Dev Discussion #28 - Hybrid Combat

Gundel

If the direction of hard CC is still being locked behind action combat we will be forced into more action-based, as CC is king in PVP. Once again depends on the values associated with action vs tab if one is higher overall dmg/mitigated dmg/Healing the community will shift towards that side it's up to Intrepid to juggle that Balancing act.

Gamers will pick whatever is the more efficient way of play usually is.

Riley

I'll fill my ability bar with the best skills. Have no idea what they'll be till the game comes out.

Voidwalkers

If I play melee, I'll probably spec action-heavy.

As ranged, probably tab-heavy, while keeping a few action abilities handy for survival or other situational uses.

Tyrakkel

I'm reminded of games like Elite Dangerous having turret/gimball/fixed weapons that fulfill a similar role in spaceship combat. Monster Hunter has lock-on functionality. In an MMO context, I think it creates natural checks/balances to meta development, but my primary concern is mobility creep. It would be very easy to stack movement speed increases to make strafing an effective counter to action-combat abilities having stronger effects, meanwhile you can run tab-target and have no issues hitting back. Yuck. I'd almost say that slower player movement/moving naturally slower in combat is almost necessary for this not to feel awful. Dodge-rolling doesn't feel like an appropriate function in a hybrid combat environment.

What will I play? It depends. We don't know enough about archetype kits for me to make a solid statement. Aiming to play a Fighter, thinking of my weapon choice affecting my swing arc, stabbing spears and sweeping axes! Something like, an action-combat swing that causes my character to roll in a direction-- My ability to manipulate that skill leads to enjoyable skill expression, MUCH moreso than everyone having a dodge-roll. But then, running an ability as action-combat purely because that's the most optimal choice for damage dealing is the least appealing idea possible. I'd rather tab-target and guarantee a snare, than action-combat and potentially miss a stun. The idea intrigues me, but again, it depends on what is available in my kit. I wouldn't be sad if hybrid combat got dropped in favor of pure tab-target. Pure action combat would give me some pause, but we're back to it depends.

If I can swap freely, I will absolutely prefer tab-targetting during casual gameplay, and up the action level as I expect more PvP, then back toward tab-targetting as I expect more players involved in PvP due to latency conerns. Though I like to kill mobs mindlessly when leveling. Please don't force me to think to kill quest mobs, I like watching movies

Mowaby

I don't know how bards work yet but I will pick whatever feels fun to use.

George_Black

I think many tab abilities should focus on PvE.
When it comes to chilling with friends, lving up or farming parts for gear craft, nothing beats tab/targeting with /attack (auto atk target).

Also, action abilities should focus on PvP. You cant have ranged builds pew pew pew on a locked target.
When it comes to PvP nothing beats action combat. Ever since it was introduced in mmos, the feeling when you perform those amazing skills of your character and win over your enemies, is so good. I rly feel like I am in there, dealing the blows.

During boss fights active combat is also exciting. I don't care for trash mobs in a dungeon, nobody does after the first run.

Zephirius

I'm not entirely sure this is a fair question. Alpha 1 has not begun yet, let alone the official launch. If history has anything to say, though, I'd say probably tab would comprise most of my abilities. That's mainly because most of the MMOs I have played (heck, maybe all) were purely tab. In Ashes I will want to explore all abilities, action and tab, so for me it's too early to say.

George_Black

The task of having a hybrid system must be difficult.
Mmos are much more than combat. I enjoy action combat but no matter how good it is I won't stick around an mmo for it.
Bdo? Gone. Eso? Gone.

I believe that IS should stick to one of the two and actually focus on the identity of the classes and the uniqueness of using different weapons.

If you choose to go with tab just make sure to infuse mobility to it with things like gap closers, gap openers, pushes and pulls. It's 2021

Sneakz

I am super keen for both, Enjoy action but also would love to be able to tab through targets.

Dreoh

I strongly feel a True Hybrid akin to GW2 or ESO (In ESO you can tab target aim any of your abilities even if it's not widely used by the players) is much preferable over a separate hybrid system that Ashes is said to be taking, where some skills are "Action" aimed and some are "Tab" aimed.

All skills should function the same, but be able to be aimed in both control options. This is something that GW2 and ESO both do well. All skills in both games will fire at the tab target, but also will fire where you aim at in action camera mode.

Edit: Hell if you were to do a Wildstar-like combat system that'd be amazing too. Wildstar's combat was unique and widely loved, though it'd be up for debate if it would fit this game.

ditham

For me personally it all depends on how it feels though i might be 50/50 though or maybe tab with some skill shots in here and there but it all depends on how the skills feel and how responsive they are. Also i was thinking say you have a dot going on some one and you used it on action mode its does alot more damage but have less duration than tab target where you can fire and forget to the target. Just a thought on what Dreoh said is all.

ZombieHeart

not sure where else to put this, just wanted to let you know I get real excited to have waterfalls in video games that I can walk through and there is a cave or something behind it. Please let this type of thing come to life behind most waterfall. would be really cool to make it the only entrance to a town too

Decimus

I would prefer to mostly utilize action combat, but realistically it'll probably wind up being "which one is better DPS or more efficient".

I hope Intrepid does a good job balancing out the two.

Ragnek

Action Combat, nothing really tops off a great experience like live action combat!

ChaosFactor

What's most important to me when it comes to the Hybrid combat system is strength in either form of gameplay. This of course introduces a LOT of balancing that needs to be addressed.

Obviously you want there to be some kind of reward when to comes to skillshot based combat, because if the stronger way to play the game is to not aim and just tab combat, then nobody would play action based. Thing is, you can't overtune these skillshot abilities, because we still want the Boomer APM players (Steven) ((p.s. I'm sorry I love you Steven)) to be able to compete in the game. If action based combat is just that strong, people like skillshot heavy assassins would just delete slower caster mages before they even get the option to play.

That being said there HAS to be some kind of reward when it comes to landing insane combo'd action abilities should reward you with the potential to destroy people lacking the outplay. Stereotypically, when it comes to 3rd person spell based combat they balancing that comes with tab targeting over action based is some form of CC. Consider frost mage, that regularly have little to no skillshots, and make up for the lack of burst damage with cc and slow kiting.

Going hand in hand with all of the prior statements, certainly classes pair beautifully with certain degrees of either tab targeting or action based. Classes like rogue and fighter can lean heavily on high mobility to gap close on ranged classes then stay on top of them.

Now for me.
I'm sorry I know I talk too much.

Personally, I am going to playing either Shadowlord, Shadowmancer, or Assassin. Yes, I love stealth and assassination. But more importantly than stealth and damage, as they can easily be provided by stat and item design, mobility is key.

What makes me feel like a badass Rogue is the ability to dodge, dive and flip through the battlefield. Using a specific example from WoW, rogue has always felt lack luster to me. You walk through stealth, you get up close to them, then you stand still and wack them 1000 times until they die, throwing in a kidney shot every now and then. That's why I personally main a warrior, because they carry with them that satisfaction to be able to constantly chase down the enemy, or in a stick, being able to dive away.

Skillshot based mobility is always going to be high risk high reward. If you land the perfect line up, and the perfect distance, you can place yourself exactly where you need to be in combat. Miss even a little bit, and you're standing in the middle of two tanks and you get pummeled into rogue paste.

To me that is a very naturally balanced form of combat, and paired with shadow to me creates an incredibly beautiful motif. Slipping through the shadows and executing perfect application of damage as you slip out of them is the true fantasy assassin that I feel many players are going to want to feel.

If any fellow Ashes Devoted or Devs made it through my textbook of a post, I truly appreciate that and hopefully I can get some conversation or constructive criticism about it!

Thank you ladies and gentlemen,
Chaos

TokenGamer

I'm definitely looking forward to trying a blend of both, my only concern is with switching between the normal cam and the action combat cam. Is it going to be necessary to use the action cam to use the action skills? If not is the normal cam going to be flexible enough to make casting those action skills feel really fluid and like you can actually hit your target? I know a blended combat system is tough, I just hope it turns out well.

Robn

I will mostly use tab targeting with the exception of action combat skills that MAINTAIN 3RD PERSON perspective. I believe GW2 has the best hybrid combat out of any MMO and my preferences are close to that.

In my opinion, action combat that utilizes the 1st person perspective puts you at a disadvantage because of the limited field of view around you. In MMOs, you need to be able to see all information concerning telegraphed abilities, and enemies coming up behind you.

IF, and only if, AoC manages to make 1st person skills feel fluid with no competitive disadvantages or clunkiness, then I would use them.

vorch21

Majority tab-based skills, prefers tactical(less reflexive) combat with many skills(aka Everquest/Daoc).

Sarevok

Action combat. After playing tab targeting combat for over two decades I am a firm supporter of action.

Songcaller

We need the ability to key bind 40 players. I dont know how I will spec because I havent seen a single skill for Bard right now. 40 keybinds will assist support classes with single target abilities.

I dont see how a 75-25 split will be possible with 10 skills or 30 skills unless one ability is both action and tab at the same time.

Camber

I prefer Action. High risk, high reward. But not so complicated like BDO

RainFae

As a casual gamer who wants to be immersed i find it hard to do that with tab target combat cause you can't really do it zoomed in, so it feels like i am away from the action and someone else is playing for me.

So i definitely will go for as much action combat (preferably 3rd person) cause i wanna be front seat in the fun, feel those hits and be worry about what or who could be behind me, trying to predict hits and avoiding them.

I know that the best hybrid combat in an mmo is gw2 as far as i know but my problem with it is the camera as i mentioned. I love the toggle of locking your crusor on your screen (like a bdo kind of thing) in one of the videos you showed your current work on your system and that's what i was talking about, i hope that's the direction you will take with it and hopefully you can make it work as a hybrid to appeal to almost everyone.

Best of luck either way🌈

Also since weapons are not class locked i would looove to have the option to use a shied as a summoner and be able to block abilities 😋

Favst

Putting entirely on action combat from the mmorpg game becomes a moba or battleground. Imagine a raid in which your teammates try to kill the boss and dodge, run around to avoid getting hit and you must somehow hit them with your healing skills, nightmare. I am able to agree that tab targeting is a bit dated and needs a refresh, so a hybrid system might be a good option. Skills that require a longer cast time should work on the tab, including those that give "hard cc" and all spells that heal single units, also buffs. All skills that deal high damage, AoE skills, all those with low cast speed, should go into action combat, then we will avoid the situation that someone is killed in 3 seconds "on a combo", without being able to avoid these skills, the attacker also has a chance to miss.
You have to think how dodges and camera would work in the case of the hybrid combat system and it should be ok.

DezzRevas

Tab target is my preference. Action is fun but boss mechanics can only be pushed to the limit in a tab target system. Raiders need complicated razor thing margins to test them to be the best they can be.

Action combat is flashy and fast paced but limits healing among other jobs. Do I stand as a group and drop aoe heals everywhere or do I get to actually strategize placement and timing of heals.

Pvp can be impactful with tab target, yeah you can't done well but that's what knowing your class kit and using the right ability at the right moment is for.

Kionashi

Action combat is the most engaging system, just because the skill is action oriented doesn't means it can't have the dept or the complexity of a tab skill.

neeko2lo

Tab targeting is a relic of the past. Having very specific exceptions for very specific abilities (some healing abilities come to mind) can make the game feel more responsive and especially in bigger fights less hectic.
But growing the game on the basis of Tab targeting is a bad call no matter from what angle you look at it.
Tab targeting does not allow for enough control and expression to be considered a good solution in the modern era.
At the end of the day, metas will form, if the tab targeting abilites are superior in most cases people that prefer action combat will be inevitably forced to resort to tab target abilites. Tab targeting also comes with consistency which is in many cases an imperative to good performance.
If Ashes wants to become the #1 MMO of the future all of the above has to be considered.

Crowigor

I plan to play as the Fighter archetype, so I prefer action skills.
It is much more convenient and dynamic to play in close combat without using tab.
And when using skills like charge, it is more convenient to choose a target in advance.

Sent

Assuming all abilities are equally effective in both modes, I'll spec more into action.
But I assume that some classes/builds will end up preferring one mode more than the other, because of gameplay.

daveywavey

I'll likely be choosing the skills that do what I want, regardless of their type. In the event of a tie, it'll probably come down to how good I am at using your action-combat functionality. If I can't handle it, I'll be using mainly tab-targeted. If I can handle it, then I'll be open for both.

However, I'm expecting to find the tab-targeting skills to be more practical and easier to use. Not having to aim at them means a higher chance of hitting with the skill, and gives more freedom of movement due to not having to focus on aiming.

I'm interested to see what effect better rigs/better internet connections have on both types of combat.

wollz

It depends of how confident you are in your skill to create a good combat system.
tab targeting is a well established combat system very popular over most mmorpgs. if you want combat that will be safe and will most likely work tab targeting is the way. if tab targeting is picked you need a lot of abilities and combat systems like (procs, combos..) the important part is that you have a lot of abilities. because tab targeting is very static you need players to constantly be thinking about what to do next. That will only come to life when a wide selection of abilities is of players disposal. you needs cc and you need cc breakers, movement skills, out of combat class utilities. you need fluent combat not big a long GCD, most classes should have a a window of time with increased damage/healing on demand. do not string class buffs like burst cooldowns into the GCD. that destroys combat. make sure that the windows of increased damage is different for every class . they could have very short windows but many of them or they could have one big one. Power should warry ofc. you should be able to move while casting on some abilities, or they could increase your speed after casting .lets say that casting fireball makes your lava storm instant cast and that would be random. or you lighting bolt makes your prismatic beam deal damage 2x faster. fireball could proc your fire abilities to be instant cast. lightning bolt could proc your lightning damage abilities to be instant cast. combat needs to be fast. if it is slow you can wave the combat goodbye.

Action is a big risk to take. we don't have a lot of mmos with good action and compared to tab targeting it feels worse. i have only played gw2 and black desert with action so i can't talk much. black deserts combat feels good while gw2 combat feels clunky.

hybrid combat has never been done before in a successful way. the only mmo is GW2 and even in gw2 the combat feels bad. i wouldn't want to see aoc go the hybrid way.

if you try and please everyone you will end up pleasing no one. people will be mad that action will be bad or that tab targeting is useless in pve, that in pvp action skills are harder to use and are not worth the pick.

I want tab targeting because it is the safe way to go and with it you shouldn't have a hard time.DO NOT MAKE THE COMBAT SLOW.