Dev Discussion #28 - Hybrid Combat

Tamerlorde

A hybrid of both would be nice, with single target being used for tab target skills and AoE being used for action combat. It would feel terrible to use a big single target skill with a 30s cooldown only to have it miss because your mouse wasn't on the right part of the screen, but at the same time that could be an incentive to aim better. Imo, action combat doesn't allow for players to click their skills with their mouse, as it would drastically slow down their timing of pumping skills out compared to someone who can press a key on their keyboard and instantly click on their screen somewhere. The hybrid would be a solid mix, and I would love for Intrepid to pave their own way forward for combat and ignore action combat systems from Eastern MMOs that are too flashy. An action combat system already gives so much power to the player with their skills, the skills don't need to be incredibly ostentatious in their design to help players fell like they have an "oomph" factor to their skills. Personally I'll be doing a 75% tab target skills as I do plan on player a single target damage class with side AoE skills that would preferably be action combat in some manner. Hope the feedback is useful!

KOAD

Action skills are usually more fun and snappy to use. my opinion on Tab-target has always been negative, sure it's usable, but to me it feels like it's only still around in the genre because it's familiar. but being familiar doesn't make it less clunky and irritating to use. so i'll probably focus on using action skills and avoid tab-targeted ones whenever possible.

Narys

Depends on how both systems turn out before I made a choice - I'd prefer action combat for the healing as long as it isn't clunky.

AnnoyingDarvil

I liked Aion, GW1, and ArchAge combat. I always hated the GW2 style it makes the game lack strategy and depth. I'm not saying Hybrid/Action can't work but I haven't seen a good example of it yet. Tab target has its flaws but I think its a trade off for a more balanced game.

Naylor

I find action combat is a lot more immersive than standing still and using 12345 and tabbing between targets. ESO did an alright job at this. If you can match this or do better I would be so happy.

One thing I didn't like about ESO was how weapons gave you the skills, I do prefer class only skills But I'm not sure how you're going to deal with Any Non-Ranger Class using bows. I'll leave that up to your design teams and leave feedback when appropriate.

avoxia

My biggest concern is the combat not feeling impactful and fluid, I've played too many games that offer a "mix" but neither ends up feeling good to play. Personally I prefer more action focused combat like that of Blade and Soul, I want to almost forget I'm pressing buttons!

Vhaeyne

Personally, it is a case by case situation. I love good combat, but I also like to win. I would never handicap myself on a highly competitive battlefield.

Tab-target(TT) abilities generally have less risk than Action based or Action combat(AC) skills. In most RPG systems it is considered important to do everything you can to make sure that your attacks land on their targets as much as possible. Otherwise you are wasting opportunity's that could be used to deal damage. TT systems will generally have a internal check that involves a random number generator to simulate a miss chance. With AC systems this simulation is not needed because the player is manually taking the action of aiming into their own hands.

If there is a situation where a TT skill is both easier to hit with, and consistently deals more damage than a AC skill of similar functionality. My incentive to use the AC skill over the TT skin in this situation would be very low. Otherwise I am just handicapping myself.

TT is extremely reliable. In some MMORPGs miss chance is not even a thing that gets considered due to the way gear works at max level. If it is possible for a players accuracy to be so high in AOC that they never have to worry about trade offs in their character build or putting stats to improve accuracy on their gear. The high accuracy available when using TT skills would really devalue AC skills.

If AC skills have a 100% ignore accuracy checks and hits are based on collisions between the players hitbox and the spells hit box than AC skills would have an appeal based on the sizes of the hit boxes involved. Again it is a case by case situation for choosing skills.

Balance in MMORPGs is a holy grail that I don't think has ever been truly found. Some have come close, but I don't think anyone has ever said that a MMORPG has perfect balance. Since AOC will not revolve around skill rotations and will let us choose what skills are best to use at what time. It is important that both AC and TT skills are functional and appealing, but their has to be some sort of trade off. There has to be a incentive to use a more risky move.

Not having skill rotations is great for Ashes because it will allow the game designers to look at what skills are being used and what skills are being ignored. They can then apply buffs or nerfs as needed to keep the AC and TT skills comparable. I would really like to see a system where I have to put a lot of thought into picking between AC and TT.

I would like to be in a situation where I want to pick mostly AC skills, but their is enough reward to make me take the risk for using them.

Chocometeor

I prefer TAB-Target fights because you can better choose who you attack and dont have to worry to miss all the time. I think its more chilled and i hate when too much action combat stuff flies around and people hit in the air and stuff.
ALSO i hope the ''dodge roll'' wont be a BIG THING i saw Steven doing it in the last Monthly Update Video and i just hope not everybody is dodge rolling around the whole fight like in Witcher 3 combat or smth like that. meh.

BUT i think Hybrid Combat is good if you have to aim with some High Dmg Spells or Aoe Spells.
Thank you AoC team im very excited!
(sorry for my bad english)

ZiZiJaz

It will entirely depend on the pros and cons of each. For example are some skills longer range for rangers by using action? Versus shorter range for tab? Things like that will depend from class to class, and focus of that class be it pvp, or pve depending on if there are pros and cons to each given situation...

bloodandthunder

I'm pretty sure there's a happy medium between tab targeting and action combat, but not quite sure how it would fit in an MMO. Essentially, I'm referring to the classic Z-Target system in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The idea is either:

A) Have a combat option in a user menu that can be toggled on/off that will tell your camera to focus on whoever your targeting by clicking on them, that means that your camera moves when the target moves, not the other way around.

Pressing Tab after you've clicked on an enemy player will toggle the camera lock on them, so when they move the camera will automatically rotate. You can press tab again to toggle the "Z Targeting" off at any time.

Thorough

I much prefer tab tagetting. It allows me to watch the battle with a stable camera rather than swinging my reticle all over the place. Particularly for ranged classes I feel there's more stategy in tab tagetting. I love being able to switch between a dozen targets on the fly (both enemies and allies).

Action is fine though and since you're planning to have a server in Australia I won't be upset if I have to aim every now and then.

T Elf

For me it's tab based because it's easier for me as I am not so young anymore and it was one reason I Kickstarted because it was billed as a tab target game.

halbarz

to be honest for anything related to hybrid combat, just look at Gw2. Gw2 managed to make it enjoyable for every kind of player and I would argue that is one of the best combat systems in the MMO genre at this moment.

Personally, I think ESO failed when it comes to action combat. For some reason playing ESO, the combat is the one thing that bores me. The same goes for BDO.

Wuna

Action. I feel action based combat is a lot more fun

Yjovain

In terms of Ashes’ hybrid combat system - where do you think you’ll be speccing your character?
>I plan to play rogue, from other games this class generally requires high mobility.
Majority action based skills?
>Yes
Majority tab-based skills?
>No
An even mix of both?
>Potentially
Why?
>Imo action-based combat does, in some cases, add an extra level of mechanical skill. I find it more fun to play with this play style. I find tab targeting clunky even in larger games like WoW. It makes the most sense, to me, to "point" an ability and have it hit rather than locking onto the target.

Vellety

I love both, but find tab targeting to be more convenient at times. As for examples, I love WoW tab target and BDO or TERA action combat. Not sure how to mix them together, most important is the fluidity though
Most likely I will be going majority tab target skills because that's what i'm mostly playing right now in other games. But who knows.

Cold 0ne FTB

From what I have seen the two biggest motivators with skills is the strength of the skill and the appearance of the skill. Most really good players will build a setup that follows the meta. They wont care as much about the mixing of skills. This of course will mean that a lot of care will need to be taken on balance. Tab targetting my guarantee a hit where as action might be more flexible and easier to react to. Removing headshots was a good step in the right direction. With cosmetics I think you are already doing a good job. Just add some more variety, maybe change the colors or looks of skills depending on the archtype. Anything along those lines will appeal more towards a casual crowd but it is important to remember that.

Elpherus

I prefer Action based, love combats where you try to hit something with your aim, susceptible to misses... Gives more sense of "i need to do this correctly" than tab based... Also, i'm a rogue player, and i love to dodge and escape attacks with my own skills, tab oriented guys would destroy my gun there xD
But as everything doesn't have to be my way, i'm ok this hybrid combat, since there will be someone happy either way(Or not, if some declare war to the other side).

Neurotoxin

I can't say til I play. I like being able to plop a fireball between a group of targets like I'd do in a TTRPG, but it is nice to know I can also tab target with things that may otherwise miss like a thin beam.

My big worry is not being able to toggle which version I'm using on the fly. Unless I'm mistaken, it will require an augment to make it go from the normal version to the alternate targeting version, which means I have to access a build NPC or being a safe-to-respec zone.

Though if targeting is an issue, tab may ultimately be the way to go. I plan to make the shortest Nikua that the character creator will allow, so I can use my allies as cover, or be tougher to spot and hit behind low cover and obstacles. If I suffer a reach disadvantage for it, so be it, I don't think I'll be playing a melee primary anyway.

Leroher

I prefer action, but a hybrid one would be nice too, I just want something, as many said before, responsive and fun. High mobility is something I'm looking for too, as a future Rogue/Mage.

edit: I would prefer also less skills to use from a big pool, so I have to choose which skills I pick for my build. I'm not talking about 4 skills like a Moba, but the number GW2 has it's perfect imo, even wanting a few less skills too.

Susnow

Action Cobat

DaveN

I will spec whatever is good i guess, I'll end up min maxing anyways, gotta stay competitive
Overall I do prefer action combat though.
I'd hope for AOC to have a similar skill trigger system to BDO.
You could either place them traditionally in the hotbar, or trigger them by using combinations of W/A/S/D/LMB/RMB/Q/E/R/F/C/Shift/Ctrl.
This allowed for higher combat fluidity and integrated directional skills seamlessly.
It also allowed for the same key to trigger different skills, as part of different combinations - something that can't be achieved by simply assigning single keystrokes.

It set a new bar for action combat in my eyes, increasing the skillcap even further, without affecting more casual players, since the hotbar remained as a way to trigger skills. I would love to see a similar system in AOC.

Meat Vegetable

I will most likely be doing mostly Action skills and probably be annoyed that I have to have targeted skills since I've never liked any targeted combat, soft targeting felt intuitive and was something I liked so if I could have action and soft targeted skills then I'd be less annoyed.

synnercy

This game needs Action combat. There is so many people who love everything about what the game will have to offer, but will legit give it a miss if the combat system is poor and outdated, which tab targeting is.

joaaocaampos

This is the first time that I comment on this forum. Because this is the most important topic for me.

In my opinion, GW2's combat is the first step. But it's not the last.

There are many other more fun and better hybrid combats, which some consider to be action. But it's not. It's hybrid!

The target system of Neverwinter (a western MMORPG) is very good. Again, I'm talking about the target system, not the combat system! Neverwinter's target system is very dynamic, practical and combines well with a hybrid system. Like GW2 and most tab-targeting MMORPGs, a red circle is below the target. This circle, as is known, indicates that such a target is the target. And this circle appears automatically on the target that is directly in front of the player. This does not happen in GW2. In GW2, you need to hit the skill button to target. Thus, Neverwinter's target system ends up working very well for hybrid combat.

Another MMORPG (which has not yet been officially released) is Elyon. And Elyon adopted a hybrid combat system. The target system is very similar, but it seems to be even more fluid, dynamic and fun.

Anyway... As much as many action combat lovers appreciate hit boxes, I don't think this will work in AoC, mainly because there will be target skills. No hit box. The target in front of you is the target and it's over.

The dodging system can work similar to GW2, only better. An active dodge or roll dodge can also decrease damage to target abilities. The moment you dodge, you don't take damage. But... you can include a passive dodge in this system. "When you press dodge button and roll dodge to the side, you have a 15% chance of not taking any damage from that target ability."

What I hate is having to press a button (Tab) to set or switch targets. This could be dynamic, as I said above, even with the target skills.

About healing and other beneficial skills, and if I'm going to use the mouse to heal, to choose the target of healing in the group UI, I'm a fan of mouseover. That is, I don't need to click on the target or click on the name in the group window, I just need to mouseover it and press the skill button.

I have a lot more to say. But that's it for now. Thank you.

Edit... AoC AC system needs to look likes:
* ESO and Neverwinter TARGET system.
* Dragon Nest and Vindictus COMBAT system.

IcipherV

Hi, I would like to start off by pointing to the definitions of what TT (Tab Target) and what AC (Action Combat) is – not according to me, but – according to Steven:

TT = “Something that you MUST have a target for”

AC = “Anything that can be utilized through placement of the player, such as a reticle, a ground template or a directional placement”

(source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep5Dsglari8&t=2283s)

According to Steven’s definition an ability like “Blizzard or Cone of Cold” from WoW is AC. This is something that I disagree with, because AC isn’t JUST about targeting an ability, but the gameplay that is created by doing so (aiming, dodging, juking, etc). TT and AC have different skill requirements as well, TT has high decision-making skill requirement, as it requires the user to be cognoscente of their and their target’s abilities and use the right abilities at the right time to overcome the challenge. That is also present to AC (perhaps to a lesser extent) but AC also has a very high mechanical skill requirement, not only do you need to know that the enemy has a stun with X cooldown, but also quickly react to it and dodge it. In order to achieve that AC games have A LOT of movement, which brings me to my next point.

A combat system and class design are very much intertwined, one informs the other. Games with AC come with very high mobility baked in to the classes, in fact most of your damaging abilities come with some sort of movement for the character. TT games don’t have nearly as much movement. This is important because the two styles of combat are conflicting and make for an unfitting and unfun experience when combined.

From the class preview videos that you have posted so far, most of the abilities seem to be slow casts, that root you in place with very limited mobility. At the same time Steven has said that AC abilities will come with higher throughput and hard CC as they have inherently higher risk and therefore higher reward. That’s great on paper but in reality we end up with a game where players that like TT are essentially sitting ducks while casting their 2+ seconds cast time abilities making for extremely easy targets, which means that a large portion of the risk of missing an AC ability is gone but the reward is still there. On the other hand, players that like AC will seemingly not have as much movement – which is what makes AC fun in my opinion – and they will not be able to dodge all of the target locked abilities making that aspect of AC obsolete. That will result in non-satisfied players in both sides – not to mention the hell that will be balancing.

I believe that you should pick either one of the combat styles and focus on that one and only that one. Judging from the direction of your class design I would think TT since everything seems to be rather slow paced.

As an AC fan, I will say that I would rather play a game with AoC’s systems and good TT combat, than a game with AoC’s systems and mediocre or outright boring AC – especially if I’m forced to do at least 25% TT. Thanks for taking the time to read this!

Amar

I'll start by saying i believe Ashes will blend the options beautifully from everything I've seen. That said since i enjoy ranged weapons, out of the direct frey, i'll probably skill up those action target skills first and to higher levels...however for Rogue/Ranger type of a character a couple good tabs would do nicely for when things get out of hand...lol. Lookin forward to seeing Rogue skills in full that will help inform my choices in the end. Ranger already is lookin good... as an example i'd think ranger Fleeting shot and Hail of Arrows will probably be tab based since they're both kinda ooh dammit this went south kinda reactions. Others like Bows Combo, Flame Line and Knockback shot i'd think would be more action based target. Anyway my 2 Cents... Lookin forward to A2

Intremour

I prefer action combat as it's more engaging as well as more fitting for a game focused on risk v reward.

Gegyen

Most of my MMO experience is with tab targeting so that is most comfortable for me but I am willing to play around with both and see what I like in AOC.

FuryBladeborne

I want to go for full spec AC, but I will have to see how the systems are designed. For me, AC is much more fun to play; and, there is no reason that AC abilities cannot have all the same effects as TT abilities. So, AC could play the same as TT with aiming involved.

There are many ways that TT could be balanced with AC.
TT could generally be lower DPS than AC, and both would have good movement, However, TT could also have some abilities that are slow cast while rooted in place that can be spammed or chained to together to approximately equal AC DPS. This would mean that TT could become an easy target for AC shots, but do about equal damage. i.e. TT auto hits, and AC practically auto hits them since they stand still, damage about equal to one another.

TT and AC could have flat out different playstyles where TT is just a generally slower movement and posisibly slower skill activation play while AC could have more skills to increase movement, more evasion skills, more instant skills, etc.; but, both output about equal damage if AC lands all or close to all shots. So, playing TT gives auto hit skills but also makes the player easy to hit with AC skills. This makes the difference between AC and TT: auto hit your targets and be pretty much auto hit by both TT and AC; or, play fast with a lot of movement but have the additional challenge of aiming to hit your target.

TT and AC could have identical descriptions and damage listed in abilities. However, TT could have an automatic percent chance to miss(separate from any armor or other character bonuses such as dodge stat if it exists) while AC does not have this chance. Then, AC is rewarded for being more accurate than TT RNG and the best selection would be based on player aiming skill vs. the RNG chance to hit on TT skills. An option to select the chance to hit could be based on the average hit rate of players using the same skill in AC version and then increasing that hit rate by enough to be challenging for AC players to beat.

I'm sure there are more options, I only listed what I could think of that does not require a large DPS difference between AC and TT.