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What is left of the game for a PvE player?

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Comments

  • Dang, this whole conversation now has me thinking my alt will be a pvp ganker
    Well that is my plan too. ;)
  • Ferryman said:
    Dang, this whole conversation now has me thinking my alt will be a pvp ganker
    Well that is my plan too. ;)
    I should open an undertaker business in my freehold if this carries on I would make a killing ^^
  • nagash said:
    Ferryman said:
    Dang, this whole conversation now has me thinking my alt will be a pvp ganker
    Well that is my plan too. ;)
    I should open an undertaker business in my freehold if this carries on I would make a killing ^^
    Sure, you can keep the corpses and i will keep and transport the souls to the underworld. Its a deal.
  • Ferryman said:
    nagash said:
    Ferryman said:
    Dang, this whole conversation now has me thinking my alt will be a pvp ganker
    Well that is my plan too. ;)
    I should open an undertaker business in my freehold if this carries on I would make a killing ^^
    Sure, you can keep the corpses and i will keep and transport the souls to the underworld. Its a deal.
    @Ferryman you could just transport (ferry) all the corpses to @nagash and make a fortune.  Who knows, sometimes you could even use a boat and a pole. :wink:
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Ferryman said:
    Yes that happens and it is quite usual actually. But in Albion stolen boss/mobs are a thing you should be less worry about, especially if you are at black zone dungeon. It is the other players you should be worrying about. ;) Albion is ofc bad example, because of full loot and it hurts so much more than just inventory drops in Ashes.

    But lets come back to Ashes. Even you can be affecfed undirectly via PvE, it is not as bad as you will be ganked by other player(s). If someone gets to the mobs first, you can still have choise to change place to farm, but if someone is attacking you, you dont have choise to avoid the situation. So that was my point. So it is much worse thing from player point of view, that (s)he will be ganked by player, than someone takes "your" mob/boss or buys "your" sword. There is a huge difference like day and night.     

    I was never trying to equate the two, I was just pointing it out that players can be affected without direct conflict. 

    This is one of the main reasons we have the corruption system. It is there to give us the option to fight in these situations if we think it's worth the risk. If my group is farming an area and someone roles to try to take our spot, it gives us the option to fight them off.
  • So far this game is a no for me. I"m watching development hoping it turns into a yes but from the direction I see I'm having doubts. If their vision holds true it does look to be a great game coming though.
    As far as equating ganking to mob or node tagging is ridiculous. If I make a melee char I know what is coming from ranged classes, I just run and try to get the next mob that spawns. I"m not running back from town for my corpse with xp debt and resource loss.

    Here is how corruption works, so far as explained.
    I roll into an area to farm copper ore. I see 3 people farming copper ore. I call my 2 or 3 friends and we come in and gank the crap out of you 1 at a time. take your meager drops. Then we go back to our hideaway/farm/safe place and pull in our alts to kill each other(main way to lose corruption) for a few/5/10 minutes. Lose all our corruption then come back nice and green. We do that 3 or 4 times in an area, you stop coming there. We now own the copper ore area and have created a pvp hub for a resource.
    The pvper just won. The PvEer just had  his hour/day of playing ruined and has to rely on friends to escort him to farm a simple resource.

    Its that simple. While I would not be ganking anyone or playing this way, this is exactly how it will go. There will be gank squads for pleasure/resource/mob control. This game so far is an open world PvP game.

    I'm still watching though. Love some of the ideas these devs are having and they sound like they actually care. For you PvP players. This looks like its shaping up to be an awesome game.
  • Excellent post Zaul_Tyvalger. I agree wholeheartedly.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    So it's been said so often by Steven, yet it's usually left out of these kinds of conversations. 

    This game has a core element that is based upon Risk vs Reward. Risk big, you could have big reward. 

    To be frank,  if the thought of risking getting ganked while farming is enough to make you not play this game, then ok. Totally cool. There are plenty of other games that are low risk you might enjoy.

    But AoC is about dynamic conflict. 

    It's not going to be Stardew Valley.

    And for that, I'm glad, because there are a million games out there where you risk nothing ever. And they make me zzzzzzzz. 





  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Zinnie said:
    This is one of the most punishing MMO's for any ganker, because of the corruption system that even makes a ganker lose his own equipped items if he is corrupted enough.

    If that does not protect PvE'ers, then nothing will in my opinion. 

    I totally agree.  In so many MMO's, griefers can work off their corruption with little effort.  In BDO you can even have a PET buff help decrease your corruption! The devs said just this week on the Webcast that the only two ways to lose corruption are (1) death and (2) a "real time sink" series of quests.   
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Lateana said:
    If a PvE flagged character is killable, no matter the penalties, then that character is just food for griefers and those who are just plain mean-spirited.

    In other MMOs yes, but in this one, a griefer's attack ability falls dramatically upon killing a non-flagged player, and even more so if there is a large level difference.  In no time at all, the griefer will become unable to do any damage.  Steven is really sincere and determined to dispose of griefing in this game.
  • nagash said:
    I should open an undertaker business in my freehold if this carries on I would make a killing ^^
    Do you take care of Pets and Mounts too?

    How about an Aquarium type thing with lots of Caskets with windows so I can watch my enemies rot?  Sell those?
  • FliP said:
    While it might not be obvious and maybe sound ridiculous, there are ways for a PvE player to ruin a PvP players experience.

    Before I go on explaining it, I'd just like to mention what PvPers do to ruin a PvEers day - they might get killed non-consenually. That's 1 thing.

    Now, what can PvEers do to annoy PvPers?
    - Stand in the way of a fight, or even worse, multiple people standing in the middle of a fight, potentially causing lag
    - in Faction vs Faction types of battles, ungeared and unexperienced PvEers ruining a Factions statistics by getting killed over and over, leave it to the professionals

    That's 2 things.

    I won't go on about PvEers depleting open world resources and similar activities, as that is a PvE thing. If a PvPer would want to do such things, he is doing PvE at that moment.

    My points are strictly considering when a player only wants to do a specific type of action at a time, eg. PvPers want to kill people and not get disturbed, or PvEers want to gather stuff and not get killed.

    I am on neither side, as I enjoy both sorts of activities. I enjoy PvP as much as doing dungeon raids or craft my own gear (if it is beneficial to do so).

    Also, it is not right to criticize either playstyle, as both work together.
    PvEers gather stuff and craft things that PvPers will buy and use.

    Cause lag by existing? Wait, what? This is an mmo, there will be players everywhere all the time. That is part of the game. Also, if they are causing lag (somehow) they would be causing lag to everyone which would erase any perceived imbalance as it'd affect everyone equally.

    If PvE players are taking part of RvR then they are PvP players. You can't just call every crappy pvp'er a pve'er. The only time there is "professional" pvpers is in ranked and open world isn't ranked. 

    PvPers only do two things... kill other players and get killed by other players (unless there are objectives). So unless a PvE'er does something to directly affect that I don't see how it is possible to affect PvP gameplay. The only thing I can really see is PvE elements affecting PvP. Such things as in class balancing, leveling, gearing, and any other changes made for pve that would change how pvp is done.

    Also, you know what, I've seen plenty of times that PvE was changed because PvP wasn't balanced so looke like that one would be moot.
  • @Lateana

    I want to assure you this game is not ONLY pvp. S
    teven Sharif vision is not to make this game for pvp players but to make a challenging game. That does include the pvp element to be apart of the game. He has spoken on multiple occassions about playing Lineage 2. As a former player (several years) that game was very VERY PVE but had the same element of "pvp". you could fight anytime anywhere, even in town but a guard would drop you so quick lol. 

    The penalty for pvp/ganking/player grieving will always prevent the mass populous from turning to evil every chance they get. 

    I would like to finish by saying i have played 100% PVE games where people harassed me just as much as PVP centric games did. They had to get creative but it happens. There is going to be soooo much PVE in this game.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Ferryman said:
    Yes that happens and it is quite usual actually. But in Albion stolen boss/mobs are a thing you should be less worry about, especially if you are at black zone dungeon. It is the other players you should be worrying about. ;) Albion is ofc bad example, because of full loot and it hurts so much more than just inventory drops in Ashes.

    But lets come back to Ashes. Even you can be affecfed undirectly via PvE, it is not as bad as you will be ganked by other player(s). If someone gets to the mobs first, you can still have choise to change place to farm, but if someone is attacking you, you dont have choise to avoid the situation. So that was my point. So it is much worse thing from player point of view, that (s)he will be ganked by player, than someone takes "your" mob/boss or buys "your" sword. There is a huge difference like day and night.     

    I was never trying to equate the two, I was just pointing it out that players can be affected without direct conflict. 
    I know and i was not referring to you at first place. I was commenting to other peoples post and then you just popped in. ;-)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    @Ferryman you can say which situation feels worse for you, but I don't think you can say situation X  feels worse for all players than situation Y. It's subjective and depends on player's play styles, expectations, etc.

    Being ganked for a short time vs organising a trade run around your work schedule and delaying it for days because a certain trade route is monopolised/overused, only to end up with 50% of the money you could have made in an ideal situation. Apples and oranges, and I've known players who would say either one could be worse over the other.

    I think the main thing, like others have pointed out, is that griefing is controlled/heavily penalised so it just doesn't ruin the experience for people.

  • @Zaul_Tyvalger
    Your example has two flaws;
    1) You will spawn randomly if killed while corrupted, so you and your buddies won't, theoretically, just be able to find each other before someone else finds you.
    2) Resource spawn points migrate when exhausted, so you will also have to eventually find another resource spawn point.

    I could say a 3rd flaw is how ridiculous it is that players would want to spend more time killing each others alts than playing the actual game, but some idiots will do it I am sure. I mean, they pay the same sub rate so let them.

    Your post has merit, it just didn't account for two things that have already been confirmed by IS a few times.
  • Ravudha said:
    @Ferryman you can say which situation feels worse for you, but I don't think you can say situation X  feels worse for all players than situation Y. It's subjective and depends on player's play styles, expectations, etc.

    Being ganked for a short time vs organising a trade run around your work schedule and delaying it for days because a certain trade route is monopolised/overused, only to end up with 50% of the money you could have made in an ideal situation. Apples and oranges, and I've known players who would say either one could be worse over the other.

    I think the main thing, like others have pointed out, is that griefing is controlled/heavily penalised so it just doesn't ruin the experience for people.

    But i also pointed how these examples of yours are effecting to whole playerbase and not just to PvP players. And if we need to choose which group these ruining PvE activies are hitting harder, it will be PvE oriented players, because their focus is more in PvE content. Ganking will also hit harder to PvE oriented players, because in most cases their gaming experience will be ruined if they are forced to participate to PvP.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    We may be talking about different degrees of ganking here. If it's constant ganking like bullying then we both agree that it's the worst experience you can have. I was talking about being ganked once in a while.






  • Ravudha said:
    We may be talking about different degrees of non-consensual sex here. If it's constant non-consensual sex like bullying then we both agree that it's the worst experience you can have. I was talking about being non-consensual sexed once in a while.






    Let's change your ganking to non-consensual sex and see how that statement reads.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Ravudha said:
    We may be talking about different degrees of hugs here. If it's constant hugging like bullying then we both agree that it's the worst experience you can have. I was talking about being huged once in a while.

    Let's change your ganking to hugs and see how that statement reads.
    I prefer hugs.
  • Ravudha said:
    We may be talking about different degrees of non-consensual sex here. If it's constant non-consensual sex like bullying then we both agree that it's the worst experience you can have. I was talking about being non-consensual sexed once in a while.






    Let's change your ganking to non-consensual sex and see how that statement reads.
    Of course then the statement becomes abhorrent, but that's because it's a completely different meaning.

    I also would like to avoid non-consensual hugs, especially in excess *shudder*.
  • Since we know that gathering flowers will be a thing and that you can loot greens for a higher percentage when they don't fight back we can expect to see "Yeah, I ganked her so hard, after I was done she was de-flowered."
  • So far this game is a no for me. I"m watching development hoping it turns into a yes but from the direction I see I'm having doubts. If their vision holds true it does look to be a great game coming though.
    As far as equating ganking to mob or node tagging is ridiculous. If I make a melee char I know what is coming from ranged classes, I just run and try to get the next mob that spawns. I"m not running back from town for my corpse with xp debt and resource loss.

    Here is how corruption works, so far as explained.
    I roll into an area to farm copper ore. I see 3 people farming copper ore. I call my 2 or 3 friends and we come in and gank the crap out of you 1 at a time. take your meager drops. Then we go back to our hideaway/farm/safe place and pull in our alts to kill each other(main way to lose corruption) for a few/5/10 minutes. Lose all our corruption then come back nice and green. We do that 3 or 4 times in an area, you stop coming there. We now own the copper ore area and have created a pvp hub for a resource.
    The pvper just won. The PvEer just had  his hour/day of playing ruined and has to rely on friends to escort him to farm a simple resource.

    Its that simple. While I would not be ganking anyone or playing this way, this is exactly how it will go. There will be gank squads for pleasure/resource/mob control. This game so far is an open world PvP game.

    I'm still watching though. Love some of the ideas these devs are having and they sound like they actually care. For you PvP players. This looks like its shaping up to be an awesome game.
    This has already been pointed out to Intrepid as a possible issue, and they have taken that on board, along with numerous other loopholes.

    Until we are in a position to test out the full corruption system in game, we are not in any position at all to assume that the above would even be possible.

    One very simple solution to many potential loopholes that I hope (though have no way of knowing) Intrepid consider is making it so that corruption can't be removed from a any character on your account if it is killed by a character that is on the same account as any guild members of any of your characters, and also limit the corruption reduction from occurring due to kills from characters from the same account.

    Another potential solution would be to make any items you drop fall in a nearby random location, rather than drop right at your feet. That way, even if you have friends kill you to remove corruption you are still triggering the drop chance of items, and are not at all guaranteed you will find them again.

    Again, until we see the actual details of how Intrepid set the system up, we are in no real position to make assumptions.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Ravudha said:
    We may be talking about different degrees of ganking here. If it's constant ganking like bullying then we both agree that it's the worst experience you can have. I was talking about being ganked once in a while.
    I was talking ganking once in a while, because constant ganking from same player or group goes for category bullying/griefing. Yeah we can agree with that. But if you ask this (to be ganked once in a while) from PvE centric players who dont want to participate any non-consensual fights, they can tell you how badly they will feel even ganked just occasionally. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Ferryman said:
    Ravudha said:
    We may be talking about different degrees of ganking here. If it's constant ganking like bullying then we both agree that it's the worst experience you can have. I was talking about being ganked once in a while.
    I was talking ganking once in a while, because constant ganking from same player or group goes for category bullying/griefing. Yeah we can agree with that. But if you ask this (to be ganked once in a while) from PvE centric players who dont want to participate any non-consensual fights, they can tell you how badly they will feel even ganked just occasionally. 
    Sure, I understand. No one denies that. My point is I can easily tell you other situations where PvP and PvE players have felt more upset/angry/frustrated than when they were ganked. Now we have no clear way to compare the emotions of these individuals and therefore no clear way to generalise that to conclude one group suffers more than another.

    I don't deny people have unpleasant experiences, but I feel a good solution isn't to prevent these 'unpleasant' things happening - it's to play with the right mindset and expectations that "sure, there will be frustration and challenges, ups and downs, but that's just all part of this living, breathing game world...I'll just work hard and get rewarded in the end, even if some stuff happens along the way". :smile:
  • I'm worried about the opposite.  I'm not a ganker, but there are SO MANY systems that so heavily deter PKing that I am worried it will be too rare for the bounty hunters.

    Exploitation of the corruption system is pretty dangerous, but in the last stream they answered a question about anti-cheating 
    http://www.aocwiki.net/Ashes_of_Creation_Livestream_2018-6-4#What_plans_do_you_have_for_a_thorough_anti-cheat_system.2C_especially_with_the_economy_being_so_ingrained_into_system.3F

    Basically they won't tell us how they catch cheaters, I'm guessing AI.  Alot will be automated.

    Every game always has exploitable loopholes and they are almost always found and closed.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Ferryman said:
    Ravudha said:
    We may be talking about different degrees of ganking here. If it's constant ganking like bullying then we both agree that it's the worst experience you can have. I was talking about being ganked once in a while.
    I was talking ganking once in a while, because constant ganking from same player or group goes for category bullying/griefing. Yeah we can agree with that. But if you ask this (to be ganked once in a while) from PvE centric players who dont want to participate any non-consensual fights, they can tell you how badly they will feel even ganked just occasionally. 
    Totally understand people feel bad in these situations. My point is I can easily show PvX/PvP/PvE/any players feeling worse in other situations, so we can't generalise to say people who get ganked once in a while suffer more. To me, ganking once in a while is a normal part of sharing a game world and if people can accept all other kinds of frustration/disappointment with other things then I think the best thing to do is play with the mindset that ganking is just one of the challenges the game includes - being part of one living, breathing world means there will be challenges and competition no matter how you play.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    What you seem to be talking about is subjective frustration.
    What people who are against non-consensual PvP combat are talking about is a response to objective set-backs caused by other players. Loss of items, significantly delayed progression, etc.

    And, where you might be able to list ways that loss of items and significantly delayed progression could also occur from PvE, PvEers would probably agree with you that those options should not be possible in the game either.

    Saying that ganking is a normal part of sharing a world is like saying that slavery and muggings and murder are normal parts of sharing a world.
    "If you didn't want your car stolen, you shouldn't have left it where it could be stolen - if you don't like it, don't own a car. Sometimes your car might get stolen. That's life. Nothing to complain about.
    People have always owned slaves. Nothing wrong with that. That's life."

  • Dygz said:
    What you seem to be talking about is subjective frustration.
    What people who are against non-consensual PvP combat are talking about is a response to objective set-backs caused by other players. Loss of items, significantly delayed progression, etc.

    And, where you might be able to list ways that loss of items and significantly delayed progression could also occur from PvE, PvEers would probably agree with you that those options should not be possible in the game either.

    Saying that ganking is a normal part of sharing a world is like saying that slavery and muggings and murder are normal parts of sharing a world.
    "If you didn't want your car stolen, you shouldn't have left it where it could be stolen - if you don't like it, don't own a car. Sometimes your car might get stolen. That's life. Nothing to complain about.
    People have always owned slaves. Nothing wrong with that. That's life."

    This here. I have watched this forum and tried to think of a way to show and this right here fits the bill.
  • Dygz said:
    What you seem to be talking about is subjective frustration.
    What people who are against non-consensual PvP combat are talking about is a response to objective set-backs caused by other players. Loss of items, significantly delayed progression, etc.

    And, where you might be able to list ways that loss of items and significantly delayed progression could also occur from PvE, PvEers would probably agree with you that those options should not be possible in the game either.

    Saying that ganking is a normal part of sharing a world is like saying that slavery and muggings and murder are normal parts of sharing a world.
    "If you didn't want your car stolen, you shouldn't have left it where it could be stolen - if you don't like it, don't own a car. Sometimes your car might get stolen. That's life. Nothing to complain about.
    People have always owned slaves. Nothing wrong with that. That's life."

    Well said!  Thank you.   
    It's sad that so many feel or think the "taking" of anything for their pleasure alone at the expense of another is supposed to be the norm.
This discussion has been closed.