desoquaddubMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No the Node Quests will pretty much be our Dailies n Weekly quests
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Um. You said it's FAR better. Now you wanna say it's just similar.
Similar is not the same thing as FAR better.
Striking similarities is not the same thing as FAR better.
Before attacking an argument that is similar to your own, perhaps YOU should understand said argument.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you read the suggestion I made for a better way to implement a similar concept, you would notice striking similarities to what you have talked about in Wizard 101.
It isn't the same, as the system in that game still has glaring issues. However, it is similar.
Perhaps before attacking an argument, you should understand said argument.
Um. You said it's FAR better. Now you wanna say it's just similar.
Similar is not the same thing as FAR better.
Striking similarities is not the same thing as FAR better.
Before attacking an argument that is similar to your own, perhaps YOU should understand said argument.
The first is making weekly quests rather than daily. Rather than allowing players to do a given quest once, and then resetting that at midnight, allow them to do it 5 times and reset it with the weekly server maintenance. This allows players to do their weeks worth of daily quests at a time that best suits them. This almost totally clears up the issue with having to log in every day or being punished for it.
The other mechanic is to make all daily tasks gated with a token. It may be an exploration task, a PvP task, PvE task, a gathering task, a crafting task, a dungeon crawl task, a node specific task, what ever.
But, that doesn't sound similar to the Wiz101 system. Also doesn't seem far better than the Wiz101 system.
I expect Ashes to have Weeklies as well as Dailies.
It seems to me that there are only two perspectives from a players point of view on wanting daily quests in games.
Either they want to be given a range of easy tasks to do each day so that they don't need to think about what to do, or they want to get free shit for various tasks that they would likely do anyway.
Neither are overly good arguments from a developer point of view - if a task they have added to the game isn't enjoyable enough and doesn't reward enough for players to want to do that task without the addition of a daily quest for it, then that task needs to be re-evaluated.
How things seem to you rarely conforms with reality.
Of course there are more than those two reasons for players to enjoy Dailies.
I like having an option for an easy thing to do each day so that I have the option to jump in and get a tangible reward for completing something in 10-20 minutes and jump back out. Because I don't always have 30+ minutes to complete a quest everyday. That's not about not wanting to think about what to do - that's about not wanting to waste a very limited amount of time.
This weekend, I played Fractured. The players I ended up hunting with were focused on killing Greater Earth Elementals in order to gain the Earthquake ability. So, I left where I was soloing Treants and traveled 20-30 minutes to join them. We spent a couple hours hunting Woodland Wisps and Saplings and Earth Elementals and Greater Earth Elementals. Then we took a break to watch and participate in a Twitch AMA with the lead designer, fought a few bosses that the LD ported over to us and then we all logged out.
Just now I jumped in to see what I could accomplish in 20 minutes. Most of the mobs in this area, I already have capped at 100%: Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps. Earth Elementals will take me about 10 minutes to defeat solo. But, I already have those capped as well. Greater Earth Elementals are at 50%, but I can't solo those.
It's going to take me at least 20 minutes to run back over to where I can solo Treants, which are at 40% completion. So, that would mean I spend the time I have today to run over there. I spend the 20 minutes I have tomorrow to get Treants up to 50-60%. If I want to meet my pals Thu or Fri to get Greater Earth Elementals up to 100%, they have to wait 20 minutes for me to run back over to where those are.
So, I would rather just stay near the Greater Earth Elementals are.
There's no point in me hunting Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals because they're already capped at 100% - no more xp gained for killing those mobs. So, it's really not worth it for me to log in until Thu or Fri.
If there were a Daily to kill 1 Earth Elemental that would make it worthwhile to log in for 10 minutes. Likely there would be some rudimentary story attached (in Wiz101 we're taking gavimetric readings) and there would be some small reward. At this point, I'd be happy to just get some cloth shoes as a reward. Something.
And the Kill 1 Earth Elemental doesn't have to be offered every day. If the Monday Daily was Kill 1 Treant, it might feel worth it to run 20 minutes to the Treant hunting grounds. The Goblin village is about 30 minutes away, so if the Monday Daily were Kill 1 Goblin Gladiator and I only have 10-20 minutes to play, I'm not going to run over there - I'd skip that Daily. If the Tuesday Daily were Kill 1 Goblin Gladiator, and the Treant hunting grounds were midway, I might do the Monday Daily and the Tuesday Daily...or might still skip the Tuesday Daily if I think 30 minutes is farther than I want to travel to meet the Earthquake seekers on Thursday.
It's all cost/benefit analysis, where time is the major consideration.
And, yeah, I like the Dailies in Apoc, but I typically strive to complete the Weeklies I want to complete in one day/game session, during a day when I have the time to attempt that. Saving up tokens seems unnecessary, but could be OK if that's the route devs chose to take.
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desoquaddubMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Dygz i was confused for a while thanks for adding the quotes
Dailies are a symptom of low attention spans that demand instant gratification for little-to-no effort
You can easily do something meaningful with ten to twenty minutes, what you’re asking for is to have rewards thrown at you for basically nothing.
That is just an unsubstantiated assertion and assumption.
Meaningful is subjective - sure.
Meaningful is going to be defined by the impact on the player and the impact on the world.
Effort and whether or not a task can easily be accomplished in ten to twenty minutes depends on what the task is, how good the individual player is at the task and how long it takes the player to travel to and from the task/quest location.
I don't think I've asked for anything.
Rather, I have stated that the purpose of Dailies is to give players something to do that can typically be accomplished in a matter of 10-20 minutes. You yourself have just stated that something meaningful can be accomplished in that span of time, so... we seem to be in agreement there.
Easy enough for the Ashes devs to make individually trivial tasks accrue to have a meaningful impact on a node, a region, a religion or a social org, etc.
Likewise, Daily Rewards can be trivial individually - as they are in Apoc and in Wiz101- but, they accrue into something meaningful over time.
You’re asking for quick bursts of rewards for 15 minutes of effort. That’s the definition of seeking instant gratification with minimal effort.
Ashes has dailies because they are meant to push you into doing different activities so they can get testing feedback. They’re not meant to make the game more immersive, or more rewarding in general.
When I say meaningful I’m talking about making progress toward a goal. You can craft armor, vote on an issue or for a mayor, you can set up a caravan, you can take part in a story quest for a religious or social or scientific organization. Those things give progress toward whatever other major goals you have, but they do not and should not give you random unrelated rewards like exp or buffs unless they are directly related and in proportion to the amount of time spent.
People are rightly against dailies, they’re a sign of a shallow game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
I'm not asking for quick bursts of rewards for 15 minutes of effort. It's not like the devs have said "Ashes won't have Dailies" and I've asked the devs to add Dailies.
The OP asks if we want Dailies - why or why not? I've responded that it depends on how the Dailies are implemented. If Ashes Dailies are implemented like Wiz101 or Apoc, it's fine with me. Great for casual gameplay on days when people only have casual time to play. If they are implemented like NWO - that would be awful. We know that the devs don't Ashes Dailies to be like NWO. And we can expect to be like Apoc Dailies in terms of not feeling obligatory to complete. I've discussed what kinds of Dailies I find acceptable and what kinds of Dailies I don't find acceptable.
Ashes has dailies because they are meant to push you into doing different activities so they can get testing feedback. They’re not meant to make the game more immersive, or more rewarding in general.
I think you mean Apoc in the quote above; not Ashes.
Apoc has Dailies so that we have a variety of activities to do while testing, besides just combat. They also provide incentives for PvE players who don't enjoy PvP combat to participate in the testing. And the Dailies are meant to make the testing more rewarding in general, especially on days when we only have time for a match or two, rather than hours to play.
When I say meaningful I’m talking about making progress toward a goal. You can craft armor, vote on an issue or for a mayor, you can set up a caravan, you can take part in a story quest for a religious or social or scientific organization. Those things give progress toward whatever other major goals you have, but they do not and should not give you random unrelated rewards like exp or buffs unless they are directly related and in proportion to the amount of time spent.
I dunno why you're using the word random. Also, not sure what you mean by unrelated rewards like xp. I expect to get xp for crafting, participating in caravan raids, taking part in curated stories related to religions and social organizations. Buffs , to me, are not a good reward for Dailies since I consider Dailies to be primarily about providing opportunities for casual players who only have 10-20 minutes to play. Buff is unlikely to help with that.
In my Fractured example, buff as a reward would be pointless.
People are rightly against dailies, they’re a sign of a shallow game.
MMORPGs have diverse playstyles. Some people in this thread are OK with Dailies - others are not.
There is no right or wrong perspective. Everyone, including the devs, seems to agree that Dailies should not be designed to be obligatory, as they are in NWO - as in, making players feel that they're missing out if they skip a day because they are sent back to Day 1 on a calendar of rewards with increasing value.
Shallow game is subjective.
Meaningful is subjective.
Ashes Dailies will almost inherently be meaningful because the results of having multiple players participating in Dailies will have a significant impact on the world - rather than just affecting the individual player.
In Ashes, if I kill 1 Earth Elemental near my town, that has insignificant impact on the world. But, if a bunch of people in town kill 1 Earth Elemental nearby, that's likely to have a lasting impact on the Earth Elemental population. And, it might even mean that people have a few minutes left over to kill several Greater Earth Elementals.
It seems to me that there are only two perspectives from a players point of view on wanting daily quests in games.
Either they want to be given a range of easy tasks to do each day so that they don't need to think about what to do, or they want to get free shit for various tasks that they would likely do anyway.
How things seem to you rarely conforms with reality.
Of course there are more than those two reasons for players to enjoy Dailies.
I like having an option for an easy thing to do each day so that I have the option to jump in and get a tangible reward for completing something in 10-20 minutes and jump back out. Because I don't always have 30+ minutes to complete a quest everyday. That's not about not wanting to think about what to do - that's about not wanting to waste a very limited amount of time.
Unless you are going to try and suggest to me that without daily quests, there is nothing at all that can be done in an MMO in 20 minutes, then you fit exactly and perfectly in to the first group of people I talked about above - you like daily quests because they give you something to do without having to think about it.
I know you claimed at the end that this isn't the reason, but just because you said it isn't - without qualifying that statement - doesn't mean it's true.
I'm not asking for quick bursts of rewards for 15 minutes of effort. It's not like the devs have said "Ashes won't have Dailies" and I've asked the devs to add Dailies.
The OP asks if we want Dailies - why or why not? I've responded that it depends on how the Dailies are implemented. If Ashes Dailies are implemented like Wiz101 or Apoc, it's fine with me. Great for casual gameplay on days when people only have casual time to play. If they are implemented like NWO - that would be awful. We know that the devs don't Ashes Dailies to be like NWO. And we can expect to be like Apoc Dailies in terms of not feeling obligatory to complete. I've discussed what kinds of Dailies I find acceptable and what kinds of Dailies I don't find acceptable.
Ashes has dailies because they are meant to push you into doing different activities so they can get testing feedback. They’re not meant to make the game more immersive, or more rewarding in general.
I think you mean Apoc in the quote above; not Ashes.
Apoc has Dailies so that we have a variety of activities to do while testing, besides just combat. They also provide incentives for PvE players who don't enjoy PvP combat to participate in the testing. And the Dailies are meant to make the testing more rewarding in general, especially on days when we only have time for a match or two, rather than hours to play.
When I say meaningful I’m talking about making progress toward a goal. You can craft armor, vote on an issue or for a mayor, you can set up a caravan, you can take part in a story quest for a religious or social or scientific organization. Those things give progress toward whatever other major goals you have, but they do not and should not give you random unrelated rewards like exp or buffs unless they are directly related and in proportion to the amount of time spent.
I dunno why you're using the word random. Also, not sure what you mean by unrelated rewards like xp. I expect to get xp for crafting, participating in caravan raids, taking part in curated stories related to religions and social organizations. Buffs , to me, are not a good reward for Dailies since I consider Dailies to be primarily about providing opportunities for casual players who only have 10-20 minutes to play. Buff is unlikely to help with that.
In my Fractured example, buff as a reward would be pointless.
People are rightly against dailies, they’re a sign of a shallow game.
MMORPGs have diverse playstyles. Some people in this thread are OK with Dailies - others are not.
There is no right or wrong perspective. Everyone, including the devs, seems to agree that Dailies should not be designed to be obligatory, as they are in NWO - as in, making players feel that they're missing out if they skip a day because they are sent back to Day 1 on a calendar of rewards with increasing value.
Shallow game is subjective.
Meaningful is subjective.
Ashes Dailies will almost inherently be meaningful because the results of having multiple players participating in Dailies will have a significant impact on the world - rather than just affecting the individual player.
In Ashes, if I kill 1 Earth Elemental near my town, that has insignificant impact on the world. But, if a bunch of people in town kill 1 Earth Elemental nearby, that's likely to have a lasting impact on the Earth Elemental population. And, it might even mean that people have a few minutes left over to kill several Greater Earth Elementals.
Yes I meant APOC, but no I think you’re wrong in claiming those APOC dailies are to give players “other things to do”, they’re to give significant incentive to test features.
Open 3 chests: check if our RNG loot generation has properly weighted odds
Destroy 10 walls: Test the effectiveness and performance impact of destruction mechanics we’re still fine tuning
Kill 3 players: engage in general combat testing
These aren’t tasks with the purpose of adding “spice” to APOC.
And the devs HAVE said there won’t be traditional dailies in Ashes. We will get organically generated quests that change often, aren’t consistent between nodes or time of the week, and won’t be auto given. You’ll have to pick them up like any other quest, they won’t have such good rewards anyone will feel obligated.
In your example, it would appear because players haven’t killed any local earth elementals lately and they’ve grown out of hand, for a week an npc in the area gives out rewards for slaying earth elementals, until the population drops to more acceptable levels. That’s not a daily, that’s a spontaneous quest that appears only so long as the conditions demand. Casual players honestly shouldn’t be keeping up with dedicated players to any significant degree, said as someone with a full time job who won’t be keeping up with a high school kid
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Unless you are going to try and suggest to me that without daily quests, there is nothing at all that can be done in an MMO in 20 minutes, then you fit exactly and perfectly in to the first group of people I talked about above - you like daily quests because they give you something to do without having to think about it.
I know you claimed at the end that this isn't the reason, but just because you said it isn't - without qualifying that statement - doesn't mean it's true.
I've repeatedly qualified that statement. Reading comprehension apparently is not your friend.
In my Fractured example, I stated that there is plenty I can do in 20 minutes. I can kill Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals, I just won't get any rewards whatsoever for doing so - not even xp.
I can take 20 minutes to travel to the Treant hunting grounds today, log out and then wait for my 20 minute game session tomorrow to hunt Treants, which will give me xp. But, then I would have to spend 20+ minutes running back to the Greater Earth Elementals hunting grounds Thursday and Friday. I'm not willing to waste 40 minutes running through already explored areas for no reward; it's not worth the time and effort to do so without some tangible reward. I'd rather spend those 40 minutes playing Life Beyond.
I always think about whether or not I want to do a Daily based on how it's going to affect my game session plans. I never do Dailies without a significant amount of consideration.
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desoquaddubMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Unless you are going to try and suggest to me that without daily quests, there is nothing at all that can be done in an MMO in 20 minutes, then you fit exactly and perfectly in to the first group of people I talked about above - you like daily quests because they give you something to do without having to think about it.
I know you claimed at the end that this isn't the reason, but just because you said it isn't - without qualifying that statement - doesn't mean it's true.
I've repeatedly qualified that statement. Reading comprehension apparently is not your friend.
In my Fractured example, I stated that there is plenty I can do in 20 minutes. I can kill Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals, I just won't get any rewards whatsoever for doing so - not even xp.
I can take 20 minutes to travel to the Treant hunting grounds today, log out and then wait for my 20 minute game session tomorrow to hunt Treants, which will give me xp. But, then I would have to spend 20+ minutes running back to the Greater Earth Elementals hunting grounds Thursday and Friday. I'm not willing to waste 40 minutes running through already explored areas for no reward; it's not worth the time and effort to do so without some tangible reward. I'd rather spend those 40 minutes playing Life Beyond.
I always think about whether or not I want to do a Daily based on how it's going to affect my game session plans. I never do Dailies without a significant amount of consideration.
you best believe im running back to the daily everyday might stumble upon a hidden cave
In my Fractured example, I stated that there is plenty I can do in 20 minutes. I can kill Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals, I just won't get any rewards whatsoever for doing so - not even xp.
So now you are in the other group, wanting shit for nothing.
This is my point.
Either, you want shit for nothing and so daily quests, or you don't want to think of a rewarding activity to do for 20 minutes and so daily quests.
Neither are a good reason.
If you can not think of something rewarding to do in 20 minutes of game time in an MMO, you're playing the wrong genre.
I mean, sure, MMO's are known for content pieces that take hours, but they also have content pieces that take seconds. Crafting is a fantastic example of this.
In terms of Ashes, maybe you want to help your node get stronger - go out and kill stuff. You get xp, your node gets xp, and you can spend as little or as much time on it as you want.
If not, there absolutely will be some form of commercial or industrial activity you can participate in that will net you rewards.
In an MMO, wanting daily quests comes down to either you can't think what to do for yourself, and/or you want free shit. There is no other reason to want daily quests, as every reason possible to want them fits in to those two reasons.
Being a mix of both reasons, as you seem to be, isn't any better than being exclusively one or the other. In order to even start to put up a debate against that argument, you need to being with outlining why it is you can't do the task the daily quest would have you do, even if that daily quest didn't exist.
Everything you have said about Fractured just tells me they use daily quests to cover up bad game systems (or use bad game systems to justify daily quests). Neither of these are applicable to this game unless you want to suggest that Ashes also offer no xp for killing suitable encounters. As long as Ashes offers a reward for killing encounters, the reward structure of games that do not are not applicable here.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Open 3 chests: check if our RNG loot generation has properly weighted odds
Destroy 10 walls: Test the effectiveness and performance impact of destruction mechanics we’re still fine tuning
Kill 3 players: engage in general combat testing.
Then we agree that Dailies can be meaningful. Especially when the results of multiple players activities are accrued.
And the devs HAVE said there won’t be traditional dailies in Ashes. We will get organically generated quests that change often, aren’t consistent between nodes or time of the week, and won’t be auto given. You’ll have to pick them up like any other quest, they won’t have such good rewards anyone will feel obligated.
Which is what i have been saying along. Though, I don't recall a quote from the devs that says there won't be any Dailies consistent with time of the week.
All the rest, I covered in various posts on the first page.
In your example, it would appear because players haven’t killed any local earth elementals lately and they’ve grown out of hand, for a week an npc in the area gives out rewards for slaying earth elementals, until the population drops to more acceptable levels.
That is not my example at all.
That's an example you've concocted. Doesn't even sound like the Ashes mechanics we've heard about.
That’s not a daily, that’s a spontaneous quest that appears only so long as the conditions demand. Casual players honestly shouldn’t be keeping up with dedicated players to any significant degree, said as someone with a full time job who won’t be keeping up with a high school kid
Please post a quote where I spoke about "a spontaneous quest that appears only so long as the conditions demand." I didn't even have that as a concept until you just mentioned it.
Also, please show me a post where I said anything about casual players keeping up with "dedicated" players. I have never even held that thought at all, let alone written anything like that. You are arguing with yourself.
Also, please show me a post where I said anything about casual players keeping up with "dedicated" players. I have never even held that thought at all, let alone written anything like that. You are arguing with yourself.
All of your posts include “give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort” and you repeatedly claim that the natural rewards aren’t what you want for that minimal effort.
Your referenced games have crap game design, to put it simply. The presence of dailies in those systems stems directly from their crappy design.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
Yep. Give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort. You seem to be jumping to the assumption -for whatever bizarre reason- that I think those rewards should be equal to or better than rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes. Again, you are arguing with yourself rather than against anything I've actually stated.
Crappy design is subjective.
The Ashes devs indicate that the MMORPG will have Dailies. I previously posted the dev quote on Page 3, but here it is again:
Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?" A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."
Yep. Give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort. You seem to be jumping to the assumption -for whatever bizarre reason- that I think those rewards should be equal to or better than rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes. Again, you are arguing with yourself rather than against anything I've actually stated.
Crappy design is subjective.
The Ashes devs indicate that the MMORPG will have Dailies. I previously posted the dev quote on Page 3, but here it is again:
Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?" A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."
What you've conveniently failed to answer is why the rewards from that 20 minute piece of content that the daily quest is asking you to do is not sufficient in itself.
I'm still trying to break down exactly what it is you seem to want from a daily quest.
If the quest takes 20 minutes, and you don't think it should reward more than a 30 minute piece of content, that means you think the reward for the daily quest should be equal to no more than 9 minutes worth of content. If you add this reward to the reward you would naturally expect from a 20 minute piece of content, any more of a reward and you now have the same or better reward than a 30 minute piece of content.
So the question remains, why not just do the 20 minute piece of content? Why do you need the daily quest? Is it not perfectly fair that you get 20 minutes worth of reward for 20 minutes worth of content?
Yep. Give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort. You seem to be jumping to the assumption -for whatever bizarre reason- that I think those rewards should be equal to or better than rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes. Again, you are arguing with yourself rather than against anything I've actually stated.
Crappy design is subjective.
The Ashes devs indicate that the MMORPG will have Dailies. I previously posted the dev quote on Page 3, but here it is again:
Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?" A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."
Yes and I’ve already replied to that, because literally in that quote tells you exactly what you need to know about the minor quests we’ll see in Ashes. They will be reactive to the world state. Quests will appear dependent on conditions of the local area. They will not be random tasks that appear simply to give rewards to players that have no idea what to do with themselves.
Quests that can be done in small amounts of time will exist, they will give rewards proportional to small amounts of time. They won’t give you extras that make that 20 minutes of effort equal 40 minutes of reward.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What you've conveniently failed to answer is why the rewards from that 20 minute piece of content that the daily quest is asking you to do is not sufficient in itself.
10-20 minutes. Rewards for 10-20 minute quests might be sufficient. Which is why I keep referencing the Apoc Dailies.
I'm not sure the devs would be able to keep up with hardcore time/casual challenge players steamrolling through hours of 10 minute quests. Seems unsustainable. Which is why 10-20 minute quests will likely be limited to once per day. If I only had 10-20 minutes to play on any given day - that one 10-20 minute quest and quest reward might very well be sufficient.
I'm still trying to break down exactly what it is you seem to want from a daily quest.
If the quest takes 20 minutes, and you don't think it should reward more than a 30 minute piece of content, that means you think the reward for the daily quest should be equal to no more than 9 minutes worth of content.
I think that means the content should be equal to no more than 20 minutes of content.
Should be easy to breakdown since I keep using Apoc as an example of what I expect the MMORPG Dailies to be like.
If you add this reward to the reward you would naturally expect from a 20 minute piece of content, any more of a reward and you now have the same or better reward than a 30 minute piece of content.
Here, you are talking about content. Content is not intrinsically tied to quests.
Quests typically provide additional rewards on top of the rewards associated with completing content - extra xp, extra gear, etc.
So, yes, I expect Daily Quests to provide rewards on top of what one would naturally expect from completing a 20 minute piece of content because that is how quests work. I do not expect a 10 minute Daily Quest or a 20 minute Daily Quest to reward more than a 30+ minute regular quest.
Key factor of Daily Quests is the understanding that most people do not have 2+ hours to play every day - thus a core component of Daily Quests is that they are quick and easy to find, obtain and complete compared to regular quests. They need to be obtainable and completable in less than 30 minutes... preferably in less than 20 minutes.
10-20 minute quests are not common in MMORPGs - especially not at higher levels or max levels. Daily Quests are commonly 10-20-30 minutes in length. So that people can complete a quest every day, even on days when they have less than 30 minutes to play.
Daily Rewards tend to be different than regular quest rewards. For instance, in Wiz101, the rewards are frequently crowns (embers) or PvP Arena tickets or gold, rather than xp and gear/items which are the rewads for regular quests.
But, in Apoc the Daily Rewards are just a lesser form of the Weekly Rewards - which fine. But, Adventurer xp as the only Daily Reward won't be sufficient in the MMORPG once people hit max Adventurer Level. Same for gear.
So, most likely Daily Rewards in the MMORPG will also include additional forms of rewards, like embers. Doesn't have to be xp plus embers. Fine if Daily rewards are just embers. But the devs would probably want to limit such rewards to once or twice per day, rather than be available for hardcore time players to focus on for many hours.
Earning a total of 100 embers per month for doing Dailies, interspersed with other types of rewards, like xx monster coins, skins and emotes -similar to the Apoc cosmetic rewards- seems sufficient to me.
Could even be something like "cosmetic tokens" I can spend at a shop to purchase the set of cosmetic gear I like.
So the question remains, why not just do the 20 minute piece of content? Why do you need the daily quest? Is it not perfectly fair that you get 20 minutes worth of reward for 20 minutes worth of content?
Even 20 minute quests are difficult to find in MMORPGs - unless they are Dailies.
How do you propose we determine where to find a 20 minute quest on any given day unless there is some equivalent of a Daily Quest Giver?
"20 minute piece of content" does not inherently mean there will be any tangible reward for 20 minutes of gameplay. "20 minute piece of content" could entail running from one village to another and then having to wait for another game session before I can start "grinding" whatever the crux of the quest is.
Again, I refer to my Fractured example:
My options for 20 minutes of content today could be running from the Earth Elemental hunting grounds over to the Treant hunting grounds, then it would be time to log out. I could stay where I am and kill two Earth Elementals, but I would no longer get xp for that and I would not learn any new skills.
Just because there is content that can be done in 20 minutes does not mean that content is attached to a quest that can be completed in 20 minutes nor does it mean the content comes with a tangible reward.
20 minutes really is not a lot of time if when it includes searching for a casual time quest. Probably have to spend at least a 5 minutes finding the quest. Then at least 5 minutes traveling to the location. Then 5 minutes completing the task. Then 5 minutes returning to the Quest Giver.
In Wiz101, it takes less than 5 minutes to travel to the Daily Quest Giver. I can fast travel to the Daily Quest Giver in 2 minutes or less. It will probably take 5-15 minutes to travel to the quest location, depending on the Daily. 5 minutes or less to actually do the task. And the crowns, gold or PvP tickets are instantly rewarded without needing to travel back to the Daily Quest Giver.
In Wiz101, the Dailies are all a mini-repeat of quests that have already been completed so, I would no longer be getting quest rewards for completing those tasks if not for the Dailies. The Wiz101 Daily Rewards tend to be things like crowns (embers) or PvP tickets, which are not rewards for regular quests.
What I want from the Ashes MMORPG Dailies is pretty much the same thing I get from the Apoc Dailies: Easy access to quest options that can be completed in 10-20 minutes. And rewards commensurate with the task and/or time.
"20 minute piece of content" does not inherently mean there will be any tangible reward for 20 minutes of gameplay.
If developers design a game where a 20 minute piece of content may not have any reward, why would they then add in daily quests to give that specific piece of content a reward?
Does it not just make more sense to tie the reward to the content?
10-20 minute quests are not common in MMORPGs - especially not at higher levels or max levels.
Almost all aspects of crafting can be broken down in to pieces of content that last seconds. If you are an avid crafter, there will always be something you can craft.
I would wager the housing system will contain many small tasks that need to be completed, ticking off a few of them when you only have a few minutes to play sounds like a really good idea to me.
Most solo combat encounters take seconds, in 20 minutes you could probably manage to go out and kill 25+ level appropriate mobs in order to assist your node in leveling up (and yourself in leveling up too!).
Most longer quests can be looked at as being many small tasks lined up from end to end, there is likely to be a longer quest or quest chain you would like to complete, and either ticking off the next objective or positioning yourself to better tick that objective off next time you log in seems like a really good use of play time.
The above is just off the top of my head, I wasn't even going to bother with it as I thought it was all obvious stuff, but I decided to edit it in anyway.
Now, you may well try and say "but I want a tangible reward" for my 20 minutes - and if you do that means you are just after something for free.
You may also say "but then I have to decide which of the many choices placed in front of me I should do", in which case you want the game to think for you.
Honestly, that is all there is to it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Are you suggesting that a 20 minute piece of content + daily quest completion should reward players more than a 30 minute piece of content?
Possibly... probably.
Content is not inherently tied to a tangible reward.
Quests are inherently tied to a tangible reward.
A 20 minute Daily Quest reward should not be of greater value than a 30 minute quest reward.
In fact, a Daily quest reward should probably be of a lower caliber altogether than a regular quest reward.
Hence, why I gave examples like embers, monster tokens, emotes or even cosmetic tokens for Daily Quests, while I would expect xp, gold and actual gear (rather than skins) for regular quests.
"20 minute piece of content" does not inherently mean there will be any tangible reward for 20 minutes of gameplay.
If developers design a game where a 20 minute piece of content may not have any reward, why would they then add in daily quests to give that specific piece of content a reward?
Does it not just make more sense to tie the reward to the content?
No. Again, content could be anything: Stomping on snakes in WoW is content. There are no tangible rewards for doing so. Killing grey mobs in WoW or EQ is content. There's no xp and IIRC no loot from that.
As I've already stated several times, in Fractured I can kill Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals for hours and hours and hours - but I won't get any xp for it because I've already reached the max xp in each of those categories. They still count as content, but there are no longer any rewards whatsoever for killing them.
Content does not intrinsically come with tangible rewards... especially at max Adventurer level.
Attaching rewards to "content" typically results in abysmally slow grinding. Which is why rewards associated with quests are almost always significantly more substantive than whatever rewards might be tied to content... when rewards are tied to content.
"A 20 minute piece of content" is a nebulous concept - in most MMORPGs, I'm not even sure what that could be other than a quest or a dungeon. And the vast majority of quests and dungeons that are not newbies or Dailies are designed for 30+ minutes.
There are multiple types of content I might complete in 20 minutes in an MMORPG - there aren't necessarily any tangible rewards tied to those activities, though.
No. Again, content could be anything: Stomping on snakes in WoW is content. There are no tangible rewards for doing so. Killing grey mobs in WoW or EQ is content. There's no xp and IIRC no loot from that.
As I've already stated several times, in Fractured
Are you saying you are unable to find rewarding content without daily quests?
Because if you are, that sounds like a "you" problem.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes and I’ve already replied to that, because literally in that quote tells you exactly what you need to know about the minor quests we’ll see in Ashes. They will be reactive to the world state. Quests will appear dependent on conditions of the local area. They will not be random tasks that appear simply to give rewards to players that have no idea what to do with themselves.
Quests that can be done in small amounts of time will exist, they will give rewards proportional to small amounts of time. They won’t give you extras that make that 20 minutes of effort equal 40 minutes of reward.
So then... we agree. Why have you been arguing with what I've said as if you disagree with me?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes and I’ve already replied to that, because literally in that quote tells you exactly what you need to know about the minor quests we’ll see in Ashes. They will be reactive to the world state. Quests will appear dependent on conditions of the local area. They will not be random tasks that appear simply to give rewards to players that have no idea what to do with themselves.
Quests that can be done in small amounts of time will exist, they will give rewards proportional to small amounts of time. They won’t give you extras that make that 20 minutes of effort equal 40 minutes of reward.
So then... we agree. Why have you been arguing with what I've said as if you disagree with me?
If all you’re asking for is minor quests to exist, then you shouldn’t be asking for “dailies”. Dailies have a particular design and reward structure that signals bad baseline design of a game’s reward structure. A daily is not a meaningful quest due to the standard format of them being meaningless filler on a checklist for players lacking engagement in the game in order to boost out enough reward for minimal investment to entice players to artificially inflates a company’s active player metric.
They’re not the same things as minor quests (basically temporary side quests) and you’re just talking in circles over nothing just because you’re using the wrong word.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In the Q&A, Steven does not say “We won’t have dailies.”
Instead what he says is, Ashes dailies won’t be the kind with RNG and won’t make players make players feel obligated to participate in them.
If you go to the wiki, you will see a section on Dailies. You will not see a section titled Minor Quests.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be. And you seem to be arguing about a label. Which is literally arguing semantics.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be.
I will say you have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
Every time I bring this up, all you do is cite examples from other games - as id you are unabke to see the possibility of different methids of distributing rewards.
Without citing any other games, why does ashes need dailies in place of simply adding that reward to the content?
In the Q&A, Steven does not say “We won’t have dailies.”
Instead what he says is, Ashes dailies won’t be the kind with RNG and won’t make players make players feel obligated to participate in them.
If you go to the wiki, you will see a section on Dailies. You will not see a section titled Minor Quests.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be. And you seem to be arguing about a label. Which is literally arguing semantics.
Nice selective quoting, maybe also mention this part:
It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur.
Where it clearly says quests will appear in reaction to a changing world. It’s an organic quest generation system.
You simply seem so stuck on games with awful reward structures that you can’t fathom a game having those rewards ingrained into content itself. You say content =/= payoff? Then you have not played any games with decent reward structures.
In the Q&A, Steven does not say “We won’t have dailies.”
Instead what he says is, Ashes dailies won’t be the kind with RNG and won’t make players make players feel obligated to participate in them.
If you go to the wiki, you will see a section on Dailies. You will not see a section titled Minor Quests.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be. And you seem to be arguing about a label. Which is literally arguing semantics.
Nice selective quoting, maybe also mention this part:
It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur.
Where it clearly says quests will appear in reaction to a changing world. It’s an organic quest generation system.
You simply seem so stuck on games with awful reward structures that you can’t fathom a game having those rewards ingrained into content itself. You say content =/= payoff? Then you have not played any games with decent reward structures.
But it also does not say that they are NOT dailies. ^^
I see it like this: randomly generated dailies that depend on the current node level, random events and built infrastructure (like a tavern that needs you to get meat for them each day).
I myself dont really care if there are dailies, as long as they dont five any majour rewards like armour. If they are repeatable quests that give gold or exp, then they could help bad players to also make a bit of gold on the side.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be.
I will say you have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
Every time I bring this up, all you do is cite examples from other games - as if you are unable to see the possibility of different methods of distributing rewards.
Without citing any other games, why does ashes need dailies in place of simply adding that reward to the content?
I don't have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
We don't know how rewards will be attached to "content" in Ashes. I bring up examples from other games to show that the manner in which rewards may or may not be attached to content is diverse and depends on the specific game design - depends on the devs, depends on the content, depends on the level of the adventurer and depends on how rewards distribution changes at various stages in the specific game.
Just using asking me what I think about "content" really gives me no info to weigh in on.
What I can do and have done is provide feedback on comparisons of different types of quests and different types of quest rewards - I can give feedback about rewards for a 10-20 minute quest vs rewards for a 30+ minute quest.
Content vs quest is like food vs fruit. "Shouldn't food have seeds?" I dunno, depends on the specific type of food we're talking about. Some food might have seeds other food might not have seeds. I expect fruit to have seeds, regardless of the size of the fruit. And I expect the size or amount of the seeds associated with the fruit to be commensurate with the size of the fruit. "Oh! Are you saying you should always get seeds for free??!!??"
Has nothing to do with my limited vision of reward distribution - and everything to do with the concept of "content" being to broad and nebulous a concept when the discussion topic is quests.
"Are you saying that food + fruit should have more seeds than food?"
I don't have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
We don't know how rewards will be attached to content. I bring up examples from other games to show that the manner in which rewards may be attached to content or not attached at all is diverse and depends on the specific game design
So what you're saying now is that you're fine without daily quests if the content is appropriately compensated for.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You simply seem so stuck on games with awful reward structures that you can’t fathom a game having those rewards ingrained into content itself. You say content =/= payoff? Then you have not played any games with decent reward structures.
Just because it seems that way to you doesn't mean your understanding is correct. I've given you examples of a Daily system in an MMORPG that does not have the mechanics you seem to think Daily systems must inherently have. I have never said content =/= payoff. I said whether content has payoff and what that payoff might be depends on wide variety of factors, so I would have to have examples of specific types of content in order to weigh in on what types of payoff I might find acceptable or desirable for that content.
What we are talking about in this discussion are quests and quest rewards.
We actually agree on the mechanics and systems, you are just adverse to labeling the feature Dailies.
Comments
Similar is not the same thing as FAR better.
Striking similarities is not the same thing as FAR better.
Before attacking an argument that is similar to your own, perhaps YOU should understand said argument.
Similar is not the same thing as FAR better.
Striking similarities is not the same thing as FAR better.
Before attacking an argument that is similar to your own, perhaps YOU should understand said argument.
But, that doesn't sound similar to the Wiz101 system. Also doesn't seem far better than the Wiz101 system.
I expect Ashes to have Weeklies as well as Dailies.
How things seem to you rarely conforms with reality.
Of course there are more than those two reasons for players to enjoy Dailies.
I like having an option for an easy thing to do each day so that I have the option to jump in and get a tangible reward for completing something in 10-20 minutes and jump back out. Because I don't always have 30+ minutes to complete a quest everyday. That's not about not wanting to think about what to do - that's about not wanting to waste a very limited amount of time.
This weekend, I played Fractured. The players I ended up hunting with were focused on killing Greater Earth Elementals in order to gain the Earthquake ability. So, I left where I was soloing Treants and traveled 20-30 minutes to join them. We spent a couple hours hunting Woodland Wisps and Saplings and Earth Elementals and Greater Earth Elementals. Then we took a break to watch and participate in a Twitch AMA with the lead designer, fought a few bosses that the LD ported over to us and then we all logged out.
Just now I jumped in to see what I could accomplish in 20 minutes. Most of the mobs in this area, I already have capped at 100%: Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps. Earth Elementals will take me about 10 minutes to defeat solo. But, I already have those capped as well. Greater Earth Elementals are at 50%, but I can't solo those.
It's going to take me at least 20 minutes to run back over to where I can solo Treants, which are at 40% completion. So, that would mean I spend the time I have today to run over there. I spend the 20 minutes I have tomorrow to get Treants up to 50-60%. If I want to meet my pals Thu or Fri to get Greater Earth Elementals up to 100%, they have to wait 20 minutes for me to run back over to where those are.
So, I would rather just stay near the Greater Earth Elementals are.
There's no point in me hunting Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals because they're already capped at 100% - no more xp gained for killing those mobs. So, it's really not worth it for me to log in until Thu or Fri.
If there were a Daily to kill 1 Earth Elemental that would make it worthwhile to log in for 10 minutes. Likely there would be some rudimentary story attached (in Wiz101 we're taking gavimetric readings) and there would be some small reward. At this point, I'd be happy to just get some cloth shoes as a reward. Something.
And the Kill 1 Earth Elemental doesn't have to be offered every day. If the Monday Daily was Kill 1 Treant, it might feel worth it to run 20 minutes to the Treant hunting grounds. The Goblin village is about 30 minutes away, so if the Monday Daily were Kill 1 Goblin Gladiator and I only have 10-20 minutes to play, I'm not going to run over there - I'd skip that Daily. If the Tuesday Daily were Kill 1 Goblin Gladiator, and the Treant hunting grounds were midway, I might do the Monday Daily and the Tuesday Daily...or might still skip the Tuesday Daily if I think 30 minutes is farther than I want to travel to meet the Earthquake seekers on Thursday.
It's all cost/benefit analysis, where time is the major consideration.
And, yeah, I like the Dailies in Apoc, but I typically strive to complete the Weeklies I want to complete in one day/game session, during a day when I have the time to attempt that. Saving up tokens seems unnecessary, but could be OK if that's the route devs chose to take.
You’re asking for quick bursts of rewards for 15 minutes of effort. That’s the definition of seeking instant gratification with minimal effort.
Ashes has dailies because they are meant to push you into doing different activities so they can get testing feedback. They’re not meant to make the game more immersive, or more rewarding in general.
When I say meaningful I’m talking about making progress toward a goal. You can craft armor, vote on an issue or for a mayor, you can set up a caravan, you can take part in a story quest for a religious or social or scientific organization. Those things give progress toward whatever other major goals you have, but they do not and should not give you random unrelated rewards like exp or buffs unless they are directly related and in proportion to the amount of time spent.
People are rightly against dailies, they’re a sign of a shallow game.
The OP asks if we want Dailies - why or why not? I've responded that it depends on how the Dailies are implemented. If Ashes Dailies are implemented like Wiz101 or Apoc, it's fine with me. Great for casual gameplay on days when people only have casual time to play. If they are implemented like NWO - that would be awful. We know that the devs don't Ashes Dailies to be like NWO. And we can expect to be like Apoc Dailies in terms of not feeling obligatory to complete. I've discussed what kinds of Dailies I find acceptable and what kinds of Dailies I don't find acceptable.
I think you mean Apoc in the quote above; not Ashes.
Apoc has Dailies so that we have a variety of activities to do while testing, besides just combat. They also provide incentives for PvE players who don't enjoy PvP combat to participate in the testing. And the Dailies are meant to make the testing more rewarding in general, especially on days when we only have time for a match or two, rather than hours to play.
I dunno why you're using the word random. Also, not sure what you mean by unrelated rewards like xp. I expect to get xp for crafting, participating in caravan raids, taking part in curated stories related to religions and social organizations. Buffs , to me, are not a good reward for Dailies since I consider Dailies to be primarily about providing opportunities for casual players who only have 10-20 minutes to play. Buff is unlikely to help with that.
In my Fractured example, buff as a reward would be pointless.
MMORPGs have diverse playstyles. Some people in this thread are OK with Dailies - others are not.
There is no right or wrong perspective. Everyone, including the devs, seems to agree that Dailies should not be designed to be obligatory, as they are in NWO - as in, making players feel that they're missing out if they skip a day because they are sent back to Day 1 on a calendar of rewards with increasing value.
Shallow game is subjective.
Meaningful is subjective.
Ashes Dailies will almost inherently be meaningful because the results of having multiple players participating in Dailies will have a significant impact on the world - rather than just affecting the individual player.
In Ashes, if I kill 1 Earth Elemental near my town, that has insignificant impact on the world. But, if a bunch of people in town kill 1 Earth Elemental nearby, that's likely to have a lasting impact on the Earth Elemental population. And, it might even mean that people have a few minutes left over to kill several Greater Earth Elementals.
I know you claimed at the end that this isn't the reason, but just because you said it isn't - without qualifying that statement - doesn't mean it's true.
Yes I meant APOC, but no I think you’re wrong in claiming those APOC dailies are to give players “other things to do”, they’re to give significant incentive to test features.
Open 3 chests: check if our RNG loot generation has properly weighted odds
Destroy 10 walls: Test the effectiveness and performance impact of destruction mechanics we’re still fine tuning
Kill 3 players: engage in general combat testing
These aren’t tasks with the purpose of adding “spice” to APOC.
And the devs HAVE said there won’t be traditional dailies in Ashes. We will get organically generated quests that change often, aren’t consistent between nodes or time of the week, and won’t be auto given. You’ll have to pick them up like any other quest, they won’t have such good rewards anyone will feel obligated.
In your example, it would appear because players haven’t killed any local earth elementals lately and they’ve grown out of hand, for a week an npc in the area gives out rewards for slaying earth elementals, until the population drops to more acceptable levels. That’s not a daily, that’s a spontaneous quest that appears only so long as the conditions demand. Casual players honestly shouldn’t be keeping up with dedicated players to any significant degree, said as someone with a full time job who won’t be keeping up with a high school kid
In my Fractured example, I stated that there is plenty I can do in 20 minutes. I can kill Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals, I just won't get any rewards whatsoever for doing so - not even xp.
I can take 20 minutes to travel to the Treant hunting grounds today, log out and then wait for my 20 minute game session tomorrow to hunt Treants, which will give me xp. But, then I would have to spend 20+ minutes running back to the Greater Earth Elementals hunting grounds Thursday and Friday. I'm not willing to waste 40 minutes running through already explored areas for no reward; it's not worth the time and effort to do so without some tangible reward. I'd rather spend those 40 minutes playing Life Beyond.
I always think about whether or not I want to do a Daily based on how it's going to affect my game session plans. I never do Dailies without a significant amount of consideration.
you best believe im running back to the daily everyday might stumble upon a hidden cave
This is my point.
Either, you want shit for nothing and so daily quests, or you don't want to think of a rewarding activity to do for 20 minutes and so daily quests.
Neither are a good reason.
If you can not think of something rewarding to do in 20 minutes of game time in an MMO, you're playing the wrong genre.
I mean, sure, MMO's are known for content pieces that take hours, but they also have content pieces that take seconds. Crafting is a fantastic example of this.
In terms of Ashes, maybe you want to help your node get stronger - go out and kill stuff. You get xp, your node gets xp, and you can spend as little or as much time on it as you want.
If not, there absolutely will be some form of commercial or industrial activity you can participate in that will net you rewards.
In an MMO, wanting daily quests comes down to either you can't think what to do for yourself, and/or you want free shit. There is no other reason to want daily quests, as every reason possible to want them fits in to those two reasons.
Being a mix of both reasons, as you seem to be, isn't any better than being exclusively one or the other. In order to even start to put up a debate against that argument, you need to being with outlining why it is you can't do the task the daily quest would have you do, even if that daily quest didn't exist.
Everything you have said about Fractured just tells me they use daily quests to cover up bad game systems (or use bad game systems to justify daily quests). Neither of these are applicable to this game unless you want to suggest that Ashes also offer no xp for killing suitable encounters. As long as Ashes offers a reward for killing encounters, the reward structure of games that do not are not applicable here.
Then we agree that Dailies can be meaningful. Especially when the results of multiple players activities are accrued.
"Spice" is a concept you are now introducing. I have not suggested that the Dailies exist to add "spice".
Which is what i have been saying along. Though, I don't recall a quote from the devs that says there won't be any Dailies consistent with time of the week.
All the rest, I covered in various posts on the first page.
That is not my example at all.
That's an example you've concocted. Doesn't even sound like the Ashes mechanics we've heard about.
Please post a quote where I spoke about "a spontaneous quest that appears only so long as the conditions demand." I didn't even have that as a concept until you just mentioned it.
Also, please show me a post where I said anything about casual players keeping up with "dedicated" players. I have never even held that thought at all, let alone written anything like that. You are arguing with yourself.
All of your posts include “give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort” and you repeatedly claim that the natural rewards aren’t what you want for that minimal effort.
Your referenced games have crap game design, to put it simply. The presence of dailies in those systems stems directly from their crappy design.
Crappy design is subjective.
The Ashes devs indicate that the MMORPG will have Dailies. I previously posted the dev quote on Page 3, but here it is again:
Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."
I'm still trying to break down exactly what it is you seem to want from a daily quest.
If the quest takes 20 minutes, and you don't think it should reward more than a 30 minute piece of content, that means you think the reward for the daily quest should be equal to no more than 9 minutes worth of content. If you add this reward to the reward you would naturally expect from a 20 minute piece of content, any more of a reward and you now have the same or better reward than a 30 minute piece of content.
So the question remains, why not just do the 20 minute piece of content? Why do you need the daily quest? Is it not perfectly fair that you get 20 minutes worth of reward for 20 minutes worth of content?
Yes and I’ve already replied to that, because literally in that quote tells you exactly what you need to know about the minor quests we’ll see in Ashes. They will be reactive to the world state. Quests will appear dependent on conditions of the local area. They will not be random tasks that appear simply to give rewards to players that have no idea what to do with themselves.
Quests that can be done in small amounts of time will exist, they will give rewards proportional to small amounts of time. They won’t give you extras that make that 20 minutes of effort equal 40 minutes of reward.
I'm not sure the devs would be able to keep up with hardcore time/casual challenge players steamrolling through hours of 10 minute quests. Seems unsustainable. Which is why 10-20 minute quests will likely be limited to once per day. If I only had 10-20 minutes to play on any given day - that one 10-20 minute quest and quest reward might very well be sufficient.
I think that means the content should be equal to no more than 20 minutes of content.
Should be easy to breakdown since I keep using Apoc as an example of what I expect the MMORPG Dailies to be like.
Here, you are talking about content. Content is not intrinsically tied to quests.
Quests typically provide additional rewards on top of the rewards associated with completing content - extra xp, extra gear, etc.
So, yes, I expect Daily Quests to provide rewards on top of what one would naturally expect from completing a 20 minute piece of content because that is how quests work. I do not expect a 10 minute Daily Quest or a 20 minute Daily Quest to reward more than a 30+ minute regular quest.
Key factor of Daily Quests is the understanding that most people do not have 2+ hours to play every day - thus a core component of Daily Quests is that they are quick and easy to find, obtain and complete compared to regular quests. They need to be obtainable and completable in less than 30 minutes... preferably in less than 20 minutes.
10-20 minute quests are not common in MMORPGs - especially not at higher levels or max levels. Daily Quests are commonly 10-20-30 minutes in length. So that people can complete a quest every day, even on days when they have less than 30 minutes to play.
Daily Rewards tend to be different than regular quest rewards. For instance, in Wiz101, the rewards are frequently crowns (embers) or PvP Arena tickets or gold, rather than xp and gear/items which are the rewads for regular quests.
But, in Apoc the Daily Rewards are just a lesser form of the Weekly Rewards - which fine. But, Adventurer xp as the only Daily Reward won't be sufficient in the MMORPG once people hit max Adventurer Level. Same for gear.
So, most likely Daily Rewards in the MMORPG will also include additional forms of rewards, like embers. Doesn't have to be xp plus embers. Fine if Daily rewards are just embers. But the devs would probably want to limit such rewards to once or twice per day, rather than be available for hardcore time players to focus on for many hours.
Earning a total of 100 embers per month for doing Dailies, interspersed with other types of rewards, like xx monster coins, skins and emotes -similar to the Apoc cosmetic rewards- seems sufficient to me.
Could even be something like "cosmetic tokens" I can spend at a shop to purchase the set of cosmetic gear I like.
Even 20 minute quests are difficult to find in MMORPGs - unless they are Dailies.
How do you propose we determine where to find a 20 minute quest on any given day unless there is some equivalent of a Daily Quest Giver?
"20 minute piece of content" does not inherently mean there will be any tangible reward for 20 minutes of gameplay. "20 minute piece of content" could entail running from one village to another and then having to wait for another game session before I can start "grinding" whatever the crux of the quest is.
Again, I refer to my Fractured example:
My options for 20 minutes of content today could be running from the Earth Elemental hunting grounds over to the Treant hunting grounds, then it would be time to log out. I could stay where I am and kill two Earth Elementals, but I would no longer get xp for that and I would not learn any new skills.
Just because there is content that can be done in 20 minutes does not mean that content is attached to a quest that can be completed in 20 minutes nor does it mean the content comes with a tangible reward.
20 minutes really is not a lot of time if when it includes searching for a casual time quest. Probably have to spend at least a 5 minutes finding the quest. Then at least 5 minutes traveling to the location. Then 5 minutes completing the task. Then 5 minutes returning to the Quest Giver.
In Wiz101, it takes less than 5 minutes to travel to the Daily Quest Giver. I can fast travel to the Daily Quest Giver in 2 minutes or less. It will probably take 5-15 minutes to travel to the quest location, depending on the Daily. 5 minutes or less to actually do the task. And the crowns, gold or PvP tickets are instantly rewarded without needing to travel back to the Daily Quest Giver.
In Wiz101, the Dailies are all a mini-repeat of quests that have already been completed so, I would no longer be getting quest rewards for completing those tasks if not for the Dailies. The Wiz101 Daily Rewards tend to be things like crowns (embers) or PvP tickets, which are not rewards for regular quests.
What I want from the Ashes MMORPG Dailies is pretty much the same thing I get from the Apoc Dailies: Easy access to quest options that can be completed in 10-20 minutes. And rewards commensurate with the task and/or time.
Does it not just make more sense to tie the reward to the content? Almost all aspects of crafting can be broken down in to pieces of content that last seconds. If you are an avid crafter, there will always be something you can craft.
I would wager the housing system will contain many small tasks that need to be completed, ticking off a few of them when you only have a few minutes to play sounds like a really good idea to me.
Most solo combat encounters take seconds, in 20 minutes you could probably manage to go out and kill 25+ level appropriate mobs in order to assist your node in leveling up (and yourself in leveling up too!).
Most longer quests can be looked at as being many small tasks lined up from end to end, there is likely to be a longer quest or quest chain you would like to complete, and either ticking off the next objective or positioning yourself to better tick that objective off next time you log in seems like a really good use of play time.
The above is just off the top of my head, I wasn't even going to bother with it as I thought it was all obvious stuff, but I decided to edit it in anyway.
Now, you may well try and say "but I want a tangible reward" for my 20 minutes - and if you do that means you are just after something for free.
You may also say "but then I have to decide which of the many choices placed in front of me I should do", in which case you want the game to think for you.
Honestly, that is all there is to it.
Content is not inherently tied to a tangible reward.
Quests are inherently tied to a tangible reward.
A 20 minute Daily Quest reward should not be of greater value than a 30 minute quest reward.
In fact, a Daily quest reward should probably be of a lower caliber altogether than a regular quest reward.
Hence, why I gave examples like embers, monster tokens, emotes or even cosmetic tokens for Daily Quests, while I would expect xp, gold and actual gear (rather than skins) for regular quests.
No. Again, content could be anything: Stomping on snakes in WoW is content. There are no tangible rewards for doing so. Killing grey mobs in WoW or EQ is content. There's no xp and IIRC no loot from that.
As I've already stated several times, in Fractured I can kill Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals for hours and hours and hours - but I won't get any xp for it because I've already reached the max xp in each of those categories. They still count as content, but there are no longer any rewards whatsoever for killing them.
Content does not intrinsically come with tangible rewards... especially at max Adventurer level.
Attaching rewards to "content" typically results in abysmally slow grinding. Which is why rewards associated with quests are almost always significantly more substantive than whatever rewards might be tied to content... when rewards are tied to content.
"A 20 minute piece of content" is a nebulous concept - in most MMORPGs, I'm not even sure what that could be other than a quest or a dungeon. And the vast majority of quests and dungeons that are not newbies or Dailies are designed for 30+ minutes.
There are multiple types of content I might complete in 20 minutes in an MMORPG - there aren't necessarily any tangible rewards tied to those activities, though.
Honestly, that is all it comes down to. Are you saying you are unable to find rewarding content without daily quests?
Because if you are, that sounds like a "you" problem.
Actually, your poor reading comprehension is a you problem.
If all you’re asking for is minor quests to exist, then you shouldn’t be asking for “dailies”. Dailies have a particular design and reward structure that signals bad baseline design of a game’s reward structure. A daily is not a meaningful quest due to the standard format of them being meaningless filler on a checklist for players lacking engagement in the game in order to boost out enough reward for minimal investment to entice players to artificially inflates a company’s active player metric.
They’re not the same things as minor quests (basically temporary side quests) and you’re just talking in circles over nothing just because you’re using the wrong word.
Instead what he says is, Ashes dailies won’t be the kind with RNG and won’t make players make players feel obligated to participate in them.
If you go to the wiki, you will see a section on Dailies. You will not see a section titled Minor Quests.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be. And you seem to be arguing about a label. Which is literally arguing semantics.
In the same way you are claiming this... I will say you have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
Every time I bring this up, all you do is cite examples from other games - as id you are unabke to see the possibility of different methids of distributing rewards.
Without citing any other games, why does ashes need dailies in place of simply adding that reward to the content?
Nice selective quoting, maybe also mention this part:
Where it clearly says quests will appear in reaction to a changing world. It’s an organic quest generation system.
You simply seem so stuck on games with awful reward structures that you can’t fathom a game having those rewards ingrained into content itself. You say content =/= payoff? Then you have not played any games with decent reward structures.
But it also does not say that they are NOT dailies. ^^
I see it like this: randomly generated dailies that depend on the current node level, random events and built infrastructure (like a tavern that needs you to get meat for them each day).
I myself dont really care if there are dailies, as long as they dont five any majour rewards like armour. If they are repeatable quests that give gold or exp, then they could help bad players to also make a bit of gold on the side.
We don't know how rewards will be attached to "content" in Ashes. I bring up examples from other games to show that the manner in which rewards may or may not be attached to content is diverse and depends on the specific game design - depends on the devs, depends on the content, depends on the level of the adventurer and depends on how rewards distribution changes at various stages in the specific game.
Just using asking me what I think about "content" really gives me no info to weigh in on.
What I can do and have done is provide feedback on comparisons of different types of quests and different types of quest rewards - I can give feedback about rewards for a 10-20 minute quest vs rewards for a 30+ minute quest.
Content vs quest is like food vs fruit. "Shouldn't food have seeds?" I dunno, depends on the specific type of food we're talking about. Some food might have seeds other food might not have seeds. I expect fruit to have seeds, regardless of the size of the fruit. And I expect the size or amount of the seeds associated with the fruit to be commensurate with the size of the fruit. "Oh! Are you saying you should always get seeds for free??!!??"
Has nothing to do with my limited vision of reward distribution - and everything to do with the concept of "content" being to broad and nebulous a concept when the discussion topic is quests.
"Are you saying that food + fruit should have more seeds than food?"
In Ashes, the Dailies will appear in reaction to a changing world.
In Ashes, the Dailies will be part of an organic quest generation system.
Just because it seems that way to you doesn't mean your understanding is correct. I've given you examples of a Daily system in an MMORPG that does not have the mechanics you seem to think Daily systems must inherently have. I have never said content =/= payoff. I said whether content has payoff and what that payoff might be depends on wide variety of factors, so I would have to have examples of specific types of content in order to weigh in on what types of payoff I might find acceptable or desirable for that content.
What we are talking about in this discussion are quests and quest rewards.
We actually agree on the mechanics and systems, you are just adverse to labeling the feature Dailies.