Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
I'm not sure the argument of players having access to objective data vs players just guessing what is going on is an argument you want to get in to - as that is where this line of thinking leads.
Ok.. So basically DPS meters are to get through the content faster, so you have a chance to be one of the top guilds on the server that you play on?
As I have said in this thread, there will be DPS meters for this game, just not official ones. Mainly because of the toxic stigma that comes with them. For the guilds that use them to burn through content ... they deserver a * next to any accomplishments they have, because they were not earned, they were manufactured.
Seriously? I don't want to get into that argument? What has been going on this entire thread? I am here... and I am arguing my point. The sad part is, I agree with DPS meters, I just disagree with you on how they should be used.
Not sure I want to get into that argument? pffft....
You don't want to get in to that as an argument because it is one I've already been in maybe 8 - 10 times on these forums, and there really is no valid reason to argue for not allowing easy access to data for players.
Just in case you want to get in to the argument, I'll basically give you then end question you need to answer.
Players have preferences of content type.
When people try out a game, they are trying out the aspect of that game they enjoy.
They are not looking at that aspect of that game in a vacuum, they are comparing that aspect of that game to that aspect of other games they have played.
People that would consider raiding in Ashes are people that would raid in WoW, or in EQ2, or in Rift.
If raiding in Ashes is to be successful as a content type, it needs to appeal to these people.
These people consider combat trackers as an essential tool, and consider access to objective data as a basic requirement of raiding.
These people are not interested in a raiding paradigm that is based on guessing - why would they be?
The notion that these people should just "give it a go" doesn't hold any weight, because they have that aspect of MMO's that they can play in other games.
So, with all of this taken in to account, why should Intrepid even bother adding raid content without easy access to objective data to Ashes?
What about dps meters and immersion? Do u honestly feel like u were fighting a boss if after every fight u check some exact parses?
How can we take u seriously when u act like u knew the opinions of all raiders?
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
DPS meters don't take away from immersion for me. If anything, it adds more to the experience I just had with the encounter as I can look at it in more detail.
I personally would still be playing wow if I still enjoyed keeping track of my exact dps. For me playing BDO and getting feedback in other ways killed the enjoyment that the numbers used to offer.
Nowadays using combat trackers feels like Im in gameworld and when I choose to I can get collection of mathematical data on how I did last fight from...somewhere?
I expect the feedback from my team in ashes to be more of "did u see that cc on the runaway add?" and so on.
I want this game to be a blast of fresh air that blows away the musty corrupt mmo scene we are used to..
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
Here is your valid point for not having one.
If using a DPS meter gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed
Here is the truth of it all.
Intrepid is building this MMO because of how far MMOs over the past 18 years or so have strayed away from the way they used to be. This is an old school MMO at heart, with new mechanics to make the game fresh and exciting.
Every single MMO launch has players like yourself. They come to a new game expecting the same mechanics they enjoyed from the last one they played, and get upset when they are not there.
So in the end it comes down to this...
Your argument is that you want it because you said so, and because it gives you an advantage and you like that.
My argument is that I do not want them because I said so, and because it gives players an advantage and I hate it.
Intrepid has decided on this issue and said they do not want them in game ... argument ends.
If using a DPS meter better gear gives you an advantage over people who do not use them, then 100% they should not be allowed
Hmm... yea that argument isn't valid... MMOs are all about having things that give players and advantage. Literally its what makes a MMO different than most other games out there (for better or worse).
Having a combat tracker helps you understand what actually happened in a fight when all the glowly stuff was going off all over the place. It helps you learn how to play better.... That seems like a good thing to me.
Yes more immersed in the actual gameplay. After that "awesome fight" just happened I can go back and look at it (and to a degree relive it through the data). That fight I just had is now more meaningful because I understand it better. I'm now more connected to the game and its mechanics.
Not more immersive in terms of story/lore of course. But yes more connected to the game and how what I did fit into everything else that was going on.
There is one small issue with this as a point.
I dont need Intrepids permission to use a combat tracker. I will use one, and that is the end of that particular debate. Intrepid will only know I am using one due to me telling them I will use one.
The question is, if I am using one, should others have access to it or not. What is more fair, a select group of people having access to a combat tracker, or everyone having equal access - these are the only two possibilities at play here.
You just do not listen to anyone at all... even yourself at times. You see only in black and white, and the shades of gray elude you to a drastic measure.
Your first comment on it being an argument that it should be built into the game, is like saying Wallhacks should be built into CoD because it is empirical data that you need to know where the other players are at all times to succeed... And that you will use one whether it was built into the game or not.
Get on with yourself buddy... you are a lost cause, and I feel bad for anyone that plays in your guild. Not because you use a DPS meter, but because you refuse to listen to anyone with a different point of view.
Just to be sure we are clear here, you are equating wall hacks in an FPS game with rearranging data we already have in to a spreadsheet, right?
I mean, I assume you know Steven has confirmed that combat logs will be a thing, and I assume you know that all a combat tracker does is take a combat log and display it better - and yet this equates to wall hacking in your mind?
That is an interesting take on things, honestly.
No, it is not a direct comparison, not even close. Just like your analogy the other day with cold snaps and global warming.. I knew what you meant... and not that a game mechanic was going to lead to the end of the world... This is what I mean by seeing black and white, and not listening to people... you try to take everything people say literally and cannot read the nuance in it... Just stop arguing already and go picket in front of Steven's place of business for a DPS meter so he can tell you no personally.
This argument of yours is just like going to a steak house and bringing your own dinner rolls because you do not like the one they serve... and then complaining that they should serve the ones you like because everyone deserves to taste your rolls...even though 50% of the people there do not want yours.
They let you bring your own rolls so you can be happy and enjoy their steak... stop pushing your rolls on everyone else...
Simple break down..
Dinner rolls = DPS meter
Steak = AoC
How exactly does a tool like ACT get the logs from the game? There may be ways like encryption to block these means?
Not that I would advocate for this, but it's technically possible.
I do find it ironic that combat logs would exist without combat trackers. But that's just me looking at it form a consumer experience perspective. Combat logs are not very user friendly compared to combat trackers... of course I see a lot of people in this forum advocating for non-consumer friendly things so I shouldn't be too surprised by this.
At the end of the day, no computer system is 100% secure and the best Intrepid can do if they want to actively try to prevent combat trackers is to play a constant (and expensive) game of cat and mouse with those of us that do want to use them.
At least with the global warming analogy there was a point in that one person's perspective doesn't hold true for the larger picture.
Your 'analogy' there has no connecting parameters.
So you are saying you would basically cheat if it was not allowed at all .. This sums up everything.
The connecting analogy would be using programs not meant to be in game, to gain an advantage over other players.
Which is actually hilarious.. because your quote from above.. basically saying you will do it even if not allowed by IS... now in fact makes this .... A direct comparison between wallhacking and DPS meters.
Using outside of the game programs to gain an advantage over another player.. so ... cheating.
I am not saying DPS meters are cheating now, because obviously the data is there, use it as you will. It just wont be officially added to the game.
I take my moral compass with me between games. It doesn't change just because of the rules of one game vs another.
One example of this is the notion of one button for one action. The way GW2 combat is set up, you have more than one action per key press, and as such I dont play the game. It may not be against that games rules (it cant be, it is built in to the game), but it is against mine.
Combat tracker usage is not against my rules. If a game says they dont want them, I dont really care.
I dont care anymore... They will not be in game officially at launch as of right now. I know you will use one and I do not care that you will. You are literally now just arguing for argument sake. Your argument has gotten to the point of, "I am taking my ball and going home" type of maturity. If DPS meters make it into the game officially at launch, or years down the road.. I still wont care. They do not bother me personally, because I can play with or without them. Im just over talking to you as a whole.. even your posts I agree with annoy me now lol.
I would argue that the people saying " I dont like combat trackers so you shouldn't be able to use them" are displaying this level of maturity.
My point is more akin to "this is what I'm doing, I personally think it would be best if everyone that wanted to do that could, but honestly, the rest of you can do what ever you want".
Because at the end of the day, that is my point. I will be using a combat tracker, and I think the game would be better off if everyone that wanted to was able to use one as well. But honestly, the rest of you can do what ever you want.
If it were 100% technically impossible to use them, would you still play this game or is this a deal breaker for you?
I guess technically all they would have to do is put it against the rules in the ToS and then ban anyone caught doing jt. They don't have to technically block it.
I'm all for having combat trackers, but I wouldn't cheat to have them...
Intrepid are not likely to outright say that we can't use them, all they will say is what they have said - they aren't supported.
If they attempt to ban them, that means they then need to work at keeping them out of the game - you can't implement a rule if you are not planning on enforcing it.
This will be both costly and time consuming for Intrepid, and all up just not worth it.
So, the notion of whether I would use a combat tracker if they made a rule against using them is not something worth discussing.
I guess that could be one way of looking at it, but no more so than how buying a better computer - or a better internet connection - may also give you an edge.
They are willing to invest in GMs to help with the integrity of the game elsewhere and that's costly. By dodging the question like this you are effectively admitting your would cheat...
In my experience addons are free. There might be an option to donate to support thr addon or the site might have ads to support it.
I haven't used ACT before though so maybe it's different. I would also consider it very different than buying a better PC if IS is explicitly stating there are to be no addons for the game.
Finding and banning gold sellers is something that is fairly easy in comparison to finding someone using a combat tracker. Activities like that, by their very nature, leave traces of their presence for Intrepid to find.
As an example of how hard it will be - one of the two I have followed the development of does not run on the same computer as the game client. Based on that alone, Intrepid have no actual way of finding people that are using it at all, ever.
This version was designed (and mostly built) before it became known that the game would have a combat log, so even if that is removed, this tracker will work.
The other tracker is a little more complex than that.
This is why the question isn't worth answering. Intrepid cant make rules for me about what I do on a computer that isn't running their software at all.