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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
I can see how you can come to some of those conclusions.
However, they are basically all wrong.
First bullet point; Back when the combat tracker megathread was going on, I was in a discussion with I believe @Nagash and @Wandering Mist (summoning both!). We were talking about post counts or some such - one of us just got a new forum badge. The discussion moved on to how I had neither capitalized my forum name (couldn't do that at the start), nor added a forum avatar.
So, I did both.
Since the other major discussion going on at the time was the combat tracker thread, I opted to use the icon of my combat tracker of choice as my forum avatar. If Aditu has an issue with that, I am happy to change it.
Second bullet point; I will use one because I enjoy using them.
Third bullet point; ACT does indeed have plugins for basically all MMO's. Additionally, you can make your own plugin for ACT fairly easily so that it can be used on literally any dataset at all - not just combat from MMO's.
Fourth bullet point; ACT does not charge, it is free. They do accept donations though. You can put this to the test by downloading it.
Fifth bullet point; Act has been around since at least 2008. If you scroll down the downloads section of their website, you will see that there are still downloads (free downloads) that were uploaded in August 2008.
If I was directly involved with ACT, I would state as much - ESPECIALLY since I am using their icon as an avatar.
Any questions left?
I have been under the assumption that noaani is just a big fan of ACT. Since he was a EQ2 raider it makes sense that he would like ACT(as far as I know ACT is the only game in town for EQ2 combat tracking).
ACT does not charge for the program. I have used it for years, and ACT has never received any money from me. You can donate if you want to. Would Ashes support on ACT lead to more denotations? Yes, but I don't think noaani would see any of that. There are two contributors on the ACT git hub, and I don't think noaani is one of them.
The way that noaani defends his opinions on combat trackers comes off as more of a person with a hard opinion than a person with a vested financial interest. If he wanted to make money off of ACT his time would be better spent being one of the ACT devs and adding support for more popular games.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
This is a good point that I hadn't considered.
If I were a combat tracker developer and wanted to increase my sales (or donations), I wouldn't be doing that here.
I have looked everywhere trying to find the oldest tracker I could .. 2008 to 2011 is the oldest I have found so far.. the 2008 was actually for EQ2... and that was 4 years after the game came out. 2011 was your advertised tracker and while I did not look for what game, I can say it was 14 years after UO launched, and 7 to 8 years after L2 and WoW were launched. You may have more info on the history of trackers, and if you do.. please share.
Your argument seems to fall on the fact that all of these games have trackers now... but you cannot show that these games used trackers heavily at launch. While I agree they may have existed at launch... they were not what they are now. They were not as important back then because the games were played for different reasons back then..
And back then, is where Steven is trying to take us with AoC. So that is why your trackers do not fit in this game.
This is easy, how do you measure fighters IRL without DPS meters and other addons?
The amount of blood, sweat and broken bones
No, you either go into a competition to perform feats. Light have them to fight the same enemy and see damage taken, and time taken to defeat the enemy. Or spar against each other.
Back in the 90's and early 2000's, it was more of a clandestine type of community than it is now. People assumed they were fine to use as they were simply using information the games were providing - but no one had asked any developers to check that their use was ok. No one wanted to because no one wanted them to say no.
Combat tracker use started to go up around 2003, they were widely used during WoW vanilla raiding, with Recount being the most common (but neither the first nor only, and also wasnt the best featured) tracker used back then. This happened before raiding in WoW took off in popularity.
Many of the trackers that were made for specific games have since been made redundant by multi-game trackers like ACT. This is why you would have trouble finding much before 2008, most of that simply doesn't exist any more.
Now, it may well be that Steven has grand plans to bring MMO's back to 2003 or some such. The thing is, players have different expectations now.
We now expect better graphics. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better UI. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better controls. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better security. Ashes will have that.
We now expect more in-game options. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better communication channels. Ashes will have that.
Players expect more details in their guild systems. Ashes will have that.
You cant just say that Ashes wont have a thing because you (and Steven) didnt know it was around in 2003. There are many things player expect now that they didnt have back then that Ashes is going to cater towards.
Combat trackers - or at least better access to information - are one of those things that people now expect in an MMO.
As GW2 should demonstrate to anyone paying attention, the people will have what they expect, developer be damned.
And at the end of the day, that is my argument. People that want a tracker will have a tracker. What you have to say about it doesn't matter. What I have to say about it doesn't matter. What Steven has to say about it doesn't matter. We can sit here and argue this all we want, or we can realize that people will indeed have a tracker if they want it, and then discuss what the best action to take with that information in hand is.
My suggestion for the last several years has been to take that piece of information that people that want a tracker will have one, and work out the basic minimum functionality that would need to be available for the people that want a tracker to not have to resort to third party trackers.
That minimum functionality is for the tracker to track their raid, and since their raid will be made up of members of their guild, that is another viable restriction..
From there, I came up with the idea of making a tracker a guild perk in Ashes, where guilds that dont value it have plenty of other options to pick instead. Guilds that do pick this tracker have it only work on members of their guild, that are in a group or raid with them.
Build that in to the game and you kill off the need for third party combat trackers.
That is my argument. Everything else is discussion.
I was making a joke but sure
Fact.
The first combat trackers only measured broken bones. This had to change with the introduction of gelatinous cube enemies.
Can a gelatinous cube be made in to a zombie?
I have not once said that trackers will not be used in AoC, I said they will not be in the game officially at launch. We agree on that.. what we do not agree on is whether it is moral or not. And from everything I have taken from your posts, is that you do not care about morals, you only care about getting to the top, no matter what you have to do to get there. The perfect example is that you are willing to tell the developer to basically F off, because you will do what you want, whether it ruins the spirit of the game or not. And for that, I do not respect you or anyone who uses them against the Devs rules.
In the end, we both know trackers will be used.. But only one of us will know what it is to truly earn what we have in game.
I do care about my own, and my morals do not change just because a game has a different set of rules.
My morals in relation to this are that I will use them, and up until the point I agree to an EULA that prevents them, I will openly talk about the fact that I will use them, as well as discuss some of the basic principles of how the two I am following will work.
I am doing this because that gives Intrepid all the information they need to know they won't be able to prevent their use.
Basically, my morals on this point see me as little more than an open book.
That said, I still don't care what you think of any of this. I am guided by my morals, not yours. You are welcome to have your own, I neither care about them nor have any interest in trying to alter them.
And I want the game to be designed with this in mind, you don't.
At best, you will have 12 months of game time where combat trackers are kept somewhat in the shadows. Then you will have a game not designed for combat trackers, but that has many players using combat trackers.
A far better plan would be to design the game with the idea that combat trackers will be used from day one - how ever Intrepid want to take that in to consideration. Then you will always have a game that is designed based on it's own reality.
To not design the game with them in mind is not a whole lot different to burying your head in the sand and yelling "IF I CAN'T SEE YOU, YOU ARE NOT REAL!"
This is what you are suggesting as the best course of action.
Taking this back to morals, my morals here are guiding me to give Intrepid the information they may want to consider in order to make the best decisions for the game. Your morals are guiding you to be happy that the game is being designed with with the games creative director having his head buried in the sand )at least in this situation), and are happy at the fallout that this will create down the line.
While I am sure you are happy with your mortal compass here - and I am not at all trying to alter that - you should be able to see why others may look at this and be displeased with your position - as it is blatantly not the best position for the game.
This is why you shouldn't complain about others morals - others will always be able to find things wrong with your own.
I'll rephrase, "Because the focus is primarily on what the numbers say..."
The focus is still on the encounter, the numbers just back things up.
At least, that is the case if you know what you are doing - I can agree that people that don't know what they -are doing may just focus on numbers - and people that don't know what they are doing may even think that is what everyone does.
Just look at wow retail when the best guilds try to take down the new raids. They spend soooo much time trying to figure out the boss before it's released, then they spend hours and hours trying to take down the boss by both figure out the boss mechanics via the combat tracker, but mostly by learning the fight by doing the fight.
We all know that doing a fight is much better than trying to figure it out just by the numbers. But the numbers are very very useful and helpful when progressing on a boss encounter, or trying to optimize the boss kill afterwards (speed clears).
As if there aren't so many players who "don't know what they're doing" that the game experience in general doesn't become so toxic that it warrants Steven choosing not to include combat trackers.
When tools get banned, it's not because there are no people using the tool responsibly. Tools get banned when a significant number of people believe using the tool is a bane for society in general.
If it never happened, Steven would not be opposed to including combat trackers.
If it didn't happen with significant frequency, Steven would not be opposed to including combat trackers.
No one has argued that the numbers can't be useful.
This isn't exactly a great argument here. When we are analyzing the encounter via combat trackers, we don't have access to the encounter, so we don't have the option to focus on the encounter.
As if the people that cause toxicity while using a combat tracker wouldn't be toxic without one.
And keep in mind, these two threads are not including the 75 page mega thread on combat trackers.
When you make your own game, you get to base what's in it on your own philosophy.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
You spent the entire post saying you play by only your rules, and screw everyone else. I know you have people that agree with you on this topic, but that does not make you right. When the rules state they shall not be used and you use them anyway... you are immoral for doing so. The EULA will not stop you from using them, it will only make you discreet in that area.
Anyone who knows what a tracker is and what they do, knows that they will be used in this game, including me, even if it is against the rules. So you can stop turning to your "IF I CAN'T SEE YOU, YOU ARE NOT REAL!" argument... I have shown in the past, many of times, I know they will be there. Adding trackers to the game does not make the game better, it only gives you a clear conscience in using them.
You basically are trying to force Steven's hand by saying... "Look Steven.. people are going to cheat against your rules, so you might as well add them so we are not considered cheaters". Great attitude buddy...
You are very passionate on two topics I noticed.. Why people quit MMOs, which is losing according to you... and trackers... maybe this explains things?
I agree with Steven in that too much reliance on DPS meters breeds toxicity.
However, tough raid boss mechanics and failing them causes much more of that.
DPS meters I think at most will be used as gatekeepers from high end raid groups. Otherwise I think I have grown to be fine with them, so long as they are used for self improvement rather than more discriminatory options.
its either that or PvP or PvE or Corruption. It changes every week
Or the name Tank.... so many glitches in the matrix I swear.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
A person with no morals... is amoral.. I said you were immoral. I'll wait while you google it.
Stop bickering about morals please and go back to discussing the actual matter at hand, even if you disagree on them.
No need for ad hominems here. We're all nerds. One digital world. One people (and yes that is a Falcon and the Winter Soldier reference).
No need to pay attention to us
I can't really comment on that other to say that Steven loves to participate in guilds and raids.
And he feels that relying on the combat trackers is too toxic for guilds for him to want to include them in Ashes.
I'm just saying that agrees with my experience with groups who rely on combat trackers.
Now, if Ashes had a combat tracker, I would most likely not complain overly much.
I hate seeing other players get kicked from the group with very little advice about how to improve - just a complaint that they had low numbers on the combat tracker. But, even when I get kicked, that doesn't cause me to ragequit like forcing me into unwanted PvP combat does.
When I lead groups, I don't care how long it takes to figure out to clear a dungeon. I don't care how many times we wipe. What I care about is adventuring with the group I have and helping everyone devise winning strategies from the POV of the characters, rather than the POV of the player (based on analysis from a combat tracker).
I share the same philosophy as Steven.
What I find most fascinating is that when PvEers complain about Corruption, they are told they shouldn't be advocating to change the design. But, when it's combat trackers, all of a sudden it's OK to rant about how that should be changed.
Different playstyles are going to have different philosphies about what should be in the game.
Frequently, those playstyles will have philosophies that clash.
But, we just have to go with Steven decides is best for the game.
As far as we know, combat trackers won't be implemented by the Ashes devs.
Of course, we've probably got at least 2 more years before launch. A lot of stuff is subject to change.
New World changed more significant features than a mere combat tracker before launch.
Similar to Corruption, we'll have to play before we can meaningfully evaluate playing without a combat tracker in Ashes.