Here's the gist summed up in one easy image for you
Very interesting covers, maybe i would call them a bit nitpicky?
Would you please have a look at these following magazines?
They are currently and have been for quite a while the ones most read by women(Cosmopolitan) and men(Men's Health), do you notice something?
jeez this is becoming less about the actual reason behind wanting the game changed and more a discussion on how the human body is marketed towards people and demographics in real life.
YES, DOCTORED IMAGES OF THE FEMALE FORM SUCKS. same for men. and you see them plastered all over Instagram and your Facebook feed showing off an unrealistic image.
it's a video game. these are PIXELS, its not a real person doctored to make them some goddess figure. it is a parody of the actual form of a woman.
And yet you're harping on about how showing a female image is cringe and somehow depraved god forbid it has too many of those little pixels.
people just want to look how they want. that's why people are yelling NO HORNS! in the py'rai thread and ADD THIS HAIR! in the haircut thread.
If you don't want to see the female form depicted with exposed pixels (holy shit, I laughed so hard even having to type this sentence.) then don't play teen rated games and stick to general audience kid stuff please. so others do not have to bubblewrap your eyeballs.
or wrap your own character in a nun outfit.
I for one choose to embrace the female bodily autonomy and social independence that was won in the latter half of the 20th century and collectively tell everyone advocating for absolutely stupid things like no showing off legs!, no cleavage! on other peoples pixelated characters in a fantasy videogame to f*ck off.
jeez this is becoming less about the actual reason behind wanting the game changed and more a discussion on how the human body is marketed towards people and demographics in real life.
YES, DOCTORED IMAGES OF THE FEMALE FORM SUCKS. same for men. and you see them plastered all over Instagram and your Facebook feed showing off an unrealistic image.
it's a video game. these are PIXELS, its not a real person doctored to make them some goddess figure. it is a parody of the actual form of a woman.
And yet you're harping on about how showing a female image is cringe and somehow depraved god forbid it has too many of those little pixels.
people just want to look how they want. that's why people are yelling NO HORNS! in the py'rai thread and ADD THIS HAIR! in the haircut thread.
If you don't want to see the female form depicted with exposed pixels (holy shit, I laughed so hard even having to type this sentence.) then don't play teen rated games and stick to general audience kid stuff please. so others do not have to bubblewrap your eyeballs.
or wrap your own character in a nun outfit.
I for one choose to embrace the female bodily autonomy and social independence that was won in the latter half of the 20th century and collectively tell everyone advocating for absolutely stupid things like no showing off legs!, no cleavage! on other peoples pixelated characters in a fantasy videogame to f*ck off.
Finally, someone gets its. This really has become a pointless argument about a VIDEOGAME. At the end of the day, the developers will do what they want to do and we'll play the game. Lets please end this pointless discussion and get back to suggestions of female armor.
jeez this is becoming less about the actual reason behind wanting the game changed and more a discussion on how the human body is marketed towards people and demographics in real life.
YES, DOCTORED IMAGES OF THE FEMALE FORM SUCKS. same for men. and you see them plastered all over Instagram and your Facebook feed showing off an unrealistic image.
it's a video game. these are PIXELS, its not a real person doctored to make them some goddess figure. it is a parody of the actual form of a woman.
And yet you're harping on about how showing a female image is cringe and somehow depraved god forbid it has too many of those little pixels.
people just want to look how they want. that's why people are yelling NO HORNS! in the py'rai thread and ADD THIS HAIR! in the haircut thread.
If you don't want to see the female form depicted with exposed pixels (holy shit, I laughed so hard even having to type this sentence.) then don't play teen rated games and stick to general audience kid stuff please. so others do not have to bubblewrap your eyeballs.
or wrap your own character in a nun outfit.
I for one choose to embrace the female bodily autonomy and social independence that was won in the latter half of the 20th century and collectively tell everyone advocating for absolutely stupid things like no showing off legs!, no cleavage! on other peoples pixelated characters in a fantasy videogame to f*ck off.
I'm actually really happy that you posted and I came across this comment, it makes me feel that I am not the only one with this opinion.
I am a female IRL and I really like more "feminine/form-fitting" types of armour styles, and yes, even high heels. I really like several of the more form-fitting/revealing styles in both @DFirehawkC and @caedwyn posts on page 6 in this thread.
Reading some of the posts from other users in this thread almost makes me think there's something wrong with me for liking these particular styles of armour.
I firmly believe that diversity and variation in armour/cosmetic styles in games is a good thing, and allows people to create characters that they like the look of to represent them. As long as there are options for both fully covering, non form-fitting (loose?), flat shoe/boots and then also more form-fitting, revealing, high-heel
shoe/boots etc. that people can choose between - then what is the problem? Although some people personally may not like one or the other style, why should others not be able to use them?
Please, feel more than welcome to explain how it would be a false equivalence if you're willing, last time i saw someone in this forum trying to disregard this part "that assumes that the absolute majority of gamers are sexist men because the majority of games catters to them as they are sizewise the main target audience of those type of games" and this "old adage" while screaming "Female Objetification" they went with the pathetic relativization of "Male objetification" being a mere "male power fantasy" which not only is also subjective but also is a complete joke of a relativization to be honest. I would also like to assure i'm always more than willing to change my mind through good arguments. ^^
Like I said in the post you responded to, it has, been explained before. In a thread you directly participated in no less. But since I could find it by just searching 'Nerror, Male' here you go.
I would argue it's not that there are fewer women playing games but that there are more male developers than female developers, and a whole lot of those developers were raised on the comic book style of drawing their characters. I saw an article or video a long time ago about it. It was a book that almost everyone who learned to do art in those circles had learned from at some point. I think it might have been this one: https://ratcreature.livejournal.com/175099.html Or one similar at least.
I agree with the last part though I just don't think hypersexualization fits the theme of the game at all.
As far as the comic book thing goes, I can't ever follow along with the "Oversexualized/unachievable" argument to design of characters in comics. Theyre meant to be unachievable and as a result desirable. The idea of the "realistic/everyday average looing" heroes is just narcissist's self inserting themselves as their own characters usually. Super is Super... not a typical or even optimal human being.
I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, and if so sorry. But super isn't just super in comic books. The male superheroes are not drawn in a sexual way. They are generally not sexy at all to women reading the comics. They are drawn to show big muscles and powerful poses.They don't have the full lips and eyes or facial expressions that the women are drawn with. The women are mostly drawn in sexualized poses with one purpose in mind: To show as much tits and ass as possible, to titillate all the teenage boys they believe will read the comics.
Anyway, I'm getting somewhat off topic now
Male superheroes are ridiculous oversexualized when compared to female superheroes. Female comic book superheroes have obtainable bodies. A guy is not going to obtain anywhere the amount of muscle that a male comic book character has. Most of the time the male super heroes are drawn with muscles where there should not be muscle.
No, that's not sexualization, that is about power. It is ridiculous yes, but sexy it's not, because it's not designed to be. Again, it's about a power fantasy. It is a pretty crucial difference actually.
A power fantasy in this context is designed to make guys think, “ooh, I want to be like that!” Well, or at least closer to that than they are now. I also agree it's often so over the top that it's stupid. One aspect of a male power fantasy is to make men believe that women find that sexy, so they'll have sex with the man. A lot of action movies and other media is trying hard to make you believe that, so I completely understand the misconception and confusion about this that a lot of guys have. I had it too when I was young. And sure there are exceptions of course, but they are just that... exceptions.
Sexualized women in comic books or video games are male sex fantasies. They are designed to make guys think, “ooh, I want to bang that!” as opposed to “ooh, I want to be like that!”. Generally speaking the women aren't drawn to show power and big muscles.
Try a little thought experiment. If big, muscly and powerful action heroes and super heroes are that oversexualized, why aren't more women into watching them? Women like sex, so if "sex sells", why do they prefer movies without those male power fantasies?
Reading some of the posts from other users in this thread almost makes me think there's something wrong with me for liking these particular styles of armour.
I tried to reign them in as best I could but people get stupidly tribal about it. I hope you were able to shake that feeling off sister. It's dumb internet kids with unnuanced takes and your perspective is clearly valid and nuanced..
Reading some of the posts from other users in this thread almost makes me think there's something wrong with me for liking these particular styles of armour.
I tried to reign them in as best I could but people get stupidly tribal about it. I hope you were able to shake that feeling off sister. It's dumb internet kids with unnuanced takes and your perspective is clearly valid and nuanced..
You seem to talk out both sides of your mouth. That was the point I was trying to make earlier but somehow you made it about feminism and all the blah associated with it which almost no one here cares for. This post started with suggestions about armor that accentuated the female body more without being bikini armor. I, along with a few others, posted some suggestions we thought were good while not objectifying women. Of course it was liked and disliked by some, which was normal....but then all the extra unnecessary argument was added. You didn't reign anyone in, just seemed to add more fuel to the fire, illustrated by your use of words "dumb internet kids." I highly doubt you know everyones age here so for you do say that is further adding insults when there doesn't need to be any. I guess your take is that anyone that disagrees with you is a "dumb internet kid." You are also one of the ones using "thot" to describe clothes that are more revealing than you would prefer. You are also one to comment on high heels ruining many armors/outfits based on your own style preferences. So if anything, your comments have contributed to @Nelirya feeling the way she does. It would probably be best to reign in your own comments instead of worrying about others.
Oh? Please point to my comments I need to reign in.
Heres direct quotes from your comments:
As a woman, given what we have seen from pre-order packs I am not worried. There are so many women in vocal positions at Intrepid and it shows in the costume concepts. I'm appreciating the lack of sexualization in armor sets and the general stylishness of them. If I want to look pretty give me a good costume. I have buckets of other games for when I want to wear 'thot' armor.
But in the end I personally don't mind having both in a game. It's just that when you have both the demand for the 'thot' armor goes up drastically compared to the nonsexualized and the devs rightfully make the business decision to invest in the cosmetics that sell best. Intrepid is already taking a stance by saying no in the first place. It's harder to resist greed when the results are more tangible. But hey if they did manage to 'keep producing both types despite that' more of my money to them.
…….
Yeah the first image is pretty close to 'thot' armor. I wouldn't say it quite cross my threshold though so you wouldn't get complaints from me if ashes added something similar, though the left (her right) chest piece on the female would look /better/ and slightly further from my personal 'line' imo if there was more cover where the armor already is. My actual complaint with the picture is the female models proportions aren't anatomically correct. But art is hard and it isn't /that/ far off, just very slighty too thin a waist.
……..
The second picture looks cool to me.
We can both agree Terra cosmetics are 'a bit much' and I say that as someone who does like a lot of even BDO's 'thot' level stuff.
Yeah I think the second one is by far my bias showing the strongest. Sorry if it sounded like I was nitpicking too hard I just have extremely specific opinions on a lot of aspects about cosmetics. I can get a little overfocused when giving my opinion. Other than the pirate one I generally agree with you irt them not being 'thot' level. We definitely have slightly different thresholds it sounds like, but not irreconcilable.
…..
Many a good Korean mmo costume ruined by high heel only footwear.
Oh? Please point to my comments I need to reign in.
Heres direct quotes from your comments:
As a woman, given what we have seen from pre-order packs I am not worried. There are so many women in vocal positions at Intrepid and it shows in the costume concepts. I'm appreciating the lack of sexualization in armor sets and the general stylishness of them. If I want to look pretty give me a good costume. I have buckets of other games for when I want to wear 'thot' armor.
But in the end I personally don't mind having both in a game. It's just that when you have both the demand for the 'thot' armor goes up drastically compared to the nonsexualized and the devs rightfully make the business decision to invest in the cosmetics that sell best. Intrepid is already taking a stance by saying no in the first place. It's harder to resist greed when the results are more tangible. But hey if they did manage to 'keep producing both types despite that' more of my money to them.
…….
Yeah the first image is pretty close to 'thot' armor. I wouldn't say it quite cross my threshold though so you wouldn't get complaints from me if ashes added something similar, though the left (her right) chest piece on the female would look /better/ and slightly further from my personal 'line' imo if there was more cover where the armor already is. My actual complaint with the picture is the female models proportions aren't anatomically correct. But art is hard and it isn't /that/ far off, just very slighty too thin a waist.
……..
The second picture looks cool to me.
We can both agree Terra cosmetics are 'a bit much' and I say that as someone who does like a lot of even BDO's 'thot' level stuff.
Yeah I think the second one is by far my bias showing the strongest. Sorry if it sounded like I was nitpicking too hard I just have extremely specific opinions on a lot of aspects about cosmetics. I can get a little overfocused when giving my opinion. Other than the pirate one I generally agree with you irt them not being 'thot' level. We definitely have slightly different thresholds it sounds like, but not irreconcilable.
…..
Other people were using the terminology in other discussions. I was using their wording to 'go down to their level and have a more relatable discussion' .
I find words like 'bimbo' and 'thot' extremely childish, but sometimes that just the language other people use. I do consider people trying to brow beat others to make someone like Nelirya to feel invalid in their opinion 'internet children' no matter what their age is.
I don't feel like arguing with every single time someone uses a word that offends me when it isn't malevolently intentioned when there is a clearer discourse to be had. If I were paid to police other's language, I probably would.
So other than one word useage, which I wasn't using in a derogatory manner at all, what about the above do you perceive needs 'reigning in'. Those were examples of me being quite nuanced and trying to have genuine discourse to me. So you'll have to clarify what about them is offensive.
Many a good Korean mmo costume ruined by high heel only footwear.
If you are allowed to express your pleasure towards heels, I am allowed to express my displeasure. As I noted in a previous comment, it effects rigging and modeling to my knowledge which is why I am mainly against it. If heels aren't the default, their inclusion in some outfits isn't a problem to me.
I firmly believe that diversity and variation in armour/cosmetic styles in games is a good thing, and allows people to create characters that they like the look of to represent them. As long as there are options for both fully covering, non form-fitting (loose?), flat shoe/boots and then also more form-fitting, revealing, high-heel
shoe/boots etc. that people can choose between - then what is the problem? Although some people personally may not like one or the other style, why should others not be able to use them?
Please. this is all I want. (I think bikini armor looks ridiculous myself) but I'd love my mage to have a form fitting dress that god forbid shows a thigh or something like an Indian 2 piece sari where there's a visible belly-button.
everyone has their own opinion of what looks good and that style is what I like.
If you need to go down to their level to make a point, there's no point in making it. By doing so, you run the risk of offending others or others seeing your posts and misconstruing your words and thus missing the point you are trying to make. The way you use it in your posts implies that you agree with the term being used for the description of said armor piece. I can't really view what you say in your posts any other way. Not to mention, the word "thot" or "bimbo" are derogatory terms to begin with. You don't have to mean it in a derogatory way for them to be offensive. There are many ways to bring out your point in a way thats understandable without having to use the same terms. With your intellect, I'm sure its easy.
As for the high heels, you are right....you can state your opinion just like anybody else. But as others have posted earlier, its more about having the choice. For those who want it, its there, for those who don't, there are other options.
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Options
CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Like I said in the post you responded to, it has, been explained before. In a thread you directly participated in no less. But since I could find it by just searching 'Nerror, Male' here you go.
Oh, i see, it's funny that it's literally the comment i referred to that was trying to subjectly relativize "male objectification" with "male power fantasy" that neglects the question of why even if over exaggerated through the medium does it "make guys think, “ooh, I want to be like that!”.
Btw, sorry for going a bit off track out of the main point of the thread folks , i got a bit too interested in Caeryl's outrage towards DFirehawkC's female armors suggestions(which i liked the majority), sadly i find myself still unable to comprehend what exactly warranted such outrage other than Caeryl's personal distaste.
Btw, sorry for going a bit off track out of the main point of the thread folks , i got a bit too interested in Caeryl's outrage towards DFirehawkC's female armors suggestions(which i liked the majority), sadly i find myself still unable to comprehend what exactly warranted such outrage other than Caeryl's personal distaste.
No problem. That's a normal human response isn't it?
Like I said in the post you responded to, it has, been explained before. In a thread you directly participated in no less. But since I could find it by just searching 'Nerror, Male' here you go.
Oh, i see, it's funny that it's literally the comment i referred to that was trying to subjectly relativize "male objectification" with "male power fantasy" that neglects the question of why even if over exaggerated through the medium does it "make guys think, “ooh, I want to be like that!”.
Right and honestly I don't mind the fact that you don't understand why Nerror is correct there. You having that reaction doesn't change my (positive) opinion of you.
I think you are good faith enough person when debating generally, that the reason your reaction is what it is, is because understanding why is really philosophical and requires having a strong background in the philosophical discourse society has done during the various waves of the feminist movement and a large amount of either lived experience or awareness of other people's situations.
If you /really/ want to learn the fundamentals of why I think I would be willing to walk through it with you in pm. But it's a lot of work and secondly requires scholarly reading. I only offer it to you out of general respect for you if you had enough interest for it to be 'worth spending my time'. But this particular thread as you can see from several people here's emotional responses is probably not the best platform.
If you need to go down to their level to make a point, there's no point in making it.
I think Cypher and I are the only people allowed to make that judgment as it was our conversation. Not you.
By doing so, you run the risk of offending others or others seeing your posts and misconstruing your words and thus missing the point you are trying to make. The way you use it in your posts implies that you agree with the term being used for the description of said armor piece. I can't really view what you say in your posts any other way. Not to mention, the word "thot" or "bimbo" are derogatory terms to begin with.
And I used 'thot armor' in a positive context relative to my own preference at one point. You are right. It is derogatory. I will happily never use it again if it is part of the code of conduct everyone must follow. But quite frankly plenty of people use much worse language with much more malicious intent on this forum. I will make my own calls on when to risk using such a diplomatic tactic as using other people's vernacular when it isn't maliciously intended thank you very much.
You don't have to mean it in a derogatory way for them to be offensive. There are many ways to bring out your point in a way thats understandable without having to use the same terms. With your intellect, I'm sure its easy.
Did I hurt your feelings? You have my genuine apologies if so. But I doubt it.
As for the high heels, you are right....you can state your opinion just like anybody else. But as others have posted earlier, its more about having the choice. For those who want it, its there, for those who don't, there are other options.
You literally posted a quote from me making that exact argument, which I have been consistent on from the very beginning. Is there a reason you feel a need to repeat my own words to me?
Some of this thread has been very interesting to read through. Especially with examples!
However, some of this thread has also been not awesome to read through.
I'd love it if we could steer this back to a more productive conversation! Having differing opinions is what the forums are all about. However, our forums are also all about being well unto one another ^_^
What are some armor sets that we've shown that you like and dislike, and what do you like and dislike about them?
Right and honestly I don't mind the fact that you don't understand why Nerror is correct there. You having that reaction doesn't change my (positive) opinion of you.
God, how much i wish it was only a matter of "not understanding" and not just a subjective relativization through ideological lens.
I appreciate your positive opinion about me tho, because i certainly also hold a positive opinion about you.
I think you are good faith enough person when debating generally, that the reason your reaction is what it is, is because understanding why is really philosophical and requires having a strong background in the philosophical discourse society has done during the various waves of the feminist movement and a large amount of either lived experience or awareness of other people's situations.
What a coincidence, I also think you are good faith enough person when debating generally, and even tho i'm not sure, the reason you might be misunderstanding my point might possible be a lack of psychological and anthropologial reasoning which would require a fairly strong background in said areas.
If you /really/ want to learn the fundamentals of why I think I would be willing to walk through it with you in pm. But it's a lot of work and secondly requires scholarly reading. I only offer it to you out of general respect for you if you had enough interest for it to be 'worth spending my time'. But this particular thread as you can see from several people here's emotional responses is probably not the best platform.
I'm pretty interested in those fundamentals, but please don't feel compelled to do so just out of general respect for me, just do so if genuinely willing to do it. Let's not maim the thread further.
I'm pretty interested in those fundamentals, but please don't feel compelled to do so just out of general respect for me, just do so if genuinely willing to do it. Let's not maim the thread further.
Some of this thread has been very interesting to read through. Especially with examples!
However, some of this thread has also been not awesome to read through.
I'd love it if we could steer this back to a more productive conversation! Having differing opinions is what the forums are all about. However, our forums are also all about being well unto one another ^_^
What are some armor sets that we've shown that you like and dislike, and what do you like and dislike about them?
Ye make it a rule that when it comes to forum pvp people are only allowed to repeat the same stuff only once.
People fill pages upon pages trying to prove that only their view is legitimate and the rest of us have to dig through *** to get back on track with topics.
cloth - leather - metal, the cloth wearers are generally understood to have imbued cloth armor for protection making any of the above plausible in a fantasy setting
Anything that looks like a long evening gown is a big no thanks for me, when it comes to armor. Anything much below the knees, other than pants/leg armor and boots, is just stupid. Maybe if it's one of those dresses that are actually split in the middle like pants, allowing for free movement, but still looks like a dress. Or where the sides of the dress are open, allowing free movement that way.
I am a big fan of Lagertha's armors from that Vikings series, from an aesthetic point of view.
She wore a long skirt at one point I think, and armor on top, but that wasn't specifically for going into battle IIRC. When she was raiding she wore pants.
"if you're going to have armor, it should be protective. I think from a fashion statement is enjoyable for some people, but it's a kind of an immersive issue.[9] – Steven Sharif
We're going for kind of a more realistic look; not necessarily realistic setting, but we want our characters to have weight and kind of feel like they're there.[9] – Jeffrey Bard
Yet when the game launches I can choose from one of multiple pretty princess dress cosmetics I've already bought... none of which are practical for combat.
Idk why there can't be pretty, feminine, flattering clothing/cosmetic OPTIONS in the game. Obviously the standard armor sets should look cool and functional, but idk why everyone acts like its a sin to include SOME skimpy clothing/armor OPTIONS, especially because as a veteran MMO player with mostly female friends I can confidently say that most of them enjoy said revealing armor sets.
There's PLENTY of "non practical" yet covered cosmetics already out, like Fishermen garb, etc. and I see 0 people raising the concern that they aren't practical for combat.
Also I keep seeing people say "Steven said there won't be any" YET on one of the last few livestreams he was specifically asked about this IIRC and he said there would be cosmetic options and that some already exist from monthly packs, so clearly he is not as averse to it as he earlier quote that you guys spam make him seem.
The issue arises when it's ONLY skimpy oversexualized impractical armor for female characters. Because then the game is clearly oversexualizing the female characters to fit the male gaze. Especially when all the male armor is super big and fully covered. I'd also argue that offering no feminine/more revealing options at all is also bad, as it restricts expression and customization for female players who want to dress their toon that way. The important thing is options. And it's ok if most of the options are functional and realistic, as long as the other ones still exist. WoW is like that IMO, there's only like a few dozen armor sets that actually show off skin, while the rest are mostly covered. But having those handful of other choices is very nice.
Also for RP purposes. My character is an Elvish mystic seer who is going to live in a tree cottage outside of a node and sew clothes which she will have her animal-summons bring in to town to sell. She is going to be adept at using the stars to tell the future to passing travelers, and a practitioner of healing magic. I want her to be able to dress in pretty/casual/formal dresses etc., not always be stuck in big bulky armor. Because we aren't always going to be in combat in this game.
I'm genuinely so tired of seeing tons of men on this forum/the discord explaining why it's bad to have skimpy armor in game...feels too much like IRL
"if you're going to have armor, it should be protective. I think from a fashion statement is enjoyable for some people, but it's a kind of an immersive issue.[9] – Steven Sharif
We're going for kind of a more realistic look; not necessarily realistic setting, but we want our characters to have weight and kind of feel like they're there.[9] – Jeffrey Bard
Yet when the game launches I can choose from one of multiple pretty princess dress cosmetics I've already bought... none of which are practical for combat.
Idk why there can't be pretty, feminine, flattering clothing/cosmetic OPTIONS in the game. Obviously the standard armor sets should look cool and functional, but idk why everyone acts like its a sin to include SOME skimpy clothing/armor OPTIONS, especially because as a veteran MMO player with mostly female friends I can confidently say that most of them enjoy said revealing armor sets.
Also I keep seeing people say "Steven said there won't be any" YET on one of the last few livestreams he was specifically asked about this IIRC and he said there would be cosmetic options and that some already exist from monthly packs, so clearly he is not as averse to it as he earlier quote that you guys spam make him seem.
The issue arises when it's ONLY skimpy oversexualized impractical armor for female characters. Because then the game is clearly oversexualizing the female characters to fit the male gaze. Especially when all the male armor is super big and fully covered. I'd also argue that offering no feminine/more revealing options at all is also bad, as it restricts expression and customization for female players who want to dress their toon that way. The important thing is options. And it's ok if most of the options are functional and realistic, as long as the other ones still exist. WoW is like that IMO, there's only like a few dozen armor sets that actually show off skin, while the rest are mostly covered. But having those handful of other choices is very nice.
I'm genuinely so tired of seeing tons of men on this forum/the discord explaining why it's bad to have skimpy armor in game...feels too much like IRL
Nice. As if there isnt tiktok instagram and onlyfans, the morality of AoC armor design will change the world.
And then there is the arguements that "it's not immersive" while will ride lions and sharks.
People want both prude and sexy female armors. Some for the perv others because it makes them feel pretty. There will be both.
Comments
Very interesting covers, maybe i would call them a bit nitpicky?
Would you please have a look at these following magazines?
They are currently and have been for quite a while the ones most read by women(Cosmopolitan) and men(Men's Health), do you notice something?
Aren't we all sinners?
YES, DOCTORED IMAGES OF THE FEMALE FORM SUCKS. same for men. and you see them plastered all over Instagram and your Facebook feed showing off an unrealistic image.
it's a video game. these are PIXELS, its not a real person doctored to make them some goddess figure. it is a parody of the actual form of a woman.
And yet you're harping on about how showing a female image is cringe and somehow depraved god forbid it has too many of those little pixels.
people just want to look how they want. that's why people are yelling NO HORNS! in the py'rai thread and ADD THIS HAIR! in the haircut thread.
If you don't want to see the female form depicted with exposed pixels (holy shit, I laughed so hard even having to type this sentence.) then don't play teen rated games and stick to general audience kid stuff please. so others do not have to bubblewrap your eyeballs.
or wrap your own character in a nun outfit.
I for one choose to embrace the female bodily autonomy and social independence that was won in the latter half of the 20th century and collectively tell everyone advocating for absolutely stupid things like no showing off legs!, no cleavage! on other peoples pixelated characters in a fantasy videogame to f*ck off.
Finally, someone gets its. This really has become a pointless argument about a VIDEOGAME. At the end of the day, the developers will do what they want to do and we'll play the game. Lets please end this pointless discussion and get back to suggestions of female armor.
It can be difficult to get horns when your female toon starts to look more Ent-Like and less Nymph like.
I'm actually really happy that you posted and I came across this comment, it makes me feel that I am not the only one with this opinion.
I am a female IRL and I really like more "feminine/form-fitting" types of armour styles, and yes, even high heels. I really like several of the more form-fitting/revealing styles in both @DFirehawkC and @caedwyn posts on page 6 in this thread.
Reading some of the posts from other users in this thread almost makes me think there's something wrong with me for liking these particular styles of armour.
I firmly believe that diversity and variation in armour/cosmetic styles in games is a good thing, and allows people to create characters that they like the look of to represent them. As long as there are options for both fully covering, non form-fitting (loose?), flat shoe/boots and then also more form-fitting, revealing, high-heel
shoe/boots etc. that people can choose between - then what is the problem? Although some people personally may not like one or the other style, why should others not be able to use them?
Like I said in the post you responded to, it has, been explained before. In a thread you directly participated in no less. But since I could find it by just searching 'Nerror, Male' here you go.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
I tried to reign them in as best I could but people get stupidly tribal about it. I hope you were able to shake that feeling off sister. It's dumb internet kids with unnuanced takes and your perspective is clearly valid and nuanced..
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
You seem to talk out both sides of your mouth. That was the point I was trying to make earlier but somehow you made it about feminism and all the blah associated with it which almost no one here cares for. This post started with suggestions about armor that accentuated the female body more without being bikini armor. I, along with a few others, posted some suggestions we thought were good while not objectifying women. Of course it was liked and disliked by some, which was normal....but then all the extra unnecessary argument was added. You didn't reign anyone in, just seemed to add more fuel to the fire, illustrated by your use of words "dumb internet kids." I highly doubt you know everyones age here so for you do say that is further adding insults when there doesn't need to be any. I guess your take is that anyone that disagrees with you is a "dumb internet kid." You are also one of the ones using "thot" to describe clothes that are more revealing than you would prefer. You are also one to comment on high heels ruining many armors/outfits based on your own style preferences. So if anything, your comments have contributed to @Nelirya feeling the way she does. It would probably be best to reign in your own comments instead of worrying about others.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Heres direct quotes from your comments:
As a woman, given what we have seen from pre-order packs I am not worried. There are so many women in vocal positions at Intrepid and it shows in the costume concepts. I'm appreciating the lack of sexualization in armor sets and the general stylishness of them. If I want to look pretty give me a good costume. I have buckets of other games for when I want to wear 'thot' armor.
But in the end I personally don't mind having both in a game. It's just that when you have both the demand for the 'thot' armor goes up drastically compared to the nonsexualized and the devs rightfully make the business decision to invest in the cosmetics that sell best. Intrepid is already taking a stance by saying no in the first place. It's harder to resist greed when the results are more tangible. But hey if they did manage to 'keep producing both types despite that' more of my money to them.
…….
Yeah the first image is pretty close to 'thot' armor. I wouldn't say it quite cross my threshold though so you wouldn't get complaints from me if ashes added something similar, though the left (her right) chest piece on the female would look /better/ and slightly further from my personal 'line' imo if there was more cover where the armor already is. My actual complaint with the picture is the female models proportions aren't anatomically correct. But art is hard and it isn't /that/ far off, just very slighty too thin a waist.
……..
The second picture looks cool to me.
We can both agree Terra cosmetics are 'a bit much' and I say that as someone who does like a lot of even BDO's 'thot' level stuff.
Yeah I think the second one is by far my bias showing the strongest. Sorry if it sounded like I was nitpicking too hard I just have extremely specific opinions on a lot of aspects about cosmetics. I can get a little overfocused when giving my opinion. Other than the pirate one I generally agree with you irt them not being 'thot' level. We definitely have slightly different thresholds it sounds like, but not irreconcilable.
…..
Many a good Korean mmo costume ruined by high heel only footwear.
So yeah, please reign in.
Other people were using the terminology in other discussions. I was using their wording to 'go down to their level and have a more relatable discussion' .
I find words like 'bimbo' and 'thot' extremely childish, but sometimes that just the language other people use. I do consider people trying to brow beat others to make someone like Nelirya to feel invalid in their opinion 'internet children' no matter what their age is.
I don't feel like arguing with every single time someone uses a word that offends me when it isn't malevolently intentioned when there is a clearer discourse to be had. If I were paid to police other's language, I probably would.
So other than one word useage, which I wasn't using in a derogatory manner at all, what about the above do you perceive needs 'reigning in'. Those were examples of me being quite nuanced and trying to have genuine discourse to me. So you'll have to clarify what about them is offensive.
If you are allowed to express your pleasure towards heels, I am allowed to express my displeasure. As I noted in a previous comment, it effects rigging and modeling to my knowledge which is why I am mainly against it. If heels aren't the default, their inclusion in some outfits isn't a problem to me.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Please. this is all I want. (I think bikini armor looks ridiculous myself) but I'd love my mage to have a form fitting dress that god forbid shows a thigh or something like an Indian 2 piece sari where there's a visible belly-button.
everyone has their own opinion of what looks good and that style is what I like.
As for the high heels, you are right....you can state your opinion just like anybody else. But as others have posted earlier, its more about having the choice. For those who want it, its there, for those who don't, there are other options.
1 - how ‘bout no.
2 - my wife and plenty other female friends also want the armors you’re so vehemently afraid of. Go touch grass.
I would love my Py'Rai to look similar to the image above minus the bow.
Oh, i see, it's funny that it's literally the comment i referred to that was trying to subjectly relativize "male objectification" with "male power fantasy" that neglects the question of why even if over exaggerated through the medium does it "make guys think, “ooh, I want to be like that!”.
Aren't we all sinners?
Aren't we all sinners?
No problem. That's a normal human response isn't it?
Right and honestly I don't mind the fact that you don't understand why Nerror is correct there. You having that reaction doesn't change my (positive) opinion of you.
I think you are good faith enough person when debating generally, that the reason your reaction is what it is, is because understanding why is really philosophical and requires having a strong background in the philosophical discourse society has done during the various waves of the feminist movement and a large amount of either lived experience or awareness of other people's situations.
If you /really/ want to learn the fundamentals of why I think I would be willing to walk through it with you in pm. But it's a lot of work and secondly requires scholarly reading. I only offer it to you out of general respect for you if you had enough interest for it to be 'worth spending my time'. But this particular thread as you can see from several people here's emotional responses is probably not the best platform.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
I think Cypher and I are the only people allowed to make that judgment as it was our conversation. Not you.
And I used 'thot armor' in a positive context relative to my own preference at one point. You are right. It is derogatory. I will happily never use it again if it is part of the code of conduct everyone must follow. But quite frankly plenty of people use much worse language with much more malicious intent on this forum. I will make my own calls on when to risk using such a diplomatic tactic as using other people's vernacular when it isn't maliciously intended thank you very much.
Did I hurt your feelings? You have my genuine apologies if so. But I doubt it.
You literally posted a quote from me making that exact argument, which I have been consistent on from the very beginning. Is there a reason you feel a need to repeat my own words to me?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
However, some of this thread has also been not awesome to read through.
I'd love it if we could steer this back to a more productive conversation! Having differing opinions is what the forums are all about. However, our forums are also all about being well unto one another ^_^
What are some armor sets that we've shown that you like and dislike, and what do you like and dislike about them?
Sure, maybe a "normal human a bit too emotionally invested in the topic" response i suppose.
God, how much i wish it was only a matter of "not understanding" and not just a subjective relativization through ideological lens.
I appreciate your positive opinion about me tho, because i certainly also hold a positive opinion about you.
What a coincidence, I also think you are good faith enough person when debating generally, and even tho i'm not sure, the reason you might be misunderstanding my point might possible be a lack of psychological and anthropologial reasoning which would require a fairly strong background in said areas.
I'm pretty interested in those fundamentals, but please don't feel compelled to do so just out of general respect for me, just do so if genuinely willing to do it. Let's not maim the thread further.
Aren't we all sinners?
Lol, right?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Ye make it a rule that when it comes to forum pvp people are only allowed to repeat the same stuff only once.
People fill pages upon pages trying to prove that only their view is legitimate and the rest of us have to dig through *** to get back on track with topics.
Some real world examples of cloth armor I'd like to see. (And a black Cape. I just think its a really nice idea having one with a collar like that.)
The top right image stirs my soul and the third from bottom stirs my heart
I am a big fan of Lagertha's armors from that Vikings series, from an aesthetic point of view.
She wore a long skirt at one point I think, and armor on top, but that wasn't specifically for going into battle IIRC. When she was raiding she wore pants.
Yet when the game launches I can choose from one of multiple pretty princess dress cosmetics I've already bought... none of which are practical for combat.
Idk why there can't be pretty, feminine, flattering clothing/cosmetic OPTIONS in the game. Obviously the standard armor sets should look cool and functional, but idk why everyone acts like its a sin to include SOME skimpy clothing/armor OPTIONS, especially because as a veteran MMO player with mostly female friends I can confidently say that most of them enjoy said revealing armor sets.
There's PLENTY of "non practical" yet covered cosmetics already out, like Fishermen garb, etc. and I see 0 people raising the concern that they aren't practical for combat.
Also I keep seeing people say "Steven said there won't be any" YET on one of the last few livestreams he was specifically asked about this IIRC and he said there would be cosmetic options and that some already exist from monthly packs, so clearly he is not as averse to it as he earlier quote that you guys spam make him seem.
The issue arises when it's ONLY skimpy oversexualized impractical armor for female characters. Because then the game is clearly oversexualizing the female characters to fit the male gaze. Especially when all the male armor is super big and fully covered. I'd also argue that offering no feminine/more revealing options at all is also bad, as it restricts expression and customization for female players who want to dress their toon that way. The important thing is options. And it's ok if most of the options are functional and realistic, as long as the other ones still exist. WoW is like that IMO, there's only like a few dozen armor sets that actually show off skin, while the rest are mostly covered. But having those handful of other choices is very nice.
Also for RP purposes. My character is an Elvish mystic seer who is going to live in a tree cottage outside of a node and sew clothes which she will have her animal-summons bring in to town to sell. She is going to be adept at using the stars to tell the future to passing travelers, and a practitioner of healing magic. I want her to be able to dress in pretty/casual/formal dresses etc., not always be stuck in big bulky armor. Because we aren't always going to be in combat in this game.
I'm genuinely so tired of seeing tons of men on this forum/the discord explaining why it's bad to have skimpy armor in game...feels too much like IRL
Nice. As if there isnt tiktok instagram and onlyfans, the morality of AoC armor design will change the world.
And then there is the arguements that "it's not immersive" while will ride lions and sharks.
People want both prude and sexy female armors. Some for the perv others because it makes them feel pretty. There will be both.