Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
They said this with GW2 as well, because they took a similar stance to the one Steven is taking now.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
How many years after launch were they available, because I played that game at launch, I can tell you they were not used then and for a few years after.
They were used at launch, but since ArenaNet had the same philosophy as Steven had now- banningnpeople they catch using them - people using them weren't overly overt about the fact.
It was a few years in to the game when they diacoverds that more than 50% of the playerbase were running them, and so they realized they had to alter their stance.
While things may go different for Ashes, there is no real reason to assume that will be the case.
First of all... There was zero content in GW2 at launch or for the next 2 years that required a tracker
I'm not saying there was.
I am saying people used them regardless.
That is like saying you used a calculator on math test where the answers were provided....
No.
It's more like saying many people used a combat tracker in an MMO on content that didn't need it, because many people just enjoy using combat trackers.
In fact, that is exactly what it is.
---
I didn't answer your question because literally no MMO has not had combat trackers availiable for it in some form at launch since at least before UO. I can't name an MMO that failed because it didn't have a combat tracker, because I can't name an MMO that didn't have a combat tracker.
UO had combat trackers, L2 had combat trackers (one of the guys that devloped a combat tracker for L2 is working on one for Ashes), even Runescape had combat trackers.
I have looked everywhere trying to find the oldest tracker I could .. 2008 to 2011 is the oldest I have found so far.. the 2008 was actually for EQ2... and that was 4 years after the game came out. 2011 was your advertised tracker and while I did not look for what game, I can say it was 14 years after UO launched, and 7 to 8 years after L2 and WoW were launched. You may have more info on the history of trackers, and if you do.. please share.
Your argument seems to fall on the fact that all of these games have trackers now... but you cannot show that these games used trackers heavily at launch. While I agree they may have existed at launch... they were not what they are now. They were not as important back then because the games were played for different reasons back then..
And back then, is where Steven is trying to take us with AoC. So that is why your trackers do not fit in this game.
Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.
That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?
I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).
I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.
This is easy, how do you measure fighters IRL without DPS meters and other addons?
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is easy, how do you measure fighters IRL without DPS meters and other addons?
The amount of blood, sweat and broken bones
No, you either go into a competition to perform feats. Light have them to fight the same enemy and see damage taken, and time taken to defeat the enemy. Or spar against each other.
Your argument seems to fall on the fact that all of these games have trackers now... but you cannot show that these games used trackers heavily at launch.
I never said they were used heavily, I said they were available.
Back in the 90's and early 2000's, it was more of a clandestine type of community than it is now. People assumed they were fine to use as they were simply using information the games were providing - but no one had asked any developers to check that their use was ok. No one wanted to because no one wanted them to say no.
Combat tracker use started to go up around 2003, they were widely used during WoW vanilla raiding, with Recount being the most common (but neither the first nor only, and also wasnt the best featured) tracker used back then. This happened before raiding in WoW took off in popularity.
Many of the trackers that were made for specific games have since been made redundant by multi-game trackers like ACT. This is why you would have trouble finding much before 2008, most of that simply doesn't exist any more.
Now, it may well be that Steven has grand plans to bring MMO's back to 2003 or some such. The thing is, players have different expectations now.
We now expect better graphics. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better UI. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better controls. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better security. Ashes will have that.
We now expect more in-game options. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better communication channels. Ashes will have that.
Players expect more details in their guild systems. Ashes will have that.
You cant just say that Ashes wont have a thing because you (and Steven) didnt know it was around in 2003. There are many things player expect now that they didnt have back then that Ashes is going to cater towards.
Combat trackers - or at least better access to information - are one of those things that people now expect in an MMO.
As GW2 should demonstrate to anyone paying attention, the people will have what they expect, developer be damned.
And at the end of the day, that is my argument. People that want a tracker will have a tracker. What you have to say about it doesn't matter. What I have to say about it doesn't matter. What Steven has to say about it doesn't matter. We can sit here and argue this all we want, or we can realize that people will indeed have a tracker if they want it, and then discuss what the best action to take with that information in hand is.
My suggestion for the last several years has been to take that piece of information that people that want a tracker will have one, and work out the basic minimum functionality that would need to be available for the people that want a tracker to not have to resort to third party trackers.
That minimum functionality is for the tracker to track their raid, and since their raid will be made up of members of their guild, that is another viable restriction..
From there, I came up with the idea of making a tracker a guild perk in Ashes, where guilds that dont value it have plenty of other options to pick instead. Guilds that do pick this tracker have it only work on members of their guild, that are in a group or raid with them.
Build that in to the game and you kill off the need for third party combat trackers.
That is my argument. Everything else is discussion.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is easy, how do you measure fighters IRL without DPS meters and other addons?
The amount of blood, sweat and broken bones
No, you either go into a competition to perform feats. Light have them to fight the same enemy and see damage taken, and time taken to defeat the enemy. Or spar against each other.
I was making a joke but sure
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Your argument seems to fall on the fact that all of these games have trackers now... but you cannot show that these games used trackers heavily at launch.
I never said they were used heavily, I said they were available.
Back in the 90's and early 2000's, it was more of a clandestine type of community than it is now. People assumed they were fine to use as they were simply using information the games were providing - but no one had asked any developers to check that their use was ok. No one wanted to because no one wanted them to say no.
Combat tracker use started to go up around 2003, they were widely used during WoW vanilla raiding, with Recount being the most common (but neither the first nor only, and also wasnt the best featured) tracker used back then. This happened before raiding in WoW took off in popularity.
Many of the trackers that were made for specific games have since been made redundant by multi-game trackers like ACT. This is why you would have trouble finding much before 2008, most of that simply doesn't exist any more.
Now, it may well be that Steven has grand plans to bring MMO's back to 2003 or some such. The thing is, players have different expectations now.
We now expect better graphics. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better UI. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better controls. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better security. Ashes will have that.
We now expect more in-game options. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better communication channels. Ashes will have that.
Players expect more details in their guild systems. Ashes will have that.
You cant just say that Ashes wont have a thing because you (and Steven) didnt know it was around in 2003. There are many things player expect now that they didnt have back then that Ashes is going to cater towards.
Combat trackers - or at least better access to information - are one of those things that people now expect in an MMO.
As GW2 should demonstrate to anyone paying attention, the people will have what they expect, developer be damned.
And at the end of the day, that is my argument. People that want a tracker will have a tracker. What you have to say about it doesn't matter. What I have to say about it doesn't matter. What Steven has to say about it doesn't matter. We can sit here and argue this all we want, or we can realize that people will indeed have a tracker if they want it, and then discuss what the best action to take with that information in hand is.
My suggestion for the last several years has been to take that piece of information that people that want a tracker will have one, and work out the basic minimum functionality that would need to be available for the people that want a tracker to not have to resort to third party trackers.
That minimum functionality is for the tracker to track their raid, and since their raid will be made up of members of their guild, that is another viable restriction..
From there, I came up with the idea of making a tracker a guild perk in Ashes, where guilds that dont value it have plenty of other options to pick instead. Guilds that do pick this tracker have it only work on members of their guild, that are in a group or raid with them.
Build that in to the game and you kill off the need for third party combat trackers.
That is my argument. Everything else is discussion.
I have not once said that trackers will not be used in AoC, I said they will not be in the game officially at launch. We agree on that.. what we do not agree on is whether it is moral or not. And from everything I have taken from your posts, is that you do not care about morals, you only care about getting to the top, no matter what you have to do to get there. The perfect example is that you are willing to tell the developer to basically F off, because you will do what you want, whether it ruins the spirit of the game or not. And for that, I do not respect you or anyone who uses them against the Devs rules.
In the end, we both know trackers will be used.. But only one of us will know what it is to truly earn what we have in game.
And from everything I have taken from your posts, is that you do not care about morals
I do not care about your morals - or other peoples morals.
I do care about my own, and my morals do not change just because a game has a different set of rules.
My morals in relation to this are that I will use them, and up until the point I agree to an EULA that prevents them, I will openly talk about the fact that I will use them, as well as discuss some of the basic principles of how the two I am following will work.
I am doing this because that gives Intrepid all the information they need to know they won't be able to prevent their use.
Basically, my morals on this point see me as little more than an open book.
That said, I still don't care what you think of any of this. I am guided by my morals, not yours. You are welcome to have your own, I neither care about them nor have any interest in trying to alter them.
In the end, we both know trackers will be used.
And I want the game to be designed with this in mind, you don't.
At best, you will have 12 months of game time where combat trackers are kept somewhat in the shadows. Then you will have a game not designed for combat trackers, but that has many players using combat trackers.
A far better plan would be to design the game with the idea that combat trackers will be used from day one - how ever Intrepid want to take that in to consideration. Then you will always have a game that is designed based on it's own reality.
To not design the game with them in mind is not a whole lot different to burying your head in the sand and yelling "IF I CAN'T SEE YOU, YOU ARE NOT REAL!"
This is what you are suggesting as the best course of action.
Taking this back to morals, my morals here are guiding me to give Intrepid the information they may want to consider in order to make the best decisions for the game. Your morals are guiding you to be happy that the game is being designed with with the games creative director having his head buried in the sand )at least in this situation), and are happy at the fallout that this will create down the line.
While I am sure you are happy with your mortal compass here - and I am not at all trying to alter that - you should be able to see why others may look at this and be displeased with your position - as it is blatantly not the best position for the game.
This is why you shouldn't complain about others morals - others will always be able to find things wrong with your own.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you think people that use combat tracker heavily, do not discuses how to synergize abilities and tactics based on observations during combat you are so wrong. Hardcore player (since it's those who uses combat tracker the most) talk more about the raid encounter and how to "synergize" more than any other player. They play the game more than anyone and talk about it more than anyone. Saying that they only look at the numbers is so false it's funny.
I guess including the word all, obscured my intended meaning of focus.
I'll rephrase, "Because the focus is primarily on what the numbers say..."
I'll rephrase, "Because the focus is primarily on what the numbers say..."
Even that isn't accurate.
The focus is still on the encounter, the numbers just back things up.
At least, that is the case if you know what you are doing - I can agree that people that don't know what they -are doing may just focus on numbers - and people that don't know what they are doing may even think that is what everyone does.
If you think people that use combat tracker heavily, do not discuses how to synergize abilities and tactics based on observations during combat you are so wrong. Hardcore player (since it's those who uses combat tracker the most) talk more about the raid encounter and how to "synergize" more than any other player. They play the game more than anyone and talk about it more than anyone. Saying that they only look at the numbers is so false it's funny.
I guess including the word all, obscured my intended meaning of focus.
I'll rephrase, "Because the focus is primarily on what the numbers say..."
Just look at wow retail when the best guilds try to take down the new raids. They spend soooo much time trying to figure out the boss before it's released, then they spend hours and hours trying to take down the boss by both figure out the boss mechanics via the combat tracker, but mostly by learning the fight by doing the fight.
We all know that doing a fight is much better than trying to figure it out just by the numbers. But the numbers are very very useful and helpful when progressing on a boss encounter, or trying to optimize the boss kill afterwards (speed clears).
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
At least, that is the case if you know what you are doing - I can agree that people that don't know what they -are doing may just focus on numbers - and people that don't know what they are doing may even think that is what everyone does.
As if there aren't so many players who "don't know what they're doing" that the game experience in general doesn't become so toxic that it warrants Steven choosing not to include combat trackers.
When tools get banned, it's not because there are no people using the tool responsibly. Tools get banned when a significant number of people believe using the tool is a bane for society in general.
If it never happened, Steven would not be opposed to including combat trackers.
If it didn't happen with significant frequency, Steven would not be opposed to including combat trackers.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just look at wow retail when the best guilds try to take down the new raids. They spend soooo much time trying to figure out the boss before it's released, then they spend hours and hours trying to take down the boss by both figure out the boss mechanics via the combat tracker, but mostly by learning the fight by doing the fight.
We all know that doing a fight is much better than trying to figure it out just by the numbers. But the numbers are very very useful and helpful when progressing on a boss encounter, or trying to optimize the boss kill afterwards (speed clears).
What percentage of the overall player population constitutes the best guilds?
No one has argued that the numbers can't be useful.
The focus is still on the encounter, the numbers just back things up.
When analyzing the encounter, the focus is primarily on the numbers.
I mean, sure, but analyzing the encounter usually happens the next day when the raid is not at the encounter. It often happens while people are at work, in fact.
This isn't exactly a great argument here. When we are analyzing the encounter via combat trackers, we don't have access to the encounter, so we don't have the option to focus on the encounter.
As if there aren't so many players who "don't know what they're doing" that the game experience in general doesn't become so toxic that it warrants Steven choosing not to include combat trackers
As if the people that cause toxicity while using a combat tracker wouldn't be toxic without one.
As if the people that cause toxicity while using a combat tracker wouldn't be toxic without one.
Steven believes that is generally true, due to his experiences with MMORPGs, and Steven is the one making the decisions on features and mechanics are implemented.
When you make your own game, you get to base what's in it on your own philosophy.
And from everything I have taken from your posts, is that you do not care about morals
I do not care about your morals - or other peoples morals.
I do care about my own, and my morals do not change just because a game has a different set of rules.
My morals in relation to this are that I will use them, and up until the point I agree to an EULA that prevents them, I will openly talk about the fact that I will use them, as well as discuss some of the basic principles of how the two I am following will work.
I am doing this because that gives Intrepid all the information they need to know they won't be able to prevent their use.
Basically, my morals on this point see me as little more than an open book.
That said, I still don't care what you think of any of this. I am guided by my morals, not yours. You are welcome to have your own, I neither care about them nor have any interest in trying to alter them.
In the end, we both know trackers will be used.
And I want the game to be designed with this in mind, you don't.
At best, you will have 12 months of game time where combat trackers are kept somewhat in the shadows. Then you will have a game not designed for combat trackers, but that has many players using combat trackers.
A far better plan would be to design the game with the idea that combat trackers will be used from day one - how ever Intrepid want to take that in to consideration. Then you will always have a game that is designed based on it's own reality.
To not design the game with them in mind is not a whole lot different to burying your head in the sand and yelling "IF I CAN'T SEE YOU, YOU ARE NOT REAL!"
This is what you are suggesting as the best course of action.
Taking this back to morals, my morals here are guiding me to give Intrepid the information they may want to consider in order to make the best decisions for the game. Your morals are guiding you to be happy that the game is being designed with with the games creative director having his head buried in the sand )at least in this situation), and are happy at the fallout that this will create down the line.
While I am sure you are happy with your mortal compass here - and I am not at all trying to alter that - you should be able to see why others may look at this and be displeased with your position - as it is blatantly not the best position for the game.
This is why you shouldn't complain about others morals - others will always be able to find things wrong with your own.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
You spent the entire post saying you play by only your rules, and screw everyone else. I know you have people that agree with you on this topic, but that does not make you right. When the rules state they shall not be used and you use them anyway... you are immoral for doing so. The EULA will not stop you from using them, it will only make you discreet in that area.
Anyone who knows what a tracker is and what they do, knows that they will be used in this game, including me, even if it is against the rules. So you can stop turning to your "IF I CAN'T SEE YOU, YOU ARE NOT REAL!" argument... I have shown in the past, many of times, I know they will be there. Adding trackers to the game does not make the game better, it only gives you a clear conscience in using them.
You basically are trying to force Steven's hand by saying... "Look Steven.. people are going to cheat against your rules, so you might as well add them so we are not considered cheaters". Great attitude buddy...
You are very passionate on two topics I noticed.. Why people quit MMOs, which is losing according to you... and trackers... maybe this explains things?
As if the people that cause toxicity while using a combat tracker wouldn't be toxic without one.
Steven believes that is generally true, due to his experiences with MMORPGs, and Steven is the one making the decisions on features and mechanics are implemented.
When you make your own game, you get to base what's in it on your own philosophy.
I agree with Steven in that too much reliance on DPS meters breeds toxicity.
However, tough raid boss mechanics and failing them causes much more of that.
DPS meters I think at most will be used as gatekeepers from high end raid groups. Otherwise I think I have grown to be fine with them, so long as they are used for self improvement rather than more discriminatory options.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
A person with no morals... is amoral.. I said you were immoral. I'll wait while you google it.
Could you guys not get a room? All this sexual tension is giving the thread a weird vibe.
Stop bickering about morals please and go back to discussing the actual matter at hand, even if you disagree on them.
No need for ad hominems here. We're all nerds. One digital world. One people (and yes that is a Falcon and the Winter Soldier reference).
No need to pay attention to us Plenty of other great posts in this thread to read.. juts skip mine if you feel the need to, it will not hurt my feelings.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree with Steven in that too much reliance on DPS meters breeds toxicity.
However, tough raid boss mechanics and failing them causes much more of that.
DPS meters I think at most will be used as gatekeepers from high end raid groups. Otherwise I think I have grown to be fine with them, so long as they are used for self improvement rather than more discriminatory options.
I am not a raider. And I typically am not in guilds.
I can't really comment on that other to say that Steven loves to participate in guilds and raids.
And he feels that relying on the combat trackers is too toxic for guilds for him to want to include them in Ashes.
I'm just saying that agrees with my experience with groups who rely on combat trackers.
Now, if Ashes had a combat tracker, I would most likely not complain overly much.
I hate seeing other players get kicked from the group with very little advice about how to improve - just a complaint that they had low numbers on the combat tracker. But, even when I get kicked, that doesn't cause me to ragequit like forcing me into unwanted PvP combat does.
When I lead groups, I don't care how long it takes to figure out to clear a dungeon. I don't care how many times we wipe. What I care about is adventuring with the group I have and helping everyone devise winning strategies from the POV of the characters, rather than the POV of the player (based on analysis from a combat tracker).
I share the same philosophy as Steven.
What I find most fascinating is that when PvEers complain about Corruption, they are told they shouldn't be advocating to change the design. But, when it's combat trackers, all of a sudden it's OK to rant about how that should be changed.
Different playstyles are going to have different philosphies about what should be in the game.
Frequently, those playstyles will have philosophies that clash.
But, we just have to go with Steven decides is best for the game.
As far as we know, combat trackers won't be implemented by the Ashes devs.
Of course, we've probably got at least 2 more years before launch. A lot of stuff is subject to change.
New World changed more significant features than a mere combat tracker before launch.
Similar to Corruption, we'll have to play before we can meaningfully evaluate playing without a combat tracker in Ashes.
What I find most fascinating is that when PvEers complain about Corruption, they are told they shouldn't be advocating to change the design. But, when it's combat trackers, all of a sudden it's OK to rant about how that should be changed.
I would say that is the difference between a core mechanic and what is essentially an add-on. So not quite on the same level.
That's as if you were to say you find it odd that some people stop other from complaining about losing your souls in a Soulsborne game, but they were ok with adding a timer or dps meter in it. One is unnecessary to the enjoyment of the content, and the other is a core game mechanic.
As it doesn't affect the core of gameplay, it is fine to be discussed as an added option. But wanting to change the Corruption system, because people are afraid of not being able to gank free of repercussion/afraid somehow people will magically be able to suicide by player in order to corrupt them, is a whole different matter.
Also most people complaining about Corruption are by far people who hope to PvP rampage through the world like in WoW second phase.
With that being said, I wholly agree with this part:
Different playstyles are going to have different philosphies about what should be in the game.
Frequently, those playstyles will have philosophies that clash.
But, we just have to go with Steven decides is best for the game.
As far as we know, combat trackers won't be implemented by the Ashes devs.
Of course, we've probably got at least 2 more years before launch. A lot of stuff is subject to change.
New World changed more significant features than a mere combat tracker before launch.
Similar to Corruption, we'll have to play before we can meaningfully evaluate playing without a combat tracker in Ashes.
Comments
This is a good point that I hadn't considered.
If I were a combat tracker developer and wanted to increase my sales (or donations), I wouldn't be doing that here.
I have looked everywhere trying to find the oldest tracker I could .. 2008 to 2011 is the oldest I have found so far.. the 2008 was actually for EQ2... and that was 4 years after the game came out. 2011 was your advertised tracker and while I did not look for what game, I can say it was 14 years after UO launched, and 7 to 8 years after L2 and WoW were launched. You may have more info on the history of trackers, and if you do.. please share.
Your argument seems to fall on the fact that all of these games have trackers now... but you cannot show that these games used trackers heavily at launch. While I agree they may have existed at launch... they were not what they are now. They were not as important back then because the games were played for different reasons back then..
And back then, is where Steven is trying to take us with AoC. So that is why your trackers do not fit in this game.
This is easy, how do you measure fighters IRL without DPS meters and other addons?
The amount of blood, sweat and broken bones
No, you either go into a competition to perform feats. Light have them to fight the same enemy and see damage taken, and time taken to defeat the enemy. Or spar against each other.
Back in the 90's and early 2000's, it was more of a clandestine type of community than it is now. People assumed they were fine to use as they were simply using information the games were providing - but no one had asked any developers to check that their use was ok. No one wanted to because no one wanted them to say no.
Combat tracker use started to go up around 2003, they were widely used during WoW vanilla raiding, with Recount being the most common (but neither the first nor only, and also wasnt the best featured) tracker used back then. This happened before raiding in WoW took off in popularity.
Many of the trackers that were made for specific games have since been made redundant by multi-game trackers like ACT. This is why you would have trouble finding much before 2008, most of that simply doesn't exist any more.
Now, it may well be that Steven has grand plans to bring MMO's back to 2003 or some such. The thing is, players have different expectations now.
We now expect better graphics. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better UI. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better controls. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better security. Ashes will have that.
We now expect more in-game options. Ashes will have that.
We now expect better communication channels. Ashes will have that.
Players expect more details in their guild systems. Ashes will have that.
You cant just say that Ashes wont have a thing because you (and Steven) didnt know it was around in 2003. There are many things player expect now that they didnt have back then that Ashes is going to cater towards.
Combat trackers - or at least better access to information - are one of those things that people now expect in an MMO.
As GW2 should demonstrate to anyone paying attention, the people will have what they expect, developer be damned.
And at the end of the day, that is my argument. People that want a tracker will have a tracker. What you have to say about it doesn't matter. What I have to say about it doesn't matter. What Steven has to say about it doesn't matter. We can sit here and argue this all we want, or we can realize that people will indeed have a tracker if they want it, and then discuss what the best action to take with that information in hand is.
My suggestion for the last several years has been to take that piece of information that people that want a tracker will have one, and work out the basic minimum functionality that would need to be available for the people that want a tracker to not have to resort to third party trackers.
That minimum functionality is for the tracker to track their raid, and since their raid will be made up of members of their guild, that is another viable restriction..
From there, I came up with the idea of making a tracker a guild perk in Ashes, where guilds that dont value it have plenty of other options to pick instead. Guilds that do pick this tracker have it only work on members of their guild, that are in a group or raid with them.
Build that in to the game and you kill off the need for third party combat trackers.
That is my argument. Everything else is discussion.
I was making a joke but sure
Fact.
The first combat trackers only measured broken bones. This had to change with the introduction of gelatinous cube enemies.
Can a gelatinous cube be made in to a zombie?
I have not once said that trackers will not be used in AoC, I said they will not be in the game officially at launch. We agree on that.. what we do not agree on is whether it is moral or not. And from everything I have taken from your posts, is that you do not care about morals, you only care about getting to the top, no matter what you have to do to get there. The perfect example is that you are willing to tell the developer to basically F off, because you will do what you want, whether it ruins the spirit of the game or not. And for that, I do not respect you or anyone who uses them against the Devs rules.
In the end, we both know trackers will be used.. But only one of us will know what it is to truly earn what we have in game.
I do care about my own, and my morals do not change just because a game has a different set of rules.
My morals in relation to this are that I will use them, and up until the point I agree to an EULA that prevents them, I will openly talk about the fact that I will use them, as well as discuss some of the basic principles of how the two I am following will work.
I am doing this because that gives Intrepid all the information they need to know they won't be able to prevent their use.
Basically, my morals on this point see me as little more than an open book.
That said, I still don't care what you think of any of this. I am guided by my morals, not yours. You are welcome to have your own, I neither care about them nor have any interest in trying to alter them.
And I want the game to be designed with this in mind, you don't.
At best, you will have 12 months of game time where combat trackers are kept somewhat in the shadows. Then you will have a game not designed for combat trackers, but that has many players using combat trackers.
A far better plan would be to design the game with the idea that combat trackers will be used from day one - how ever Intrepid want to take that in to consideration. Then you will always have a game that is designed based on it's own reality.
To not design the game with them in mind is not a whole lot different to burying your head in the sand and yelling "IF I CAN'T SEE YOU, YOU ARE NOT REAL!"
This is what you are suggesting as the best course of action.
Taking this back to morals, my morals here are guiding me to give Intrepid the information they may want to consider in order to make the best decisions for the game. Your morals are guiding you to be happy that the game is being designed with with the games creative director having his head buried in the sand )at least in this situation), and are happy at the fallout that this will create down the line.
While I am sure you are happy with your mortal compass here - and I am not at all trying to alter that - you should be able to see why others may look at this and be displeased with your position - as it is blatantly not the best position for the game.
This is why you shouldn't complain about others morals - others will always be able to find things wrong with your own.
I'll rephrase, "Because the focus is primarily on what the numbers say..."
The focus is still on the encounter, the numbers just back things up.
At least, that is the case if you know what you are doing - I can agree that people that don't know what they -are doing may just focus on numbers - and people that don't know what they are doing may even think that is what everyone does.
Just look at wow retail when the best guilds try to take down the new raids. They spend soooo much time trying to figure out the boss before it's released, then they spend hours and hours trying to take down the boss by both figure out the boss mechanics via the combat tracker, but mostly by learning the fight by doing the fight.
We all know that doing a fight is much better than trying to figure it out just by the numbers. But the numbers are very very useful and helpful when progressing on a boss encounter, or trying to optimize the boss kill afterwards (speed clears).
As if there aren't so many players who "don't know what they're doing" that the game experience in general doesn't become so toxic that it warrants Steven choosing not to include combat trackers.
When tools get banned, it's not because there are no people using the tool responsibly. Tools get banned when a significant number of people believe using the tool is a bane for society in general.
If it never happened, Steven would not be opposed to including combat trackers.
If it didn't happen with significant frequency, Steven would not be opposed to including combat trackers.
No one has argued that the numbers can't be useful.
This isn't exactly a great argument here. When we are analyzing the encounter via combat trackers, we don't have access to the encounter, so we don't have the option to focus on the encounter.
As if the people that cause toxicity while using a combat tracker wouldn't be toxic without one.
And keep in mind, these two threads are not including the 75 page mega thread on combat trackers.
When you make your own game, you get to base what's in it on your own philosophy.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
You spent the entire post saying you play by only your rules, and screw everyone else. I know you have people that agree with you on this topic, but that does not make you right. When the rules state they shall not be used and you use them anyway... you are immoral for doing so. The EULA will not stop you from using them, it will only make you discreet in that area.
Anyone who knows what a tracker is and what they do, knows that they will be used in this game, including me, even if it is against the rules. So you can stop turning to your "IF I CAN'T SEE YOU, YOU ARE NOT REAL!" argument... I have shown in the past, many of times, I know they will be there. Adding trackers to the game does not make the game better, it only gives you a clear conscience in using them.
You basically are trying to force Steven's hand by saying... "Look Steven.. people are going to cheat against your rules, so you might as well add them so we are not considered cheaters". Great attitude buddy...
You are very passionate on two topics I noticed.. Why people quit MMOs, which is losing according to you... and trackers... maybe this explains things?
I agree with Steven in that too much reliance on DPS meters breeds toxicity.
However, tough raid boss mechanics and failing them causes much more of that.
DPS meters I think at most will be used as gatekeepers from high end raid groups. Otherwise I think I have grown to be fine with them, so long as they are used for self improvement rather than more discriminatory options.
its either that or PvP or PvE or Corruption. It changes every week
Or the name Tank.... so many glitches in the matrix I swear.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
A person with no morals... is amoral.. I said you were immoral. I'll wait while you google it.
Stop bickering about morals please and go back to discussing the actual matter at hand, even if you disagree on them.
No need for ad hominems here. We're all nerds. One digital world. One people (and yes that is a Falcon and the Winter Soldier reference).
No need to pay attention to us
I can't really comment on that other to say that Steven loves to participate in guilds and raids.
And he feels that relying on the combat trackers is too toxic for guilds for him to want to include them in Ashes.
I'm just saying that agrees with my experience with groups who rely on combat trackers.
Now, if Ashes had a combat tracker, I would most likely not complain overly much.
I hate seeing other players get kicked from the group with very little advice about how to improve - just a complaint that they had low numbers on the combat tracker. But, even when I get kicked, that doesn't cause me to ragequit like forcing me into unwanted PvP combat does.
When I lead groups, I don't care how long it takes to figure out to clear a dungeon. I don't care how many times we wipe. What I care about is adventuring with the group I have and helping everyone devise winning strategies from the POV of the characters, rather than the POV of the player (based on analysis from a combat tracker).
I share the same philosophy as Steven.
What I find most fascinating is that when PvEers complain about Corruption, they are told they shouldn't be advocating to change the design. But, when it's combat trackers, all of a sudden it's OK to rant about how that should be changed.
Different playstyles are going to have different philosphies about what should be in the game.
Frequently, those playstyles will have philosophies that clash.
But, we just have to go with Steven decides is best for the game.
As far as we know, combat trackers won't be implemented by the Ashes devs.
Of course, we've probably got at least 2 more years before launch. A lot of stuff is subject to change.
New World changed more significant features than a mere combat tracker before launch.
Similar to Corruption, we'll have to play before we can meaningfully evaluate playing without a combat tracker in Ashes.
Ahahah that one is fantastic
I would say that is the difference between a core mechanic and what is essentially an add-on. So not quite on the same level.
That's as if you were to say you find it odd that some people stop other from complaining about losing your souls in a Soulsborne game, but they were ok with adding a timer or dps meter in it. One is unnecessary to the enjoyment of the content, and the other is a core game mechanic.
As it doesn't affect the core of gameplay, it is fine to be discussed as an added option. But wanting to change the Corruption system, because people are afraid of not being able to gank free of repercussion/afraid somehow people will magically be able to suicide by player in order to corrupt them, is a whole different matter.
Also most people complaining about Corruption are by far people who hope to PvP rampage through the world like in WoW second phase.
With that being said, I wholly agree with this part: