NO ALTS!!

Eburin

@PlagueMonk hypothetically I make three characters: character 1 is a tank/miner, 2 is a cleric/smelter, 3 is a dps/blacksmith. I can now circumvent profession interdependence and fill multiple combat roles any time I want by switching between alts, how does a well designed class changing mechanic exacerbate the issue that already exists?

TeamVASH

Birdie wrote: »

If someone was able to master all class/professions on 1 character? I don't see a point here.
Also, what if someone wanted to be incognito ? For example, I want to have more than 1 characters. 1 for content and at least 1 for RP. I wouldn't want them to be linked in any way.
Family name will be a thing so you can have your characters in the same family and share the same family name.

You make some amazing points sir so lets break it down
1) Why would mastering every class and every profession mean something to me. Because my character is my roleplay identity and the culmanation of skills and masteries of that characters progression is the representation of the pride and love I have for this game. Its something I've wanted in every mmo I've ever played and its been a source of great sadness that the idea was never implemented
2) If someone wants to play Roleplay on alts or have more then one character they should absolutely be allowed to do that. I completely understand and support that mindset completely. Roleplay is the spice of life and should always be embraced and protected
3) Family name is great and all but it isn't your character. My name is my name. No one else can ever use it. Everyone will see it and know me. Family names can be stolen and impersonated. Also, I don't want to separate all of my accomplishments across alts. I want it conveniently housed under one massive account as a showcase of my love and dedication to this game

PlagueMonk

EvelynChills wrote: »

@PlagueMonk hypothetically I make three characters: character 1 is a tank/miner, 2 is a cleric/smelter, 3 is a dps/blacksmith. I can now circumvent profession interdependence and fill multiple combat roles any time I want by switching between alts, how does a well designed class changing mechanic exacerbate the issue that already exists?

Well you appear to have the basic metallurgy side covered but who is going to make your armor and weapons? And what about cooking? I assume you will want those food buffs. What about sailing? You will still need someone to build all your boats. What about Jewelry making? You will need those trinket stat bonuses no? And I haven't even mentioned them all.

So if you want to be truly independent in crafting it's going to take many more than just 3 buy why when you could sell/trade what you are good at to someone else for what you are lacking? And there we have the need for a player driven economy with everyone working together (just like it real life ) Yes, you CAN do it all yourself but it will be a hell of a lot of work.

MeagsTV

PlagueMonk wrote: »

EvelynChills wrote: »

@PlagueMonk hypothetically I make three characters: character 1 is a tank/miner, 2 is a cleric/smelter, 3 is a dps/blacksmith. I can now circumvent profession interdependence and fill multiple combat roles any time I want by switching between alts, how does a well designed class changing mechanic exacerbate the issue that already exists?

Well you appear to have the basic metallurgy side covered but who is going to make your armor and weapons? And what about cooking? I assume you will want those food buffs. What about sailing? You will still need someone to build all your boats. What about Jewelry making? You will need those trinket stat bonuses no? And I haven't even mentioned them all.

So if you want to be truly independent in crafting it's going to take many more than just 3 buy why when you could sell/trade what you are good at to someone else for what you are lacking? And there we have the need for a player driven economy with everyone working together (just like it real life ) Yes, you CAN do it all yourself but it will be a hell of a lot of work.

I agree. It would take a LONG time to level up all those classes to be a solo player. It'll be faster to go trade with someone who has already puts the hours in to max out their profession. But you should have the choice to spend the hours to max out all your characters if you want. There's still advantages and disadvantages to both play styles which I believe makes it fair.

TeamVASH

Seabrook39 wrote: »

I wish AOC had one character also where you can change classes at will also, but that's not going to happen. One thing I hated about alts is if you have several or more it's a hassle to manage them sometimes. EX. A lot of logging off and logging on.

I'm concern about raids where guilds need a specific class, Ex. Tank. Tank has subclass A, but subclass B or C is better for certain specific raids. Player now needs to create and lvl more characters to have subclass B and C etc. I heard of people in a MMO with 64 or more characters, the login character select screen alone was crazy.

Suggestion:

"In game tag" display above player's name, similar to forum name but CANNOT be change and is linked and display on all characters on the same account. Other players will now recognize the in game tag.

Maybe character names should not be display at all. Only the in game tag will be display no matter what character the player is on. Character name is only for player's own recognition. Multiple characters on the same account can have the same character name, Ex. Mule.

Another gaming service does this, while in game your gamer tag ID is display only, never your character's name. Something else I hated about creating new characters, is where it seems every name your try is already taken. One game tag ID compared to hundreds of character names I have to think of. The same gamer tag CANNOT exist on another account across all servers, includes servers in EU and other countries. Also makes it easier to identify someone who is a jerk or scammer.

Lets try to avoid the few hassles I mentioned above.

I'm glad you agree. Thank you for saying so. One character that can meet your every need to so infinitely superior to a boat load of alts. Its always been a massive peeve of mine. It feels like all that time I spend on alts is disconnected and wasted. People will ask why I'm not around or not recognize me robbing me of making a positive role play impact on the world because that reputation wasn't there. Its just so many missed little things and opportunities that I always wish I could have had. People are happier when they see my name just as I am happier when I see peoples names that I recognize instantly. There is a love and a connection that gamers share when they play enough to have that recognition. Its like, oh hey Vash what are you up to today. Vash - "Well brother today I am delving into the arts of Necromancy" It makes gaming truly special. Nothing makes me happier then seeing a Role player whose name I instantly recognize

TeamVASH

Valento92 wrote: »

If IS wants to make your identity visible they could add a system like GW2. You have an account name (which is visible by everyone) and you have your characters' names. No hiding, no faking, you are who you are regardless if you play on 2000 alts. Though I can see how it may break immersion.

You are correct. Playing alts is not at all what I want. I want the choice to have all of my power and reputation known on a single name. Every role player will understand my position even if its not their preference

TeamVASH

EvelynChills wrote: »

@winner909098 everyone can already be every class and master every profession; it's called making an alt. If you want to be a mage one minute and switch to fighter the next all you have to do is switch characters, and then you can change back whenever you want. It's free class swapping at any time with no cooldown! Just because you can switch from your mage alt to your fighter alt doesn't mean you can do the dungeon by yourself.

EvelynChills gets it. Thank you for the back up brotha

TeamVASH

Warth wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

If IS wants to make your identity visible they could add a system like GW2. You have an account name (which is visible by everyone) and you have your characters' names. No hiding, no faking, you are who you are regardless if you play on 2000 alts. Though I can see how it may break immersion.

Not a fan of the Account Name way.

Just Use the same Name for all characters

The point is that I don't want to play alts. It presents a pile of problems I addressed in the opening post

TeamVASH

Dicdonya wrote: »

No idea what the controversy is over this idea. FFXI had all classes available to a single character and it was great. People still absolutely had alts though, as racial bonuses mattered if you were trying to min max and I’m pretty sure crafting was limited per character.

Also I don’t think the OP is saying no one can have alts, just that they don’t want to be forced to play an alt simply to play a new class. So if you like alts go wild, but the OP would like the option not to.

Even though I’d be fine with the idea, the fact is this game is not being set up that way, so OP you are just going to have to decide if that’s a deal breaker for you. Also it’s clear by this thread popular opinion won’t be helping you make this come to fruition.

Thank you so much for the support brotha. I appreciate you speaking up. As you probably know, people are much more likely to speak up when they disagree. Lineage ][ was my first mmo and I've been playing them ever since. There is a MASSIVE amount of support for this idea. Game after game I've talked with countless people wishing for the same thing. Hopefully people will start to speak up. In the meantime I edited the opening post to address all of the silly counterpoints to this idea. If I didn't believe in this idea and the people are merit behind it I wouldn't waste my time passionately promoting its merit. I believe

Ventharien

I'm sorry that you feel this will negatively impact your gameplay, but you are incorrect in your assumption that this would not harm anyone elses gameplay. It would create a braindead economy, shatter any inter dependence, rob every class of it's identity, and is just not something IS intends to do. So either you continue your peeve and enjoy the other aspects, or find a better match to what you would hope for in a game.

Ventharien

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Well you appear to have the basic metallurgy side covered but who is going to make your armor and weapons? And what about cooking? I assume you will want those food buffs. What about sailing? You will still need someone to build all your boats. What about Jewelry making? You will need those trinket stat bonuses no? And I haven't even mentioned them all.

So if you want to be truly independent in crafting it's going to take many more than just 3 buy why when you could sell/trade what you are good at to someone else for what you are lacking? And there we have the need for a player driven economy with everyone working together (just like it real life ) Yes, you CAN do it all yourself but it will be a hell of a lot of work.

Not to mention if they weave the crafts into each other enough so you need wood materials or leather for weapon and armor crafting, and other wider spread connections.

TeamVASH

kesarakk wrote: »

I’m sorry to be the one to have to tell you this...

IS won’t undo all the hard work they’ve put into class identity and demarcation just so you can have what you want. You can argue and counter argue all the way to launch, but that won’t change Steven’s vision. That said, I hope you find some enjoyment in the game and I implore you to post what server, when they announce them, you will be playing on in the forums! That way I know Vash is on that server and won’t be transferring to it ❤️

P.S. I have another hard to swallow pill for you... You don’t speak for majority of the gaming population, not even half of it. The true majority of us are perfectly fine with having alts and keeping characters separate and unable to play every class on one character. I personally see no logic in your post or comments other than “I Want It” and that isn’t a good enough reason unless you’re paying the bill like Steven

Thank you so much for your comment. I appreciate people disagreeing with kindness and proper debate. You may be correct but I respectfully disagree. I absolutely think that there is a good chance Steven hasn't thought about this idea and I truly believe that this idea integrates itself so completely into the hardcore community based Role Play experience and the value he has for players and personalities mattering within this incredible world he's created. I have no idea for what % of the population I truly speak for and neither do you. What I do know is that my idea hurts no one and benefits everyone so why would anyone deny it. I added to the opening post to better dispute some of the fears that people have and I think you will like what I had to say

Valento92

Ah, I re-read the OP. Well, it doesn't seem too far off but as everyone has pointed out over the course of this thread this game seems to be going for a more traditional class lock, it won't allow you to master everything on a single character and swap around even if the swapping would be somewhat limited. It's beyond the scope of this game. I also think people fret too much over the issues that could arise, it's as if they'd judge the outcome of things because the game offer systems with mechanics opposed to what they think is optimal, but I digress... the game most likely won't have this.

Eburin

@PlagueMonk I'm glad you agree that being able to level multiple classes/professions doesn't actually enable you to do anything that isn't already in the game and that the player interdependence would still exist either way

TeamVASH

Valento92 wrote: »

Ah, I re-read the OP. Well, it doesn't seem too far off but as everyone has pointed out over the course of this thread this game seems to be going for a more traditional class lock, it won't allow you to master everything on a single character and swap around even if the swapping would be somewhat limited. It's beyond the scope of this game. I also think people fret too much over the issues that could arise, it's as if they'd judge the outcome of things because the game offer systems with mechanics opposed to what they think is optimal, but I digress... the game most likely won't have this.

All that matters is that we speak up and say hey... This systems should be in the game. The game needs this. it doesn't matter that you think it won't happen. Speak up and say that it should. Support a fantastic idea and make your voice heard

winner909098

TeamVASH wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Ah, I re-read the OP. Well, it doesn't seem too far off but as everyone has pointed out over the course of this thread this game seems to be going for a more traditional class lock, it won't allow you to master everything on a single character and swap around even if the swapping would be somewhat limited. It's beyond the scope of this game. I also think people fret too much over the issues that could arise, it's as if they'd judge the outcome of things because the game offer systems with mechanics opposed to what they think is optimal, but I digress... the game most likely won't have this.

All that matters is that we speak up and say hey... This systems should be in the game. The game needs this. it doesn't matter that you think it won't happen. Speak up and say that it should. Support a fantastic idea and make your voice heard

but the game doesn't need this

River

Yes alts! Make player rpg choice actually matter, thx.

TeamVASH

SepiDN wrote: »

I suggested this as well and what are these arguments "I WIN" Button? like how? is having 2 different characters "I WIN button". If not then how would this be? The ONLY reasonable argument for this is the class identity is lost by this absolutely nothing else. I for example I hate playing alts because it's so immersion breaking, I loose my friendlist, my friends won't know when I'm playing my alt.

Every time I make new character I have to announce my whole friendlist. IF they have shared friendlist, shared family name etc. then what is the point of the alts? why can't it all be done in 1 character? Give me a reasonable excuse. You could even gate it so that you much reach max level on your previous class to open new one.

It's convenient, it doesn't give you ANY advantage over alts, it builds up your reputation just like OP stated and that's it. "But but then everyone will be every class then what's the point?"... How does that differ from current situation? Everyone can be every class my making new characters. Im fine with family names as someone suggested but why do some of you argue against character with multiple classes but then pretty much say the exact same thing is ok but just needs to be done differently (family name system) and having to use different character. Is the name the issue?

Because I don't understand why do I have to send gold, items etc. to my ALT and do all the useless inventory hassle and "wait I log in my alt because he has that" instead of having them all on one character. Why? I'm all for hardcore oldschool gameplay but this is just making your life harder for the sake of it. Alts dont bring anything to the game but rather take away from it compared to 1 character having all the classes.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46050/sub-class-system#latest
Here's my suggestion on it.

EDIT:*
TBH I'd rather have 1 character per server. That would be true player identity. Since alts are being abused with gamesystems like ashes. Big alliance of lets say 3 clans, 200 hardcore players. They create and alt clan (50 players) and instead of having 3 castles they will now have 4. This is what happens in lineage 2 quite frequently even tho it has subclass system.
- Alts are used to farm for certain materials instead of buying them off market from fresh players.
- Alts are used to kill your own character to get rid off corruption by dualboxing.
- Alts are used to harass to make you flag in pvp
- Alts are way to be total dickweed to your fellow players without loosing rep.
- Alts lets you be spy in rival clan
- Alts create the ability to create "twinks" and harass new players.
- Alts lets you abuse the family teleport system
- Alts can be used as worldboss 'cameras', you make alts and log them out at worldboss spawns, Log them in to see if it's up or not.

Now if u disable alts and dualboxing then I could get onboard of this class identity thing.
But since alts are not going to be taken out of the game I'd rather see more people use the subclass system instead of alts.

I don't agree with taking alts away from people but my god do you make some insanely good arguments for it. I read your entire post multiple times and I absolutely love every idea you had to share. You are clearly also a veteran gamer

dawntracker

TeamVASH wrote: »

Thank you so much for your comment. I appreciate people disagreeing with kindness and proper debate. You may be correct but I respectfully disagree. I absolutely think that there is a good chance Steven hasn't thought about this idea and I truly believe that this idea integrates itself so completely into the hardcore community based Role Play experience and the value he has for players and personalities mattering within this incredible world he's created. I have no idea for what % of the population I truly speak for and neither do you. What I do know is that my idea hurts no one and benefits everyone so why would anyone deny it. I added to the opening post to better dispute some of the fears that people have and I think you will like what I had to say

I just want to note something about the part you said:
"I absolutely think that there is a good chance Steven hasn't thought about this idea and I truly believe that this idea integrates itself so completely into the hardcore community based Role Play experience and the value he has for players and personalities mattering within this incredible world he's created."

With all due respect, Steven has played and tried a lot of MMORPG's. That doesnt mean he knows everything, but lets just say he's been around the block just as much as any other MMORPG fan (if not more).

The idea you are pitching isn't new. Far from it even. FFXI had it, and FFXIV has it. And both have been around for a while and XIV is even one of the most populair MMO's right now. There is no way Steven hasn't heard of it.

That said, i don't agree with your standpoint. I like the stance Intrepid takes right now. But no harm in voicing your wishes.

TeamVASH

mrwaffles wrote: »

@TeamVASH First off welcome! I noticed you just joined the AoC community and I hope you stick around.

There's one concept to AoC people aren't really describing and I think it'll help with why IS chose to allow alts. The main drive for alts is mostly todo with builds of a character. The goal to the entire class system is to avoid the "Build of the week" mentality. Rift did this to death. Some new streamer, patch, or just dominating PVP build hits the interwebs and everyone clones it. Completely removing individuality and a players hard work. They want people to have some customization and choice but when you choose your base Archetype thats it..one and done (for that character).

To catch you up ill use some numbers (as I love math). DISCLAIMER: These numbers are based off the current information given and I took the floor (low points) of the equation.

8 archetypes
64 classes
10 minimum skills per archetype
4 schools per skill per class

8*10*4*64 = 20,480+ different builds!

This does not take into account skill points into each skill which would make that number re-donk-ulously high!

Wrapping up:
I pitched an idea a month ago about doing what Discord or Steam does and having an account name + character name. This way fiends and people can see your account no matter your alt. There are a bunch of ways this go wrong and needs fine tuning but what im getting at is that I feel there are other solutions out there then just fundamentally changing the Alts vs Single character decision.

Hey Waffles, thank you for the warm welcome! As for the numbers I'm not to worried about the different builds. Usually I'm only interested in maybe 3 builds per class at most. Any veteran player looks at a loadout and knows which ones are going to be the god builds. The nice thing about it is that skill points and everything can be changed around so I'm not to concerned with that end of the system. It allows for change which I like. I did edit the opening post to more clearly clarify dispute some of the fears which I think you will like

TeamVASH

mrwaffles wrote: »

@TeamVASH

I think given the option to consolidate all of their accomplishments to one character is something only a tiny % of people would choose to not utilize.

This sounds very much like a person who plays the game to level, get all the badges, unlock all the content. Really that is okay and very common, but your statement is based off that being the majority of the gaming community.

I've known so many people that create new alts just so they can create a new look because they like the character builder. yes games allow you to do this with mods you can buy or unlock but it's not the same experience. Others like Alts so they can start back up and do it again. Like digging out your old NES and playing Mario on 1-1. There are loads of reasons people want to have Alts.

If what you're saying I am the low % you speak about. I really have never cared for achievements in any game. I play MMOs differently then other games. Its the journey from level 1 to infinity. Not sure if it's my A.D.D. or the amazing games I've played but I rarely get full MIN MAX endgame. I always go "look new shinny character LETS START OVER AGAIN" lol.

I think we are actually 100% on the same side here. I updated my opening post to clarify and explain some of the fears that I think you will like because I totally get and agree with what you are saying

PlagueMonk

EvelynChills wrote: »

@PlagueMonk I'm glad you agree that being able to level multiple classes/professions doesn't actually enable you to do anything that isn't already in the game and that the player interdependence would still exist either way

Ah yes, I actually thought about that point but forgot to include it while I was writing. Good catch

TeamVASH

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

TeamVASH wrote: »

Reglon wrote: »

Runescape has more player IGN recognition than any other MMO for the exact reason you mention, but everyone still has alts.

You make an absolutely amazing point sir. And why do people still have alts in a game like that?

Because one character can't actually do it all. Aside from the 3 ironman modes, pvp has evolved over the near 20 years to have specific account builds designated as various types of pures, which are literally impossible to do on a "main" which is an account that generally levels everything. Pures are generally glasscannons leveled in such a way to maximize damage output with a lower combat level than comparable mains by forgoing defense levels.

Having certain skills restricted to 1/low levels cuts off some content like quests.

Exactly. We are actually on the same team here. I updated my opening post to clarify and dispute some common fears that I think you will like

mrwaffles

TeamVASH wrote: »

Hey Waffles, thank you for the warm welcome! As for the numbers I'm not to worried about the different builds. Usually I'm only interested in maybe 3 builds per class at most. Any veteran player looks at a loadout and knows which ones are going to be the god builds. The nice thing about it is that skill points and everything can be changed around so I'm not to concerned with that end of the system. It allows for change which I like. I did edit the opening post to more clearly clarify dispute some of the fears which I think you will like

I do like the clarification and synopsis for new reader to this thread . Very far off into the weeds from this thread but I also thought it'd be easy to classify a few builds as superior but there is just no way with AoC. No player is that clairvoyant with this many possibilities. IS even states their Rock Paper Scissor augment system is to avoid this. And if there are some elite few that deem their build "Best" I look forward to countering it on my many many alts (had to lol)

TeamVASH

winner909098 wrote: »

TeamVASH wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

but... whats the point of learning a class and being valuable if someone can change class on the spur of the moment???

Because if you learn a class and are valuable then you have learned a class and are valuable. You don't lose your spot unless someone else is doing it better. If someone takes your spot they are going to take it. Forcing them to take your spot on an alt doesn't change that you lost your spot. The only thing that changes is that everyone will recognize the name of the player who is achieving all of these things. People will eventually come to me for everything because they know that I will be able to do everything and fill every role. I would like to play a game where my name is always seen, known and hopefully loved for always being that guy who helps everyone

your suggestion takes away class inter-dependency. If anybody can be any class, then whats the point of playing? Eventually everybody would stay as one class, and people wouldn't care that much. It would take away the games struggle, because you will have everyone being the best PVE class while leveling, and then the best PVP class.

Because its already going to happen whether you like it or not. Alts already do that

TeamVASH

Warth wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

If IS wants to make your identity visible they could add a system like GW2. You have an account name (which is visible by everyone) and you have your characters' names. No hiding, no faking, you are who you are regardless if you play on 2000 alts. Though I can see how it may break immersion.

Not a fan of the Account Name way.

Just Use the same Name for all characters

I wouldn't mind this at all. One name making all your alts essentially the same character. I'm not opposed to that idea at all honestly. In fact I love that idea Mr Warth

ZeekMystic

@SepiDN I think I remember replying on your original thread. If I remember correctly the only problem I had with your idea was the boosted start for the alt classes

TeamVASH

McFrassle wrote: »

At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.

First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.

Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.

I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.

Your leveling issue isn't an issue. If you change your class you go to level 1 and have to start over again. Imagine creating an alt except you are doing it on the character you are already playing. You still have to level up, find gear and master the class the same way if you were to create an alt which is what people are already going to do now.
Second problem isn't a problem. People who focus will master, people who don't won't. People like me will master absolutely everything and the game gives every type of player base what they need to play for years keeping the game healthy and alive. Everyone wins

TeamVASH

PlagueMonk wrote: »

EvelynChills wrote: »

@PlagueMonk hypothetically I make three characters: character 1 is a tank/miner, 2 is a cleric/smelter, 3 is a dps/blacksmith. I can now circumvent profession interdependence and fill multiple combat roles any time I want by switching between alts, how does a well designed class changing mechanic exacerbate the issue that already exists?

Well you appear to have the basic metallurgy side covered but who is going to make your armor and weapons? And what about cooking? I assume you will want those food buffs. What about sailing? You will still need someone to build all your boats. What about Jewelry making? You will need those trinket stat bonuses no? And I haven't even mentioned them all.

So if you want to be truly independent in crafting it's going to take many more than just 3 buy why when you could sell/trade what you are good at to someone else for what you are lacking? And there we have the need for a player driven economy with everyone working together (just like it real life ) Yes, you CAN do it all yourself but it will be a hell of a lot of work.

I think you are confusing the issue. The point is that my system isn't creating new problems. Any issue that my system has already is an issue. People creating 64 alts to master every class and every profession is going to happen. Its only a matter of time. Is that a problem? No its not. Its just the nature of hardcore gamers. No lifers need more to challenge and entertain them because they have more time to invest and that is what makes them happy. The fact is that none of this matters. People who organize will blow the lone wolves out of the water. Everyone gets to play the way they want to play and be happy with their amazing gaming experience. As long an idea isn't hurting anyone then there is no problem

Ravudha

TeamVASH wrote: »

The point is that my system isn't creating new problems. ... People creating 64 alts to master every class and every profession is going to happen.

I don't think the problem is wih the (hardcore) players who use alts.

The problem is other types of players who frame their play style based on what the game permits/teaches them or don't necessarily like/want to use alts. I don't think this is a trivial number of players. Normally they would engage in an interdependent economy but many likely will not if the game mechanics allow them to be self-sufficient and master all professions on one character.