Maybe they just want people to play the game vanilla style for a while before giving players the tools tweak their characters.
Steven is well aware that the community (or at least portions of it) will have a combat tracker functioning before the game goes live.
Probably before the game goes in to beta.
It is a conversation we have already had, that he participated in to a degree.
It is just one more of those aspects of the games development that make no sense. They claim they do not like how combat trackers are used in other games, and so they literally do exactly the same as those other games in relation to combat trackers - despite suggestions on how they could effectively prevent the things they didn't like.
Do you think this game will fail if it does not have one?
My opinion on this doesn't matter.
As to whether this would happen or not, we will never know.
What I will say though, my opinion of an MMO failing is it not having any live official servers. This means that Archeage has not failed, but SWG has. It means Bless hasn't failed, but Wildstar has.
Failure and success are not particularly good metrics for players to talk about.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wiki is always an interesting read
Addons/mods
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed.[112] – Steven Sharif
Addons and DPS meters will not be allowed.[112][4]
The developers don't want addons/mods to be necessary to experience the game.[113]
The design of the game API is still under consideration.[114]
There will be integrations available for streaming services such as Twitch and a few other services, but it's not something that will be exposed through an API just yet.[115]
The developers believe that parsers (DPS meters) can have negative effects.[116][4]
The idea is to make a one-stop-shop from the company when it comes to in-game systems... We don't really want to have addons in my opinion.[113] – Steven Sharif
There will be leader boards.[117]
Combat logs
There are combat logs in Ashes of Creation.[118]
We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.[119] – Steven Sharif
Interestingly, his use of the term "third party" is incorrect there, as all that is needed to circumvent that is for me to compile the program myself. If I do that, the program is then technically a second party program.
Edit to add; his point here is also reliant on combat trackers running on the same computer as the game client, which no one that I am following in terms of combat trackers for Ashes is planning on doing.
The only way Intrepid will know of combat tracker use is if people tell them about it - that is no way to enforce a strict rule.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker
That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.
YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker
That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.
Wait, are you complaining that other people care about your poor performance when it affects them?
Are you suggesting they should put up with your poor performance, even when it affects them?
YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker
That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.
then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?
if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.
mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.
AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.
I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..
The problem is that people who do not care about performance do not actually exist. Pretty much all MMO players want to win whatever content they are playing, but it should not be required to make your decisions not matter by having a strong meta either. This game has 2 overlapping customization options. It's going to oppose having a meta beyond any other game that ever existed.
Which is why they are making it a focus to have at least 1 of every archetype being the meta party.
People want an MMO where they can build their character and do content potentially equally with the best players. Doesn't mean everyone will accomplish this, but that it will be a focus for it to be possible assuming you try hard enough.
I don't have fun with other games when using other people's guides. I go through it blind and make my own build. Whether that build is good or bad is irrelevant if the game has features to respec for a high cost. As such it is not possible for guilds to expect certain builds with a majority of this game's playerbase. They are going to have to settle for classes that can potentially do the roles they want.
The difference in design is that I want a game where the guilds yield to the individuals right to enjoy the game and not the reverse. Older MMOs do this to some extent. With the exception of some classes like bards being excluded due to being buff bots that this game is probably going to fix by requiring them to be in the party to get the buffs.
This is why a lot of MMOs die in the long run. They don't take into account personal enjoyment. Games die when the casuals get bored because they can't join a group. So a key goal in the game's success is to not let that happen again.
YES!! for the top 1% of players that want to be the best of the best, not for random groups, rp-players or the "normal" type player.
If you are not a hardcore top end player, then you will not even notice the combat tracker
That has not been my experience.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.
You finished the dungeon and it sounds like you got carried... are you expecting then to carry you more? Why?
Interestingly, his use of the term "third party" is incorrect there, as all that is needed to circumvent that is for me to compile the program myself. If I do that, the program is then technically a second party program.
Edit to add; his point here is also reliant on combat trackers running on the same computer as the game client, which no one that I am following in terms of combat trackers for Ashes is planning on doing.
The only way Intrepid will know of combat tracker use is if people tell them about it - that is no way to enforce a strict rule.
Spirit of the law > letter of the law. Write the tracker yourself and you are probably just as likely to get banned.
I want combat trackers too, but I don't make the game rules and I don't look for exploits in them... knowingly exploiting like you are proposing will probably get you banned.
Let's hope IS has a change of heart on their position on combat trackers...
Interestingly, his use of the term "third party" is incorrect there, as all that is needed to circumvent that is for me to compile the program myself. If I do that, the program is then technically a second party program.
Edit to add; his point here is also reliant on combat trackers running on the same computer as the game client, which no one that I am following in terms of combat trackers for Ashes is planning on doing.
The only way Intrepid will know of combat tracker use is if people tell them about it - that is no way to enforce a strict rule.
Spirit of the law > letter of the law. Write the tracker yourself and you are probably just as likely to get banned.
Probably, but I was more pointing out why that particular portion of the wiki (that was taken from these forums) should not necessarily be picked to pieces under the assumption that it is 100% accurate.
My main point is that Intrepid won't be able to detect a combat tracker being used.
With my past comments on combat trackers - basically stating outright that I will be using one by the time the game is in beta at the latest - I have no doubt at all that Intrepid will be looking very, very closely at me to find combat tracker use. They won't find it, yet as soon as I have it I will send Steven a screenshot of a combat tracker readout from the game.
I agree with you in the hope that Intrepid change their position on combat trackers - but not for my sake as much as the sake of everyone else in the game, so that we can all be on an equal footing.
Again, I stated that I *will* use a combat tracker in Ashes before Intrepid had decided on a position on them. My position was clear before theirs was, so even if we didn't take in to consideration the industry norm of them being used, I have no moral objections to me sticking to my word.
It isn't my fault if the rules changed around what I said I was going to do.
You can disagree with that if you like, I am not bothered either way. I am not here to try and guide anyone elses moral compass, I am simply stating my own - and it is one that I am comfortable with.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wait, are you complaining that other people care about your poor performance when it affects them?
Are you suggesting they should put up with your poor performance, even when it affects them?
No. I'm saying that what constitutes "poor performance" is subjective.
And too many people rely on combat trackers and DPS meters as the only measures to determine what "poor performance" means. Probably more precisely as quick and easy measures to determine what poor performance means.
"Your performance is poor because it does not conform with the cookie-cutter assessment of this combat tracker."
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You finished the dungeon and it sounds like you got carried... are you expecting them to carry you more? Why?
Haha. Nope. Actually, I'm typically the one carrying others in my groups.
The groups I repeatedly run with don't care about everyone being uber-efficient in combat. There are typically at least a couple players considerably less proficient at combat than I am .
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?
Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups.
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.
if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.
Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.
mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.
I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.
AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.
I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.
I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..
I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.
Wait, are you complaining that other people care about your poor performance when it affects them?
Are you suggesting they should put up with your poor performance, even when it affects them?
No. I'm saying that what constitutes "poor performance" is subjective.
No it isn't, we have objective data to determine if your performance is poor or not.
Combat in almost all games requires three things. Minimizing the damage the enemy does, healing what damage it does do, and dealing damage to it until it stops dealing damage to us.
All of them show up in a combat tracker, and nothing else in combat matters.
If you are in a group as the tank, your performance can be accurately assessed based on how much damage the target does - both to you and to other people. If you are a healer, your performance can be measured based on how quickly after receiving damage that damage is healed. If you are DPS, your performance can be measured based on - obviously - your DPS.
The only exception to any of this is if you are a bard - but if you are a bard your buffs all affect one of the above three factors, and are able to be measured individually.
So, literally everything can be measured via a combat tracker.
If you are not a tank, healer or bard, your value to the group is literally your damage output. Absolutely nothing else you do brings any value to the other people present, even if you think it does.
As such, it is absolutely, 100% appropriate at all times for your value to a group to be reduced down to the DPS you put out.
If that number is low - and it doesn't matter what the reason for this is - then your value to the group is low.
then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?
Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups.
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.
if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.
Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.
mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.
I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.
AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.
I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.
I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..
I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.
So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.
How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level)
It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world?
And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD)
then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?
Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups.
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.
if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.
Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.
mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.
I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.
AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.
I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.
I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..
I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.
So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.
How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level)
It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world?
And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD)
The issue is not hardcore guilds in any way shape or form. People who join those guilds, as you said, know what they are getting into. So if they get booted after a raid... sure they will be pissed, and it will cause drama, but such is the nature when you live in a cutthroat society.
I play a crapfest of a game called Outriders.
It has a combat tracker.
Combat tracker means nothing to me because I truly do not care about the game, the game is basically a time waster to me. I do not even look at it after a solo round.
My friend plays as well.
When we play together, I find myself looking at the tracker.. sense of pride maybe, or I just like know if I am better than he is.
Problem is...I am better... way better... When I put up 100 million damage... He puts up 60 million damage.
So why is it, that a casual player of a game, who does not really even like the game... still judges his friend's damage output, and usually tries to play solo, more than he does with his friend..
ANSWER: Human Nature.
And that is what will happen if a combat tracker is put in AoC... even the casual players will start to distance themselves from people who do not perform to a certain level. And that will create a toxic environment even if it is a passive aggressive one.
So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.
Nope. Not just in PUGs. In groups, in general. Steven mentions it can be toxic for guilds
I disagree that most PUGs will still be toxic even without combat trackers. That has not been my experience.
I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups.
I maintain that not having combat trackers will greatly reduce toxicity in groups compared to MMORPGs that support combat trackers.
Here's Steven's philosophy:
https://youtu.be/U8UmFQGDnI4?t=3628 STEVEN:"I understand the desire to use DPS meters, however...
First of all, on the add-on front, we're not allowing add-ons. On the DPS meter front, I'm opposed to DPS meters. And the reason why is this...
There's two types of things that happen with DPS meters in MMOs:
First, it can create a toxic dynamic between essentially excluding players from raids and/or content because "Oh, you don't live up to our DPS standard." That's the first thing.
The second thing that it does is... Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, "Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!" It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group.
Now, that is the type of experience we want to replicate: that everybody is in this together type of scenario where we build the teams we are friends with up and we accomplish content together. It kind of also provides this mystery effect, where you're required to actually participate and watch what's going on and not just rely on that DPS meter."
Contemplating what Steven said, I realize that the main reason I have this as a core philosophy is that my younger brother has Downs Syndrome and I was the one in the family who took the time to make sure that he became as independent as possible. My parents and my older brother typically took the route of "Why are you trying to teach him that?" And my answer was, "Because you taught us to be independent and we should help him be as independent and capable as he can possibly be."
We discovered about 8 years ago that he's a computer whiz. Which was not particularly surprising because I always helped him learn how to use gadgets when we were kids. If there is something he can't figure out, I don't blame him for being too handicapped to be successful, I blame myself for not being able to figure out the right way to explain things to him in a manner that he can comprehend. But, typically, we are both confident that I will eventually figure out a way to explain things to him in a way that he can subsequently succeed at a task at his own. And, he also has enough of an IT mindset that he's willing to to troubleshoot on his own. The supervisors at his group home say that when an electronic devise at the house malfunctions, they ask my brother to fix it before they call a professional.
I'm not going to kick my brother from a group or an activity just because he has trouble succeeding. I'm going to find a way to help him be the best he can be despite his flaws. And I do that in all aspects of my life.
When I'm taking a Salsa class, I look around to see who's insecure or struggling and I go help them succeed.
Often I end up doing so silently. I just dance with them. And the response is typically, "Thank you! I learned so much dancing with you. Where do you teach?" I don't teach. I'm just dancing. The first few times I was shocked...because...again, I didn't even say anything.
A few years ago, I noticed someone struggling in the back of the class and went to help her. She said, "I'm sorry. I have no peripheral vision, so it's hard for me to understand what's happening." No problem. I stood next to her and devised ways to describe what was being taught. A few months later she said to me, "Dygz! You can teach dance to the blind! I was going to quit, but you helped me learn how to dance and because of that, I was able to spend last weekend dancing Salsa with my family in Mexico!"
A couple of years ago, I dropped in on a Salsa class I had stopped taking for a few months. The instructor said to the other students, "This is Dygz. Do you know Dygz?" One of the students I had been helping said, "Yeah, I know Dygz! He's the reason I know how to dance Salsa!" And I was freaking out, thinking - "Uh! You should know how to dance because of the instructor! I just helped a bit."
I'm not saying that kicking is toxic because I hate getting kicked from groups or because I have a hard time finding groups - I love to solo. I find it toxic to witness other players get kicked from the groups I'm in and be helpless to prevent that because I'm not the leader.
I've been playing D&D for 40 years. In D&D, the group works together with what we have, flaws as well as perks, to devise a winning strategy. A player who sucks at combat is not going to get kicked from the group. A player who dictates to other players how they must build or play their characters will get kicked from the group. Because RP trumps combat prowess in an RPG.
If an RPG is designed correctly, any subclass should be to fulfill the class role for any group challenge.
Any subclass of Wizard should be able to fulfill the Wizard role. Any subclass of Druid should be able to fulfill the Druid role. Nobody in the group should be demanding that a Necromancer must switch to Wild Blade because Wild Blade will cause more damage in a particular dungeon. A Necromancer choosing to remain as Necromancer for RP reasons is not being selfish. It's what is expected to happen in an RPG. And...believe it or not...MMORPGs are RPGs. Even if the group is in a dungeon that is resistant to Necromancy, the group should not be threatening the Necromancer to switch to Wild Blade, the group should be compensating while helping the Necromancer be the best Necromancer that character can be in that situation. Maybe, instead of having the Necromancer rely on Necromancer augments, we just let them rely on non-augmented Summoner abilities. Or maybe, instead of figuring out how to force the Necromancer to play better, I decide to change my personal strategies and rely more on potions or traps or bombs.
What I never do is kick someone for sucking at combat. What I never do is bully someone for sucking at combat. Rather, I remain confident that -with no need to rely on combat trackers- we can allow each player to play the way they like to play and still devise some strategy that allows us to win. It may not be uber-efficient or uber-fast, but -if the RPG is well-designed, we should be able to figure out a way to overcome any challenge without trampling over the RP choices of the players.
Again, I agree with Steven.
I play as if we are friends who are all in this together. We can solve the mystery of how to defeat the challenge even if some members of the party horribly suck at combat. Devs should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated if the group reaches a specific DPS threshold.
Devs also should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated with a cookie-cutter set of classes or abilities. We can figure out how to synergize the abilities and skills the player characters choose to bring to the party (even if some of those PCs suck at combat) organically, rather than mechanically.
In Ashes, that is the goal. Because the current design does not include or support combat trackers - especially not DPS meters.
Noanni tries to act like that hasn't been known for years already.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a player having to change their build in order to succeed, but the change should come organically and not through force. If in discussions you theorize that a Wizard using ice magic will be better off trying fire magic, and it works, it has a different feeling it to it, although the same results, then if the player has to be told to do it.
3
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Dygz thanks for the reminder of that vid.. It was an enjoyable video to watch again, and there is a lot of info to take away and digest after watching (even for 3-4x watching it)
What I never do is kick someone for sucking at combat. What I never do is bully someone for sucking at combat.
Neither do I.
I have never kicked someone from a group, raid or guild for not being good enough.
I will, if there is a need, but there has never been a need.
I have pulled people aside who thought they were good, shown them numbers of where they are and where I'd like them to be, and then helped them arrive at that spot.
Every time I have said to people "your objective performance is not as good as I would like, here are the numbers" I have received nothing other than an acceptance and desire to do better, for the guild. Every single time, that is the outcome we have had.
Every. Single. Time.
Rather, I remain confident that -with no need to rely on combat trackers- we can allow each player to play the way they like to play and still devise some strategy that allows us to win.
This is the part where your argument falls down.
If you are able to do this without a combat tracker, people are able to work out if you are good or not without one.
As such, literally all the things you dont want people doing with a combat tracker will still be done - either that or it wont be possible to work out that way to win that you talk about.
There is no middle ground where a strategy for a fight can be worked out but poor performing players can not be. As soon as the kind of people that would bully someone or kick them without trying to help first sees this, then they will bully them, or kick them without trying to help.
The things you dont want, which are also things that I dont want, will still be present.
This is why - as I have been telling you for years - your argument here isn't against combat trackers.
0
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
Watch that video from about 1:00 -1:02 hr mark.. pretty much sums up the current position.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have pulled people aside who thought they were good, shown them numbers of where they are and where I'd like them to be, and then helped them arrive at that spot
I feel about that the way you feel about wearing shitty clothes from the garden to a nice meal with friends.
That is not good RP.
Every time I have said to people "your objective performance is not as good as I would like, here are the numbers" I have received nothing other than an acceptance and desire to do better, for the guild. Every single time, that is the outcome we have had.
I am sure there are plenty of gamers in MMORPGs like that.
Doesn't change anything I've said.
If you are able to do this without a combat tracker, people are able to work out if you are good or not without one.
Yep. Which is why we don't need combat trackers. That is my main point. It does not make my argument fall apart at all.
As such, literally all the things you dont want people doing with a combat tracker will still be done - either that or it wont be possible to work out that way to win that you talk about.
Less frequently. Significantly less.
Which is why a combat tracker is not in the game design for Ashes.
The things you dont want, which are also things that I dont want, will still be present.
That is false. Because I don't want combat trackers and Ashes is not supporting add-ons.
More specifically. I don't want Ashes to have combat trackers. If combat trackers are not present, the thing I don't want - which is combat trackers - will not be present.
This is why - as I have been telling you for years - your argument here isn't against combat trackers.
Watch that video from about 1:00 -1:02 hr mark.. pretty much sums up the current position.
Oh, I know Steven's position on them, and I also understand the factually incorrect assumptions he has in his mind that helped form his position.
His two points in that video - combat trackers lead to toxicity, and back in the day you head to bring present to work out encounters rather than have combat trackers tell you what to do.
First, the notion that combat trackers cause toxicity has been debunked on these forums so many times it is ridiculous.
Between WoW and EQ2 we have two games with high combat tracker use. WoW has a toxic community, EQ2 doesn't.
Between AA and FFXIV we have games with generally low combat tracker use. AA has a toxic community, FFXIV doesn't.
One need look no further than this to see that combat trackers are not the cause of toxicity.
As to his second point, combat trackers do not and can not tell you what needs to be done on an encounter.
If you allow API hooks to the extent WoW did, players could develop enhanced combat trackers that will do this, but all a combat tracker is able to do is tell you what has already happened.
If the content takes some effort to figure out - as Steven alluded to - you still need to be present on the encounter, watching everything, understanding what is going on. A combat tracker helps with that, and can help with confirming an assumption you may have after one or two pulls rather than after 10 or 12.
So, both of the points Steven has that form his opinion are based on factually incorrect assumptions on his part.
I have to assume he knows this to be the case, and is continuing to talk about those points for the benefit of people like Dygz that don't think for themselves, but just repeat nonsense that others say.
If he does still believe these points, then I fear for the game as a whole, as it means Intrwpid doesn't have a work environment where even the most senior people at Intrepid can disagree with Steven
So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.
Nope. Not just in PUGs. In groups, in general. Steven mentions it can be toxic for guilds
I disagree that most PUGs will still be toxic even without combat trackers. That has not been my experience.
I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups.
I maintain that not having combat trackers will greatly reduce toxicity in groups compared to MMORPGs that support combat trackers.
Here's Steven's philosophy:
https://youtu.be/U8UmFQGDnI4?t=3628 STEVEN:"I understand the desire to use DPS meters, however...
First of all, on the add-on front, we're not allowing add-ons. On the DPS meter front, I'm opposed to DPS meters. And the reason why is this...
There's two types of things that happen with DPS meters in MMOs:
First, it can create a toxic dynamic between essentially excluding players from raids and/or content because "Oh, you don't live up to our DPS standard." That's the first thing.
The second thing that it does is... Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, "Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!" It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group.
Now, that is the type of experience we want to replicate: that everybody is in this together type of scenario where we build the teams we are friends with up and we accomplish content together. It kind of also provides this mystery effect, where you're required to actually participate and watch what's going on and not just rely on that DPS meter."
Contemplating what Steven said, I realize that the main reason I have this as a core philosophy is that my younger brother has Downs Syndrome and I was the one in the family who took the time to make sure that he became as independent as possible. My parents and my older brother typically took the route of "Why are you trying to teach him that?" And my answer was, "Because you taught us to be independent and we should help him be as independent and capable as he can possibly be."
We discovered about 8 years ago that he's a computer whiz. Which was not particularly surprising because I always helped him learn how to use gadgets when we were kids. If there is something he can't figure out, I don't blame him for being too handicapped to be successful, I blame myself for not being able to figure out the right way to explain things to him in a manner that he can comprehend. But, typically, we are both confident that I will eventually figure out a way to explain things to him in a way that he can subsequently succeed at a task at his own. And, he also has enough of an IT mindset that he's willing to to troubleshoot on his own. The supervisors at his group home say that when an electronic devise at the house malfunctions, they ask my brother to fix it before they call a professional.
I'm not going to kick my brother from a group or an activity just because he has trouble succeeding. I'm going to find a way to help him be the best he can be despite his flaws. And I do that in all aspects of my life.
When I'm taking a Salsa class, I look around to see who's insecure or struggling and I go help them succeed.
Often I end up doing so silently. I just dance with them. And the response is typically, "Thank you! I learned so much dancing with you. Where do you teach?" I don't teach. I'm just dancing. The first few times I was shocked...because...again, I didn't even say anything.
A few years ago, I noticed someone struggling in the back of the class and went to help her. She said, "I'm sorry. I have no peripheral vision, so it's hard for me to understand what's happening." No problem. I stood next to her and devised ways to describe what was being taught. A few months later she said to me, "Dygz! You can teach dance to the blind! I was going to quit, but you helped me learn how to dance and because of that, I was able to spend last weekend dancing Salsa with my family in Mexico!"
A couple of years ago, I dropped in on a Salsa class I had stopped taking for a few months. The instructor said to the other students, "This is Dygz. Do you know Dygz?" One of the students I had been helping said, "Yeah, I know Dygz! He's the reason I know how to dance Salsa!" And I was freaking out, thinking - "Uh! You should know how to dance because of the instructor! I just helped a bit."
I'm not saying that kicking is toxic because I hate getting kicked from groups or because I have a hard time finding groups - I love to solo. I find it toxic to witness other players get kicked from the groups I'm in and be helpless to prevent that because I'm not the leader.
I've been playing D&D for 40 years. In D&D, the group works together with what we have, flaws as well as perks, to devise a winning strategy. A player who sucks at combat is not going to get kicked from the group. A player who dictates to other players how they must build or play their characters will get kicked from the group. Because RP trumps combat prowess in an RPG.
If an RPG is designed correctly, any subclass should be to fulfill the class role for any group challenge.
Any subclass of Wizard should be able to fulfill the Wizard role. Any subclass of Druid should be able to fulfill the Druid role. Nobody in the group should be demanding that a Necromancer must switch to Wild Blade because Wild Blade will cause more damage in a particular dungeon. A Necromancer choosing to remain as Necromancer for RP reasons is not being selfish. It's what is expected to happen in an RPG. And...believe it or not...MMORPGs are RPGs. Even if the group is in a dungeon that is resistant to Necromancy, the group should not be threatening the Necromancer to switch to Wild Blade, the group should be compensating while helping the Necromancer be the best Necromancer that character can be in that situation. Maybe, instead of having the Necromancer rely on Necromancer augments, we just let them rely on non-augmented Summoner abilities. Or maybe, instead of figuring out how to force the Necromancer to play better, I decide to change my personal strategies and rely more on potions or traps or bombs.
What I never do is kick someone for sucking at combat. What I never do is bully someone for sucking at combat. Rather, I remain confident that -with no need to rely on combat trackers- we can allow each player to play the way they like to play and still devise some strategy that allows us to win. It may not be uber-efficient or uber-fast, but -if the RPG is well-designed, we should be able to figure out a way to overcome any challenge without trampling over the RP choices of the players.
Again, I agree with Steven.
I play as if we are friends who are all in this together. We can solve the mystery of how to defeat the challenge even if some members of the party horribly suck at combat. Devs should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated if the group reaches a specific DPS threshold.
Devs also should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated with a cookie-cutter set of classes or abilities. We can figure out how to synergize the abilities and skills the player characters choose to bring to the party (even if some of those PCs suck at combat) organically, rather than mechanically.
In Ashes, that is the goal. Because the current design does not include or support combat trackers - especially not DPS meters.
Noanni tries to act like that hasn't been known for years already.
Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs.
I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs.
I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
Dygz doesn't make friends in games, nor play well with others.
He is talking from a completely theoretical perspective of how he thinks things are - he has no real idea of how things actually are.
That is why he believes it when Steven says things like "combat trackers lead to toxicity". He has no experience telling him otherwise, unlike almost every single person that has been involved in MMO's at a guild level.
Comments
As to whether this would happen or not, we will never know.
What I will say though, my opinion of an MMO failing is it not having any live official servers. This means that Archeage has not failed, but SWG has. It means Bless hasn't failed, but Wildstar has.
Failure and success are not particularly good metrics for players to talk about.
Addons/mods
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed.[112] – Steven Sharif
Addons and DPS meters will not be allowed.[112][4]
The developers don't want addons/mods to be necessary to experience the game.[113]
The design of the game API is still under consideration.[114]
There will be integrations available for streaming services such as Twitch and a few other services, but it's not something that will be exposed through an API just yet.[115]
The developers believe that parsers (DPS meters) can have negative effects.[116][4]
The idea is to make a one-stop-shop from the company when it comes to in-game systems... We don't really want to have addons in my opinion.[113] – Steven Sharif
There will be leader boards.[117]
Combat logs
There are combat logs in Ashes of Creation.[118]
We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.[119] – Steven Sharif
...and Noaani be like: "Come and take them.".
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Yeah, basically.
Interestingly, his use of the term "third party" is incorrect there, as all that is needed to circumvent that is for me to compile the program myself. If I do that, the program is then technically a second party program.
Edit to add; his point here is also reliant on combat trackers running on the same computer as the game client, which no one that I am following in terms of combat trackers for Ashes is planning on doing.
The only way Intrepid will know of combat tracker use is if people tell them about it - that is no way to enforce a strict rule.
I'm not a hardcore top end player and I have been negatively impacted by combat trackers way too often.
In my experience, it's typical of group leaders to check the combat tracker at the end of dungeon runs, complain to someone about low dps and kick them.
NO ADD ONS
Wait, are you complaining that other people care about your poor performance when it affects them?
Are you suggesting they should put up with your poor performance, even when it affects them?
then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?
if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.
mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.
AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.
I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..
Which is why they are making it a focus to have at least 1 of every archetype being the meta party.
People want an MMO where they can build their character and do content potentially equally with the best players. Doesn't mean everyone will accomplish this, but that it will be a focus for it to be possible assuming you try hard enough.
I don't have fun with other games when using other people's guides. I go through it blind and make my own build. Whether that build is good or bad is irrelevant if the game has features to respec for a high cost. As such it is not possible for guilds to expect certain builds with a majority of this game's playerbase. They are going to have to settle for classes that can potentially do the roles they want.
The difference in design is that I want a game where the guilds yield to the individuals right to enjoy the game and not the reverse. Older MMOs do this to some extent. With the exception of some classes like bards being excluded due to being buff bots that this game is probably going to fix by requiring them to be in the party to get the buffs.
This is why a lot of MMOs die in the long run. They don't take into account personal enjoyment. Games die when the casuals get bored because they can't join a group. So a key goal in the game's success is to not let that happen again.
U.S. East
You finished the dungeon and it sounds like you got carried... are you expecting then to carry you more? Why?
Spirit of the law > letter of the law. Write the tracker yourself and you are probably just as likely to get banned.
I want combat trackers too, but I don't make the game rules and I don't look for exploits in them... knowingly exploiting like you are proposing will probably get you banned.
Let's hope IS has a change of heart on their position on combat trackers...
My main point is that Intrepid won't be able to detect a combat tracker being used.
With my past comments on combat trackers - basically stating outright that I will be using one by the time the game is in beta at the latest - I have no doubt at all that Intrepid will be looking very, very closely at me to find combat tracker use. They won't find it, yet as soon as I have it I will send Steven a screenshot of a combat tracker readout from the game.
I agree with you in the hope that Intrepid change their position on combat trackers - but not for my sake as much as the sake of everyone else in the game, so that we can all be on an equal footing.
Again, I stated that I *will* use a combat tracker in Ashes before Intrepid had decided on a position on them. My position was clear before theirs was, so even if we didn't take in to consideration the industry norm of them being used, I have no moral objections to me sticking to my word.
It isn't my fault if the rules changed around what I said I was going to do.
You can disagree with that if you like, I am not bothered either way. I am not here to try and guide anyone elses moral compass, I am simply stating my own - and it is one that I am comfortable with.
And too many people rely on combat trackers and DPS meters as the only measures to determine what "poor performance" means. Probably more precisely as quick and easy measures to determine what poor performance means.
"Your performance is poor because it does not conform with the cookie-cutter assessment of this combat tracker."
The groups I repeatedly run with don't care about everyone being uber-efficient in combat. There are typically at least a couple players considerably less proficient at combat than I am .
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.
Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.
I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.
I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.
I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.
Combat in almost all games requires three things. Minimizing the damage the enemy does, healing what damage it does do, and dealing damage to it until it stops dealing damage to us.
All of them show up in a combat tracker, and nothing else in combat matters.
If you are in a group as the tank, your performance can be accurately assessed based on how much damage the target does - both to you and to other people. If you are a healer, your performance can be measured based on how quickly after receiving damage that damage is healed. If you are DPS, your performance can be measured based on - obviously - your DPS.
The only exception to any of this is if you are a bard - but if you are a bard your buffs all affect one of the above three factors, and are able to be measured individually.
So, literally everything can be measured via a combat tracker.
If you are not a tank, healer or bard, your value to the group is literally your damage output. Absolutely nothing else you do brings any value to the other people present, even if you think it does.
As such, it is absolutely, 100% appropriate at all times for your value to a group to be reduced down to the DPS you put out.
If that number is low - and it doesn't matter what the reason for this is - then your value to the group is low.
So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.
How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level)
It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world?
And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD)
The issue is not hardcore guilds in any way shape or form. People who join those guilds, as you said, know what they are getting into. So if they get booted after a raid... sure they will be pissed, and it will cause drama, but such is the nature when you live in a cutthroat society.
I play a crapfest of a game called Outriders.
It has a combat tracker.
Combat tracker means nothing to me because I truly do not care about the game, the game is basically a time waster to me. I do not even look at it after a solo round.
My friend plays as well.
When we play together, I find myself looking at the tracker.. sense of pride maybe, or I just like know if I am better than he is.
Problem is...I am better... way better... When I put up 100 million damage... He puts up 60 million damage.
So why is it, that a casual player of a game, who does not really even like the game... still judges his friend's damage output, and usually tries to play solo, more than he does with his friend..
ANSWER: Human Nature.
And that is what will happen if a combat tracker is put in AoC... even the casual players will start to distance themselves from people who do not perform to a certain level. And that will create a toxic environment even if it is a passive aggressive one.
By Not having AddOns, they exclude a team of people who work for free as mini devs
I disagree that most PUGs will still be toxic even without combat trackers. That has not been my experience.
I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups.
I maintain that not having combat trackers will greatly reduce toxicity in groups compared to MMORPGs that support combat trackers.
Here's Steven's philosophy:
STEVEN:"I understand the desire to use DPS meters, however...
First of all, on the add-on front, we're not allowing add-ons. On the DPS meter front, I'm opposed to DPS meters. And the reason why is this...
There's two types of things that happen with DPS meters in MMOs:
First, it can create a toxic dynamic between essentially excluding players from raids and/or content because "Oh, you don't live up to our DPS standard." That's the first thing.
The second thing that it does is... Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, "Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!" It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group.
Now, that is the type of experience we want to replicate: that everybody is in this together type of scenario where we build the teams we are friends with up and we accomplish content together. It kind of also provides this mystery effect, where you're required to actually participate and watch what's going on and not just rely on that DPS meter."
Contemplating what Steven said, I realize that the main reason I have this as a core philosophy is that my younger brother has Downs Syndrome and I was the one in the family who took the time to make sure that he became as independent as possible. My parents and my older brother typically took the route of "Why are you trying to teach him that?" And my answer was, "Because you taught us to be independent and we should help him be as independent and capable as he can possibly be."
We discovered about 8 years ago that he's a computer whiz. Which was not particularly surprising because I always helped him learn how to use gadgets when we were kids. If there is something he can't figure out, I don't blame him for being too handicapped to be successful, I blame myself for not being able to figure out the right way to explain things to him in a manner that he can comprehend. But, typically, we are both confident that I will eventually figure out a way to explain things to him in a way that he can subsequently succeed at a task at his own. And, he also has enough of an IT mindset that he's willing to to troubleshoot on his own. The supervisors at his group home say that when an electronic devise at the house malfunctions, they ask my brother to fix it before they call a professional.
I'm not going to kick my brother from a group or an activity just because he has trouble succeeding. I'm going to find a way to help him be the best he can be despite his flaws. And I do that in all aspects of my life.
When I'm taking a Salsa class, I look around to see who's insecure or struggling and I go help them succeed.
Often I end up doing so silently. I just dance with them. And the response is typically, "Thank you! I learned so much dancing with you. Where do you teach?" I don't teach. I'm just dancing. The first few times I was shocked...because...again, I didn't even say anything.
A few years ago, I noticed someone struggling in the back of the class and went to help her. She said, "I'm sorry. I have no peripheral vision, so it's hard for me to understand what's happening." No problem. I stood next to her and devised ways to describe what was being taught. A few months later she said to me, "Dygz! You can teach dance to the blind! I was going to quit, but you helped me learn how to dance and because of that, I was able to spend last weekend dancing Salsa with my family in Mexico!"
A couple of years ago, I dropped in on a Salsa class I had stopped taking for a few months. The instructor said to the other students, "This is Dygz. Do you know Dygz?" One of the students I had been helping said, "Yeah, I know Dygz! He's the reason I know how to dance Salsa!" And I was freaking out, thinking - "Uh! You should know how to dance because of the instructor! I just helped a bit."
I'm not saying that kicking is toxic because I hate getting kicked from groups or because I have a hard time finding groups - I love to solo. I find it toxic to witness other players get kicked from the groups I'm in and be helpless to prevent that because I'm not the leader.
I've been playing D&D for 40 years. In D&D, the group works together with what we have, flaws as well as perks, to devise a winning strategy. A player who sucks at combat is not going to get kicked from the group. A player who dictates to other players how they must build or play their characters will get kicked from the group. Because RP trumps combat prowess in an RPG.
If an RPG is designed correctly, any subclass should be to fulfill the class role for any group challenge.
Any subclass of Wizard should be able to fulfill the Wizard role. Any subclass of Druid should be able to fulfill the Druid role. Nobody in the group should be demanding that a Necromancer must switch to Wild Blade because Wild Blade will cause more damage in a particular dungeon. A Necromancer choosing to remain as Necromancer for RP reasons is not being selfish. It's what is expected to happen in an RPG. And...believe it or not...MMORPGs are RPGs. Even if the group is in a dungeon that is resistant to Necromancy, the group should not be threatening the Necromancer to switch to Wild Blade, the group should be compensating while helping the Necromancer be the best Necromancer that character can be in that situation. Maybe, instead of having the Necromancer rely on Necromancer augments, we just let them rely on non-augmented Summoner abilities. Or maybe, instead of figuring out how to force the Necromancer to play better, I decide to change my personal strategies and rely more on potions or traps or bombs.
What I never do is kick someone for sucking at combat. What I never do is bully someone for sucking at combat. Rather, I remain confident that -with no need to rely on combat trackers- we can allow each player to play the way they like to play and still devise some strategy that allows us to win. It may not be uber-efficient or uber-fast, but -if the RPG is well-designed, we should be able to figure out a way to overcome any challenge without trampling over the RP choices of the players.
Again, I agree with Steven.
I play as if we are friends who are all in this together. We can solve the mystery of how to defeat the challenge even if some members of the party horribly suck at combat. Devs should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated if the group reaches a specific DPS threshold.
Devs also should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated with a cookie-cutter set of classes or abilities. We can figure out how to synergize the abilities and skills the player characters choose to bring to the party (even if some of those PCs suck at combat) organically, rather than mechanically.
In Ashes, that is the goal. Because the current design does not include or support combat trackers - especially not DPS meters.
Noanni tries to act like that hasn't been known for years already.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a player having to change their build in order to succeed, but the change should come organically and not through force. If in discussions you theorize that a Wizard using ice magic will be better off trying fire magic, and it works, it has a different feeling it to it, although the same results, then if the player has to be told to do it.
I have never kicked someone from a group, raid or guild for not being good enough.
I will, if there is a need, but there has never been a need.
I have pulled people aside who thought they were good, shown them numbers of where they are and where I'd like them to be, and then helped them arrive at that spot.
Every time I have said to people "your objective performance is not as good as I would like, here are the numbers" I have received nothing other than an acceptance and desire to do better, for the guild. Every single time, that is the outcome we have had.
Every. Single. Time.
This is the part where your argument falls down.
If you are able to do this without a combat tracker, people are able to work out if you are good or not without one.
As such, literally all the things you dont want people doing with a combat tracker will still be done - either that or it wont be possible to work out that way to win that you talk about.
There is no middle ground where a strategy for a fight can be worked out but poor performing players can not be. As soon as the kind of people that would bully someone or kick them without trying to help first sees this, then they will bully them, or kick them without trying to help.
The things you dont want, which are also things that I dont want, will still be present.
This is why - as I have been telling you for years - your argument here isn't against combat trackers.
That is not good RP.
I am sure there are plenty of gamers in MMORPGs like that.
Doesn't change anything I've said.
Yep. Which is why we don't need combat trackers. That is my main point. It does not make my argument fall apart at all.
Less frequently. Significantly less.
Which is why a combat tracker is not in the game design for Ashes.
That is false. Because I don't want combat trackers and Ashes is not supporting add-ons.
More specifically. I don't want Ashes to have combat trackers. If combat trackers are not present, the thing I don't want - which is combat trackers - will not be present.
And... you are wrong. As you typically are.
Oh, I know Steven's position on them, and I also understand the factually incorrect assumptions he has in his mind that helped form his position.
His two points in that video - combat trackers lead to toxicity, and back in the day you head to bring present to work out encounters rather than have combat trackers tell you what to do.
First, the notion that combat trackers cause toxicity has been debunked on these forums so many times it is ridiculous.
Between WoW and EQ2 we have two games with high combat tracker use. WoW has a toxic community, EQ2 doesn't.
Between AA and FFXIV we have games with generally low combat tracker use. AA has a toxic community, FFXIV doesn't.
One need look no further than this to see that combat trackers are not the cause of toxicity.
As to his second point, combat trackers do not and can not tell you what needs to be done on an encounter.
If you allow API hooks to the extent WoW did, players could develop enhanced combat trackers that will do this, but all a combat tracker is able to do is tell you what has already happened.
If the content takes some effort to figure out - as Steven alluded to - you still need to be present on the encounter, watching everything, understanding what is going on. A combat tracker helps with that, and can help with confirming an assumption you may have after one or two pulls rather than after 10 or 12.
So, both of the points Steven has that form his opinion are based on factually incorrect assumptions on his part.
I have to assume he knows this to be the case, and is continuing to talk about those points for the benefit of people like Dygz that don't think for themselves, but just repeat nonsense that others say.
If he does still believe these points, then I fear for the game as a whole, as it means Intrwpid doesn't have a work environment where even the most senior people at Intrepid can disagree with Steven
So, to be clear, you are ok with that bullying, toxicity and booting others from groups, as long as combat trackers are not involved?
Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs.
I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
He is talking from a completely theoretical perspective of how he thinks things are - he has no real idea of how things actually are.
That is why he believes it when Steven says things like "combat trackers lead to toxicity". He has no experience telling him otherwise, unlike almost every single person that has been involved in MMO's at a guild level.