Any mechanic that sees a piece of content available for just one day, or an aspect of progress that can't be caught up the next day, does exactly this.
In order to avoid this, any and all content needs to be able to be done the following day at absolutely no detriment to the player - real or perceived.
If there is a piece of content available for me to do today, but that I can also do tomorrow (as is necessary as per the above) then it by definition is not a daily task.
It's a Daily task because that type of task can only be done once per 24 hour period.
In Ashes, it will be common that we cannot do all of the content - the content will dynamically change and will not always be available - that's not something that will be restricted to Dailies.
In Wiz101, what changes day to day for the Daily Quests is the 1 mob that needs to be killed. Monday, it might be "Go to Colossus Blvd and kill one Cyclops." Tuesday it might be "Go to Firecat Alley and kill one Fire Elf." It doesn't matter when I do the Daily - if I'm on Day 4 of the Daily Rewards Calendar (10 Crowns), I remain on Day 4 until I do a Daily. That could be Monday, it could be Tuesday, it could be a month from now. It's no different in that respect than any other quest. As with any quest, I can complete the quest on Monday or Tuesday or a month from now, there is no feeling of detriment to the player just for skipping a day or several days. Wiz101 Dailies missions seem to be on some kind of rotation - I dunno if the missions repeat every week or every two weeks.
In Apoc, there are two Dailies per day. The reward for each is always 2K xp. The specific quests offered change each day. Again, they are on some kind of rotation. They repeat in some fashion every week or two weeks - whatever. There is no feeling of, "OMG! I missed my Dailies!" Sometimes, the Dailies that role through are not tasks I want to do, so I skip both of them. Sometimes, I skip one. Sometimes, I complete both during one match. Sometimes, I only log in and complete one Daily. Sometimes, I log in and complete both Dailies and one or several Weeklies. All depends on how much time I have and whether the tasks offered are tasks I will enjoy attempting. If the tasks offered on Monday aren't something I want to do, I can just wait til the next day...it is highly likely that the next day there will be at least one Daily that I enjoy. Which is also great because sometimes I have completed all the Weeklies I enjoy doing and I'm stuck with the Weeklies I'm never going to work on... there will be at least a few days with Dailies I enjoy.
In NMS, there is one Daily per day. The type of mission it is changes from day to day, similar to Apoc: might be a kill mission one day, might be a fetch mission the next day. But, I'm not missing out on anything significant by skipping a day. Killing a wolf on Wednesday instead of a boar on Monday is not missing out on anything. And I get just as many cosmetic credits as I will from any Daily Mission. Whenever I have the credits I need to buy the cosmetic I want, I buy the cosmetic I want. There is no detriment to the player for missing a day.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I do not want daily chores. I am more open to weekly's so long as they aren't a massive pain to get done, but definitely not dailies as I would rather resources put into dailies be used elsewhere in the game.
It's a Daily task because that type of task can only be done once per 24 hour period.
Exactly.
If I miss out on it today, there will be another one tomorrow that I could do, but that one tomorrow would be available to me regardless of whether I did todays or not. So, if I miss todays, that means in a 2 day period I am only going to do one, and there is no more available to me.
Sure, regular content in Ashes will change, but if I miss a day of running that dungeon today and then by tomorrow it gets changed for a different one I am then able to run that different one twice. I am able to make up for the fact that I spent time out of the game.
This is the key thing any content need to have - if I don't do it today, I should not be at a disadvantage. I can see there being a disadvantage after two or three days, for sure, but not after one - that is objectively bad game design.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
If you don't do the Daily one day or many days, you won't be at a disadvantage. The only advantage these Dailies provide is that people who only have 10-20 minutes to play have one or two quests per day that they can easily complete if they want to as opposed to not having any quest that can be easily completed in 10-20 minutes. You keep talking about disadvantage where no disadvantage exists.
Making up for the fact that you spent time out of the game is not even a thing.
If you don't do the Daily one day or many days, you won't be at a disadvantage. The only advantage these Dailies provide is that people who only have 10-20 minutes to play have one or two quests per day that they can easily complete if they want to as opposed to not having any quest that can be easily completed in 10-20 minutes. You keep talking about disadvantage where no disadvantage exists.
Making up for the fact that you spent time out of the game is not even a thing.
I'm not (and have never) said that there is no place for 10 - 20 minute content blocks.
What I am saying is that there is literally no reason why those content blocks need to be applied to a daily mechanic.
It isn't the content that is up for debate, it is the limit. In all your posts on the topic, you completely gloss over any notion of trying to explain why these types of content need this artificial block placed on them.
They don't need it, that is what is up for debate. That is ALL that is up for debate.
If you want to carry on the debate, at least make a cursory attempt at addressing that point, for a change - not that I expect you to, the only reason you've avoided attempting to address that point (the only point) is because you don't have a reaponse to it, and you are too stubborn to admit you are wrong.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
That, again, is your poor reading comprehension. I addressed that point 4 days ago on Page 4.
That, again, is your poor reading comprehension. I addressed that point 4 days ago on Page 4.
No you didn't.
If you think you did, quote the relevent portion of your post so I don't have to go back and sift through all the drivel you wrote about games that have no applicable relevence to Ashes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes. I absolutely did. If you don't want to sift through the drivel - that's on you.
Yes. I absolutely did. If you don't want to sift through the drivel - that's on you.
You can't post that much bullshit that has no relevence and expect anyone to actually read it.
I'm just assuming you can't find it either - since it isn't there.
Edit to add; the notion of trying to look through that pile of trash - largely about a children's game that has zero relevence here - is unappealing enough by itself. The notion of doing that to try and find something you may consider a response to the question at hand (as opposed to something others would consider as such) is laughable.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
Wiz101 is actually a family game; not a children's game.
One of your problems is that you spend too much assuming things that you can't back up.
Just about everything you post is laughable... and absurd. I told you where to find the quotes, so I obviously know where they are. I'm done discussing this with you. Have fun!
Wiz101 is actually a family game; not a children's game.
Keep telling yourself that - when you are talking about a "family" version of an otherwise firmly adult genre, the difference is children.
Wizard 101 is made with children in mind- attention spans, moods, skill, comprehension.
Ashes is not.
While both products serve their purpose (or will serve its purpose in the case of Ashes) the two do not belong in the same conversation. They are as different from each other as SpongeBob SquarePants is from Game of Thrones.
You're done discussing this with me because the quote you "sent" me to find doesn't exist, and sending me to find a non-existent quote and then claiming you are done with the discussion when I don't produce it is preferable to you than admitting you are wrong on this point.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm too obstinate to look up the quotes you directed me to because I refuse to admit that I'm wrong. I see why you refuse to discuss this with me further. Sorry to waste your time.
Fixed that for you.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Should someone be saying 'Get a room!'?
Or just a private discussion area?
I'm too obstinate to look up the quotes you directed me to because I refuse to admit that I'm wrong. I see why you refuse to discuss this with me further. Sorry to waste your time.
Fixed that for you.
Not at all, I actually did waste some time looking for anything that could be considered an argument as to why 10-20 minute content needed to be set to expire every 24 hours, and couldn't see it.
I've wasted time on it, if you want to claim it's there, quite literally all you need to do is quote the post it's in, and delete the non-relevent parts of said post. You don't need to waste time looking for it, assuming it does exist as you claim ot does.
Editing the above post from its original form as a smiley face to what it is now would have taken you longer.
If city officials or crafters can list resources that they need and you can get money and exp for turning in a certain amount at a bounty or resource board basically be a community version, but without a limit to doing it just once a day?
The people that want something to do that is quick every day can still do some work and help their city or local crafters and the people that don't like dailies and won't do them anyway can ignore them and go do whatever else.
It serves the same purpose as dailies with the benefit of actually aiding your city or favorite tavern/blacksmith/whatever and is less arbitrary than "go kill X" or "go find X amount" with no real benefits.
Yeah, that is the sort of thing I see being in Ashes.
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T ElfMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't mind repeatable quests, but I abhor dailies. I'm hoping Intrepid goes for repeatables.
Formerly T-Elf
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Having gone back to GW2 and experienced the daily quests there my outlook on them has changed a bit. To me, there are 3 dangers with implementing daily quests:
1. If you miss a single daily your character becomes objectively weaker than someone who did all the dailies.
2. The dailies require you to do things you don't want to do.
3. It creates a skinner box environment where you are conditioned to log in every day.
GW2 avoids the first 2 problems but the third is still present. First of all, the reward for doing the dailies is a bit of loot (which amounts to basically nothing in the grand scheme of things) and 2 gold pieces. There is no difference in strength here so missing out on doing the dailies doesn't really hurt you too much. Second, in order to get the 2 gold reward you only need to complete 3 daily quests, and they offer a huge variety. First of all the dailies are split into 4 categories - Open World, Instanced PvE, PvP and WvW. With such a good variety of things to choose from you never feel forced to do anything you don't like doing.
The only problem I have left with daily quests is the skinner box it creates. Yes I know that if I miss a daily my character doesn't get weaker relative to everyone else, but I still feel like I missed out by not logging in each day. I feel compelled to log in each day and do the dailies even on days where I wouldn't log in usually.
I completely understand where @Dygz is coming from about wanting structured things to do that only take a short amount of time, but I'd prefer a way that didn't condition me to log in every day.
I completely understand where @Dygz is coming from about wanting structured things to do that only take a short amount of time, but I'd prefer a way that didn't condition me to log in every day.
Completely agree.
Turn tbe notion of "do once a day" in to "do 7 times a week" and I'm all in.
In my own opinion, I don't want daily missions. As most of you, I have already played other games with many daily missions and they make me feel obliged to do them in order to receive some extra benefit, it becomes repetitive, and you end up doing the same thing for hours every day, because the benefit of the daily missions is greather. I prefer a balance in all the task you can do in the game, in wich you can choose what to do freely, without the system telling you "today you must make this whole list".
On the other hand, weekly missions are not a bad idea, since in cases like those, you choose for yourself, what day of the week, and at what time you want to do certain things, that's more fun and less stressful, more than having to do Day after day the same list of tasks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
GW2 is a great example of the kind of design for Dailies that no one wants and that Steven says Ashes won’t have. NWO Dailies were similar to what cite for GW2. I hated those.
But, the Dailies for Wiz101, NMS and APOC are not like that. Which is why I’ve repeatedly said that it depends I depends on the design of the Daily. I think it depends on the design of the reward schedule (and reward type) specifically.
For instance, with APOC, it is fine to skip days because we can easily reach Level 50 in 12 weeks even if we skipped two or more weeks worth of Dailies. And the rewards are just cosmetics and embers rather than actual gear or Adventurer XP. You don’t really fall behind anything if you miss a day.
Same for NMS rewards because the cosmetics will still be there whenever you accrue enough cosmetic coins to purchase the cosmetics or housing decorations. Skipping a days or weeks has no negative effects, but you are guaranteed a quest that can be completed in 10-20 minutes any day that you choose to log in.
Similar for Wiz101. With Wiz101, you basically return to the same moment you left off in the reward schedule.
I'll prefer micro event that occurs randomly in a node at any time and who will be influenced by the node type and lvl . This way at any given time you can log one and do some quest like with reward base on the event that happen near you or you choose to go with, or you can go to do them the full day it up to you.
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xlangatangxMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That system would be fine imo if it added in the ability to catch up. If you don't do the daily today, you can do it twice tomorrow if you want to.
Daily quest: Christmas advent calendar.
Requirement: Open the number on the calendar that matches the current date.
Reward: Surprise chocolate. We could all use more chocolate. Bonus: If there is an unopened number on the calendar below the current date, don't tell anyone else. It belongs to you now.
My worthless opinion on the topic of dailies...
Dailies = bad as long as they lead to exclusivity or unique progression. If Fisherman Jack offers a daily fishing quest where he gives you a handful of common to rare bait for completing it, who cares? If he gives you a small but still rewarding amount of money, still don't care. Make it repeatable. Make it a daily. Doesn't matter bc the people who DO take the time to complete those quests are only getting a nominal reward that can be found / received by other means. The point here, there is no progression or exclusivity to be gained that can't be gained by anyone else spending 15 minutes clearing a dungeon or exploring. I plan on offering plenty of this kind of 'daily/repeatable' work once I get my freehold up and running.
The problem with dailies is when they are linked to unique currencies, upgrades, and resources that are otherwise incredibly rare / impossible to get otherwise. If our Fishyboi Jack gives you unique materials that steadily upgrades your fishing rod making it better than anyone else's, then I have a problem. You would be forced to log in every day to get those materials, or forever fall behind in the fishing industry. This takes the fun out of gaming. If you are a fisherman and want to be competitive, you are REQUIRED to complete these quests every day or suffer the consequences of falling behind. I'm sure people have already stated this, but I only read 1/3 of this thread.
Also... Who cares what model is used as long as the rewards don't give a competitive advantage in the game? This thread isn't about the specific model that would be ok, it is what extent should dailies affect the game. No model is better than others because they are all balls (9/10 professionals agree). Wiz 101 vs WoW vs XXXXX doesn't matter. If you like one model more than another bc you are comfortable with it and afraid of change, then cool. Either way, missing a day = missing rewards to some degree = balls.
TLDR: Dailies are fine as long as they don't give unique / incredibly rare items OR huge sums of resources non-proportional to the amount of work required to complete the quest. Also chocolate is good.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Similar for Wiz101. With Wiz101, you basically return to the same moment you left off in the reward schedule.
Yeah, but if you miss a day, you are a day behind others on that schedule.
That system would be fine imo if it added in the ability to catch up. If you don't do the daily today, you can do it twice tomorrow if you want to.
There really is no such thing as being a day behind other players on that schedule - there is no way to even know what Day other players' characters might be on.
My main character is on Day 8. My alt is on Day 4. They will stay there until I choose to do a Daily. Some days I choose not to do any. Some days I choose to only do the Daily for one character. Some days I choose to do the Daily for both. The rewards are just bonuses. But, I could have my alt on the same day as my main if I wanted to. It just doesn't matter because the daily rewards are relatively trivial.
Also, if I really wanted to "catch up" by doing multiple Dailies per day, I could do one Daily on my both characters. I could even make 6 characters and do six Dailies per day if I wanted to. But, if I have the time to do that, it's really more beneficial and time efficient to just do regular questing for one character. The primary point of Daily quests is ensuring that players can complete at least one quest any day that they log in.
In the NMS and APOC Daily Reward structure, it would be like saying, "OMG! I'm a day behind getting that emote that Dygz got yesterday, and if don't catch up today, he will get that potted plant before I do! No fair! Dygz got that Warrior Princess skin a day earlier than I did because I couldn't play yesterday."
There is no need to catch up. The concept of "catching up" is not even a thing because the rewards are just bonuses and there is no competition.
This is a non-issue in these games. But, there are games where this is an issue.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Also... Who cares what model is used as long as the rewards don't give a competitive advantage in the game? This thread isn't about the specific model that would be ok, it is what extent should dailies affect the game. No model is better than others because they are all balls (9/10 professionals agree). Wiz 101 vs WoW vs XXXXX doesn't matter. If you like one model more than another bc you are comfortable with it and afraid of change, then cool. Either way, missing a day = missing rewards to some degree = balls.
Some models are better than others.
In Wiz101, Day 4 Reward is 20 Crowns, Day 9 is 30 Crowns, Day 14 is 50 Crowns. Day 15 is a housing decoration. If I'm on Day 14, it doesn't matter how many days I skip doing the Daily, I will be on Day 14 until I choose to do that Daily. The rewards calendar will reset to Day 1 after I complete Day 15 for that character...whenever that is. Which is great. Skipping a day or a week or a month doesn't penalize me. I just pick up wherever I left off. If I do 30 days of Dailies on one character in Wiz101, I will be rewarded with 200 Crowns or 600 Crowns in 3 months. In APOC, I can earn about 900 Embers in 3 months. Seems reasonable.
In NWO, if I can't login for Day 9/30 Crowns, I get reset to Day 1. If I can't login for Day 14/50 Crowns, I get reset to Day 1. That design is horrible. Players don't want that design. The Ashes devs are avoiding that design. The Ashes model will be better than the NWO model...according to what Steven has said about the reward structure for these types of quests.
TLDR: Dailies are fine as long as they don't give unique / incredibly rare items OR huge sums of resources non-proportional to the amount of work required to complete the quest. Also chocolate is good.
Right.
Dailies should be fine if the rewards are cosmetics, emotes, housing decorations and/or Embers... and if we aren't penalized for missing a day by being reset to the beginning reward cycle.
Through APOC, the Ashes devs have already provided us with a great model for Dailies.
If I'm on Day 14, it doesn't matter how many days I skip doing the Daily, I will be on Day 14 until I choose to do that Daily.
I'm going to assume that if daily quests exist, there is material advantage in doing them. It may not be much, but it will be a material advantage. If it turns out that there is no material advantage to any potential daily quests in Ashes, literally no one would care about how they are implemented and so it is not worth discussing non-material dailies at all.
Now, with your kids game example, if you and I are both on day 14, and you decide to take your significant other out for dinner, but I don't, then the next day you are still on day 14 and I am on day 15.
Unless I skip a day, you will never catch that up.
That is why this system is just as bad as any other daily system - unless small changes are made.
Those changes could be as simple as making the reward structure last for 25 days, and then restarting it at the start of every month. I'm not a big fan of this method, as this kind of reward structure always has the best rewards at the end, and if you reset it before people have the chance to finish, they lose the progress they have made thus far - even if this system does give players between 3 and 6 built in redundant days to get to their 25.
The other way this system could be improved is by making the quests required to advance one day on the reward structure able to be completed 7 times in 7 days, rather than 1 time in 1 day.
This would mean that while we are both on day 14 now, and you take your significant other out for dinner, when you come in tomorrow and I am on day 15 and complete one more to get to 16, you are simply able to do two days worth and then we are both on day 16, even though you took a day away from the game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
The "advantage" of doing a Daily is that it's nice to be able to log in on a day when you only have 10-20 minutes to play and be able to check something off as completed and get some kind of reward.
An example of an NMS Daily is "Go to xx planet (in this nearby star system) and take a picture of a monolith)."
An example of an APOC Daily is "Open 3 treasure chests."
An example of a Wiz101 Daily is "Go to Colossus Blvd. and kill 1 Cyclops" (That's a Level 7 mob and I am Level 50.)
This is great for an MMORPG, which is supposed to have a masses of players running around in the world.
In APOC, if there is a quest to open 20 chests, it's likely going to take me 3+ matches to complete... 45+ minutes. I'm going to wait until I have a day with 45 minutes to devote to that. If I only have 15 minutes to play, I'm not going to login just to partially complete that quest.
If I only have 15 minutes and there is a Daily to open 3 chests, I will login for one 15 minute match. Because I can complete a quest and get a reward.
The reward for the Open 3 Chests quest rewards 2K xp.
The reward for the Open 20 Chests quest rewards 6.5K xp.
If I could do the Open 3 Chests quest multiple times, that would mean I get 8K xp for only opening 12 chests.
Which is why Dailies have a limit of once or twice per day.
Just because you assume there is material advantage does not mean your assumption is correct.
Dailies don't have to be designed with a material advantage and this thread is to discuss designs that we would want and that we don't want.
I would not want a design like the one in GW2, which provides some advantage.
I would be fine with a design like the ones in Wiz101, NMS and APOC, which don't provide an advantage and also don't make you feel penalized for skipping days.
I don't know why you are obsessed with the concept of catching up. "Catching up" is not a concern with the Wiz101, NMS and APOC Daily designs. It's like complaining that you can't pick your nose with your elbow.
No one is going to be concerned about that. It's not a thing people are going to be trying to do.
Your Wiz101 example is flawed.
I assume what you mean is that on Monday we were both on Day 13 and completed the Daily.
There is no way for me to know what Day you are on. You could be on Day 4 for all I know. But, lets assume I happen to know you were also on Day 13. I dunno why I should care, but let's assume I know.
Tuesday I take my SO out for dinner while you complete the Daily. So, you get 50 crowns/embers one day before I do. Big whoop. What advantage does that give you? None.
Wednesday, I will be on Day 14. You will be on Day 15. If we both complete the Daily, I will get 50 crowns/embers and you will get a housing decoration. I'm not decorating my house, so really, that reward is just trash to me. Wednesday, my character has essentially "caught up" to yours. But, I don't know why that matters. I don't care how many crowns/embers you have because that has no affect on my gameplay. I especially don't care that you got some random housing decoration and I didn't.
There would be no reason for me to be in competition with you regarding Daily rewards, but if I really wanted to make sure I got 50 crowns on Tuesday, I have some options.
1: The Daily changes at 9PM, so going out to dinner probably would not prevent me from finding 10-20 minutes to do the Daily. I could probably finish the Daily while my SO is getting dressed. Or get up at 3AM, finish the Daily and be back in bed by 3:20AM.
2: Let's assume that in addition to dinner, I had work and class and homework to finish, so I really just did not have 10-20 minutes to spare on gaming within the 24 hour period. I could just cycle through my alts and get 100+ Crowns on Day14 instead of 50 Crowns. If you only had one character, I would be ahead of you with regard to Crowns rewards. But why would I care how many characters you have? It doesn't matter one bit.
I'm probably not going to spend Day 15 getting 6 housing decorations because those are trash to me. I couldn't care less how many housing decorations you have or even how many Crowns or Embers you have.
In Wiz101, the Daily Reward structure has a 15 day calendar. It resets whenever your character gets the 15th reward. Doesn't matter whether it takes a player 15 days or 2 weeks or 2 months to do 15 Dailies. Real world month does not effect anything. No reason to have anything reset at the start of the month - it's meaningless.
The "best rewards" are at the end, I suppose, but you can take however long you want to get to Day 15.
It's not possible to reset before players finish. And it's not possible to lose progress. Whenever a character gets the Day 15 reward, that character's calendar resets.
In NWO, yes, you can lose progress. Sounds like this is also true for GW2.
In Wiz101, NMS and APOC, it is not possible to lose progress by skipping days.
In Wiz101, NMS and APOC there really is no reason to want to do 7 Dailies in one day.
Being able to complete 7 Dailies in one day defeats the purpose of having Dailies - which is to encourage players to log in even on days when they only have 10-20 minutes to play.
Nobody cares what Day some other player's character is on!!! That is not a thing!!!
The "advantage" of doing a Daily is that it's nice to be able to log in on a day when you only have 10-20 minutes to play and be able to check something off as completed and get some kind of reward.
Explain to me how allowing people to catch up tomorrow if they didn't do their daily today nullifies this one and only advantage.
Just because you assume there is material advantage does not mean your assumption is correct.
Dailies don't have to be designed with a material advantage and this thread is to discuss designs that we would want and that we don't want.
As I said, I am assuming material advantage because no one gives a shit about dailies if they have no material advantage.
This thread is based on the idea that dailies will exist and that people will want to do them. In order for people to want to do them, there would have to be material advantage to doing them, so that assumption is safe.
Should we get word from Intrepid that what ever system they put in place offers no material advantage, we can have another discussion about dailies at that point (I won't take part), but for now, the assumption is material advantage because it is the only way the discussion continues in any form.
Nobody cares what Day some other player's character is on!!! That is not a thing!!!
It isn't about what day the other character is on, it is about the fact that if you take your significant other (significant enough to not be reduced to a two letter acronym) out for dinner, then I am one day ahead of you. It is about the fact that you missed out on a days worth of rewards that you can't get back in any way.
In a children's game, that system probably works well. Children look at where they are at, that is all they see, that is all they care about. Adults though, we know that if we miss a day, we miss a small amount of material gain that we can't ever get back (because we are assuming a small amount of material gain).
Remember, at it's core, Ashes is a game where you are competing directly with almost all other players on the server. Missing out on material gain that your competitors are not missing out on is actually a big deal.
Likewise, missing out on taking your significant other out for dinner is an even bigger deal.
A system where you can have both is inherently better than a system where you can't, and you have STILL failed to explain why a system like I have suggested in any way diminishes what you claim to be the biggest advantage to a daily quest system in that it allows people a short thing to do if they log on and only have a few minutes (a notion - I remind you - which I disagree with entirely as players should be able to find something rewarding to do themselves, yet I'm allowing you to hold on to because without that one notion, there is no reason for daily quests to exist at all, and thus literally no discussion to have).
The "advantage" of doing a Daily is that it's nice to be able to log in on a day when you only have 10-20 minutes to play and be able to check something off as completed and get some kind of reward.
Explain to me how allowing people to catch up tomorrow if they didn't do their daily today nullifies this one and only advantage.
Just because you assume there is material advantage does not mean your assumption is correct.
Dailies don't have to be designed with a material advantage and this thread is to discuss designs that we would want and that we don't want.
As I said, I am assuming material advantage because no one gives a shit about dailies if they have no material advantage.
This thread is based on the idea that dailies will exist and that people will want to do them. In order for people to want to do them, there would have to be material advantage to doing them, so that assumption is safe.
Should we get word from Intrepid that what ever system they put in place offers no material advantage, we can have another discussion about dailies at that point (I won't take part), but for now, the assumption is material advantage because it is the only way the discussion continues in any form.
Nobody cares what Day some other player's character is on!!! That is not a thing!!!
It isn't about what day the other character is on, it is about the fact that if you take your significant other (significant enough to not be reduced to a two letter acronym) out for dinner, then I am one day ahead of you. It is about the fact that you missed out on a days worth of rewards that you can't get back in any way.
In a children's game, that system probably works well. Children look at where they are at, that is all they see, that is all they care about. Adults though, we know that if we miss a day, we miss a small amount of material gain that we can't ever get back (because we are assuming a small amount of material gain).
Remember, at it's core, Ashes is a game where you are competing directly with almost all other players on the server. Missing out on material gain that your competitors are not missing out on is actually a big deal.
Likewise, missing out on taking your significant other out for dinner is an even bigger deal.
A system where you can have both is inherently better than a system where you can't, and you have STILL failed to explain why a system like I have suggested in any way diminishes what you claim to be the biggest advantage to a daily quest system in that it allows people a short thing to do if they log on and only have a few minutes (a notion - I remind you - which I disagree with entirely as players should be able to find something rewarding to do themselves, yet I'm allowing you to hold on to because without that one notion, there is no reason for daily quests to exist at all, and thus literally no discussion to have).
I sincerely recommend not responding to him. His entire premise boils down to “I want bonus rewards without having to make any decisions for myself and I want them for doing basically nothing” as if there won’t be plenty to do and plenty of rewards to earn by default from the basic organic quests that will pop up constantly.
He’s just indecisive and overly entitled, the best way to let this fall into the void is to ignore it.
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In Ashes, it will be common that we cannot do all of the content - the content will dynamically change and will not always be available - that's not something that will be restricted to Dailies.
In Wiz101, what changes day to day for the Daily Quests is the 1 mob that needs to be killed. Monday, it might be "Go to Colossus Blvd and kill one Cyclops." Tuesday it might be "Go to Firecat Alley and kill one Fire Elf." It doesn't matter when I do the Daily - if I'm on Day 4 of the Daily Rewards Calendar (10 Crowns), I remain on Day 4 until I do a Daily. That could be Monday, it could be Tuesday, it could be a month from now. It's no different in that respect than any other quest. As with any quest, I can complete the quest on Monday or Tuesday or a month from now, there is no feeling of detriment to the player just for skipping a day or several days. Wiz101 Dailies missions seem to be on some kind of rotation - I dunno if the missions repeat every week or every two weeks.
In Apoc, there are two Dailies per day. The reward for each is always 2K xp. The specific quests offered change each day. Again, they are on some kind of rotation. They repeat in some fashion every week or two weeks - whatever. There is no feeling of, "OMG! I missed my Dailies!" Sometimes, the Dailies that role through are not tasks I want to do, so I skip both of them. Sometimes, I skip one. Sometimes, I complete both during one match. Sometimes, I only log in and complete one Daily. Sometimes, I log in and complete both Dailies and one or several Weeklies. All depends on how much time I have and whether the tasks offered are tasks I will enjoy attempting. If the tasks offered on Monday aren't something I want to do, I can just wait til the next day...it is highly likely that the next day there will be at least one Daily that I enjoy. Which is also great because sometimes I have completed all the Weeklies I enjoy doing and I'm stuck with the Weeklies I'm never going to work on... there will be at least a few days with Dailies I enjoy.
In NMS, there is one Daily per day. The type of mission it is changes from day to day, similar to Apoc: might be a kill mission one day, might be a fetch mission the next day. But, I'm not missing out on anything significant by skipping a day. Killing a wolf on Wednesday instead of a boar on Monday is not missing out on anything. And I get just as many cosmetic credits as I will from any Daily Mission. Whenever I have the credits I need to buy the cosmetic I want, I buy the cosmetic I want. There is no detriment to the player for missing a day.
If I miss out on it today, there will be another one tomorrow that I could do, but that one tomorrow would be available to me regardless of whether I did todays or not. So, if I miss todays, that means in a 2 day period I am only going to do one, and there is no more available to me.
Sure, regular content in Ashes will change, but if I miss a day of running that dungeon today and then by tomorrow it gets changed for a different one I am then able to run that different one twice. I am able to make up for the fact that I spent time out of the game.
This is the key thing any content need to have - if I don't do it today, I should not be at a disadvantage. I can see there being a disadvantage after two or three days, for sure, but not after one - that is objectively bad game design.
Making up for the fact that you spent time out of the game is not even a thing.
What I am saying is that there is literally no reason why those content blocks need to be applied to a daily mechanic.
It isn't the content that is up for debate, it is the limit. In all your posts on the topic, you completely gloss over any notion of trying to explain why these types of content need this artificial block placed on them.
They don't need it, that is what is up for debate. That is ALL that is up for debate.
If you want to carry on the debate, at least make a cursory attempt at addressing that point, for a change - not that I expect you to, the only reason you've avoided attempting to address that point (the only point) is because you don't have a reaponse to it, and you are too stubborn to admit you are wrong.
No you didn't.
If you think you did, quote the relevent portion of your post so I don't have to go back and sift through all the drivel you wrote about games that have no applicable relevence to Ashes.
I'm just assuming you can't find it either - since it isn't there.
Edit to add; the notion of trying to look through that pile of trash - largely about a children's game that has zero relevence here - is unappealing enough by itself. The notion of doing that to try and find something you may consider a response to the question at hand (as opposed to something others would consider as such) is laughable.
One of your problems is that you spend too much assuming things that you can't back up.
Just about everything you post is laughable... and absurd. I told you where to find the quotes, so I obviously know where they are. I'm done discussing this with you. Have fun!
Wizard 101 is made with children in mind- attention spans, moods, skill, comprehension.
Ashes is not.
While both products serve their purpose (or will serve its purpose in the case of Ashes) the two do not belong in the same conversation. They are as different from each other as SpongeBob SquarePants is from Game of Thrones.
You're done discussing this with me because the quote you "sent" me to find doesn't exist, and sending me to find a non-existent quote and then claiming you are done with the discussion when I don't produce it is preferable to you than admitting you are wrong on this point.
Or just a private discussion area?
I've wasted time on it, if you want to claim it's there, quite literally all you need to do is quote the post it's in, and delete the non-relevent parts of said post. You don't need to waste time looking for it, assuming it does exist as you claim ot does.
Editing the above post from its original form as a smiley face to what it is now would have taken you longer.
The people that want something to do that is quick every day can still do some work and help their city or local crafters and the people that don't like dailies and won't do them anyway can ignore them and go do whatever else.
It serves the same purpose as dailies with the benefit of actually aiding your city or favorite tavern/blacksmith/whatever and is less arbitrary than "go kill X" or "go find X amount" with no real benefits.
Formerly T-Elf
1. If you miss a single daily your character becomes objectively weaker than someone who did all the dailies.
2. The dailies require you to do things you don't want to do.
3. It creates a skinner box environment where you are conditioned to log in every day.
GW2 avoids the first 2 problems but the third is still present. First of all, the reward for doing the dailies is a bit of loot (which amounts to basically nothing in the grand scheme of things) and 2 gold pieces. There is no difference in strength here so missing out on doing the dailies doesn't really hurt you too much. Second, in order to get the 2 gold reward you only need to complete 3 daily quests, and they offer a huge variety. First of all the dailies are split into 4 categories - Open World, Instanced PvE, PvP and WvW. With such a good variety of things to choose from you never feel forced to do anything you don't like doing.
The only problem I have left with daily quests is the skinner box it creates. Yes I know that if I miss a daily my character doesn't get weaker relative to everyone else, but I still feel like I missed out by not logging in each day. I feel compelled to log in each day and do the dailies even on days where I wouldn't log in usually.
I completely understand where @Dygz is coming from about wanting structured things to do that only take a short amount of time, but I'd prefer a way that didn't condition me to log in every day.
Turn tbe notion of "do once a day" in to "do 7 times a week" and I'm all in.
On the other hand, weekly missions are not a bad idea, since in cases like those, you choose for yourself, what day of the week, and at what time you want to do certain things, that's more fun and less stressful, more than having to do Day after day the same list of tasks.
But, the Dailies for Wiz101, NMS and APOC are not like that. Which is why I’ve repeatedly said that it depends I depends on the design of the Daily. I think it depends on the design of the reward schedule (and reward type) specifically.
For instance, with APOC, it is fine to skip days because we can easily reach Level 50 in 12 weeks even if we skipped two or more weeks worth of Dailies. And the rewards are just cosmetics and embers rather than actual gear or Adventurer XP. You don’t really fall behind anything if you miss a day.
Same for NMS rewards because the cosmetics will still be there whenever you accrue enough cosmetic coins to purchase the cosmetics or housing decorations. Skipping a days or weeks has no negative effects, but you are guaranteed a quest that can be completed in 10-20 minutes any day that you choose to log in.
Similar for Wiz101. With Wiz101, you basically return to the same moment you left off in the reward schedule.
That system would be fine imo if it added in the ability to catch up. If you don't do the daily today, you can do it twice tomorrow if you want to.
Daily quest: Christmas advent calendar.
Requirement: Open the number on the calendar that matches the current date.
Reward: Surprise chocolate. We could all use more chocolate.
Bonus: If there is an unopened number on the calendar below the current date, don't tell anyone else. It belongs to you now.
My worthless opinion on the topic of dailies...
Dailies = bad as long as they lead to exclusivity or unique progression. If Fisherman Jack offers a daily fishing quest where he gives you a handful of common to rare bait for completing it, who cares? If he gives you a small but still rewarding amount of money, still don't care. Make it repeatable. Make it a daily. Doesn't matter bc the people who DO take the time to complete those quests are only getting a nominal reward that can be found / received by other means. The point here, there is no progression or exclusivity to be gained that can't be gained by anyone else spending 15 minutes clearing a dungeon or exploring. I plan on offering plenty of this kind of 'daily/repeatable' work once I get my freehold up and running.
The problem with dailies is when they are linked to unique currencies, upgrades, and resources that are otherwise incredibly rare / impossible to get otherwise. If our Fishyboi Jack gives you unique materials that steadily upgrades your fishing rod making it better than anyone else's, then I have a problem. You would be forced to log in every day to get those materials, or forever fall behind in the fishing industry. This takes the fun out of gaming. If you are a fisherman and want to be competitive, you are REQUIRED to complete these quests every day or suffer the consequences of falling behind. I'm sure people have already stated this, but I only read 1/3 of this thread.
Also... Who cares what model is used as long as the rewards don't give a competitive advantage in the game? This thread isn't about the specific model that would be ok, it is what extent should dailies affect the game. No model is better than others because they are all balls (9/10 professionals agree). Wiz 101 vs WoW vs XXXXX doesn't matter. If you like one model more than another bc you are comfortable with it and afraid of change, then cool. Either way, missing a day = missing rewards to some degree = balls.
TLDR: Dailies are fine as long as they don't give unique / incredibly rare items OR huge sums of resources non-proportional to the amount of work required to complete the quest. Also chocolate is good.
My main character is on Day 8. My alt is on Day 4. They will stay there until I choose to do a Daily. Some days I choose not to do any. Some days I choose to only do the Daily for one character. Some days I choose to do the Daily for both. The rewards are just bonuses. But, I could have my alt on the same day as my main if I wanted to. It just doesn't matter because the daily rewards are relatively trivial.
Also, if I really wanted to "catch up" by doing multiple Dailies per day, I could do one Daily on my both characters. I could even make 6 characters and do six Dailies per day if I wanted to. But, if I have the time to do that, it's really more beneficial and time efficient to just do regular questing for one character. The primary point of Daily quests is ensuring that players can complete at least one quest any day that they log in.
In the NMS and APOC Daily Reward structure, it would be like saying, "OMG! I'm a day behind getting that emote that Dygz got yesterday, and if don't catch up today, he will get that potted plant before I do! No fair! Dygz got that Warrior Princess skin a day earlier than I did because I couldn't play yesterday."
There is no need to catch up. The concept of "catching up" is not even a thing because the rewards are just bonuses and there is no competition.
This is a non-issue in these games. But, there are games where this is an issue.
In Wiz101, Day 4 Reward is 20 Crowns, Day 9 is 30 Crowns, Day 14 is 50 Crowns. Day 15 is a housing decoration. If I'm on Day 14, it doesn't matter how many days I skip doing the Daily, I will be on Day 14 until I choose to do that Daily. The rewards calendar will reset to Day 1 after I complete Day 15 for that character...whenever that is. Which is great. Skipping a day or a week or a month doesn't penalize me. I just pick up wherever I left off. If I do 30 days of Dailies on one character in Wiz101, I will be rewarded with 200 Crowns or 600 Crowns in 3 months. In APOC, I can earn about 900 Embers in 3 months. Seems reasonable.
In NWO, if I can't login for Day 9/30 Crowns, I get reset to Day 1. If I can't login for Day 14/50 Crowns, I get reset to Day 1. That design is horrible. Players don't want that design. The Ashes devs are avoiding that design. The Ashes model will be better than the NWO model...according to what Steven has said about the reward structure for these types of quests.
Right.
Dailies should be fine if the rewards are cosmetics, emotes, housing decorations and/or Embers... and if we aren't penalized for missing a day by being reset to the beginning reward cycle.
Through APOC, the Ashes devs have already provided us with a great model for Dailies.
Now, with your kids game example, if you and I are both on day 14, and you decide to take your significant other out for dinner, but I don't, then the next day you are still on day 14 and I am on day 15.
Unless I skip a day, you will never catch that up.
That is why this system is just as bad as any other daily system - unless small changes are made.
Those changes could be as simple as making the reward structure last for 25 days, and then restarting it at the start of every month. I'm not a big fan of this method, as this kind of reward structure always has the best rewards at the end, and if you reset it before people have the chance to finish, they lose the progress they have made thus far - even if this system does give players between 3 and 6 built in redundant days to get to their 25.
The other way this system could be improved is by making the quests required to advance one day on the reward structure able to be completed 7 times in 7 days, rather than 1 time in 1 day.
This would mean that while we are both on day 14 now, and you take your significant other out for dinner, when you come in tomorrow and I am on day 15 and complete one more to get to 16, you are simply able to do two days worth and then we are both on day 16, even though you took a day away from the game.
An example of an NMS Daily is "Go to xx planet (in this nearby star system) and take a picture of a monolith)."
An example of an APOC Daily is "Open 3 treasure chests."
An example of a Wiz101 Daily is "Go to Colossus Blvd. and kill 1 Cyclops" (That's a Level 7 mob and I am Level 50.)
This is great for an MMORPG, which is supposed to have a masses of players running around in the world.
In APOC, if there is a quest to open 20 chests, it's likely going to take me 3+ matches to complete... 45+ minutes. I'm going to wait until I have a day with 45 minutes to devote to that. If I only have 15 minutes to play, I'm not going to login just to partially complete that quest.
If I only have 15 minutes and there is a Daily to open 3 chests, I will login for one 15 minute match. Because I can complete a quest and get a reward.
The reward for the Open 3 Chests quest rewards 2K xp.
The reward for the Open 20 Chests quest rewards 6.5K xp.
If I could do the Open 3 Chests quest multiple times, that would mean I get 8K xp for only opening 12 chests.
Which is why Dailies have a limit of once or twice per day.
Just because you assume there is material advantage does not mean your assumption is correct.
Dailies don't have to be designed with a material advantage and this thread is to discuss designs that we would want and that we don't want.
I would not want a design like the one in GW2, which provides some advantage.
I would be fine with a design like the ones in Wiz101, NMS and APOC, which don't provide an advantage and also don't make you feel penalized for skipping days.
I don't know why you are obsessed with the concept of catching up. "Catching up" is not a concern with the Wiz101, NMS and APOC Daily designs. It's like complaining that you can't pick your nose with your elbow.
No one is going to be concerned about that. It's not a thing people are going to be trying to do.
Your Wiz101 example is flawed.
I assume what you mean is that on Monday we were both on Day 13 and completed the Daily.
There is no way for me to know what Day you are on. You could be on Day 4 for all I know. But, lets assume I happen to know you were also on Day 13. I dunno why I should care, but let's assume I know.
Tuesday I take my SO out for dinner while you complete the Daily. So, you get 50 crowns/embers one day before I do. Big whoop. What advantage does that give you? None.
Wednesday, I will be on Day 14. You will be on Day 15. If we both complete the Daily, I will get 50 crowns/embers and you will get a housing decoration. I'm not decorating my house, so really, that reward is just trash to me. Wednesday, my character has essentially "caught up" to yours. But, I don't know why that matters. I don't care how many crowns/embers you have because that has no affect on my gameplay. I especially don't care that you got some random housing decoration and I didn't.
There would be no reason for me to be in competition with you regarding Daily rewards, but if I really wanted to make sure I got 50 crowns on Tuesday, I have some options.
1: The Daily changes at 9PM, so going out to dinner probably would not prevent me from finding 10-20 minutes to do the Daily. I could probably finish the Daily while my SO is getting dressed. Or get up at 3AM, finish the Daily and be back in bed by 3:20AM.
2: Let's assume that in addition to dinner, I had work and class and homework to finish, so I really just did not have 10-20 minutes to spare on gaming within the 24 hour period. I could just cycle through my alts and get 100+ Crowns on Day14 instead of 50 Crowns. If you only had one character, I would be ahead of you with regard to Crowns rewards. But why would I care how many characters you have? It doesn't matter one bit.
I'm probably not going to spend Day 15 getting 6 housing decorations because those are trash to me. I couldn't care less how many housing decorations you have or even how many Crowns or Embers you have.
In Wiz101, the Daily Reward structure has a 15 day calendar. It resets whenever your character gets the 15th reward. Doesn't matter whether it takes a player 15 days or 2 weeks or 2 months to do 15 Dailies. Real world month does not effect anything. No reason to have anything reset at the start of the month - it's meaningless.
The "best rewards" are at the end, I suppose, but you can take however long you want to get to Day 15.
It's not possible to reset before players finish. And it's not possible to lose progress. Whenever a character gets the Day 15 reward, that character's calendar resets.
In NWO, yes, you can lose progress. Sounds like this is also true for GW2.
In Wiz101, NMS and APOC, it is not possible to lose progress by skipping days.
In Wiz101, NMS and APOC there really is no reason to want to do 7 Dailies in one day.
Being able to complete 7 Dailies in one day defeats the purpose of having Dailies - which is to encourage players to log in even on days when they only have 10-20 minutes to play.
Nobody cares what Day some other player's character is on!!! That is not a thing!!!
This thread is based on the idea that dailies will exist and that people will want to do them. In order for people to want to do them, there would have to be material advantage to doing them, so that assumption is safe.
Should we get word from Intrepid that what ever system they put in place offers no material advantage, we can have another discussion about dailies at that point (I won't take part), but for now, the assumption is material advantage because it is the only way the discussion continues in any form. It isn't about what day the other character is on, it is about the fact that if you take your significant other (significant enough to not be reduced to a two letter acronym) out for dinner, then I am one day ahead of you. It is about the fact that you missed out on a days worth of rewards that you can't get back in any way.
In a children's game, that system probably works well. Children look at where they are at, that is all they see, that is all they care about. Adults though, we know that if we miss a day, we miss a small amount of material gain that we can't ever get back (because we are assuming a small amount of material gain).
Remember, at it's core, Ashes is a game where you are competing directly with almost all other players on the server. Missing out on material gain that your competitors are not missing out on is actually a big deal.
Likewise, missing out on taking your significant other out for dinner is an even bigger deal.
A system where you can have both is inherently better than a system where you can't, and you have STILL failed to explain why a system like I have suggested in any way diminishes what you claim to be the biggest advantage to a daily quest system in that it allows people a short thing to do if they log on and only have a few minutes (a notion - I remind you - which I disagree with entirely as players should be able to find something rewarding to do themselves, yet I'm allowing you to hold on to because without that one notion, there is no reason for daily quests to exist at all, and thus literally no discussion to have).
I sincerely recommend not responding to him. His entire premise boils down to “I want bonus rewards without having to make any decisions for myself and I want them for doing basically nothing” as if there won’t be plenty to do and plenty of rewards to earn by default from the basic organic quests that will pop up constantly.
He’s just indecisive and overly entitled, the best way to let this fall into the void is to ignore it.