DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Um. Castle sieges are weekly events which require prep for defense... and for attack. While it's technically not necessary to have daily prep, daily prep will be best for the most favorable outcome.
Caravans will always be aiding Node progression, so no point in creating or disbanding a caravan just to complete a daily quest.
Previous games haven't had Node progression or Religious progression or Social progression, so, you many be right that previous games have not had tasks that can be completed by an individual in ten minutes that have anything more than minor individual impact.
Ashes is not like previous games in that respect.
Guild leaders are not in charge of Religious and Social organizations AFAIK. Individuals will be participating in Religious and Social and Racial and Naval progression, so we can expect to see some form of dailies encouraging that participation. Voting is just one possibility.
Your Caravan example assumes that all three tasks - build, escort and attack - will be available on the same day. It's more likely that only one of those tasks would be available. I also think it's doubtful that the initial Creation will be the daily. More likely that crafting materials for an already created Caravan will be the daily. So, more likely that those three players would all provide a modular piece for the Caravan. And might as well capitalize on the investment by also escorting it's built.
Come to think of it, have we been told that's even possible to disband a Caravan once it's been built?
Also, seems more likely that three players working together would choose to escort or defend together - especially since we can be sure that the completion of the daily is really going to be either successfully defending or successfully looting the Caravan rather than simply joining a Caravan battle.
You can, of course, create strawman examples that have no bearing on the actual design.
It's a free world, after all.
Um. Castle sieges are weekly events which require prep for defense... and for attack. While it's technically not necessary to have daily prep, daily prep will be best for the most favorable outcome.
Caravans will always be aiding Node progression, so no point in creating or disbanding a caravan just to complete a daily quest.
Previous games haven't had Node progression or Religious progression or Social progression, so, you many be right that previous games have not had tasks that can be completed by an individual in ten minutes that have anything more than minor individual impact.
Ashes is not like previous games in that respect.
Guild leaders are not in charge of Religious and Social organizations AFAIK. Individuals will be participating in Religious and Social and Racial and Naval progression, so we can expect to see some form of dailies encouraging that participation. Voting is just one possibility.
Your Caravan example assumes that all three tasks - build, escort and attack - will be available on the same day. It's more likely that only one of those tasks would be available. I also think it's doubtful that the initial Creation will be the daily. More likely that crafting materials for an already created Caravan will be the daily. So, more likely that those three players would all provide a modular piece for the Caravan. And might as well capitalize on the investment by also escorting it's built.
Come to think of it, have we been told that's even possible to disband a Caravan once it's been built?
Also, seems more likely that three players working together would choose to escort or defend together - especially since we can be sure that the completion of the daily is really going to be either successfully defending or successfully looting the Caravan rather than simply joining a Caravan battle.
You can, of course, create strawman examples that have no bearing on the actual design.
It's a free world, after all.
All the more reason we don’t need any of those activities as dailies on a checklist.
Caravans are rewarded anyway.
Castle sieges require prepwork and planning no matter what.
Voting should be done because people care about the topic being voted on.
There’s absolutely no reason to stick a checklist of menial tasks into a game if the game actually has meaningful activities. If Ashes has to rely on dailies to keep players logging in, then it’s failed at its most basic goals.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
I don't know that dailies would need to be on a checklist.
And I don't believe the purpose of dailies in Ashes would be to keep players logging in.
That has been the purpose in previous MMORPGs, sure.
Caravans are rewarded anyway - sieges require prepwork anyway - voting should be done because people care about the topic...doesn't mean there should be no additional incentives or bonuses.
Same with all the other tasks/activities that might be used for dailies.
I don't know that dailies would need to be on a checklist.
And I don't believe the purpose of dailies in Ashes would be to keep players logging in.
That has been the purpose in previous MMORPGs, sure.
Caravans are rewarded anyway - sieges require prepwork anyway - voting should be done because people care about the topic...doesn't mean there should be no additional incentives or bonuses.
Same with all the other tasks/activities that might be used for dailies.
Dailies are a checklist.
They absolutely should not have any extra bonuses unrelated to the task at hand.
When you successfully guide a caravan you should not be receiving something that’s used for progression in a religion skill line.
When you complete a PvP bounty, you shouldn’t be getting a buff to damage against PvE mobs.
When you vote on an issue within a node, you shouldn’t be getting crafting materials.
It doesn’t make sense and it obligates those who don’t have an interest in the content to do it anyway because it gives them items for their actual preferred content.
We have absolutely no need for dailies if the content is designed well.
If you guide a caravan to its destination with minimal damage, you can get bonuses to materials or pay.
If you pick up a PvP bounty and turn it in on the same day, you can get bonuses to pay and experience.
If you vote regularly in a node, you can become more influential with NPCs.
Reward dedication and efficiency, not pure the ability to repeat a task.
Um. Castle sieges are weekly events which require prep for defense... and for attack. While it's technically not necessary to have daily prep, daily prep will be best for the most favorable outcome.
Each castle is sieged every 4 weeks, the nodes attached to each castle are sieged in the three weeks prior to the castle being sieged.
Thing is though, just because the game tells players that the siege is happening every 4 weeks, doesn't mean that players will show up every 4 weeks. Sieging a castle is expensive, and so is defending it. Defenders have no choice but to put time and resources in to defending their castle every month, but potential attackers do not. The single best strategy for successfully taking over a castle would therefore be to put several months worth of resources in to a single attempt, rather than attempting every month with a single months worth of resources.
The thing is, there is no way to have a "turn in" for a quest where the objective is to help the attackers of a siege. The preperation for attacking a castle happens in individual players inventories, it happens in guild banks. It isn't like the attackers are building structures out in a field somewhere for a week before a siege.
Even "if" this were the case, how would a siege daily task quest work if no one was actively working on attacking the castle this month? Would we have to rely on NPC's to siege player castles now just so that daily quests can feature castle sieges?
I think you have a resource dump mechanic in mind here. That isn't how sieges will work.
Previous games haven't had Node progression or Religious progression or Social progression, so, you many be right that previous games have not had tasks that can be completed by an individual in ten minutes that have anything more than minor individual impact.
Ashes is not like previous games in that respect.
There have been games with both social and religious progression paths.
Guild leaders are not in charge of Religious and Social organizations AFAIK. Individuals will be participating in Religious and Social and Racial and Naval progression, so we can expect to see some form of dailies encouraging that participation. Voting is just one possibility.
Now, I can only comment in regards to the specific words you type out and post to these forums. I can not speak to what you have in your head when you type them out - only to the actual words themself. Your specific suggestion in relation to the above was
Or participating in a Node/Religious/Social/Guild vote.
Now, while you are right in that guilds leaders do not necessarily need to be the people in charge of religions or social organisations - although I can not see any confirmation at all that any players will be in charge of these entities at all (both have a progression path, but there is no talk of them being lead by players).
However, what guild leaders DO lead (and the clue to this is in their title), is guilds. You SPECIFICALLY said that you think participating in a guild vote should be a daily task - and guild votes are things guild leaders have control over.
Now, I can fully agree that if daily tasks were a thing in Ashes, there could be tasks based around nodes, social organizations and religions (I doubt anybody would argue against that). This is not what I was disagreeing with you on. I was SPECIFICALLY disagreeing with you on participation in votes being a suitable daily task - especially if that task can be completed via voting in a guild vote - which is exactly what you suggested.
Again, I can not speak to what you were thinking or meaning, only to what you have typed.
Your Caravan example assumes that all three tasks - build, escort and attack - will be available on the same day. It's more likely that only one of those tasks would be available
If there are daily tasks to start a caravan, defend a caravan and attack a caravan, and only one of each of the three is offered on any given day, then on the day when the quest is to attack a caravan, people will simply not run caravans.
It's almost like you forgot that people are able to talk to each other in game.
Lets remember that you said that daily quests should take 15 minutes.
Daily quests give players some thing quick to accomplish each day.
If I only have 15 minutes to play, I can probably find something of some small significance to do.
So, more likely that those three players would all provide a modular piece for the Caravan. And might as well capitalize on the investment by also escorting it's built.
All of a sudden, the daily task that you think should take players 15 minutes to do is now all about running a caravan which would likely take an hour or longer if you include the time it takes to set up and such.
Finally, I want to point out to you that in this thread, you have made the following two statements.
For the Ashes MMORPG, Dailies need to feel meaningful - and should it be easy for them to be meaningful
So you somehow want daily quests to be both superfluous (or unnecessary), and meaningful (or worthwhile).
While these are not diametrically opposed terms, I don't see any way for them to co-exist as accurate adjectives for the same thing.
You seem at times to be more interested in "winning" a debate online than you are in having a coherent opinion on a topic and putting that across. Your opinion on daily quests (at least in as far as you have put across in this thread) is absolutely not coherent - you want them to be quick, yet to take an hour, you want them to be important, but also unnecessary.
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It seems to me that there are only two perspectives from a players point of view on wanting daily quests in games.
Either they want to be given a range of easy tasks to do each day so that they don't need to think about what to do, or they want to get free shit for various tasks that they would likely do anyway.
Neither are overly good arguments from a developer point of view - if a task they have added to the game isn't enjoyable enough and doesn't reward enough for players to want to do that task without the addition of a daily quest for it, then that task needs to be re-evaluated.
If that task is worth doing without the addition of the daily quest, then the daily quest is just giving players something for nothing.
From a development perspective, if daily tasks *have* to exist in Ashes, my first two suggestions would be as follows.
First, the tasks ask players to do something they couldn't or wouldn't do if they didn't have that task. This may be finding an item or entity, it may be an escort task (though only if the AI pathing is up to par), it could even be a purely dialogue based quest where you have to navigate through a web of dialogue options with an NPC to get a piece of information.
The second thing is that any daily task should be able to be accepted, completed and turned in within the boundaries of the one node. Any quest that sees you having to leave the influence of the node you are in is larger in scope than a daily task.
You can, of course, create strawman examples that have no bearing on the actual design.
It's a free world, after all.
A strawman is where, after you have put forward a perspective in a debate, rather than debating the perspective you put forward, I claim to be debating that but instead debate something else. Essentially, a strawman is when you debate something other than the point the other puts across.
Now, as I have said several times in this post, I can only speak as to what you have typed out and posted. All points I have made have been in direct response to things you have posted - regardless of whether you meant what you were saying or not.
Coming up with potential examples of how things could work isn't a strawman - it is simply coming up with potential examples.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
A straw man is where you reframe and misrepresent an existing argument in a manner which can be easily knocked down.
https://grammarist.com/rhetoric/straw-man-fallacy/ The straw man fallacy involves misrepresenting an opponent’s position to make it easier to refute. Straw man arguments often oversimplify opposing views or disregard inconvenient points in favor of points that are easy to argue against.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I sware you two fight more than an old married couple who can't afford a divorce
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
A straw man is where you reframe and misrepresent an existing argument in a manner which can be easily knocked down.
https://grammarist.com/rhetoric/straw-man-fallacy/ The straw man fallacy involves misrepresenting an opponent’s position to make it easier to refute. Straw man arguments often oversimplify opposing views or disregard inconvenient points in favor of points that are easy to argue against.
Yeah, other than me dumbing it down a bit for ease of understanding, that's what I said.
As I said several times in the above post - all I can speak to are the words you type. There are times when I don't think you mean the words you type - either because they make no sense or because they directly contradict something else you just said.
Most people that claim others use strawman arguments against them are simply suffering a disconnect between what they think they have said and what they have actually said. It's really easy to think people are using strawman arguments against you if you think you have said something other than what is contained within the words you have used.
If you think someone is using a strawman against you in a forum debate, the appropriate thing to do is to quote what you said, and then quote their response that you think is a strawman. Chances are, what you quote will not actually mean what you think it means, and coming at the situation in this manner gives you the chance to clarify your position rather than blatantly claiming strawman useage is in effect and then not actually discussing any other points.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If we're going with the traditional bland MMO "fetch" or "kill X number of monsters" quests, then NO. If AoC is being developed as a new spin on MMORPG's, then pointless daily quests will just seem like typical spaceholder content. Weekly and even monthly qeusts, or more appropriately called something like "Endeavors", could allow more freedom in design and gameplay, especially if the actual objectives are more open-ended or ambiguous.
Daily quests punish players who have full-time jobs and families, or otherwise less spare time than "hardcore" gamers. Longer time frames not only encourage more long-term commitment, but they also don't require you to stress over whether or not you can log in every single day to do boring repetitive missions.
And for the love of God, NO DAILY LOGIN BONUS SYSTEM. Those are almost as bad as daily quests, and sort of ruin the immersion when you can simply log in every day, get a reward, and log out. Some MMO's throw end-game content at you just for logging in enough days in a row, even if it takes months-worth of a login streak. A credible steady source of income based on game performance would be enough to satisfy at least 90% of the player base, and with a dynamic world setting, the fluctuating economy would be a perfect way to create that daily income.
tl:dr NO daily quests, NO daily login bonus streak BS, YES to a daily income source affected by player actions, performance, and state of relevant economy and world setting. Sorry for wall of text.
Daily quests is a mobile game gimmick that i absolutely do not stand for. Don't wannem
agreed
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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T ElfMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Daily, repetitive quests usually are a precursor to the decline of a game. Make them rarely used. I would rather decide for myself what to do in a game without having "must do first" and then just get weary and log out.
Formerly T-Elf
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And then you miss a week of daily quests and feel behind because of it, further killing your motivation to log in.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In Ashes, we will feel behind in any case because the world progresses significantly in a week. We can’t do everything.
I don’t think Ashes dailies will make us feel left behind, rather they will be quick tasks that will give us bit of a boost in some fashion - embers, xp or rep, etc... While also adding to overall Node, Religious, Social and/or Racial progression.
In Ashes, we will feel behind in any case because the world progresses significantly in a week. We can’t do everything.
I don’t think Ashes dailies will make us feel left behind, rather they will be quick tasks that will give us bit of a boost in some fashion - embers, xp or rep, etc... While also adding to overall Node, Religious, Social and/or Racial progression.
No. We don’t need those attached to dailies. Rewards should be directly related to what content we do and NOT given huge bursts for the first time a day. It has direct negative impacts where players h interest in it just want to get a task over with, rather than doing it well.
Attach a daily to a node vote, and people will pick the first option because it’s convenient, not because the choice appealed to them. If the first caravan a day has significantly more reward, then people will load up with garbage they’re fine losing just to get it out of the way.
No good comes from dailies that can’t be built into the standard gameplay
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
Huge burst is not an inherent component of Dailies and has nothing to do with anything I’ve said.
First task (Caravan) of the day also really has nothing to do with anything I have said, nor is that an inherent component of a Daily.
Dailies can be built into standard game play.
Huge burst is not an inherent component of Dailies and has nothing to do with anything I’ve said.
First task (Caravan) of the day also really has nothing to do with anything I have said, nor is that an inherent component of a Daily.
Dailies can be built into standard game play.
“Dailies” in the way that most people recognize, as in “bonus rewards for doing a menial task for the first time per day”, cannot possibly be built into standard gameplay.
The bonus comes out of nowhere, causing the first time you do it to be the single most valuable. If you have a daily of “craft three pieces of armor” and are rewarded with an 10 gold while crafting a piece of armor usually grants zero gold without player interaction, you just encourage people to spam alts for quick money.
Dailies are absolutely unnecessary unless the baseline reward system is poorly designed, which should cause the reward system to be redesigned and not earn a bandaid solution that rewards people with more alts than dedication to game content.
Like someone else said earlier “Anything you can do in ten minutes, cannot be significantly meaningful” nor should it be rewarded heavily with bursts of money or exp, much less real $ currencies.
If a daily quest give character bound token/currency/progression I find it OK as a catch-up mechanism.
Example: In WoW, you can buy PvP armour from honor point.
-If you bought everything it is useless for you so you will not feel that you must log in just for that.
-You can't make profit from it, so you will not be encourage to make alts just to farm money.
-If you have a main, but would like to try other class, you can have best gear faster
-you earn reward from the thing what you really want to do and that reward is useful for that thing
-If you play less than others, you can catch-up them faster so you won't be in disadvantage position for too long
Before somebody misunderstand me, I do not want wowlike honor system, but I can imagine that we have to collect some other currency than money to buy something useful.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What is the purpose of daily quests? From what I've seen they have 2 purposes:
1. Give new max level characters a starting point into end-game content
2. encourage players to log in every day
Daily quests give players some thing quick to accomplish each day.
If I only have 15 minutes to play, I can probably find something of some small significance to do.
Doesn't necessarily matter whether I'm max level.
I'm not max level in Wiz101, but I know if I log in for 10 minutes, I can win some gold or crowns.
I'm not max level in Apoc, but the Daily quests help push me a bit closer to the next level. It's great when I can jump in for one match, finish a daily by opening 3 chests and jump back out. Especially on nights when I have class or homework or really need to be studying for an exam.
And, it's easy enough to ignore the Daily quests when they aren't enticing.
The problem isn't really the Daily quests.
The problem is having nothing else new to do for months and years except the Daily quests.
Just going back to this point here. In my experience, dailies in mmorpgs are used to encourage players to do content that they wouldn't normally be interested in, and just do it for the rewards. I've seen this trend in a bunch of mmorpgs including WoW, GW2, FFXIV, Aion, etc. and they all do the same thing. They offer rewards for doing daily content of things that are of no interest to the vast majority of players, and the only reason why they put in those rewards is because if they didn't, nobody would do that content.
Ask any Mythic raider in WoW if they would do world quests if they didn't reward them with AP that they needed for raiding.
If a daily quest give character bound token/currency/progression I find it OK as a catch-up mechanism.
Example: In WoW, you can buy PvP armour from honor point.
-If you bought everything it is useless for you so you will not feel that you must log in just for that.
-You can't make profit from it, so you will not be encourage to make alts just to farm money.
-If you have a main, but would like to try other class, you can have best gear faster
-you earn reward from the thing what you really want to do and that reward is useful for that thing
-If you play less than others, you can catch-up them faster so you won't be in disadvantage position for too long
Before somebody misunderstand me, I do not want wowlike honor system, but I can imagine that we have to collect some other currency than money to buy something useful.
That idea sounds fine, but not some capped earnings system. Let the active players have more benefit. That certainly seems fair they get more when they put in more, said as someone who works full time and certainly won’t be able to no-life any game.
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KarthosMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
Any game that requires you to spend hours doing dailies every day can fuck off in my not-so-humble opinion.
I want to play the game, not do busy work that's poorly hidden as "content".
I think dailies work only so far as they don't take you out of playing the game. Going to random zones to do the same kill or gathering quests isn't playing the game, it's busy work.
Make dailies about building the world, or a competition, such as gathering resources for the node. Something that gives incentives for players to group up and work together.
If a daily quest give character bound token/currency/progression I find it OK as a catch-up mechanism.
Example: In WoW, you can buy PvP armour from honor point.
-If you bought everything it is useless for you so you will not feel that you must log in just for that.
-You can't make profit from it, so you will not be encourage to make alts just to farm money.
-If you have a main, but would like to try other class, you can have best gear faster
-you earn reward from the thing what you really want to do and that reward is useful for that thing
-If you play less than others, you can catch-up them faster so you won't be in disadvantage position for too long
Before somebody misunderstand me, I do not want wowlike honor system, but I can imagine that we have to collect some other currency than money to buy something useful.
That idea sounds fine, but not some capped earnings system. Let the active players have more benefit. That certainly seems fair they get more when they put in more, said as someone who works full time and certainly won’t be able to no-life any game.
I agree that such a system would need to not be artificially capped.
However, imo, the gear from a system like this needs to be considered baseline gear. It would be the easiest gear that everyone has reasonable access to, and so should be assumed to be the gear everyone has - and then we work up from that point via other means.
If a daily quest give character bound token/currency/progression I find it OK as a catch-up mechanism.
Example: In WoW, you can buy PvP armour from honor point.
-If you bought everything it is useless for you so you will not feel that you must log in just for that.
-You can't make profit from it, so you will not be encourage to make alts just to farm money.
-If you have a main, but would like to try other class, you can have best gear faster
-you earn reward from the thing what you really want to do and that reward is useful for that thing
-If you play less than others, you can catch-up them faster so you won't be in disadvantage position for too long
Before somebody misunderstand me, I do not want wowlike honor system, but I can imagine that we have to collect some other currency than money to buy something useful.
That idea sounds fine, but not some capped earnings system. Let the active players have more benefit. That certainly seems fair they get more when they put in more, said as someone who works full time and certainly won’t be able to no-life any game.
I agree that such a system would need to not be artificially capped.
However, imo, the gear from a system like this needs to be considered baseline gear. It would be the easiest gear that everyone has reasonable access to, and so should be assumed to be the gear everyone has - and then we work up from that point via other means.
Absolutely. None of the highest tier gear should be available outside master crafters or group raids (or through players trading if the previously two sources wish to sell it). I’ve very against creating “rare” items out of something that can be farmed.
Edit: Basically sums up half my ire for dailies too. Either the rewards are crap so people will complain they’re not worth doing, or they’re good enough to do by dangling rarer stuff which 1) requires players do it at risk of losing out and 2) pumps “rare” or sought after items into the market en masse, thus destroying the player economy for those items.
Enjoy being a harvester when players can get 50 logs just by doing a 10 minute task.
Enjoy seeing a town vote go awry because unfortunately the day it occurred there was a daily to vote and now you can’t tell if the voting is accurate feedback because the daily rewarded Embers.
Enjoy planning to move your caravan of somewhat rare materials, then it turns out that day there’s a daily to attack a caravan, and know there’s dozens of players camped on the roads just waiting to swarm one that comes by so they can check off that daily for a burst of exp toward their next level.
Absolutely. None of the highest tier gear should be available outside master crafters or group raids (or through players trading if the previously two sources wish to sell it). I’ve very against creating “rare” items out of something that can be farmed.
I feel some inconsistency here. If I farm money anyhow, I will be able to buy the best gear from master crafters. From my perspective the "rare" item had been crated from something what I farmed. As the current plan is there will be very few soulbound items. There will be lot of good item on the market.
Additionally gatherers are farming row materials. Crafters created something from the farmed materials. The only question is what rare material will need for the best gear what can't be farmed easily. If we hide them behind a raid, it cause problem for PvP lovers. Why they need to kill a 'dragon' to be good in PvP? If we hide it behind PvP element, the thing is but from the other point of view. I will not like if it will be a rarely appeared material what can be find if you are lucky.
Also the caravan system you mentioned, there are lot of open question, what can make the game great or ruin it.
Absolutely. None of the highest tier gear should be available outside master crafters or group raids (or through players trading if the previously two sources wish to sell it). I’ve very against creating “rare” items out of something that can be farmed.
I feel some inconsistency here. If I farm money anyhow, I will be able to buy the best gear from master crafters. From my perspective the "rare" item had been crated from something what I farmed. As the current plan is there will be very few soulbound items. There will be lot of good item on the market.
Additionally gatherers are farming row materials. Crafters created something from the farmed materials. The only question is what rare material will need for the best gear what can't be farmed easily. If we hide them behind a raid, it cause problem for PvP lovers. Why they need to kill a 'dragon' to be good in PvP? If we hide it behind PvP element, the thing is but from the other point of view. I will not like if it will be a rarely appeared material what can be find if you are lucky.
Also the caravan system you mentioned, there are lot of open question, what can make the game great or ruin it.
@Ghoosty Not to be rude but in the quote itself you can clearly see I don’t have any issue with players selling created or looted endgame gear.
I have an issue with the game itself selling endgame gear.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do you mean the 'game itself selling' gear for real cash? That would be pay to win, which @Steven has said will never happen.
If you mean using in game currency, that would be the same as buying from a crafter, so what is the problem?
Do you mean the 'game itself selling' gear for real cash? That would be pay to win, which @Steven has said will never happen.
If you mean using in game currency, that would be the same as buying from a crafter, so what is the problem?
No, the game, an NPC if that’s easier to understand, selling high end gear from the void in unlimited supply, is not remotely the same as players who have created or made that gear voluntarily selling it to another player.
For one it means “elite” gear is commonplace as it’s unlimited. For another it means any player selling the same sort of gear cannot sell for any more than what it’s sold for from the NPC, making the player market restricted from the get-go as well as taking away the agency of players to determine the value of that sort of gear.
@Caeryl I understood what you said. I just said that I do not feel big difference between 'farm gold'-'buy player', 'farm honor'-'buy npc' from the perspective of buying player.
We have unlimited supply of gold, unlimited supply of 'iron' what can use to prepare gear. The only difference is that the player transform the material to gear or an NPC do that.
Of course from crafter point of view, the difference is huge. But still exist that a rare gear created from something what can be farmed.
Comments
Caravans will always be aiding Node progression, so no point in creating or disbanding a caravan just to complete a daily quest.
Previous games haven't had Node progression or Religious progression or Social progression, so, you many be right that previous games have not had tasks that can be completed by an individual in ten minutes that have anything more than minor individual impact.
Ashes is not like previous games in that respect.
Guild leaders are not in charge of Religious and Social organizations AFAIK. Individuals will be participating in Religious and Social and Racial and Naval progression, so we can expect to see some form of dailies encouraging that participation. Voting is just one possibility.
Your Caravan example assumes that all three tasks - build, escort and attack - will be available on the same day. It's more likely that only one of those tasks would be available. I also think it's doubtful that the initial Creation will be the daily. More likely that crafting materials for an already created Caravan will be the daily. So, more likely that those three players would all provide a modular piece for the Caravan. And might as well capitalize on the investment by also escorting it's built.
Come to think of it, have we been told that's even possible to disband a Caravan once it's been built?
Also, seems more likely that three players working together would choose to escort or defend together - especially since we can be sure that the completion of the daily is really going to be either successfully defending or successfully looting the Caravan rather than simply joining a Caravan battle.
You can, of course, create strawman examples that have no bearing on the actual design.
It's a free world, after all.
All the more reason we don’t need any of those activities as dailies on a checklist.
Caravans are rewarded anyway.
Castle sieges require prepwork and planning no matter what.
Voting should be done because people care about the topic being voted on.
There’s absolutely no reason to stick a checklist of menial tasks into a game if the game actually has meaningful activities. If Ashes has to rely on dailies to keep players logging in, then it’s failed at its most basic goals.
And I don't believe the purpose of dailies in Ashes would be to keep players logging in.
That has been the purpose in previous MMORPGs, sure.
Caravans are rewarded anyway - sieges require prepwork anyway - voting should be done because people care about the topic...doesn't mean there should be no additional incentives or bonuses.
Same with all the other tasks/activities that might be used for dailies.
Dailies are a checklist.
They absolutely should not have any extra bonuses unrelated to the task at hand.
When you successfully guide a caravan you should not be receiving something that’s used for progression in a religion skill line.
When you complete a PvP bounty, you shouldn’t be getting a buff to damage against PvE mobs.
When you vote on an issue within a node, you shouldn’t be getting crafting materials.
It doesn’t make sense and it obligates those who don’t have an interest in the content to do it anyway because it gives them items for their actual preferred content.
We have absolutely no need for dailies if the content is designed well.
If you guide a caravan to its destination with minimal damage, you can get bonuses to materials or pay.
If you pick up a PvP bounty and turn it in on the same day, you can get bonuses to pay and experience.
If you vote regularly in a node, you can become more influential with NPCs.
Reward dedication and efficiency, not pure the ability to repeat a task.
Each castle is sieged every 4 weeks, the nodes attached to each castle are sieged in the three weeks prior to the castle being sieged.
Thing is though, just because the game tells players that the siege is happening every 4 weeks, doesn't mean that players will show up every 4 weeks. Sieging a castle is expensive, and so is defending it. Defenders have no choice but to put time and resources in to defending their castle every month, but potential attackers do not. The single best strategy for successfully taking over a castle would therefore be to put several months worth of resources in to a single attempt, rather than attempting every month with a single months worth of resources.
The thing is, there is no way to have a "turn in" for a quest where the objective is to help the attackers of a siege. The preperation for attacking a castle happens in individual players inventories, it happens in guild banks. It isn't like the attackers are building structures out in a field somewhere for a week before a siege.
Even "if" this were the case, how would a siege daily task quest work if no one was actively working on attacking the castle this month? Would we have to rely on NPC's to siege player castles now just so that daily quests can feature castle sieges?
I think you have a resource dump mechanic in mind here. That isn't how sieges will work.
There have been games with both social and religious progression paths. Now, I can only comment in regards to the specific words you type out and post to these forums. I can not speak to what you have in your head when you type them out - only to the actual words themself. Your specific suggestion in relation to the above was Now, while you are right in that guilds leaders do not necessarily need to be the people in charge of religions or social organisations - although I can not see any confirmation at all that any players will be in charge of these entities at all (both have a progression path, but there is no talk of them being lead by players).
However, what guild leaders DO lead (and the clue to this is in their title), is guilds. You SPECIFICALLY said that you think participating in a guild vote should be a daily task - and guild votes are things guild leaders have control over.
Now, I can fully agree that if daily tasks were a thing in Ashes, there could be tasks based around nodes, social organizations and religions (I doubt anybody would argue against that). This is not what I was disagreeing with you on. I was SPECIFICALLY disagreeing with you on participation in votes being a suitable daily task - especially if that task can be completed via voting in a guild vote - which is exactly what you suggested.
Again, I can not speak to what you were thinking or meaning, only to what you have typed.
If there are daily tasks to start a caravan, defend a caravan and attack a caravan, and only one of each of the three is offered on any given day, then on the day when the quest is to attack a caravan, people will simply not run caravans.
It's almost like you forgot that people are able to talk to each other in game.
Lets remember that you said that daily quests should take 15 minutes. Now, you also said this. All of a sudden, the daily task that you think should take players 15 minutes to do is now all about running a caravan which would likely take an hour or longer if you include the time it takes to set up and such.
Finally, I want to point out to you that in this thread, you have made the following two statements. So you somehow want daily quests to be both superfluous (or unnecessary), and meaningful (or worthwhile).
While these are not diametrically opposed terms, I don't see any way for them to co-exist as accurate adjectives for the same thing.
You seem at times to be more interested in "winning" a debate online than you are in having a coherent opinion on a topic and putting that across. Your opinion on daily quests (at least in as far as you have put across in this thread) is absolutely not coherent - you want them to be quick, yet to take an hour, you want them to be important, but also unnecessary.
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It seems to me that there are only two perspectives from a players point of view on wanting daily quests in games.
Either they want to be given a range of easy tasks to do each day so that they don't need to think about what to do, or they want to get free shit for various tasks that they would likely do anyway.
Neither are overly good arguments from a developer point of view - if a task they have added to the game isn't enjoyable enough and doesn't reward enough for players to want to do that task without the addition of a daily quest for it, then that task needs to be re-evaluated.
If that task is worth doing without the addition of the daily quest, then the daily quest is just giving players something for nothing.
From a development perspective, if daily tasks *have* to exist in Ashes, my first two suggestions would be as follows.
First, the tasks ask players to do something they couldn't or wouldn't do if they didn't have that task. This may be finding an item or entity, it may be an escort task (though only if the AI pathing is up to par), it could even be a purely dialogue based quest where you have to navigate through a web of dialogue options with an NPC to get a piece of information.
The second thing is that any daily task should be able to be accepted, completed and turned in within the boundaries of the one node. Any quest that sees you having to leave the influence of the node you are in is larger in scope than a daily task.
A strawman is where, after you have put forward a perspective in a debate, rather than debating the perspective you put forward, I claim to be debating that but instead debate something else. Essentially, a strawman is when you debate something other than the point the other puts across.
Now, as I have said several times in this post, I can only speak as to what you have typed out and posted. All points I have made have been in direct response to things you have posted - regardless of whether you meant what you were saying or not.
Coming up with potential examples of how things could work isn't a strawman - it is simply coming up with potential examples.
https://grammarist.com/rhetoric/straw-man-fallacy/
The straw man fallacy involves misrepresenting an opponent’s position to make it easier to refute. Straw man arguments often oversimplify opposing views or disregard inconvenient points in favor of points that are easy to argue against.
As I said several times in the above post - all I can speak to are the words you type. There are times when I don't think you mean the words you type - either because they make no sense or because they directly contradict something else you just said.
Most people that claim others use strawman arguments against them are simply suffering a disconnect between what they think they have said and what they have actually said. It's really easy to think people are using strawman arguments against you if you think you have said something other than what is contained within the words you have used.
If you think someone is using a strawman against you in a forum debate, the appropriate thing to do is to quote what you said, and then quote their response that you think is a strawman. Chances are, what you quote will not actually mean what you think it means, and coming at the situation in this manner gives you the chance to clarify your position rather than blatantly claiming strawman useage is in effect and then not actually discussing any other points.
Well someone has to do it and I'm just here to supply the popcorn
Daily quests punish players who have full-time jobs and families, or otherwise less spare time than "hardcore" gamers. Longer time frames not only encourage more long-term commitment, but they also don't require you to stress over whether or not you can log in every single day to do boring repetitive missions.
And for the love of God, NO DAILY LOGIN BONUS SYSTEM. Those are almost as bad as daily quests, and sort of ruin the immersion when you can simply log in every day, get a reward, and log out. Some MMO's throw end-game content at you just for logging in enough days in a row, even if it takes months-worth of a login streak. A credible steady source of income based on game performance would be enough to satisfy at least 90% of the player base, and with a dynamic world setting, the fluctuating economy would be a perfect way to create that daily income.
tl:dr NO daily quests, NO daily login bonus streak BS, YES to a daily income source affected by player actions, performance, and state of relevant economy and world setting. Sorry for wall of text.
agreed
Formerly T-Elf
I don’t think Ashes dailies will make us feel left behind, rather they will be quick tasks that will give us bit of a boost in some fashion - embers, xp or rep, etc... While also adding to overall Node, Religious, Social and/or Racial progression.
No. We don’t need those attached to dailies. Rewards should be directly related to what content we do and NOT given huge bursts for the first time a day. It has direct negative impacts where players h interest in it just want to get a task over with, rather than doing it well.
Attach a daily to a node vote, and people will pick the first option because it’s convenient, not because the choice appealed to them. If the first caravan a day has significantly more reward, then people will load up with garbage they’re fine losing just to get it out of the way.
No good comes from dailies that can’t be built into the standard gameplay
First task (Caravan) of the day also really has nothing to do with anything I have said, nor is that an inherent component of a Daily.
Dailies can be built into standard game play.
How is that meaningful though?
If a daily is just built in to standard play, it is literally nothing other than giving us shit for free.
“Dailies” in the way that most people recognize, as in “bonus rewards for doing a menial task for the first time per day”, cannot possibly be built into standard gameplay.
The bonus comes out of nowhere, causing the first time you do it to be the single most valuable. If you have a daily of “craft three pieces of armor” and are rewarded with an 10 gold while crafting a piece of armor usually grants zero gold without player interaction, you just encourage people to spam alts for quick money.
Dailies are absolutely unnecessary unless the baseline reward system is poorly designed, which should cause the reward system to be redesigned and not earn a bandaid solution that rewards people with more alts than dedication to game content.
Like someone else said earlier “Anything you can do in ten minutes, cannot be significantly meaningful” nor should it be rewarded heavily with bursts of money or exp, much less real $ currencies.
Example: In WoW, you can buy PvP armour from honor point.
-If you bought everything it is useless for you so you will not feel that you must log in just for that.
-You can't make profit from it, so you will not be encourage to make alts just to farm money.
-If you have a main, but would like to try other class, you can have best gear faster
-you earn reward from the thing what you really want to do and that reward is useful for that thing
-If you play less than others, you can catch-up them faster so you won't be in disadvantage position for too long
Before somebody misunderstand me, I do not want wowlike honor system, but I can imagine that we have to collect some other currency than money to buy something useful.
Just going back to this point here. In my experience, dailies in mmorpgs are used to encourage players to do content that they wouldn't normally be interested in, and just do it for the rewards. I've seen this trend in a bunch of mmorpgs including WoW, GW2, FFXIV, Aion, etc. and they all do the same thing. They offer rewards for doing daily content of things that are of no interest to the vast majority of players, and the only reason why they put in those rewards is because if they didn't, nobody would do that content.
Ask any Mythic raider in WoW if they would do world quests if they didn't reward them with AP that they needed for raiding.
That idea sounds fine, but not some capped earnings system. Let the active players have more benefit. That certainly seems fair they get more when they put in more, said as someone who works full time and certainly won’t be able to no-life any game.
I want to play the game, not do busy work that's poorly hidden as "content".
I think dailies work only so far as they don't take you out of playing the game. Going to random zones to do the same kill or gathering quests isn't playing the game, it's busy work.
Make dailies about building the world, or a competition, such as gathering resources for the node. Something that gives incentives for players to group up and work together.
I agree that such a system would need to not be artificially capped.
However, imo, the gear from a system like this needs to be considered baseline gear. It would be the easiest gear that everyone has reasonable access to, and so should be assumed to be the gear everyone has - and then we work up from that point via other means.
Absolutely. None of the highest tier gear should be available outside master crafters or group raids (or through players trading if the previously two sources wish to sell it). I’ve very against creating “rare” items out of something that can be farmed.
Edit: Basically sums up half my ire for dailies too. Either the rewards are crap so people will complain they’re not worth doing, or they’re good enough to do by dangling rarer stuff which 1) requires players do it at risk of losing out and 2) pumps “rare” or sought after items into the market en masse, thus destroying the player economy for those items.
Enjoy being a harvester when players can get 50 logs just by doing a 10 minute task.
Enjoy seeing a town vote go awry because unfortunately the day it occurred there was a daily to vote and now you can’t tell if the voting is accurate feedback because the daily rewarded Embers.
Enjoy planning to move your caravan of somewhat rare materials, then it turns out that day there’s a daily to attack a caravan, and know there’s dozens of players camped on the roads just waiting to swarm one that comes by so they can check off that daily for a burst of exp toward their next level.
I feel some inconsistency here. If I farm money anyhow, I will be able to buy the best gear from master crafters. From my perspective the "rare" item had been crated from something what I farmed. As the current plan is there will be very few soulbound items. There will be lot of good item on the market.
Additionally gatherers are farming row materials. Crafters created something from the farmed materials. The only question is what rare material will need for the best gear what can't be farmed easily. If we hide them behind a raid, it cause problem for PvP lovers. Why they need to kill a 'dragon' to be good in PvP? If we hide it behind PvP element, the thing is but from the other point of view. I will not like if it will be a rarely appeared material what can be find if you are lucky.
Also the caravan system you mentioned, there are lot of open question, what can make the game great or ruin it.
@Ghoosty Not to be rude but in the quote itself you can clearly see I don’t have any issue with players selling created or looted endgame gear.
I have an issue with the game itself selling endgame gear.
If you mean using in game currency, that would be the same as buying from a crafter, so what is the problem?
No, the game, an NPC if that’s easier to understand, selling high end gear from the void in unlimited supply, is not remotely the same as players who have created or made that gear voluntarily selling it to another player.
For one it means “elite” gear is commonplace as it’s unlimited. For another it means any player selling the same sort of gear cannot sell for any more than what it’s sold for from the NPC, making the player market restricted from the get-go as well as taking away the agency of players to determine the value of that sort of gear.
We have unlimited supply of gold, unlimited supply of 'iron' what can use to prepare gear. The only difference is that the player transform the material to gear or an NPC do that.
Of course from crafter point of view, the difference is huge. But still exist that a rare gear created from something what can be farmed.