would welcome it for sure. It sure would lessen the burden on chat moderation since we would thin out what we feel is harrasment and what is not, leaving only the actual offenders to the GMs.


Edit: What was the tribunal system of League of Legends?
It was a feature on their website you could access (yes everyone could simply log in) where you will judge based on several reports over several games based on the chat logs if the behavior was acceptable or not.
You voted for 10 chases max. each day and when enough people voted on a specific case you could see how many people voted which way.
It was anonymous, no one saw who voted which way and I think you didn't even see the name on who you vote against/for but I'm not sure about that last part anymore.

ArchivedUser

Hehe, Good to find out I'm not insane, that something like this is not only possible, but had been implemented before...:)

ArchivedUser

its simple kill everyone as dead men tell no tales ^^

ArchivedUser

The best way of reducing toxicity in my opinion is a mute function. If you can mute someone you don't like then you are far less inclined to become toxic in response. If everyone gets in the habit of muting people they consider trolls then the trolls are not fed. The most muted players will be highlighted to moderators so they can review chat and act accordingly. The mute system works very well in other MMOs.

ArchivedUser

The truth is @Megs, there's going to be no way of reducing toxicity ingame bar the obvious "ignore" button, but I guess that's what it's for. When we get our servers and the server community will become stronger, it will be up to that community to shape its own. It's amazing how influential a server community can be but that will be the extent of it. There's always going to be those that will create an unpleasant environment but there's way around them and the world is big enough to avoid them altogether.  

ArchivedUser

@Megs  Lex and Kratz as well as Nagash are right.   I always found the ignore option to be one of the best features in a game.  

I'd like to go one step further though.  I am not entirely sure how extensive an "ignore" option is.  By that I mean,  can it go beyond ignoring a person's chatter?  If there ever is a group finder mechanism in game I would like to see the ignore person not able to join in any group you are in.

Also perhaps if there are a certain number of the populace that puts the same  person on ignore then that person should be penalized by his chat being automatically muted for everyone.   Perhaps for a certain period of time.  Say a week.  If it happens again then make the penalty longer.  

If trolls find there is actually a penalty for toxic talk then maybe it can be curbed. 
Public chat should be open and enjoyed by everyone, not dominated by a few trolls and their feeders.

ArchivedUser

Nice thing is that we can record gameplay and post it in various places so that behavior can be witnessed by all.
Both players and devs can determine how they want to respond.

ArchivedUser

I've got the feeling that I was unthinking this.
Thanks everyone!

ArchivedUser

CylverRayne said:

Also perhaps if there are a certain number of the populace that puts the same  person on ignore then that person should be penalized by his chat being automatically muted for everyone.   Perhaps for a certain period of time.  Say a week.  If it happens again then make the penalty longer.  

I agreed with everything except this. I just foresee it being abused. People could essentially lock down other people's voice even if they weren't being toxic. All you would have to do is get your guild to all /ignore a dude and then he can no longer talk in chat to anyone in the game. Seems too exploitable.

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

CylverRayne said:

Also perhaps if there are a certain number of the populace that puts the same  person on ignore then that person should be penalized by his chat being automatically muted for everyone.   Perhaps for a certain period of time.  Say a week.  If it happens again then make the penalty longer.  

I agreed with everything except this. I just foresee it being abused. People could essentially lock down other people's voice even if they weren't being toxic. All you would have to do is get your guild to all /ignore a dude and then he can no longer talk in chat to anyone in the game. Seems too exploitable.

You are right.  I didn't think that all the way through.   

ArchivedUser

I like @CylverRayne 's idea but with a DM review before being muted.

ArchivedUser

I would really like the ignore function in Ashes to be a little more than a list of people who you can no longer hear in chat.

We know that one of the overarching design principles of Ashes is to create a community, something that has seriously eroded in most modern MMOs. I would like to see the ignore function be able to provide some player agency in how this community is overseen:

• No limit to the ignore list
• Will affect all chat channels – trade, general, private, private messages, mail, etc
• Will be utilised in the marketplace so people on your ignore list will be prevented from seeing/purchasing your goods
• Notes or flags added to listings to allow permanent additions
• Ability to purge ignore list, except for those flagged permanent

I will purge my ignore list on a regular basis (most people deserve a second chance), while keeping particularly egregious people ignored permanently. I think with the added functionality for what is usually a fairly simple feature, the community will self-regulate. All it requires is for people to use it.

Honestly, just by using the ignore list well, you can easily have a pretty drama-free in-game existence.

ArchivedUser

I particularly like the market place addition there @Bajjer!

ArchivedUser

I'd prefer some "Ignore Settings" to toggle whether ignored people can purchase your goods or not. 

In my opinion, if someone angers you, there is nothing more relieving then selling him a overpriced item.

ArchivedUser

I found some times a PM to a person who answers and feeds into a troll is well received.  A new player or very naive person may not realize what the troll is doing.
Send him a PM and let him know that the other is a troll and if he continues feeding that troll he/she may be added to other's ignore lists also. 

The troll care takers, those that feed and nurture them deserve to be ignored also.

ArchivedUser

Ignore feature is the only non-exploitable solution available at present.

ArchivedUser

https://pasteboard.co/GNoue1m.png

An example of when a publisher actually does something other than reeling in cash. Although, this most likely only happened due to a report, and not monitoring.

ArchivedUser

I don't know if ignoring can be an actual solution. Rather than dealing with a problem it is simply avoiding it.
Sure in a perfect world where everyone ignores the troll the lack of public stage would deter said troll, but as CylverRanger pointed out, what about new people? You wouldn't even realize it for the longest time, taking it as a wrong channel use maybe.
This in turn creates a whole new problem. Whispering that someone may use the wrong channel even tho they have a conversation going in that channel with a troll that is telling him absolute bullshit will lead to miss understandings quite often and make matters worse for the new person.
A troll that doesn't have to fear disagreement has basically free reign to spout his nonsense and false truths into the new populance and no one will disagree, since no one is aware of it. This is awfully dangerous.
Just imagine what a horde of ignored trolls could tell new people without anyone pointing out that they are trolls.
So even the ideal situation of everyone established on the server with a base knowledge ignoring every troll will automatically lead to new problems.

ArchivedUser

I still say killing them is the best way and if they get talking just keep killing 

ArchivedUser

Would be interesting to see people having conversations with people you have ignored. It will seem like they are talking to themselves 

ArchivedUser

I'm not saying what should be done, but... IF chat will be moderated then a decent tolerance to "normal adult chat" should be kept, so people do not get punished for every simple "bad word" they say. Only more serious toxicity should (imho) be sanctioned.

Also, I would like to say that, in my opinion, context is extremely important. So when something would be reported, then not only this single line of text should be reviewed but a part of conversation that preceded that line too.

Just my 2 cents.

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

Would be interesting to see people having conversations with people you have ignored. It will seem like they are talking to themselves 

I see that all the time in other MMOs. 

ArchivedUser

Or.... You know...
You could... just block them? oO
If you find them toxic o_O

Also, I 2nd the Blacklist option for the Market. Let them be able to see it just fine, but they cannot buyt it, just stare at it. 

ArchivedUser

There is a thin line between adult chat and offensive and sexist conversations.

Intrepid should set their own rules what is tolerable and what not, even though the most basic rules usually include no sexism, no racism, no political discussions, no anything that triggers the bad word filter and most importantly, no filter dodging you filthy mot***fu**ers (Just trying to demonstrate filter dodging, don't get offended :P )

Edit due to reply while I was typing:

Just going to leave this here.
"I don't know if ignoring can be an actual solution. Rather than dealing with a problem it is simply avoiding it."
- Grisu 2017

ArchivedUser

Having served as an Everquest Guide on Ayonae Ro back in the day.  I don't see an issue with having volunteer guides.  The reward was service; we never had to receive special payment.  We did get our robes and special guide weapon which made us stand out as unique.

There was a formal guidebook which listed what you were allowed and not allowed to do.  We had our own island to hangout in and certain areas of the game were blocked to us.

We ran around with a senior guide/gm until we understood the basics and could function independently.

It was about players helping players.   

We could recover lost items (those that fell through terrain)
Help players who were physically stuck
Removed bugged mobs
Teach game mechanics
Moderated open speech through a warning system in which GMs would review and act.
We moderated disputes (rare spawns that were contested, etc.)

It freed the developers from a burden; and provided cost savings.  I like to think it benefited the community as well since reaction time to small problems were drastically cut.

ArchivedUser

I think toxicity will exist in any environment where people are allowed to interact with others.

The threshold for what is and isn't "toxic" varies from person to person, but sometimes it's just super evident when someone is being an ass just for the sake of being an ass(as people who were in Discord last night, we got to see an epic meltdown by everyone's least favorite toxic bark and leaf covered resident.).

I feel it's on the community to self police this kind of stuff to an extent. I've been part of games and MMOs that ostracized toxic and trolls people, and in the end, it caused these people to leave because they couldn't find parties, guilds or even people to trade or craft with. In short, if someone is toxic, stand up to them by not playing or engaging. Don't fed the fire, simply treat them as what they are worth. Nothing. 

ArchivedUser

Hello friends,
On the forums we do have such a feature, FLAG which indeed does work in such a fashion. This function will alert a Community Moderator to a post which breaks our forums Community Guidelines (Located here:https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/6855/read-me-community-guidelines-code-of-conduct#latest).

In Discord we do not have such a feature and to my knowledge one is not being provided in the immediate future. If you do encounter an issue in the Discord server, please screenshot and send to any Community Moderator via DM. We do actively monitor chat, forums and DM's for activity.

Please let me know if there are any additional questions, comments, or concerns.
Many thanks

ArchivedUser

Thanks @Belewyn, and you guys do awesome stuff, but this is more regarding in game chat after launch.

I think most of us feel friendly welcoming chat would be ideal, but how to keep it so?