In my experience there a much more guild drama around ninja looting and bad loot councils than drama around the dps meters.
And much more pick up group drama and toxicity around it as well.
Selective outrage...
Combat tracker tells the truth, and the truth sometimes hurt </3
0
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am apposed to combat trackers much for the reasons already expressed.
If addon`s and/or 3rd party apps, in what ever form, for what ever purpose, are not permitted; then quite simply to use contrary to the intention of the game rules/regulation is as plain as cheating in my book.
And anyone known to act as those zones in L2 would be griefed regularly and repeatedly in my l2 days.
If they are permitted, then I hope they have blockers for the below reasoning as I sense the focus has been on pve only and insular pve. So in addition to the reasoning, I propose a number of other scenarios whereby I believe trackers can be counter productive to game status and something you would fight to have blocked.
Explained through example, when I played L2, there were occasions were despite being in a war with another clan, I was invited to join an enemy`s group to
a) attend a raid, where my level and class was instrumental to the required overall multi-party makeup and was in group with the enemy
b) fight along side in group with a clan we were at war with, against a greater enemy temporarily
c) as a ring-in to fill a certain class need for general xp, despite a war tag up...
Now in all 3 scenarios, neither I nor the enemy clan would have been pleased to share any stats to the other despite a temporary selective ceasefire. By providing those stats through a combat tracker would take away would be intel later possibly used the wrong way.
a) attend a raid, where my level and class was instrumental to the required overall multi-party makeup and was in group with the enemy
b) fight along side in group with a clan we were at war with, against a greater enemy temporarily
c) as a ring-in to fill a certain class need for general xp, despite a war tag up...
This is a part of the reason why my suggestion for about 3 years now has been a combat tracker that is a guild perk, and only works on the members of that guild.
This is enough to stop the development of third party trackers, and leaves basically every potential issue with combat trackers (real or imagined) behind.
a) attend a raid, where my level and class was instrumental to the required overall multi-party makeup and was in group with the enemy
b) fight along side in group with a clan we were at war with, against a greater enemy temporarily
c) as a ring-in to fill a certain class need for general xp, despite a war tag up...
This is a part of the reason why my suggestion for about 3 years now has been a combat tracker that is a guild perk, and only works on the members of that guild.
This is enough to stop the development of third party trackers, and leaves basically every potential issue with combat trackers (real or imagined) behind.
your generalization for group leaders just do not match my experience in any mmo. For the past (soon) two years I have played wow classic everyday, and my general experience is that group leaders are NOT toxic. And even before that when I played ESO I didn´t find group leaders to be toxic because of the dps meters. Yes, they do exist and I have encountered them, but I do not think much about them since I will never never group with
them again.
I acknowledge that. I am not invalidating your experience. It doesn't really alter my opinion.
Our experiences differ, so we disagree on percentage of occurrence.
My experience leads me to believe that the frequency of the occurrence is high enough that MMORPGs are better off without combat trackers (for all the reasons Steven mentioned; not just due to toxicity.)
Your experience tells you that the frequency of the occurrence is low enough that it's a non-issue.
I accept that. We don't have to agree on that. But, Steven trumps both of us. Steven believes that the frequency with which "it can create a toxic dynamic...excluding players from raids and/or content" is high enough that he doesn't want it in the game - and he's the one making the decision what makes it into the game and what doesn't.
Your claim that casual players won't care is false. Because casual players do care. Also, Steven cares and he's not a casual player, so it's not just casual players who care; non-casual players care.
We don't have exact numbers, so there is no way for us to prove which of us factually have the greater numbers. But that doesn't really matter.
Enough players care and feel negatively about the result, in general, that Steven doesn't want combat trackers in the game.
Sorry but I don´t really follow what you mean with "but I continue to blame reliance on the DPS meter causing the toxic behavior.", maybe I´m reading it wrong xD
I'm a Boomer, so....I apologize in advance...
I went to college in a tiny town in TN, but my credit union was back home/home in DC.
I would occasionally call the credit union to transfer money to my checking account in TN.
One day, I called to make the same kind of transaction I had been making periodically for a couple of years, only to be told, "I'm sorry, but that town does not exist."
"OK. But, I'm standing in the town. How can I prove to you that the town exists?"
"I can only go by what the computer tells me and the computer has no record of that town existing."
"So....what do I do?"
"I don't know, but I can't help you."
What you're saying is that it's not the tool that is making the bank teller unhelpful. Rather, she was an unhelpful person before she got that computer. Even without that computer, she would have been unhelpful. The computer had nothing to do with it because the computer is just a tool. The computer cannot be unhelpful.
And I'm saying that I don't agree that the bank teller was an unhelpful person before she got that computer.
Relying on the information she's getting from the computer is making her unhelpful (in this situation).
And it is definitely a negative experience for me. And I definitely care that it's a negative experience for me.
Part of what I've been saying is that I don't even necessarily agree that the combat tracker is giving truly reliable data - which is why Steven refers to that as mechanical bullshit.
I am a carebear pacifist who tries to avoid killing stuff as much as possible when I play RPGs. Not because I suck at combat, but because I'm a carebear pacifist in real life and that carries over to when I play games.
Back in the day when I would play Warcraft 2 in the office, my Activision buddies would tell me to kill the tiny garter snakes. "Why? Does it give me xp? Is it going to attack me?" "No. Because it's funny!" I'm definitely not killing stuff just because it's funny.
When I participate in PvP, I prefer it to be objective-based PvP. I'm willing to spend some time playing capture-the-flag PvP occasionally. When I did this in NWO, I focused on capturing the flags as many times as possible.
Flags were at least twice the points as kills. So, I would stand at the flags. I would let people kill me while I'm at the flag if they wanted to and then race to the next flag. Lots of times people would waste time duking it out while off of the flags because they were more focused on kills than they were on flags. More often than not, my team would win - I would be at the top of the deaths list but also at the top of the flags list. And those doubled points would be significant. Still, there would be times when people would be screaming at me, why aren't you fighting? It's because it's actually more cost efficient to focus on the flags than it is on the kills.
I play MMORPGs for the RP factor; not for the uber-elitist-Gamer factor. I don't care what the numbers of a combat tracker show. I don't need them to evaluate combat. When a combat tracker reports low numbers, I want to know what other things that player might have been doing that were helpful to the overall battle that wasn't captured numerically. Because just because something helpful the players was doing wasn't captured in the numerical data doesn't mean that something helpful didn't exist.
Since I am primarily around for RP with friends, as long as the "story" of the battle is fun, it's fine to carry people who kinda suck at combat.
I have a game designer friend who is the worst gamer I have ever seen, consistently, across numerous games. Probably because he's always high when he's gaming. But, he is always fun to play with, so we all will compensate for his lack of combat skills. We have never needed to rely on combat trackers to eventually devise winning strategies - which is good because the games we play don't have combat trackers.
And, because we also play D&D together, we prefer to play the old skool way Steven refers to: we organically watch what is happening during battles and use trial and error to tweak our tactics, rather than numerically analyzing and trying to increase numbers.
Steven is also an avid table-top RPG player - Pathfinder for sure - so he wants to put the RP back into MMORPG. And focusing on the numbers in a combat tracker detracts from that.
Especially when people use data from the combat tracker to decide things like, "Hey, Summoner/Summoner gives us the highest array of numbers, so you can't be a Necromancer anymore, you need to switch to Conjurer!"
You may think that casual players won't care about that, but actually many casual players will. And a whole bunch of RPers will as well. And...in this case...Steven wants players to have the freedom to play the class they want, rather than to be told they must switch because the combat trackers numbers indicate that's the most efficient build. Because Ashes is an MMORPG and a player's freedom of class choice and build config is a core value in RPGs.
You can always start your own group/guild were you can make the rules to fit your playstyle
That is true only to the extent that the rest of my group are always playing when I am. Which, frequently is not the case.
I acknowledge that. I am not invalidating your experience. It doesn't really alter my opinion.
Our experiences differ, so we disagree on percentage of occurrence.
My experience leads me to believe that the frequency of the occurrence is high enough that MMORPGs are better off without combat trackers (for all the reasons Steven mentioned; not just due to toxicity.)
Your experience tells you that the frequency of the occurrence is low enough that it's a non-issue.
I accept that. We don't have to agree on that. But, Steven trumps both of us. Steven believes that the frequency with which "it can create a toxic dynamic...excluding players from raids and/or content" is high enough that he doesn't want it in the game - and he's the one making the decision what makes it into the game and what doesn't.
And I disagree with him. From your comment I see that you do not know how a combat tracker works, and neither does Steven.
As you can see, EVERYTHING that happens during a fight is shown. EVERY key press, every ability, every buffs, everything. Not only dps, not only hps, everything.
Part of what I've been saying is that I don't even necessarily agree that the combat tracker is giving truly reliable data
So a combat tracker does give reliable data.
Your claim that casual players won't care is false. Because casual players do care. Also, Steven cares and he's not a casual player, so it's not just casual players who care; non-casual players care.
We don't have exact numbers, so there is no way for us to prove which of us factually have the greater numbers. But that doesn't really matter.
Enough players care and feel negatively about the result, in general, that Steven doesn't want combat trackers in the game.
do you care about what is shown in the combat tracker? My point is that only people that is semi-hardcore or hardcore will look at the combat tracker and care about it. Casual players will play the game and won't care about logging the fight and look at it afterwards.
That is true only to the extent that the rest of my group are always playing when I am. Which, frequently is not the case.
If you find a guild (or create a guild) and actively search for like minded people, you will always have people to play with.
I could get behind the idea of combat trackers being a guild perk only
Indeed.
It has been my argument for a very long time.
No one has found a single downside to it that holds up (Dygz thinks he has), Steven has read about the idea and said nothing at all about it, even though he was participating in the wider discussion.
That fact is a big part of the reason I believe Steven's comments on combat trackers have been made in bad faith.
Part of what I've been saying is that I don't even necessarily agree that the combat tracker is giving truly reliable data - which is why Steven refers to that as mechanical bullshit.
The data combat trackers give is the stat the game gives the combat tracker.
Steven simply can't take this perspective, as if it is his game we are talking about, the data the combat tracker gives us is the data he gives the combat tracker.
Thus, if he thinks the data the combat tracker gives us is unreliable, then that is because the data he gave the combat tracker is unreliable. As such, the "bullshit" in this situation comes from the game - comes from Steven - not the combat tracker.
Honestly, this is like saying a spreadsheet gives unreliable data - a combat is remarkably similar to a spreadsheet.
No combat trackers. AoC should focus on immersion and community-oriented gameplay, not data processing and hotkey rotations. For those who really care about how much damage they do, set a timer on your phone and start attacking a mob. Calculate how much health the monster has left after one minute.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
Combat trackers did not make or break GW2 at launch, or for the first few years when it was most popular. They did not come into play well after the game had already made a name for itself. Same as WoW and many other games.
Trackers did not dictate whether those games were successful at launch, they came in after the fact when players had discovered discovered basically all there was to discover, and now Min/Maxing was all that was left to make the game exciting.
Point to one MMO in the history of MMOs that failed at launch due to the lack of trackers and I will submit you are the winner.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't really care about loot rights. I'm a communist.
So you care about dps meters but not the toxic environment that can come from Master looting?
In my experience there a much more guild drama around ninja looting and bad loot councils than drama around the dps meters.
I haven't experienced toxicity from loot rights. As in, no arguments in the groups I've been in.
I have heard of people being upset when someone chooses Need and they don't actually need the gear.
Seems to me that people have fixes for that - as in choosing a different loot option.
If some dev said they weren't going to include Master loot as a loot option because it creates too much toxicity, I would not disagree with that.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker, unless you were literally just trying to squeeze the last .01% of damage out of your character. The first content might have been fractals, but they were easy as long as you put in the time to get the damage mitigation needed for the new DoT mechanic they put out.
I truly find it hard to believe that GW2 had a tracker problem that early on in the game. If you needed a tracker in that game... you pretty much just suck at video games and need to find a new hobby.
You still did not answer my last question... What MMO, in MMO history, failed at launch because it did not have trackers?
No combat trackers. AoC should focus on immersion and community-oriented gameplay, not data processing and hotkey rotations. For those who really care about how much damage they do, set a timer on your phone and start attacking a mob. Calculate how much health the monster has left after one minute.
How is something that you do not use during combat immersion breaking?
No combat trackers. AoC should focus on immersion and community-oriented gameplay, not data processing and hotkey rotations. For those who really care about how much damage they do, set a timer on your phone and start attacking a mob. Calculate how much health the monster has left after one minute.
How is something that you do not use during combat immersion breaking?
Self reflection and what you could have done better is immersion enhancing, someone telling you that their addon did the math and it says you suck, is immersion breaking.. even if it is after the fight.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker
I'm not saying there was.
I am saying people used them regardless.
That is like saying you used a calculator on math test where the answers were provided....
And you still have not answered my question pointed towards you in the last two posts I wrote....
No combat trackers. AoC should focus on immersion and community-oriented gameplay, not data processing and hotkey rotations. For those who really care about how much damage they do, set a timer on your phone and start attacking a mob. Calculate how much health the monster has left after one minute.
How is something that you do not use during combat immersion breaking?
Self reflection and what you could have done better is immersion enhancing, someone telling you that their addon did the math and it says you suck, is immersion breaking.. even if it is after the fight.
Once again, combat tracker isn't just a dps meter, Is so much more.
People telling you you suck will still be a thing, just like people bully each other in real life. Bad people exist in mmos aswell, just ignore them.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker
I'm not saying there was.
I am saying people used them regardless.
That is like saying you used a calculator on math test where the answers were provided....
And you still have not answered my question pointed towards you in the last two posts I wrote....
We do not need a combat tracker, we want it to analyze.
It's not like a calculator to a test with the answer, it's like an answer sheet with all solution and deep analysis around those answers. The analysis around the answer is not needed, but some people enjoy that.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How is something that you do not use during combat immersion breaking?
Because the analysis and suggestions for tweaking strategies is all from a numbers perspective.
"Your DPS numbers are low." "Your Healing numbers are low." The focus is all on what the numbers say.
Rather than discussing how to synergize abilities and augments and tactics based on the characters' organic observations during combat.
Steven wants to get closer to putting the RP back into MMORPG.
I dunno what you are expecting people to say. You get to maintain the few bad apples philosophy.
That's not convincing to the people who don't agree with you.
It's not going to change Steven's mind. What's the point of continuing to assert it?
I think we all understand what your perspective is, we just won't ever agree with it.
You want the tracker. Steven doesn't want the tracker. Since you don't need it, that should be fine.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker
I'm not saying there was.
I am saying people used them regardless.
That is like saying you used a calculator on math test where the answers were provided....
And you still have not answered my question pointed towards you in the last two posts I wrote....
We do not need a combat tracker, we want it to analyze.
It's not like a calculator to a test with the answer, it's like an answer sheet with all solution and deep analysis around those answers. The analysis around the answer is not needed, but some people enjoy that.
No offense, but those comments from me, were to Noanni and specifically about GW2... not just trackers in general. I do not mind that you responded, just that you were off topic.
Anyway.... Why do you all still feel like you have to explain to me what a tracker is?
I know what they are, I know what they do.
They help you become a better player.. that help, gives you an advantage over players who do not use them. So if you become a top guild in a game that does not allow trackers.. in the spirit of the game, you have basically cheated. Argue all you want.. that is literally what is happening.
I do not care that you like it, I do not care that it helps you... If it is not allowed, it is plainly not allowed. Now, I know people will still use them anyway, tis the nature of gaming.. Still does not mean I have to like it. We simply come from a different line of thinking of what a game is.. I play for the journey... you play for the end game. The issue with an MMO, is that they are designed for the journey, but players still rush to the end game... So much so, that MMOs have changed the way they make their games and make end game content. Games that focus on end game content from the start.. usually have no room to grow and end up disappointing their player base, as no one has really figured out what it should be. Some have come close... but no true solution.
So... have at it... dps your way to end game that will come to a screeching hault when PvP comes knocking on your door.. unless you plan to stick to the 20% instanced PvE which will not all be opened at the same time due to Nodes. I hope you enjoy your rinse repeat gaming
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker
I'm not saying there was.
I am saying people used them regardless.
That is like saying you used a calculator on math test where the answers were provided....
No.
It's more like saying many people used a combat tracker in an MMO on content that didn't need it, because many people just enjoy using combat trackers.
In fact, that is exactly what it is.
---
I didn't answer your question because literally no MMO has not had combat trackers availiable for it in some form at launch since at least before UO. I can't name an MMO that failed because it didn't have a combat tracker, because I can't name an MMO that didn't have a combat tracker.
UO had combat trackers, L2 had combat trackers (one of the guys that devloped a combat tracker for L2 is working on one for Ashes), even Runescape had combat trackers.
How is something that you do not use during combat immersion breaking?
Because the analysis and suggestions for tweaking strategies is all from a numbers perspective.
"Your DPS numbers are low." "Your Healing numbers are low." The focus is all on what the numbers say.
Rather than discussing how to synergize abilities and augments and tactics based on the characters' organic observations during combat.
Steven wants to get closer to putting the RP back into MMORPG.
I dunno what you are expecting people to say. You get to maintain the few bad apples philosophy.
That's not convincing to the people who don't agree with you.
It's not going to change Steven's mind. What's the point of continuing to assert it?
I think we all understand what your perspective is, we just won't ever agree with it.
You want the tracker. Steven doesn't want the tracker. Since you don't need it, that should be fine.
If you think people that use combat tracker heavily, do not discuses how to synergize abilities and tactics based on observations during combat you are so wrong. Hardcore player (since it's those who uses combat tracker the most) talk more about the raid encounter and how to "synergize" more than any other player. They play the game more than anyone and talk about it more than anyone. Saying that they only look at the numbers is so false it's funny.
If you want RP then no B-tier play would ever have the chance to join a raid. Do you really think that a group of adventures would want a subpar person to join the mission to kill a dragon? No, they would want the best of the freaking best to have the highest chance to kill the dragon. Real life sucks and the truth can hurt, but accepting the truth and fixing your shortcomings is what really matters.
A combat tracker doesn't automatically make you a better player, it only shows what happened during the fight. And because of that you can find if you did something wrong, take that information, reflect on it, and try and do a better job next time. It's about improving, not being top dps or top hps.
I have a pretty good example that shows the great use of a combat tracker.
In Naxxramas (wow classic) there is a boss called Razuvious, my guild have killed this boss numerus times before. But 2 weeks ago we had a wipe. The priests in the raid need to mind control some adds which then need to tank the boss (by using shield wall and then taunt the boss). For some reason when changing from add 1 to add 2 the boss went on the dps and started to one shot them. The priests that had add 2 said that the he lost the mind control because of the line of site issues. Afterwards I went into the logs and locked through the fight, and I noticed that the 2 add didn't use taunt before the 1adds taunt ran out. Because of this the boss went to the dps with most threat -> ran away from add 2 -> add 2 ran after -> line of sight issues. So the problem was that the priest that mind controlled add 2 was just little slow and not line of sight issues. So we changed the positioning of the boss and the adds a little so the adds are closer to the boss -> can easier and faster taunt the boss -> better strategy. We find the issue via the combat tracker, but fixed the problem via in-game strategizing and knowledge of the fight.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker
I'm not saying there was.
I am saying people used them regardless.
That is like saying you used a calculator on math test where the answers were provided....
And you still have not answered my question pointed towards you in the last two posts I wrote....
We do not need a combat tracker, we want it to analyze.
It's not like a calculator to a test with the answer, it's like an answer sheet with all solution and deep analysis around those answers. The analysis around the answer is not needed, but some people enjoy that.
No offense, but those comments from me, were to Noanni and specifically about GW2... not just trackers in general. I do not mind that you responded, just that you were off topic.
Anyway.... Why do you all still feel like you have to explain to me what a tracker is?
I know what they are, I know what they do.
They help you become a better player.. that help, gives you an advantage over players who do not use them. So if you become a top guild in a game that does not allow trackers.. in the spirit of the game, you have basically cheated. Argue all you want.. that is literally what is happening.
I do not care that you like it, I do not care that it helps you... If it is not allowed, it is plainly not allowed. Now, I know people will still use them anyway, tis the nature of gaming.. Still does not mean I have to like it. We simply come from a different line of thinking of what a game is.. I play for the journey... you play for the end game. The issue with an MMO, is that they are designed for the journey, but players still rush to the end game... So much so, that MMOs have changed the way they make their games and make end game content. Games that focus on end game content from the start.. usually have no room to grow and end up disappointing their player base, as no one has really figured out what it should be. Some have come close... but no true solution.
So... have at it... dps your way to end game that will come to a screeching hault when PvP comes knocking on your door.. unless you plan to stick to the 20% instanced PvE which will not all be opened at the same time due to Nodes. I hope you enjoy your rinse repeat gaming
A combat tracker doesn't automatically make you a better player, it only shows what happened during the fight. And because of that you can find if you did something wrong, take that information, reflect on it, and try and do a better job next time. It's about improving, not being top dps or top hps.
We will see who will come to a screeching hault in PvP
0
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
Internet searches find all sorts of things sometimes!
Would perhaps the following be a reason there is a push for combat trackers!
ACT name and insignia alias chosen for Ashes forums is coincidently the same as Advancedcombattracker, maker of trackers for multiple MMORPGs
Makes sense now why you have advised that if they are permitted or not you will be using one
ACT has website advertising tracker for FFXIV, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, League of Legends
ACT website charges for these trackers.
Web search shows ACT has been in the business of making trackers as early as 2012.. perhaps further.
What conclusions should the community take from this?
I can see how you can come to some of those conclusions.
However, they are basically all wrong.
First bullet point; Back when the combat tracker megathread was going on, I was in a discussion with I believe @Nagash and @Wandering Mist (summoning both!). We were talking about post counts or some such - one of us just got a new forum badge. The discussion moved on to how I had neither capitalized my forum name (couldn't do that at the start), nor added a forum avatar.
So, I did both.
Since the other major discussion going on at the time was the combat tracker thread, I opted to use the icon of my combat tracker of choice as my forum avatar. If Aditu has an issue with that, I am happy to change it.
Second bullet point; I will use one because I enjoy using them.
Third bullet point; ACT does indeed have plugins for basically all MMO's. Additionally, you can make your own plugin for ACT fairly easily so that it can be used on literally any dataset at all - not just combat from MMO's.
Fourth bullet point; ACT does not charge, it is free. They do accept donations though. You can put this to the test by downloading it.
Fifth bullet point; Act has been around since at least 2008. If you scroll down the downloads section of their website, you will see that there are still downloads (free downloads) that were uploaded in August 2008.
If I was directly involved with ACT, I would state as much - ESPECIALLY since I am using their icon as an avatar.
ACT name and insignia alias chosen for Ashes forums is coincidently the same as Advancedcombattracker, maker of trackers for multiple MMORPGs
Makes sense now why you have advised that if they are permitted or not you will be using one
ACT has website advertising tracker for FFXIV, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, League of Legends
ACT website charges for these trackers.
Web search shows ACT has been in the business of making trackers as early as 2012.. perhaps further.
What conclusions should the community take from this?
I have been under the assumption that noaani is just a big fan of ACT. Since he was a EQ2 raider it makes sense that he would like ACT(as far as I know ACT is the only game in town for EQ2 combat tracking).
ACT does not charge for the program. I have used it for years, and ACT has never received any money from me. You can donate if you want to. Would Ashes support on ACT lead to more denotations? Yes, but I don't think noaani would see any of that. There are two contributors on the ACT git hub, and I don't think noaani is one of them.
The way that noaani defends his opinions on combat trackers comes off as more of a person with a hard opinion than a person with a vested financial interest. If he wanted to make money off of ACT his time would be better spent being one of the ACT devs and adding support for more popular games.
Comments
Combat tracker tells the truth, and the truth sometimes hurt </3
If addon`s and/or 3rd party apps, in what ever form, for what ever purpose, are not permitted; then quite simply to use contrary to the intention of the game rules/regulation is as plain as cheating in my book.
And anyone known to act as those zones in L2 would be griefed regularly and repeatedly in my l2 days.
If they are permitted, then I hope they have blockers for the below reasoning as I sense the focus has been on pve only and insular pve. So in addition to the reasoning, I propose a number of other scenarios whereby I believe trackers can be counter productive to game status and something you would fight to have blocked.
Explained through example, when I played L2, there were occasions were despite being in a war with another clan, I was invited to join an enemy`s group to
a) attend a raid, where my level and class was instrumental to the required overall multi-party makeup and was in group with the enemy
b) fight along side in group with a clan we were at war with, against a greater enemy temporarily
c) as a ring-in to fill a certain class need for general xp, despite a war tag up...
Now in all 3 scenarios, neither I nor the enemy clan would have been pleased to share any stats to the other despite a temporary selective ceasefire. By providing those stats through a combat tracker would take away would be intel later possibly used the wrong way.
This is enough to stop the development of third party trackers, and leaves basically every potential issue with combat trackers (real or imagined) behind.
Uuhh that would be cool
I acknowledge that. I am not invalidating your experience. It doesn't really alter my opinion.
Our experiences differ, so we disagree on percentage of occurrence.
My experience leads me to believe that the frequency of the occurrence is high enough that MMORPGs are better off without combat trackers (for all the reasons Steven mentioned; not just due to toxicity.)
Your experience tells you that the frequency of the occurrence is low enough that it's a non-issue.
I accept that. We don't have to agree on that. But, Steven trumps both of us. Steven believes that the frequency with which "it can create a toxic dynamic...excluding players from raids and/or content" is high enough that he doesn't want it in the game - and he's the one making the decision what makes it into the game and what doesn't.
Your claim that casual players won't care is false. Because casual players do care. Also, Steven cares and he's not a casual player, so it's not just casual players who care; non-casual players care.
We don't have exact numbers, so there is no way for us to prove which of us factually have the greater numbers. But that doesn't really matter.
Enough players care and feel negatively about the result, in general, that Steven doesn't want combat trackers in the game.
I'm a Boomer, so....I apologize in advance...
I went to college in a tiny town in TN, but my credit union was back home/home in DC.
I would occasionally call the credit union to transfer money to my checking account in TN.
One day, I called to make the same kind of transaction I had been making periodically for a couple of years, only to be told, "I'm sorry, but that town does not exist."
"OK. But, I'm standing in the town. How can I prove to you that the town exists?"
"I can only go by what the computer tells me and the computer has no record of that town existing."
"So....what do I do?"
"I don't know, but I can't help you."
What you're saying is that it's not the tool that is making the bank teller unhelpful. Rather, she was an unhelpful person before she got that computer. Even without that computer, she would have been unhelpful. The computer had nothing to do with it because the computer is just a tool. The computer cannot be unhelpful.
And I'm saying that I don't agree that the bank teller was an unhelpful person before she got that computer.
Relying on the information she's getting from the computer is making her unhelpful (in this situation).
And it is definitely a negative experience for me. And I definitely care that it's a negative experience for me.
Part of what I've been saying is that I don't even necessarily agree that the combat tracker is giving truly reliable data - which is why Steven refers to that as mechanical bullshit.
I am a carebear pacifist who tries to avoid killing stuff as much as possible when I play RPGs. Not because I suck at combat, but because I'm a carebear pacifist in real life and that carries over to when I play games.
Back in the day when I would play Warcraft 2 in the office, my Activision buddies would tell me to kill the tiny garter snakes. "Why? Does it give me xp? Is it going to attack me?" "No. Because it's funny!" I'm definitely not killing stuff just because it's funny.
When I participate in PvP, I prefer it to be objective-based PvP. I'm willing to spend some time playing capture-the-flag PvP occasionally. When I did this in NWO, I focused on capturing the flags as many times as possible.
Flags were at least twice the points as kills. So, I would stand at the flags. I would let people kill me while I'm at the flag if they wanted to and then race to the next flag. Lots of times people would waste time duking it out while off of the flags because they were more focused on kills than they were on flags. More often than not, my team would win - I would be at the top of the deaths list but also at the top of the flags list. And those doubled points would be significant. Still, there would be times when people would be screaming at me, why aren't you fighting? It's because it's actually more cost efficient to focus on the flags than it is on the kills.
I play MMORPGs for the RP factor; not for the uber-elitist-Gamer factor. I don't care what the numbers of a combat tracker show. I don't need them to evaluate combat. When a combat tracker reports low numbers, I want to know what other things that player might have been doing that were helpful to the overall battle that wasn't captured numerically. Because just because something helpful the players was doing wasn't captured in the numerical data doesn't mean that something helpful didn't exist.
Since I am primarily around for RP with friends, as long as the "story" of the battle is fun, it's fine to carry people who kinda suck at combat.
I have a game designer friend who is the worst gamer I have ever seen, consistently, across numerous games. Probably because he's always high when he's gaming. But, he is always fun to play with, so we all will compensate for his lack of combat skills. We have never needed to rely on combat trackers to eventually devise winning strategies - which is good because the games we play don't have combat trackers.
And, because we also play D&D together, we prefer to play the old skool way Steven refers to: we organically watch what is happening during battles and use trial and error to tweak our tactics, rather than numerically analyzing and trying to increase numbers.
Steven is also an avid table-top RPG player - Pathfinder for sure - so he wants to put the RP back into MMORPG. And focusing on the numbers in a combat tracker detracts from that.
Especially when people use data from the combat tracker to decide things like, "Hey, Summoner/Summoner gives us the highest array of numbers, so you can't be a Necromancer anymore, you need to switch to Conjurer!"
You may think that casual players won't care about that, but actually many casual players will. And a whole bunch of RPers will as well. And...in this case...Steven wants players to have the freedom to play the class they want, rather than to be told they must switch because the combat trackers numbers indicate that's the most efficient build. Because Ashes is an MMORPG and a player's freedom of class choice and build config is a core value in RPGs.
That is true only to the extent that the rest of my group are always playing when I am. Which, frequently is not the case.
And I disagree with him. From your comment I see that you do not know how a combat tracker works, and neither does Steven.
check this link: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/zm2AJFDyGHTCZ6WK#boss=-3&start=0&end=2628160&type=summary&view=events
As you can see, EVERYTHING that happens during a fight is shown. EVERY key press, every ability, every buffs, everything. Not only dps, not only hps, everything.
So a combat tracker does give reliable data.
do you care about what is shown in the combat tracker? My point is that only people that is semi-hardcore or hardcore will look at the combat tracker and care about it. Casual players will play the game and won't care about logging the fight and look at it afterwards.
If you find a guild (or create a guild) and actively search for like minded people, you will always have people to play with.
Indeed.
It has been my argument for a very long time.
No one has found a single downside to it that holds up (Dygz thinks he has), Steven has read about the idea and said nothing at all about it, even though he was participating in the wider discussion.
That fact is a big part of the reason I believe Steven's comments on combat trackers have been made in bad faith.
Steven simply can't take this perspective, as if it is his game we are talking about, the data the combat tracker gives us is the data he gives the combat tracker.
Thus, if he thinks the data the combat tracker gives us is unreliable, then that is because the data he gave the combat tracker is unreliable. As such, the "bullshit" in this situation comes from the game - comes from Steven - not the combat tracker.
Honestly, this is like saying a spreadsheet gives unreliable data - a combat is remarkably similar to a spreadsheet.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
Combat trackers did not make or break GW2 at launch, or for the first few years when it was most popular. They did not come into play well after the game had already made a name for itself. Same as WoW and many other games.
Trackers did not dictate whether those games were successful at launch, they came in after the fact when players had discovered discovered basically all there was to discover, and now Min/Maxing was all that was left to make the game exciting.
Point to one MMO in the history of MMOs that failed at launch due to the lack of trackers and I will submit you are the winner.
I have heard of people being upset when someone chooses Need and they don't actually need the gear.
Seems to me that people have fixes for that - as in choosing a different loot option.
If some dev said they weren't going to include Master loot as a loot option because it creates too much toxicity, I would not disagree with that.
I actually prefer loot piñata for all.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker, unless you were literally just trying to squeeze the last .01% of damage out of your character. The first content might have been fractals, but they were easy as long as you put in the time to get the damage mitigation needed for the new DoT mechanic they put out.
I truly find it hard to believe that GW2 had a tracker problem that early on in the game. If you needed a tracker in that game... you pretty much just suck at video games and need to find a new hobby.
You still did not answer my last question... What MMO, in MMO history, failed at launch because it did not have trackers?
How is something that you do not use during combat immersion breaking?
Self reflection and what you could have done better is immersion enhancing, someone telling you that their addon did the math and it says you suck, is immersion breaking.. even if it is after the fight.
I'm not saying there was.
I am saying people used them regardless.
That is like saying you used a calculator on math test where the answers were provided....
And you still have not answered my question pointed towards you in the last two posts I wrote....
Once again, combat tracker isn't just a dps meter, Is so much more.
People telling you you suck will still be a thing, just like people bully each other in real life. Bad people exist in mmos aswell, just ignore them.
We do not need a combat tracker, we want it to analyze.
It's not like a calculator to a test with the answer, it's like an answer sheet with all solution and deep analysis around those answers. The analysis around the answer is not needed, but some people enjoy that.
"Your DPS numbers are low." "Your Healing numbers are low." The focus is all on what the numbers say.
Rather than discussing how to synergize abilities and augments and tactics based on the characters' organic observations during combat.
Steven wants to get closer to putting the RP back into MMORPG.
I dunno what you are expecting people to say. You get to maintain the few bad apples philosophy.
That's not convincing to the people who don't agree with you.
It's not going to change Steven's mind. What's the point of continuing to assert it?
I think we all understand what your perspective is, we just won't ever agree with it.
You want the tracker. Steven doesn't want the tracker. Since you don't need it, that should be fine.
No offense, but those comments from me, were to Noanni and specifically about GW2... not just trackers in general. I do not mind that you responded, just that you were off topic.
Anyway.... Why do you all still feel like you have to explain to me what a tracker is?
I know what they are, I know what they do.
They help you become a better player.. that help, gives you an advantage over players who do not use them. So if you become a top guild in a game that does not allow trackers.. in the spirit of the game, you have basically cheated. Argue all you want.. that is literally what is happening.
I do not care that you like it, I do not care that it helps you... If it is not allowed, it is plainly not allowed. Now, I know people will still use them anyway, tis the nature of gaming.. Still does not mean I have to like it. We simply come from a different line of thinking of what a game is.. I play for the journey... you play for the end game. The issue with an MMO, is that they are designed for the journey, but players still rush to the end game... So much so, that MMOs have changed the way they make their games and make end game content. Games that focus on end game content from the start.. usually have no room to grow and end up disappointing their player base, as no one has really figured out what it should be. Some have come close... but no true solution.
So... have at it... dps your way to end game that will come to a screeching hault when PvP comes knocking on your door.. unless you plan to stick to the 20% instanced PvE which will not all be opened at the same time due to Nodes. I hope you enjoy your rinse repeat gaming
It's more like saying many people used a combat tracker in an MMO on content that didn't need it, because many people just enjoy using combat trackers.
In fact, that is exactly what it is.
---
I didn't answer your question because literally no MMO has not had combat trackers availiable for it in some form at launch since at least before UO. I can't name an MMO that failed because it didn't have a combat tracker, because I can't name an MMO that didn't have a combat tracker.
UO had combat trackers, L2 had combat trackers (one of the guys that devloped a combat tracker for L2 is working on one for Ashes), even Runescape had combat trackers.
If you think people that use combat tracker heavily, do not discuses how to synergize abilities and tactics based on observations during combat you are so wrong. Hardcore player (since it's those who uses combat tracker the most) talk more about the raid encounter and how to "synergize" more than any other player. They play the game more than anyone and talk about it more than anyone. Saying that they only look at the numbers is so false it's funny.
If you want RP then no B-tier play would ever have the chance to join a raid. Do you really think that a group of adventures would want a subpar person to join the mission to kill a dragon? No, they would want the best of the freaking best to have the highest chance to kill the dragon. Real life sucks and the truth can hurt, but accepting the truth and fixing your shortcomings is what really matters.
A combat tracker doesn't automatically make you a better player, it only shows what happened during the fight. And because of that you can find if you did something wrong, take that information, reflect on it, and try and do a better job next time. It's about improving, not being top dps or top hps.
I have a pretty good example that shows the great use of a combat tracker.
In Naxxramas (wow classic) there is a boss called Razuvious, my guild have killed this boss numerus times before. But 2 weeks ago we had a wipe. The priests in the raid need to mind control some adds which then need to tank the boss (by using shield wall and then taunt the boss). For some reason when changing from add 1 to add 2 the boss went on the dps and started to one shot them. The priests that had add 2 said that the he lost the mind control because of the line of site issues. Afterwards I went into the logs and locked through the fight, and I noticed that the 2 add didn't use taunt before the 1adds taunt ran out. Because of this the boss went to the dps with most threat -> ran away from add 2 -> add 2 ran after -> line of sight issues. So the problem was that the priest that mind controlled add 2 was just little slow and not line of sight issues. So we changed the positioning of the boss and the adds a little so the adds are closer to the boss -> can easier and faster taunt the boss -> better strategy. We find the issue via the combat tracker, but fixed the problem via in-game strategizing and knowledge of the fight.
A combat tracker doesn't automatically make you a better player, it only shows what happened during the fight. And because of that you can find if you did something wrong, take that information, reflect on it, and try and do a better job next time. It's about improving, not being top dps or top hps.
We will see who will come to a screeching hault in PvP
Would perhaps the following be a reason there is a push for combat trackers!
https://advancedcombattracker.com/
https://ibb.co/W6sy0Hk
I'm not sure what about that would make you think there is a reason for a push.
- ACT name and insignia alias chosen for Ashes forums is coincidently the same as Advancedcombattracker, maker of trackers for multiple MMORPGs
- Makes sense now why you have advised that if they are permitted or not you will be using one
- ACT has website advertising tracker for FFXIV, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, League of Legends
- ACT website charges for these trackers.
- Web search shows ACT has been in the business of making trackers as early as 2012.. perhaps further.
What conclusions should the community take from this?I can see how you can come to some of those conclusions.
However, they are basically all wrong.
First bullet point; Back when the combat tracker megathread was going on, I was in a discussion with I believe @Nagash and @Wandering Mist (summoning both!). We were talking about post counts or some such - one of us just got a new forum badge. The discussion moved on to how I had neither capitalized my forum name (couldn't do that at the start), nor added a forum avatar.
So, I did both.
Since the other major discussion going on at the time was the combat tracker thread, I opted to use the icon of my combat tracker of choice as my forum avatar. If Aditu has an issue with that, I am happy to change it.
Second bullet point; I will use one because I enjoy using them.
Third bullet point; ACT does indeed have plugins for basically all MMO's. Additionally, you can make your own plugin for ACT fairly easily so that it can be used on literally any dataset at all - not just combat from MMO's.
Fourth bullet point; ACT does not charge, it is free. They do accept donations though. You can put this to the test by downloading it.
Fifth bullet point; Act has been around since at least 2008. If you scroll down the downloads section of their website, you will see that there are still downloads (free downloads) that were uploaded in August 2008.
If I was directly involved with ACT, I would state as much - ESPECIALLY since I am using their icon as an avatar.
Any questions left?
I have been under the assumption that noaani is just a big fan of ACT. Since he was a EQ2 raider it makes sense that he would like ACT(as far as I know ACT is the only game in town for EQ2 combat tracking).
ACT does not charge for the program. I have used it for years, and ACT has never received any money from me. You can donate if you want to. Would Ashes support on ACT lead to more denotations? Yes, but I don't think noaani would see any of that. There are two contributors on the ACT git hub, and I don't think noaani is one of them.
The way that noaani defends his opinions on combat trackers comes off as more of a person with a hard opinion than a person with a vested financial interest. If he wanted to make money off of ACT his time would be better spent being one of the ACT devs and adding support for more popular games.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.