Do you want "Daily Quests" if so, to what extent?

noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I don't have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
We don't know how rewards will be attached to content. I bring up examples from other games to show that the manner in which rewards may be attached to content or not attached at all is diverse and depends on the specific game design

So what you're saying now is that you're fine without daily quests if the content is appropriately compensated for.

I don't think I'm saying that because I'm not really even factoring in "content".
First you would have to ask if I'm fine without quests in a game where the "content" is appropriately compensated for. "Content" is your fixation but that is really a different topic.
What I'm saying is that in a game with rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes, I also want rewards for quests that take 10-20 minutes. And it is fine with me if those 10-20 minute quests include a restriction that they can only be completed once per day. Similar to the Dailies in Wiz101 and the Dailies in Apoc.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I don't have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
We don't know how rewards will be attached to content. I bring up examples from other games to show that the manner in which rewards may be attached to content or not attached at all is diverse and depends on the specific game design

So what you're saying now is that you're fine without daily quests if the content is appropriately compensated for.

I don't think I'm saying that because I'm not really even factoring in "content".
First you would have to ask if I'm fine without quests in a game where the "content" is appropriately compensated for. "Content" is your fixation but that is really a different topic
What I'm saying is that in a game with rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes, I also want rewards for quests that take 10-20 minutes. And it is fine with me if those 10-20 minute quests include a restriction that they can only be completed once per day. Similar to the Dailies in Wiz101 and the Dailies in Apoc.

But why do they have to be daily quests? What's wrong with having normal narrative driven quests that can be done in 20 minutes?

Literally none of the arguments you have made have daily quests as the logical remedy.

I don't understand why you think that Dailies can't have narratives? The Dailies in Wiz101 have narratives.
Logical remedy for what?

I think that a normal "Kill x amount of boars." Quest has the same amount of narrative as a "Bring me 15 pieces of boar meat." Daily quest tbh...

Damokles wrote: »

I think that a normal "Kill x amount of boars." Quest has the same amount of narrative as a "Bring me 15 pieces of boar meat." Daily quest tbh...

But a town notice that says “Tavern seeking boar meat” with a limit on how much they’re accepting total from all players because they don’t need 1 million boar roasts, not in quest format, simply a standard part of the world you can engage with, is much different than “Everyone gets x gold for bringing the tavern 15 pieces of boar meat”

For consistent rewards from less intensive gameplay, content that rewards the first to the task is good, not arbitrarily limiting the amount a single player can give is good, not attaching any of these to a specific quest to be picked up is good and feels more organic.

Read the sign, it can jot down a in a journal, get an update on how much the tavern needs by speaking to the tavern owner, decide if you want to contribute and be paid premium for the boar meat or find another avenue of activity. Decide if you want to return often to make sure you get small amounts sold at a premium, or if you want to come back with a larger amount at risk of the tavern already having all its meat when you returns a long while later, but with larger payoff it is doesn’t.

Same can apply for a castle seige, or node seige prep. A final limit or minimum success rate as a collective.

There’s ways to create rewarding gameplay outside of instanced questing. It hardly needs to have a single-reward structure like a quest does. It doesn’t need an arbitrary quest marker to be interacted with multiple times to be engaged with the task multiple times.

Caeryl wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

I think that a normal "Kill x amount of boars." Quest has the same amount of narrative as a "Bring me 15 pieces of boar meat." Daily quest tbh...

But a town notice that says “Tavern seeking boar meat” with a limit on how much they’re accepting total from all players because they don’t need 1 million boar roasts, not in quest format, simply a standard part of the world you can engage with, is much different than “Everyone gets x gold for bringing the tavern 15 pieces of boar meat”

For consistent rewards from less intensive gameplay, content that rewards the first to the task is good, not arbitrarily limiting the amount a single player can give is good, not attaching any of these to a specific quest to be picked up is good and feels more organic.

Read the sign, it can jot down a in a journal, get an update on how much the tavern needs by speaking to the tavern owner, decide if you want to contribute and be paid premium for the boar meat or find another avenue of activity. Decide if you want to return often to make sure you get small amounts sold at a premium, or if you want to come back with a larger amount at risk of the tavern already having all its meat when you returns a long while later, but with larger payoff it is doesn’t.

Same can apply for a castle seige, or node seige prep. A final limit or minimum success rate as a collective.

There’s ways to create rewarding gameplay outside of instanced questing. It hardly needs to have a single-reward structure like a quest does. It doesn’t need an arbitrary quest marker to be interacted with multiple times to be engaged with the task multiple times.

That would mean that normal quests are limited by the amount of players that are able to do them, which is not the case.

Damokles wrote: »

That would mean that normal quests are limited by the amount of players that are able to do them, which is not the case.

Tbh I can’t even follow your thought process that would make you think a temporary open hunting writ is a “normal quest” like a story quest is.

Caeryl wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

That would mean that normal quests are limited by the amount of players that are able to do them, which is not the case.

Tbh I can’t even follow your thought process that would make you think a temporary open hunting writ is a “normal quest” like a story quest is.

There could be many reasons why people would want to put a daily limit on how much boar can be hunted in a local region. Hunt the boar, but, don't completely depopulate the region or make them go extinct. In Ashes, it is possible for us to depopulate a region of a specific mob type if we kill enough of them.
"It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities." --Steven Sharif
I think it's more likely that hunting boar would be a Daily and killing zombies or dire wolves would be a "normal" quest. In Wiz101, the Daily Quest GIver would have a quest that says something like, "In order to give honor to the Goddess of the Hunt this day, go to Rotweald Forest and kill 1 Boar. You have 24 hours to complete this quest." And that quest, similar to the Dailies in Apoc, would only be available one day per week, at most. (In Wiz101, there is counter for how much time is left for that quest to be available before changing to a different quest on the next calendar day, so depending on when you log in and grab the quest, it might say "You have 43 minutes to complete this quest.)

Damokles wrote: »

But a town notice that says “Tavern seeking boar meat” with a limit on how much they’re accepting total from all players because they don’t need 1 million boar roasts, not in quest format, simply a standard part of the world you can engage with, is much different than “Everyone gets x gold for bringing the tavern 15 pieces of boar meat”/i]
That town notice would be in this case a normal quest...

So to be clear, in your opinion any optional activity provided by the game must be a part of a quest.
That’s faulty logic.
My example is literally as basic as the game informing players that the tavern is paying extra for meat at the moment because they’re going to throw a feast for some celebration.
It’s not a quest and there’s absolutely no point into turning into a quest because the rewards are part of the content. Build rewards into the basic structure, stop thinking that rewards MUST be attached to questing.

Tavern paying players to hunt boar is a quest.
This topic isn't about any optional activity. This topic is about daily quests. Let's breakdown your example in bits.
When we log into the game on a day where we only have 20 minutes to play, how do we determine which quests that can be completed in 20 minutes include "extra pay"? How do we quickly pick out the 20 minutes or less quests from the 30+ minutes quests?

Dygz wrote: »

Tavern paying players to hunt boar is a quest.
This topic isn't about any optional activity. This topic is about daily quests. Let's breakdown your example in bits.
When we log into the game on a day where we only have 20 minutes to play, how do we determine which quests that can be completed in 20 minutes include "extra pay"? How do we quickly pick out the 20 minutes or less quests from the 30+ minutes quests?

You can tell which are shorter because presumably you are able to read and have at least moderate understanding of context of what you’ve read. At this point I’m starting to think that might be an optimistic assumption on my part.

A tavern briefly upping their buy price on a particular item is no more a quest than “discovering new places gives you exp” means you’ve been given a quest to discover places. It’s no more a quest than “I need elemental essence to craft something” is a quest to kill elementals.

You seem to be avoiding the question.
It's Tuesday and I have 20 minutes to play the Ashes of Creation MMORPG. In that time, I have to travel to a place that has quests, find a quest that can be completed in 20 minutes, travel to the quest location, complete the task and travel back to turn in the quest.
How do I quickly determine which quests are going to be 20 minutes or less? Even if the quests are listed on a bulletin board, I still have to take time to read through the posted quests and figure out which ones are suitable for the time I have and is something I have the interest or skills to do. In 20 minutes, I probably have about 5 minutes to select a quest. Looking at a bulletin board, I'm going to want to quickly determine short quests from long quests and then read through the short quest options to find one that is suitable for my playstyle.
So - how will the short quest options be easily distinguishable from the long quest options so that I don't waste time reading through a bunch of quests that are going to be too long for my game session time?
A tavern offering a reward for a task is a quest. Doesn't matter what the reward is. "I will pay you to bring me xx elemental essence so I can craft something" is a quest. Doesn't necessarily mean I have to go kill elementals if I already have enough elelmental essence to hand over.
How do I determine which tavern is increasing their buy price? There is no fast travel, so how do we factor in the travel time for players to get to this tavern?

Dygz wrote: »

You seem to be avoiding the question.
It's Tuesday and I have 20 minutes to play the Ashes of Creation MMORPG. In that time, I have to travel to a place that has quests, find a quest that that can be completed in 20 minutes, travel to the quest location, complete the task and travel back to turn in the quest.

How do I quickly determine which quests are going to be 20 minutes or less?
Even if the quests are listed on a bulletin board, I still have to take time to read through the posted quests and figure out which ones are suitable for the time I have and is something I have the interest or skills to do.
In 20 minutes, I probably have about 5 minutes to select a quest. Looking at a bulletin board, I'm going to want to quickly determine short quests from long quests and then read through the short quest options to find one that is suitable for my playstyle.
So - how will the short quest options be easily distinguishable from the long quest options so that I don't waste time reading through a bunch of quests that are going to be too long for my game session time?

A tavern offering a reward for a task is a quest. Doesn't matter what the reward is.

Selling items to NPC is not a quest, ffs. Do you think every merchant that buys your stuff is giving you quests to go collect it? No, obviously not. If they advertise they’re paying more for a while, it’s still not a quest.

I answered your question: read, use context clues, basic grade school methods of deduction. You’re the one who decided the town notice must be cluttered within dozens of extra notices out of literally nowhere. You’re asking the game to lead you around on a leash because apparently it takes you five full minutes to figure out something to do.

Go harvest some flowers for 20 minutes. Fight some mobs for exp. Go finish the next step in an actual quest. Craft something.

Muster up some motivation and pick something. There’s gonna be plenty for you to do, with rewards on their own, no quest required.

Edit: And to be clear, that is exactly what your suggestion boils down to. “I am incapable of thinking of goals for myself, so the game must tell me what to do”

You seem very set in thinking it’s necessary for games to treat its players like lost children needing direction. It isn’t necessary nor is it wanted, so I will be dropping this pointless discussion.

Selling items to an NPC is not a quest. I can sell items to any NPC, even ones that don't say "I need elemental essence to craft something." True.
But, if I only have 20 minutes to play an MMORPG on a Tuesday, I'm not going to log in just to farm Elementals and sell the essence to a generic NPC with no quest reward attached to it. I'm going to wait until Saturday and farm Elementals until my inventory is full or until I reach my goals for farming Elementals. If the devs are trying encourage me to log into the game every day, they're going to have to do something more than just provide NPCs where I can sell my loot for gold.

You did not answer my question. Reading and using context clues takes up time that I don't have. That works fine if I have an hour to play. If I only have 20 minutes to play, I'm not going to be wasting time trying to read through a bunch of quests to figure out which ones I can complete in 20 minutes and which ones are going to take longer than 20 minutes.
I am assuming that the town has more than one quest on the bulletin board. True. In general, how many quests will be on this bulletin board? How many will be short quests that are less than 20 minutes and how many, in general, will be 30+ minutes? If there is just one quest on the bulletin board each day and it is takes 10-20 minutes to complete, I will consider that to be a Daily Quest Bulletin Board. If there is one quest that takes 10-20 minutes to complete and one quest that takes 30+ minutes to complete, I will consider the one that takes 10-20 minutes to be a Daily Quest. So let's take your example in bits, back up and figure out how many short quests will be offered and how many long quests will be on the bulletin board.

You keep asserting that I am incapable of goals for myself. That simply is not the case. The goals I have for an MMORPG typically take an hour or more. Logging into an MMORPG for 20 minutes or less typically is not worth it for me. I will wait for a day where I have at least an hour to play. I typically put in more than 20 hours of gameplay per week. I'm happy to skip the days where I only have 20 minutes to play. If the devs want me to log in every day -even on days where I only have 20 minutes to play, they will have to provide something more enticing than just the general xp or loot I will get from farming for 20 minutes. Otherwise, I am happy to wait for the days when I have 45+ minutes to play.

I have never said that MMORGs need to have Dailies. If the devs want to entice me to log in every day, they are going to have to offer something more than farming mobs for 20 minutes. Otherwise, I am happy to wait and just play on the days that I have 45+ minutes to play.

Monday night, I logged into Wiz101 to check on some details of their Dailies for this discussion.
They have a brand new Life pet. As the Charles Darwin of Wiz101, I felt enticed to purchase a couple of them so I can train them from Baby to Adult, map the skills they will develop and have those posted on the Petnome Project website so players will know what skills these new pets have. These pets cost 6,500 crowns (embers) each. I only had 4,952 crowns, so I spent $25 to purchase 13,750 crowns and grabbed two pets.
It takes about 10+ minutes of playing mini-games to train a pet from Baby to Teen just using the pet snacks that came as rewards from regular questing. I can speed up the training some by spending 115 crowns on Snack Pack which has more powerful snacks than normal or speed up the training greatly by spending 2.5K crowns on a Mega-Snack.
Monday I had 20 minutes to play. I trained with regular snacks in order to test the time it normally takes to go from Baby to Teen. It takes 20+ minutes to go from Teen to Adult. It's not worth it to me to spend another 10 minutes training half way to Adult. I prefer to wait until I can go from Teen to Adult in one sitting. I did have time to do the Daily and the Daily Reward that alt is on is 10 crowns. Yay!! The way the Daily Reward distribution works, if I do Dailies every day for another 26 days, I will earn a total of 100 crowns...which is just about enough to pay for one Snack Pack. Doesn't matter if I skip real world days playing - the 26th time I do a Daily I will have earned 100 crowns. So, I don't feel obligated to play every day. I don't feel like I'm missing anything if I skip a day. But, I do feel enticed to do one quick and easy quest each day so I can get some crowns for free. It's like dropping pennies in a penny jar everyday for a couple weeks so I can buy a comic book.
Tuesday, I only had 20 minutes to play, so I did the same thing with my second pet. Wednesday I only had 20 minutes to play, so I just did the Daily. Today, I had a couple hours to play, so I trained my pet from Teen to Adult on both pets and also did the Daily.
Really has nothing to do with having goals for myself and everything to do with whether I feel working on those goals is worth logging in for less than 30 minutes. Typically, that answer is going to be no. If the devs want to entice me to log in each day -even on days when I only have 20 minutes to play- they will have to come up with something more enticing than just farming mobs for xp and loot. For Wiz101, they entice me with a handful of crowns - other days on the Daily Reward Calendar reward with gold, pvp tickets and house decorations - without crowns included, I would ignore the Dailies completely.
I like Dailies when they feel optional. The Dailies I don't like are the ones that reset to Day 1 rewards if you skip one day, even by a few minutes.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You seem to be avoiding the question.

It's annoying when people do that, isn't it?
Now here is a question for you; in a game where travel time is specifically noted as being significant, and traveling just a few nodes over could well take 20 minutes or more, what makes you event think Ashes will even cater to people that only have 20 minutes to play?

Further, if you log out one night in a location where there are no quests, and your next play session is only minutes, that is your fault.
Ashes, after all, is not a game designed specifically for children (unlike somsome that are mentioned far too often). Because of that, if you log out one night too far away from quests to have time to find one and complete it in the time you have available, you should spend that short play session moving your character to a better location, and try to remember to log out in better places in the future.

noaani wrote: »

It's annoying when people do that, isn't it?

Actually, no. It's not annoying.

noaani wrote: »

Now here is a question for you; in a game where travel time is specifically noted as being significant, and traveling just a few nodes over could well take 20 minutes or more, what makes you event think Ashes will even cater to people that only have 20 minutes to play?

Because the purpose of Dailies is to entice players to log in every day.
Most of the MMORPG fanbase is over the age of 20 - they have jobs and/or families which precludes them from playing every day for hours. So if the devs want to encourage players to log in every day they have to have to include a mechanic that entices players to log in and accomplish something significant even on days were they have less than 30 minutes to play.

noaani wrote: »

Further, if you log out one night in a location where there are no quests, and your next play session is only minutes, that is your fault.

There is no fault about it. I typically don't have play sessions that are only minutes. Most likely because I am, first and foremost an explorer. Remember, my Bartle score is Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%.
I'm fine being out in the boonies with no quests as long as there is plenty of map left for me to explore. But, I'm not going to login to just explore for 20 minutes. I'm not going to login to just farm 15 boars. I'm going to wait until the next day that I have 45+ minutes to play. Unless there is something compelling that is enticing me to play for only 20 minutes. If the devs don't provide that something compelling it's fine with me. I am happy to only log in when I have 45+ minutes. This topic is not - "Is it OK with you have Ashes doesn't have Dailies?" My answer to that is yes.
The topic question is "Do you want Dailies in Ashes". My original answer, before last Friday's livestream, was - it depends on how the Dailies are designed. If they are like the Dailies in Wiz101 or Apoc, where they take 10-20 minutes and they don't make it feel obligatory to do the Dailies every day and where we aren't penalized by resetting the rewards to Day 1 if we skip a day, I'm fine with Ashes having Dailies. If they include monster coins as a reward for 3 of the days on the Daily Reward Calendar and they include embers as a reward for another 3 days... that might entice me to login in most days if not every day. If they don't have quests that I feel I can find and complete and turn in for a reward within 20 minutes, I just won't play when I only have 20 minutes to play. And I will be perfectly happy with that.
The kind of Dailies I don't want Ashes to have is the kind where missing a day resets the Rewards Calendar back to Day 1 - such that I have to skip Day 13 (rewards 3 monster tokens) due to work and class obligations so, now I'm set back to Day 1 (rewards 1 house decoration)... and I have to wade through to Day 3 (rewards 1 monster token) before I start earning the reward I really want. But, we know, as of the last dev livestream that Ashes Dailies aren't designed with that kind of obligation. Which is great!

noaani wrote: »

Ashes, after all, is not a game designed specifically for children (unlike somsome that are mentioned far too often). Because of that, if you log out one night too far away from quests to have time to find one and complete it in the time you have available, you should spend that short play session moving your character to a better location, and try to remember to log out in better places in the future.

Especially, during summers and other school breaks, children have time to spend hours each day playing an MMORPG if they want to. Adults tend not to have the luxury of spending 30+ minutes every day playing an MMORPG.
I'm not going to spend a 20 minute session moving a character to a different location. I just won't play until I have 45+ minutes - and, for me, 45 minutes to an hour is a very short session. I'd be more likely to wait til I have at least 2 hours to play. I typically put in about 30-40 hours per week when I'm exploring an MMORPG with the first few characters. Under 45 minutes, I typically consider pointless to play.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Because the purpose of Dailies is to entice players to log in every day.

If you pay attention to the majority of posters in this thread, this is EXACTLY what players don't want.
There is no actual line to most people between being enticed and being forced.
The notion of games wanting to entice players to log in every day has become very last generation.
Back in 2004 it wasn't an issue for entertainment companies to expect people to consume content when that company made that content available. Whether it was a daily or weekly show, or logging in to an MMO every day to do the daily quests.
These days though, with Netflix and it's ilk, people expect to be abke to consume content as and when they have the time - assuming the time theybhave is equal to or greater than the minimum time of one unit of that content (an episode, if you will).
MMO's should be following suit. If I want to watch a full season of my favourite show in one sitting, that is no one's business but my own. I am fully aware fhat means I will be out of that content until the next season, but again, my business.
The notion of adding in daily quests existing to entice players to log in every day has past it's day, there is only one thing to say in response to anyone suggesting it; ok boomer.

What players don't want is to feel obligated to log in every day, such that they feel like they've missed out on the reward structure if days are skipped. Hence, Steven's answer to the Dailies question. Devs are going to want to entice players to log in on weekdays, rather than just have them wait for the weekends. Clearly, adding in Daily quests is not past its day since Apoc has Dailies and Ashes will have Dailies as well.
Also: https://fortnite.gamepedia.com/Daily_Quests
There is a line between enticed and obligated - I've given an example several times in this thread.
And, yeah, I actually am a Boomer. I don't have kids, though, so I'm not the one typically complaining about not having time to play MMORPGs as much as I'd like. It's typically the players between the ages of 25 and 50 complaining about that. Gen X and Gen Y.