The nice thing is that Intrepid doesn't have to do anything.
If you want to play alts, go ahead.
If you want to be hard core and only have 1 character, go ahead. If you want to play a different class, go ahead. Just delete the one you have and roll another one up.
I absolutely think that there is a good chance Steven hasn't thought about this idea
The most recent MMO Steven spent time playing in great length was Archeage.
This is a game that allows players to level each class individually.
This is the game he was playing when he was working though most of the ideas in Ashes.
So this idea absolutely would have been thought about, and has been discarded.
The reason it was disgarded (as far as I can see) is that Steven wants player choice to be a real factor in Ashes. A system whereby you can be any class you want demeans the choice you make as to which class you are.
Now, I am the first person to say that the fact that a thing has been decided is no reason to not continue to discuss and debate the idea - and I see no reason at all why that wouldn't be the case here.
However, if you are going to debate in regards to a system that has already been considered and designed around, you would need to take on every potential effect this change could have.
One of the key decisions in the game for players is in relation to social and religious organizations the player will join. Each character on your account can (as far as I can tell) join a different organization based on their particular preference.
If the game were to change to characters being able to play all classes, it would then behoove Intrepid to make all such organizations equally suitable to all potential classes. This would make all such organizations a whole lot more "same-y", and thus reduce the impact of player decisions even further.
Also, in a situation where players can play all classes on one character, they only need to level one of these organizations once - and due to the need for these organizations to be somewhat equally rewarding to all classes, that is all the time and effort that player needs to put in to organizations and religion.
In the game as it stands now, each character needs to level up an organization and religion that is only applicable to that one character, and so each character would have an organization and religion selected for them and then would be leveled up independently of the other characters on the account. Since these organizations are able to be distinct due to not needed to cater to all classes, these different organizations and religions can now have their leveling content designed uniquely distinct from the other religions and organizations.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@PlagueMonk hypothetically I make three characters: character 1 is a tank/miner, 2 is a cleric/smelter, 3 is a dps/blacksmith. I can now circumvent profession interdependence and fill multiple combat roles any time I want by switching between alts, how does a well designed class changing mechanic exacerbate the issue that already exists?
Well you appear to have the basic metallurgy side covered but who is going to make your armor and weapons? And what about cooking? I assume you will want those food buffs. What about sailing? You will still need someone to build all your boats. What about Jewelry making? You will need those trinket stat bonuses no? And I haven't even mentioned them all.
So if you want to be truly independent in crafting it's going to take many more than just 3 buy why when you could sell/trade what you are good at to someone else for what you are lacking? And there we have the need for a player driven economy with everyone working together (just like it real life ) Yes, you CAN do it all yourself but it will be a hell of a lot of work.
I think you are confusing the issue. The point is that my system isn't creating new problems. Any issue that my system has already is an issue. People creating 64 alts to master every class and every profession is going to happen. Its only a matter of time. Is that a problem? No its not. Its just the nature of hardcore gamers. No lifers need more to challenge and entertain them because they have more time to invest and that is what makes them happy. The fact is that none of this matters. People who organize will blow the lone wolves out of the water. Everyone gets to play the way they want to play and be happy with their amazing gaming experience. As long an idea isn't hurting anyone then there is no problem
The problem is your desire will trivialize a core tenant of the game which is choices matter and also the entire game design for players and nodes.
Alts are somewhat passively encouraged due to the necessity of leveling up a new character and experiencing the content entirely different in a different light via the node systems entire design philosophy. Since you would be building that character from the ground up you would need things differently, play the content in probably new and different ways, have different desires for that character and end up influencing and joining different areas of the world to change.
Even allowing your suggestion as an option would be massively detrimental to the games life span and population/player retention health since people will almost always take the path of least resistance. If you dont have to do anything new or different why should you? Why should anyone? It trivializes content, progression, and player interaction simply to play the game faster for you. Which actually incorporates P2w elements.
There is a certain economy around leveling alts that FF14's system completely removes. I think the need to make multiple characters in MMO's is just fun. Having alts puts more roles into the world so that you are more likely to find a healer, tank, bard, etc. Without removing the character value of alts.
I do think achievements shouldn't be character based though. It's one thing WoW always did that i wish they never did and that would be better if it was account based. It gives a feeling of redoing stuff you don't want to redo. It doesn't make sense technically and is just a gameplay consideration, but I don't like chasing achievements for every single character you make when the playable content is over 5000 hours.
So I agree that some things should at least have the option of being account wide. However, tying your base archetype to a changeable thing is too far. Alts are generally important and shouldn't be overlooked. They also change unfair situations you would otherwise be permanently stuck in.
It gives a feeling of redoing stuff you don't want to redo. It doesn't make sense technically and is just a gameplay consideration
Honestly, this is an alien concept to me.
I never go out of my way to get achievements on my main, so I can't see any reason to do so on an alt. Achievements are - to me - nothing more than the developers attempting to keep players in the game for a longer period of time than they would otherwise, but in a way where the developers don't ahve to make actual content.
You kill the hardest raid encounter in the game, and the developer dangles an achievement with a timer, or with no deaths, or with both - or with some other arbitrary encounter specific condition. That right there keeps a good number of guilds busy for a good amount of time, basically the developer dangling a shiny object to keep kids amused for a few minutes.
This means the developers don't need to develop actual new content at nearly the same pace as they would have to do without these pointless achievements. The players have a shiny-but-pointless thing to keep them occupied.
I like doing the achievements on a main when available because they are fun things to collect. They add gameplay value where it would otherwise not exist. As long as the achievements are somewhat meaningful. No one wants an achievement to up your node up a level. If they are meaningful mile stones they are quite fun.
This is assuming there will be achievements at all. I'd prefer if there were just no achievements personally. Because I don't want to feel like I have to collect them. I will go after them if they are there, but I will play however I want without them. I'd rather my choices just matter.
I'd prefer if there were just no achievements personally.
As would I.
If achievements can't be linked, then all they do is function as a reward to the player for doing a thing in the game. Personally, I think the act of doing that thing should reward the player with enough of a reward as to not need the achievement on top of it.
If achievements can be linked, they become required for people to accept you in to groups, raids and guilds - it is one of the things that actually divides a playerbase, rather than being a thing that some people think divides a playerbase.
So really, I see no actual benefit to them other than to provide that shiny thing to keep players distracted while the developers spend too long making the next content dump.
Because I don't want to play an alt. Why would I want to segregate and dilute all of my accomplishments by spreading that thinly across countless characters when they can allow me to carry all of it through one story on one character. I only want one identity. I am a die hard roleplayer and the thought of having my accomplishments spread thinly across alts and accounts seems like a sad waste.
I assume by "accomplishments" you are referring to achievements. The only other thing I can think you could mean are other players being aware of what you have done in game - which would be dealt with just fine with a surname system that is account wide.
As to achievements - it is more common these days for achievements to be linked to accounts, rather than to characters.
So I am not sure what the issue is here - it is either something that is already dealt with, or something that is already dealt with.
I would certainly like to vouch for a Surname system given that if we were to make alts (if at all) I feel that the achievments/badges/banks and other mechanics would suffer due to the fact someone could mule their way into a position and make it harder for other players to truly enjoy the game. Competition is good when it comes to PVP but from a PvE perspective we don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot and create a false perspective that perfectionism pays off. Other MMORPGS did that and the communities pay for it with its toxicity, Ashes I am sure will find a way to attempt to balance issues as they arise.
There is a certain economy around leveling alts that FF14's system completely removes. I think the need to make multiple characters in MMO's is just fun. Having alts puts more roles into the world so that you are more likely to find a healer, tank, bard, etc. Without removing the character value of alts.
So I agree that some things should at least have the option of being account wide. However, tying your base archetype to a changeable thing is too far. Alts are generally important and shouldn't be overlooked. They also change unfair situations you would otherwise be permanently stuck in.
Again how is it taking it too far? You have to put in exactly the same amount of hours. More roles in to the world?that is also something that will happen with subclass system with excactly the same way.
If YOU think making alts is fun you can keep creating those. Subclass system is not removing alts.
There is one thing that I can think could be effected by this which alts might not get as easily as subclass would.
Clan benefits.
As fitting all your alts to one clan with high level benefits might be an issue if there is small player limit. Thus your alts wont be as strong as ypur main.
Alts are a double edged sword in some cases. In a game that takes a lot of time to level, you hope that you chose your class/profession right the first time and you may want to test others to see if they are a better fit if you aren't 100% happy but it can feel punishing. The same kind of punishment as if you could have several alts and you feel the need to upkeep them just to maintain a certain quality of life (like having all the professions maxed and specialized).
I think they want you to be the character you choose in the world with a more permanent feel. They want an economy and community that work together. Having alts (or at least too many) can mess up the markets and make things easier for gold farmers and such. Or on the combat side since fast travelling isn't a thing really, you could have 1 character in different parts of the map building up other nodes or ready to raid or pvp that could add to zerging that they have stated they are against. You should be able to find other classes or professions to help you out instead of having to do it all yourself and your contribution to content should feel meaningful, which can feel diluted with alts.
Then there are people that just want to collect or min/max everything and that is the joy for them. More power to them but I don't think that is the core of what they have planned for this game and I don't think every game should cater to everyone.
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SpartanzMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Im 99% behind this idea, and I'll go into why, and even give examples
#1 Runescape. Games that allow you to master everything, with no shortcuts, are great.
You can be 99 woodcutting AND fishing AND mining AND ect... Thats something that shouldnt be undermined. You can head to a bank, and put on mage gear, or melee, or range, or a hybrid. THAT is character freedom. And names like Zezima will echo through gaming for years to come. THAT is character recognition.
#2 ArcheAge. Yes..ArcheAge....You can master Several profs, but not all (Unless you used enough snowflakes). You could change your class, gear, skills on the fly, and master those classes on ONE character. You could accomplish hundreds of achievements, on ONE name. And people knew and recognized you for it.
#3 Guild Wars 1. One of my favorite MMOs EVER. A game that I feel got the skill system down perfectly. *ahem* GW had a main character, with a bunch of alt characters. When added a friend, it would add the entire account, so your friends could track you, but not the public. Rank 1 in arenas were only recognized for the TOON, they achieved that on. Titles were only given to the character it was achieved on. Recognition was given to the name, not the account. I held top 5 Hero Battle rank for almost 2 years. And only a handful of people knew my non-HB character names. THAT isnt character recognition. This is the problem with "Family names" While friends can still see where and which character your playing, the public has no clue who you are.
Gamers that want to be known, recognized, feared, praised, attacked, defended, greeted, scorned..you name it...Deserve to be. If he wants to accomplish everything, on one name...and he pulls it off. Why shouldnt he be KNOWN throughout the server for it? He deserves to be...Don't you think? Why should he have to name all his characters "Spartanz (alt)" Nobody wants that...Especially if its 45 days...4-5 hours a day...to max adventurer level...Per character. Can you imagine needing to play Spartanz-alt for hundreds of hours..You'd completely separate yourself from "Spartanz" The public may even think you've quit the game. Only a handful of players that have you added as a friend, would know that you're just grinding out the 6th alt...
Intrepid has stated they want you to feel accomplished. They want you to feel notoriety..
Alts wont achieve that. Separate names won't achieve that. Isolating accomplishments won't achieve that.
I want people to see the name Spartanz and know exactly who they're up against. I want them to check my build and go "shit Spartanz is playing his necromancer today" Or "Spartanz is just healing today? HA we're saved!" If IS pulls off the "home region" stuff, and players are truly somewhat tied down to an area, I want people to know the name Spartanz...Not Spartanz, Fluffy Bunny, Necrodancer, Applesauce123, RaindbowSkittles....ect And we shouldn't have to use the name Spartanzalt1,2,3,4,5,6 in order for people to know who we are.
As for the counter arguments, I get it. And it definitely needs to be a hassle to swap classes. Or It needs to be a system where in order to master smelting, you have to "archive" a different processing skill. Or use the ArcheAge approach, allow players to expand their mastery numbers, but send them on a rigorous journey to unlock an extra slot. Maybe even make a journey for every lifeskill/class that needs to be completed before unlocking once you've selected the soft cap. There should be restrictions, there should be limits on how many masteries you can have at once...But give us the option. Give us the freedom to make that choice.
Personally I don't see the point of allowing alts except that company gains additional income from players by making second character, because every choice you make towards developing your character loses its meaning since you can create another character that is more proficient in something than your main. For example: mastering another crafting profession, when the game allows only one per character.
Personally I don't see the point of allowing alts except that company gains additional income from players by making second character
That depends on the game. Ashes will give a currently unknown, described as "comfortable", amount of character slots per account. However runescape for example is one such game as you described, with only having 1 character per account.
My alts have always the same race and the last syllable is different to the main. For me, it's enough.
And maybe in WoW Vanilla with a small server population anybody noticed your name. But these days nobody whould cares.
@PlagueMonk hypothetically I make three characters: character 1 is a tank/miner, 2 is a cleric/smelter, 3 is a dps/blacksmith. I can now circumvent profession interdependence and fill multiple combat roles any time I want by switching between alts, how does a well designed class changing mechanic exacerbate the issue that already exists?
Well you appear to have the basic metallurgy side covered but who is going to make your armor and weapons? And what about cooking? I assume you will want those food buffs. What about sailing? You will still need someone to build all your boats. What about Jewelry making? You will need those trinket stat bonuses no? And I haven't even mentioned them all.
So if you want to be truly independent in crafting it's going to take many more than just 3 but why when you could sell/trade what you are good at to someone else for what you are lacking? And there we have the need for a player driven economy with everyone working together (just like it real life ) Yes, you CAN do it all yourself but it will be a hell of a lot of work.
I think you are confusing the issue. The point is that my system isn't creating new problems. Any issue that my system has already is an issue. People creating 64 alts to master every class and every profession is going to happen. Its only a matter of time. Is that a problem? No its not. Its just the nature of hardcore gamers. No lifers need more to challenge and entertain them because they have more time to invest and that is what makes them happy. The fact is that none of this matters. People who organize will blow the lone wolves out of the water. Everyone gets to play the way they want to play and be happy with their amazing gaming experience. As long an idea isn't hurting anyone then there is no problem
I'm not confusing anything and this was simply a response to EvelynChills post that they would be self sufficient which is clearly not the case.
But a truce.....I've thought about it and will recant on the crafting portion.....IF.........each craft tree after the first becomes increasingly difficult. And when I say difficult I mean like by at least factor of 3. So the second tree would take 3x longer to master and the 3rd would be again 3x harder (so 9x more difficult than the first). This would better simulate how difficult it would be to master everything but you could do it if you invested enough time and resources. I would bet most would be fine with 1 and some would call it good after 2. Only a select few like you would take on the challenge of all 3.
I still don't agree with being able to learn all classes though and there's still the issue of changing race which should never happen.
Class switching is just a dumb, videogamey sytem. It never made sense to me why FF14 insists on having classes, but allows you to switch out your mage brain with your lancer brain on the fly, as if you're being replaced by a version from an alternate dimension that's a completely different competency level as you are.
You can already freely decide what weapon you choose, what armor you wear, what secondary class you want to push your archetype towards, your religion, your organization, your citizenship to a node, ALL OF THESE THINGS that can be changed and reset if you really, really want to.
The whole idea of "choices mattering" is that you can't just go back whenever you want. If you can freely switch, you can never truly commit to one choice, because you won't lose anything by deciding to go for something completely different. Maybe it's different for someone who just commits to grinding out 100% of everything, but on the road there, you have no identity, you're just a wibbly-wobbly everyman, with a cassette deck for brains.
The only thing right now that you can't go back on is your race, and your primary class. How is that not enough?
@PlagueMonk the point wasn't to say that they would be completely self-sufficient, it was to say that someone leveling multiple classes on a single character wouldn't be any less dependant on other players than someone leveling multiple classes on separate characters. Also, the crafting part wasn't even the strong part of the argument since you probably won't have enough character slots to max every profession anyways but if the max number of characters is eight then you can literally max every combat class and you only need four slots to have one of each role (tank, heal, dps, support) and be able to fill the role gap whenever you want.
@Beekeeper if their goal is to have choices matter then they haven't accomplished their goal; you CAN switch whenever you want, by switching between different alts whenever you want. You don't have to commit to one choice and you don't lose anything by trying other classes since you can just go back to your other character that will be exactly the same as they left it. If they want choices to matter they should probably limit you to one character per server, which I would honestly prefer rather than having a veneer of "choices matter" but actually they don't as long as you play on multiple characters.
Also, the reason people complain about class is that it is the single most impactful decision that affects how you play the game but you have to make it before you even start playing the game when you have the least amount of information. Compare it to how I understand the artisan skills to work (based on recent interviews/dev discussions and what is currently on the wiki). Steven has described being able to progress to a certain degree in many artisan skills before making a permanent choice about which one you actually want to commit to and master. The game allows you more time and flexibility to make an informed choice about which type of resource you want to walk up and press "f" next to then it does about your class which has an enormous impact on how you play the game.
Inothing like you propose ... I think that’s a bit much ... but ... it would be a fun single server to have for those that would li,e one server like that but not for the rest Of the servers ... but still only being able to have one primary class and live with the choice unless you re roll and delete
The game allows you more time and flexibility to make an informed choice about which type of resource you want to walk up and press "f" next to then it does about your class which has an enormous impact on how you play the game.
Just because it's not on the same character, it doesn't mean you can't spend as much time as you want to try out different classes to make an informed choice.
@Ravudha thank you for agreeing that letting people level multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as letting them level multiple classes separately on the same character and that making it a "permanent" choice doesn't actually increase player identity or how meaningful the decisions are
@/ thank you for agreeing that letting people level multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as letting them level multiple classes separately on the same character and that making it a "permanent" choice doesn't actually increase player identity or how meaningful the decisions are
It’s not the same at all dude, not functionally, and not in spirit.
Characters take a lot of time to level. Each one will have different base stats based on race. Each class will have different quest options available to them. Each race has different quest options available to them. Social organizations offer different quests and features and you can’t join all of them.
Requiring different characters to experience more beyond your first choices is intentional design. Each of your characters will have options available to them. If you want different options, if you want to tank instead of dps or gather instead of craft, you need different characters.
You’re just gonna have to get over it. Get comfy with rolling alts or accept that you can’t 110% an MMO on one character.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you go back and watch the early streams from KS and right after they were asked this question a lot. They hemmed and hawed for a while before making the decision.
I see both side of this. I would be ok with being able to swap your archetype but keep crafting how it is. And if they change it to allow being able to switch it should be costly in gold/mats and only doable in town every 3-7 days to make the choice matter. Make people think ahead not just face roll new class every five steps.
We also don't know if their are any in game societies that are class bound and how they interact with the players.
Gear being agnostic is a great thing and have stats is important. Storage of gear for each roll will and should be different. Someone mentioned another game that left the gear stored on that spec. I think it should not be and you will need to figure it out.
For me I see both sides and either is fine. Surnames and clan type stuff as long as it is not forced is whatever for me.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
@Ravudha thank you for agreeing that letting people level multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as letting them level multiple classes separately on the same character and that making it a "permanent" choice doesn't actually increase player identity or how meaningful the decisions are
Er...all I said was the game does give you all the opportunity to make an informed decision by trying out different classes on different characters.
That doesn't equal thinking multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as multiple classes on one character. I was talking about a very specific experiential factor, not the entire holistic experience between the two scenarios. *shrug*
@Caeryl I'm already over it and I already plan to have multiple characters if there are multiple classes that I really want to play. My problem is that none of these arguments that invoke player identity or meaningful choices hold any water when there are mechanics in the game that allow you to circumvent any restrictions that get implemented. Right now all of the "restrictions" are illusionary and if Intrepid wants the choices to *actually* matter then they should make them *more* restrictive so that people can't have a max level tank and a max level cleric and a max level whatever else they want all on the same server and switch between them whenever they want, willy nilly.
I'm already over it and I already plan to have multiple characters if there are multiple classes that I really want to play. My problem is that none of these arguments that invoke player identity or meaningful choices hold any water when there are mechanics in the game that allow you to circumvent any restrictions that get implemented. Right now all of the "restrictions" are illusionary and if Intrepid wants the choices to *actually* matter then they should make them *more* restrictive so that people can't have a max level tank and a max level cleric and a max level whatever else they want all on the same server and switch between them whenever they want, willy nilly.
If you don’t see the need to max and gear out multiple characters (with 45day 1-50 leveling time) and limited profession progression as meaningful restrictions, then more power to you. Trading between characters is somewhat restricted so you’ll have to rely on others either way, which is the point. If you try to do it all solo, you’re going to be inconvenienced.
Im 99% behind this idea, and I'll go into why, and even give examples
#1 Runescape. Games that allow you to master everything, with no shortcuts, are great.
You can be 99 woodcutting AND fishing AND mining AND ect... Thats something that shouldnt be undermined. You can head to a bank, and put on mage gear, or melee, or range, or a hybrid. THAT is character freedom. And names like Zezima will echo through gaming for years to come. THAT is character recognition.
#2 ArcheAge. Yes..ArcheAge....You can master Several profs, but not all (Unless you used enough snowflakes). You could change your class, gear, skills on the fly, and master those classes on ONE character. You could accomplish hundreds of achievements, on ONE name. And people knew and recognized you for it.
#3 Guild Wars 1. One of my favorite MMOs EVER. A game that I feel got the skill system down perfectly. *ahem* GW had a main character, with a bunch of alt characters. When added a friend, it would add the entire account, so your friends could track you, but not the public. Rank 1 in arenas were only recognized for the TOON, they achieved that on. Titles were only given to the character it was achieved on. Recognition was given to the name, not the account. I held top 5 Hero Battle rank for almost 2 years. And only a handful of people knew my non-HB character names. THAT isnt character recognition. This is the problem with "Family names" While friends can still see where and which character your playing, the public has no clue who you are.
Gamers that want to be known, recognized, feared, praised, attacked, defended, greeted, scorned..you name it...Deserve to be. If he wants to accomplish everything, on one name...and he pulls it off. Why shouldnt he be KNOWN throughout the server for it? He deserves to be...Don't you think? Why should he have to name all his characters "Spartanz (alt)" Nobody wants that...Especially if its 45 days...4-5 hours a day...to max adventurer level...Per character. Can you imagine needing to play Spartanz-alt for hundreds of hours..You'd completely separate yourself from "Spartanz" The public may even think you've quit the game. Only a handful of players that have you added as a friend, would know that you're just grinding out the 6th alt...
Intrepid has stated they want you to feel accomplished. They want you to feel notoriety..
Alts wont achieve that. Separate names won't achieve that. Isolating accomplishments won't achieve that.
I want people to see the name Spartanz and know exactly who they're up against. I want them to check my build and go "shit Spartanz is playing his necromancer today" Or "Spartanz is just healing today? HA we're saved!" If IS pulls off the "home region" stuff, and players are truly somewhat tied down to an area, I want people to know the name Spartanz...Not Spartanz, Fluffy Bunny, Necrodancer, Applesauce123, RaindbowSkittles....ect And we shouldn't have to use the name Spartanzalt1,2,3,4,5,6 in order for people to know who we are.
As for the counter arguments, I get it. And it definitely needs to be a hassle to swap classes. Or It needs to be a system where in order to master smelting, you have to "archive" a different processing skill. Or use the ArcheAge approach, allow players to expand their mastery numbers, but send them on a rigorous journey to unlock an extra slot. Maybe even make a journey for every lifeskill/class that needs to be completed before unlocking once you've selected the soft cap. There should be restrictions, there should be limits on how many masteries you can have at once...But give us the option. Give us the freedom to make that choice.
See now this is pro veteran MMO monster who gets it. I think you have to be an absolute monster in order to fully appreciate the need for this to be a part of a game. I have experienced all of these games and every example Spartanz gave. I remember a single mother named LIGHTNING back playing runescape when I was in highschool. She had the highest stat in every single skill in the game. It blew my mind and to this day I have not forgotten her name. The TeamVASHalt is the stupidest name ever and we've all been forced to do it. Its awful and it murders your Roleplay identity or any pride you will have for that character. The only thing I disagree with is saying that this process needs to be a hassle. I disagree fervently. The fact that you are switching to a new class and essentially creating an alt that has to start all over again from nothing is punishing enough. I see no reason to make this process worse otherwise we are just going to make alts which we can switch to instantly with no downsides. This system has to be equally as seamless
I think you have perhaps only looked at the one aspect of this.
The social and religious organizations in Ashes are a fairly key content component. They are something players will need to work at and work on, but they will have rewards.
If there was a notion of players being able to swap out primary classes, these organizations would need to cater to all character types somewhat evenly, as they are not something you can just swap in and out of.
Players would be upset if the game allowed them to change their primary class at will, but then forced them to hold on to their religion and social organizations without being able to swap between them easily - as the way the game is likely to be, there absolutely will be organizations that are better suited to a mage and others to a tank, and yet others to a rogue. The entire premise of the OP's post - which is that he wants to "Max out an Alt for every single class in the game so I can learn, understand and exploit each classes weaknesses in PvP" falls dead flat when you consider that the builds people will be using will include these social and religious organizations.
Suddenly, in order to make all primary classes on all characters possible, you are talking about a fundamental redesign of a core content component.
Again, I am not saying this isn't something that should be discussed - I am saying that any serious discussion about it really needs to factor that in. If that is not being considered, then the discussion is simply not serious.
Comments
Truly an unpopular opinion.
If you want to play alts, go ahead.
If you want to be hard core and only have 1 character, go ahead. If you want to play a different class, go ahead. Just delete the one you have and roll another one up.
See, everybody is happy.
This is a game that allows players to level each class individually.
This is the game he was playing when he was working though most of the ideas in Ashes.
So this idea absolutely would have been thought about, and has been discarded.
The reason it was disgarded (as far as I can see) is that Steven wants player choice to be a real factor in Ashes. A system whereby you can be any class you want demeans the choice you make as to which class you are.
Now, I am the first person to say that the fact that a thing has been decided is no reason to not continue to discuss and debate the idea - and I see no reason at all why that wouldn't be the case here.
However, if you are going to debate in regards to a system that has already been considered and designed around, you would need to take on every potential effect this change could have.
One of the key decisions in the game for players is in relation to social and religious organizations the player will join. Each character on your account can (as far as I can tell) join a different organization based on their particular preference.
If the game were to change to characters being able to play all classes, it would then behoove Intrepid to make all such organizations equally suitable to all potential classes. This would make all such organizations a whole lot more "same-y", and thus reduce the impact of player decisions even further.
Also, in a situation where players can play all classes on one character, they only need to level one of these organizations once - and due to the need for these organizations to be somewhat equally rewarding to all classes, that is all the time and effort that player needs to put in to organizations and religion.
In the game as it stands now, each character needs to level up an organization and religion that is only applicable to that one character, and so each character would have an organization and religion selected for them and then would be leveled up independently of the other characters on the account. Since these organizations are able to be distinct due to not needed to cater to all classes, these different organizations and religions can now have their leveling content designed uniquely distinct from the other religions and organizations.
The problem is your desire will trivialize a core tenant of the game which is choices matter and also the entire game design for players and nodes.
Alts are somewhat passively encouraged due to the necessity of leveling up a new character and experiencing the content entirely different in a different light via the node systems entire design philosophy. Since you would be building that character from the ground up you would need things differently, play the content in probably new and different ways, have different desires for that character and end up influencing and joining different areas of the world to change.
Even allowing your suggestion as an option would be massively detrimental to the games life span and population/player retention health since people will almost always take the path of least resistance. If you dont have to do anything new or different why should you? Why should anyone? It trivializes content, progression, and player interaction simply to play the game faster for you. Which actually incorporates P2w elements.
Gonna be a no here for me.
I do think achievements shouldn't be character based though. It's one thing WoW always did that i wish they never did and that would be better if it was account based. It gives a feeling of redoing stuff you don't want to redo. It doesn't make sense technically and is just a gameplay consideration, but I don't like chasing achievements for every single character you make when the playable content is over 5000 hours.
So I agree that some things should at least have the option of being account wide. However, tying your base archetype to a changeable thing is too far. Alts are generally important and shouldn't be overlooked. They also change unfair situations you would otherwise be permanently stuck in.
U.S. East
I never go out of my way to get achievements on my main, so I can't see any reason to do so on an alt. Achievements are - to me - nothing more than the developers attempting to keep players in the game for a longer period of time than they would otherwise, but in a way where the developers don't ahve to make actual content.
You kill the hardest raid encounter in the game, and the developer dangles an achievement with a timer, or with no deaths, or with both - or with some other arbitrary encounter specific condition. That right there keeps a good number of guilds busy for a good amount of time, basically the developer dangling a shiny object to keep kids amused for a few minutes.
This means the developers don't need to develop actual new content at nearly the same pace as they would have to do without these pointless achievements. The players have a shiny-but-pointless thing to keep them occupied.
This is assuming there will be achievements at all. I'd prefer if there were just no achievements personally. Because I don't want to feel like I have to collect them. I will go after them if they are there, but I will play however I want without them. I'd rather my choices just matter.
U.S. East
If achievements can't be linked, then all they do is function as a reward to the player for doing a thing in the game. Personally, I think the act of doing that thing should reward the player with enough of a reward as to not need the achievement on top of it.
If achievements can be linked, they become required for people to accept you in to groups, raids and guilds - it is one of the things that actually divides a playerbase, rather than being a thing that some people think divides a playerbase.
So really, I see no actual benefit to them other than to provide that shiny thing to keep players distracted while the developers spend too long making the next content dump.
I would certainly like to vouch for a Surname system given that if we were to make alts (if at all) I feel that the achievments/badges/banks and other mechanics would suffer due to the fact someone could mule their way into a position and make it harder for other players to truly enjoy the game. Competition is good when it comes to PVP but from a PvE perspective we don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot and create a false perspective that perfectionism pays off. Other MMORPGS did that and the communities pay for it with its toxicity, Ashes I am sure will find a way to attempt to balance issues as they arise.
Again how is it taking it too far? You have to put in exactly the same amount of hours. More roles in to the world?that is also something that will happen with subclass system with excactly the same way.
If YOU think making alts is fun you can keep creating those. Subclass system is not removing alts.
There is one thing that I can think could be effected by this which alts might not get as easily as subclass would.
Clan benefits.
As fitting all your alts to one clan with high level benefits might be an issue if there is small player limit. Thus your alts wont be as strong as ypur main.
I think they want you to be the character you choose in the world with a more permanent feel. They want an economy and community that work together. Having alts (or at least too many) can mess up the markets and make things easier for gold farmers and such. Or on the combat side since fast travelling isn't a thing really, you could have 1 character in different parts of the map building up other nodes or ready to raid or pvp that could add to zerging that they have stated they are against. You should be able to find other classes or professions to help you out instead of having to do it all yourself and your contribution to content should feel meaningful, which can feel diluted with alts.
Then there are people that just want to collect or min/max everything and that is the joy for them. More power to them but I don't think that is the core of what they have planned for this game and I don't think every game should cater to everyone.
#1 Runescape. Games that allow you to master everything, with no shortcuts, are great.
You can be 99 woodcutting AND fishing AND mining AND ect... Thats something that shouldnt be undermined. You can head to a bank, and put on mage gear, or melee, or range, or a hybrid. THAT is character freedom. And names like Zezima will echo through gaming for years to come. THAT is character recognition.
#2 ArcheAge. Yes..ArcheAge....You can master Several profs, but not all (Unless you used enough snowflakes). You could change your class, gear, skills on the fly, and master those classes on ONE character. You could accomplish hundreds of achievements, on ONE name. And people knew and recognized you for it.
#3 Guild Wars 1. One of my favorite MMOs EVER. A game that I feel got the skill system down perfectly. *ahem* GW had a main character, with a bunch of alt characters. When added a friend, it would add the entire account, so your friends could track you, but not the public. Rank 1 in arenas were only recognized for the TOON, they achieved that on. Titles were only given to the character it was achieved on. Recognition was given to the name, not the account. I held top 5 Hero Battle rank for almost 2 years. And only a handful of people knew my non-HB character names. THAT isnt character recognition. This is the problem with "Family names" While friends can still see where and which character your playing, the public has no clue who you are.
Gamers that want to be known, recognized, feared, praised, attacked, defended, greeted, scorned..you name it...Deserve to be. If he wants to accomplish everything, on one name...and he pulls it off. Why shouldnt he be KNOWN throughout the server for it? He deserves to be...Don't you think? Why should he have to name all his characters "Spartanz (alt)" Nobody wants that...Especially if its 45 days...4-5 hours a day...to max adventurer level...Per character. Can you imagine needing to play Spartanz-alt for hundreds of hours..You'd completely separate yourself from "Spartanz" The public may even think you've quit the game. Only a handful of players that have you added as a friend, would know that you're just grinding out the 6th alt...
Intrepid has stated they want you to feel accomplished. They want you to feel notoriety..
Alts wont achieve that. Separate names won't achieve that. Isolating accomplishments won't achieve that.
I want people to see the name Spartanz and know exactly who they're up against. I want them to check my build and go "shit Spartanz is playing his necromancer today" Or "Spartanz is just healing today? HA we're saved!" If IS pulls off the "home region" stuff, and players are truly somewhat tied down to an area, I want people to know the name Spartanz...Not Spartanz, Fluffy Bunny, Necrodancer, Applesauce123, RaindbowSkittles....ect And we shouldn't have to use the name Spartanzalt1,2,3,4,5,6 in order for people to know who we are.
As for the counter arguments, I get it. And it definitely needs to be a hassle to swap classes. Or It needs to be a system where in order to master smelting, you have to "archive" a different processing skill. Or use the ArcheAge approach, allow players to expand their mastery numbers, but send them on a rigorous journey to unlock an extra slot. Maybe even make a journey for every lifeskill/class that needs to be completed before unlocking once you've selected the soft cap. There should be restrictions, there should be limits on how many masteries you can have at once...But give us the option. Give us the freedom to make that choice.
That depends on the game. Ashes will give a currently unknown, described as "comfortable", amount of character slots per account. However runescape for example is one such game as you described, with only having 1 character per account.
And maybe in WoW Vanilla with a small server population anybody noticed your name. But these days nobody whould cares.
I'm not confusing anything and this was simply a response to EvelynChills post that they would be self sufficient which is clearly not the case.
But a truce.....I've thought about it and will recant on the crafting portion.....IF.........each craft tree after the first becomes increasingly difficult. And when I say difficult I mean like by at least factor of 3. So the second tree would take 3x longer to master and the 3rd would be again 3x harder (so 9x more difficult than the first). This would better simulate how difficult it would be to master everything but you could do it if you invested enough time and resources. I would bet most would be fine with 1 and some would call it good after 2. Only a select few like you would take on the challenge of all 3.
I still don't agree with being able to learn all classes though and there's still the issue of changing race which should never happen.
You can already freely decide what weapon you choose, what armor you wear, what secondary class you want to push your archetype towards, your religion, your organization, your citizenship to a node, ALL OF THESE THINGS that can be changed and reset if you really, really want to.
The whole idea of "choices mattering" is that you can't just go back whenever you want. If you can freely switch, you can never truly commit to one choice, because you won't lose anything by deciding to go for something completely different. Maybe it's different for someone who just commits to grinding out 100% of everything, but on the road there, you have no identity, you're just a wibbly-wobbly everyman, with a cassette deck for brains.
The only thing right now that you can't go back on is your race, and your primary class. How is that not enough?
@Beekeeper if their goal is to have choices matter then they haven't accomplished their goal; you CAN switch whenever you want, by switching between different alts whenever you want. You don't have to commit to one choice and you don't lose anything by trying other classes since you can just go back to your other character that will be exactly the same as they left it. If they want choices to matter they should probably limit you to one character per server, which I would honestly prefer rather than having a veneer of "choices matter" but actually they don't as long as you play on multiple characters.
Also, the reason people complain about class is that it is the single most impactful decision that affects how you play the game but you have to make it before you even start playing the game when you have the least amount of information. Compare it to how I understand the artisan skills to work (based on recent interviews/dev discussions and what is currently on the wiki). Steven has described being able to progress to a certain degree in many artisan skills before making a permanent choice about which one you actually want to commit to and master. The game allows you more time and flexibility to make an informed choice about which type of resource you want to walk up and press "f" next to then it does about your class which has an enormous impact on how you play the game.
Just because it's not on the same character, it doesn't mean you can't spend as much time as you want to try out different classes to make an informed choice.
It’s not the same at all dude, not functionally, and not in spirit.
Characters take a lot of time to level. Each one will have different base stats based on race. Each class will have different quest options available to them. Each race has different quest options available to them. Social organizations offer different quests and features and you can’t join all of them.
Requiring different characters to experience more beyond your first choices is intentional design. Each of your characters will have options available to them. If you want different options, if you want to tank instead of dps or gather instead of craft, you need different characters.
You’re just gonna have to get over it. Get comfy with rolling alts or accept that you can’t 110% an MMO on one character.
I see both side of this. I would be ok with being able to swap your archetype but keep crafting how it is. And if they change it to allow being able to switch it should be costly in gold/mats and only doable in town every 3-7 days to make the choice matter. Make people think ahead not just face roll new class every five steps.
We also don't know if their are any in game societies that are class bound and how they interact with the players.
Gear being agnostic is a great thing and have stats is important. Storage of gear for each roll will and should be different. Someone mentioned another game that left the gear stored on that spec. I think it should not be and you will need to figure it out.
For me I see both sides and either is fine. Surnames and clan type stuff as long as it is not forced is whatever for me.
Er...all I said was the game does give you all the opportunity to make an informed decision by trying out different classes on different characters.
That doesn't equal thinking multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as multiple classes on one character. I was talking about a very specific experiential factor, not the entire holistic experience between the two scenarios. *shrug*
If you don’t see the need to max and gear out multiple characters (with 45day 1-50 leveling time) and limited profession progression as meaningful restrictions, then more power to you. Trading between characters is somewhat restricted so you’ll have to rely on others either way, which is the point. If you try to do it all solo, you’re going to be inconvenienced.
See now this is pro veteran MMO monster who gets it. I think you have to be an absolute monster in order to fully appreciate the need for this to be a part of a game. I have experienced all of these games and every example Spartanz gave. I remember a single mother named LIGHTNING back playing runescape when I was in highschool. She had the highest stat in every single skill in the game. It blew my mind and to this day I have not forgotten her name. The TeamVASHalt is the stupidest name ever and we've all been forced to do it. Its awful and it murders your Roleplay identity or any pride you will have for that character. The only thing I disagree with is saying that this process needs to be a hassle. I disagree fervently. The fact that you are switching to a new class and essentially creating an alt that has to start all over again from nothing is punishing enough. I see no reason to make this process worse otherwise we are just going to make alts which we can switch to instantly with no downsides. This system has to be equally as seamless
I think you have perhaps only looked at the one aspect of this.
The social and religious organizations in Ashes are a fairly key content component. They are something players will need to work at and work on, but they will have rewards.
If there was a notion of players being able to swap out primary classes, these organizations would need to cater to all character types somewhat evenly, as they are not something you can just swap in and out of.
Players would be upset if the game allowed them to change their primary class at will, but then forced them to hold on to their religion and social organizations without being able to swap between them easily - as the way the game is likely to be, there absolutely will be organizations that are better suited to a mage and others to a tank, and yet others to a rogue. The entire premise of the OP's post - which is that he wants to "Max out an Alt for every single class in the game so I can learn, understand and exploit each classes weaknesses in PvP" falls dead flat when you consider that the builds people will be using will include these social and religious organizations.
Suddenly, in order to make all primary classes on all characters possible, you are talking about a fundamental redesign of a core content component.
Again, I am not saying this isn't something that should be discussed - I am saying that any serious discussion about it really needs to factor that in. If that is not being considered, then the discussion is simply not serious.