then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?
Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups.
It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical.
if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.
Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game.
mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.
I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence.
AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.
I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group.
I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..
I'll say it again:
I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with.
There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online.
Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible.
Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.
So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.
How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level)
It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world?
And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD)
The issue is not hardcore guilds in any way shape or form. People who join those guilds, as you said, know what they are getting into. So if they get booted after a raid... sure they will be pissed, and it will cause drama, but such is the nature when you live in a cutthroat society.
I play a crapfest of a game called Outriders.
It has a combat tracker.
Combat tracker means nothing to me because I truly do not care about the game, the game is basically a time waster to me. I do not even look at it after a solo round.
My friend plays as well.
When we play together, I find myself looking at the tracker.. sense of pride maybe, or I just like know if I am better than he is.
Problem is...I am better... way better... When I put up 100 million damage... He puts up 60 million damage.
So why is it, that a casual player of a game, who does not really even like the game... still judges his friend's damage output, and usually tries to play solo, more than he does with his friend..
ANSWER: Human Nature.
And that is what will happen if a combat tracker is put in AoC... even the casual players will start to distance themselves from people who do not perform to a certain level. And that will create a toxic environment even if it is a passive aggressive one.
Casual players won't really care about the combat tracker, and if you do then you have a mind set of a more hardcore player rather than a casual player.
My guild is a living example of a guild that is casual and uses combat trackers for fun, we do not care about how much you parse or how good you are. We know we are casual player and that is why we do not have any special requirements when it comes to dps or hps.
So no, casual players will still be casual players. But yes, some casual players may find them self wanting more, wanting more dps, wanting to do better, and they will maybe some day be the best doser in a hardcore guild. But who knows?
I have some issues with damage trackers/meters, (note im not a big mmo player, hoping this will be the one for me) but this reminds me of the discussion between asmongold and mconnel recently, the issue is a a domino effect.
Someone does not do enough damage -people wont give them a chance to join raids-they are unable to get better gear-unable to do enough dmg-people wont give them a chance to join raids. and so on, it just goes in a circle
I have some issues with damage trackers/meters, (note im not a big mmo player, hoping this will be the one for me) but this reminds me of the discussion between asmongold and mconnel recently, the issue is a a domino effect.
Someone does not do enough damage -people wont give them a chance to join raids-they are unable to get better gear-unable to do enough dmg-people wont give them a chance to join raids. and so on, it just goes in a circle
Yeah, this would suck, but it also isn't an issue.
Streamers are not exactly a great source of accurate information or good opinions in regards to MMO's. The point of their existence is profit, views, not accuracy of information.
The only way the above could ever be considered an issue is in the realm of pick up raids, and the only game that has ever existed where pick up raids are a thing people expect is WoW - which has automated systems to form them for players at the bottom end.
In every other game, if you want to raid, you raid with your guild. If you are raiding with your guild and you are not up to standard, your guild assists you in getting there, and a combat tracker is the singular key tool in allowing that to happen.
I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups.
One thing I'd like to point out about this though is that they will be accountable for their toxicity in those cases. Where with the combat trackers the people who are not topping them are accountable for the toxicity against them.
This game is kinda being designed for them to be kinda useless anyway. DPS meters will be useless because most of the classes will have some form of versatility applied to them. So it will be very common for classes to do lower damage in return for other forms of support, healing, or abilities similar to that. Like there might be a class that does the most DPS in the game and how he does it is by giving everyone in an entire raid a 10% dps buff. The DPS meters will see him as doing absolutely nothing though.
Also just flat out doesn't keep track of healing or support which I said above, but that's very important for a game designed in the older MMO style. Classes in Everquest aren't actual classes like they are in other MMO's. You pick them similar to how ashes is going to, but a lot of the combinations have the ability to add a lot of ridiculous utility to your party. So when you spec into damage in everquest you are often doing 2 classes worth of direct damage. If you spec into 2 healing classes you will be doing 2 classes worth of healing.
That kind of distinction does not exist for DPS meters. So they won't be possible to use effectively in a game like this.
I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups.
One thing I'd like to point out about this though is that they will be accountable for their toxicity in those cases. Where with the combat trackers the people who are not topping them are accountable for the toxicity against them.
This game is kinda being designed for them to be kinda useless anyway. DPS meters will be useless because most of the classes will have some form of versatility applied to them. So it will be very common for classes to do lower damage in return for other forms of support, healing, or abilities similar to that. Like there might be a class that does the most DPS in the game and how he does it is by giving everyone in an entire raid a 10% dps buff. The DPS meters will see him as doing absolutely nothing though.
Also just flat out doesn't keep track of healing or support which I said above, but that's very important for a game designed in the older MMO style. Classes in Everquest aren't actual classes like they are in other MMO's. You pick them similar to how ashes is going to, but a lot of the combinations have the ability to add a lot of ridiculous utility to your party. So when you spec into damage in everquest you are often doing 2 classes worth of direct damage. If you spec into 2 healing classes you will be doing 2 classes worth of healing.
That kind of distinction does not exist for DPS meters. So they won't be possible to use effectively in a game like this.
combat trackers can show you much more than just dps meters. Buff uptimes, CC/interrupts done, dispells, healing, overhealing, damage taken, etc.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs.
I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
I have been in a twitch guild with a leader who used combat trackers.
A bunch of us stopped grouping with the guild leader and I was able to devise strategies for us to beat the end-game dungeons without the guild leader and without combat trackers.
Steven is typically a guild leader in the MMORPGs he's played and he's not supporting combat trackers in Ashes because he feels there's to much danger of them causing toxicity.
You giving me some examples has not convinced me those are not exceptions to the general circumstances.
Steven sharing my philosophy (as do many others) convinces me that my perspective is valid.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This game is kinda being designed for them to be kinda useless anyway. DPS meters will be useless because most of the classes will have some form of versatility applied to them. So it will be very common for classes to do lower damage in return for other forms of support, healing, or abilities similar to that. Like there might be a class that does the most DPS in the game and how he does it is by giving everyone in an entire raid a 10% dps buff. The DPS meters will see him as doing absolutely nothing though.
That is precisely my point.
If the game is designed to implement and support combat trackers, the game devs will design content that allow combat trackers to be more useful and meaningful. Which can be great group combat design in general but is is poor RPG design specifically.
Also just flat out doesn't keep track of healing or support which I said above, but that's very important for a game designed in the older MMO style. Classes in Everquest aren't actual classes like they are in other MMO's. You pick them similar to how ashes is going to, but a lot of the combinations have the ability to add a lot of ridiculous utility to your party. So when you spec into damage in everquest you are often doing 2 classes worth of direct damage. If you spec into 2 healing classes you will be doing 2 classes worth of healing.
That kind of distinction does not exist for DPS meters. So they won't be possible to use effectively in a game like this.
Again, I think that is precisely my point.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs.
I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
Dygz doesn't make friends in games, nor play well with others.
He is talking from a completely theoretical perspective of how he thinks things are - he has no real idea of how things actually are.
That is why he believes it when Steven says things like "combat trackers lead to toxicity". He has no experience telling him otherwise, unlike almost every single person that has been involved in MMO's at a guild level.
Noanni just likes to make shit up and pretend it's true.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have some issues with damage trackers/meters, (note im not a big mmo player, hoping this will be the one for me) but this reminds me of the discussion between asmongold and mconnel recently, the issue is a a domino effect.
Someone does not do enough damage -people wont give them a chance to join raids-they are unable to get better gear-unable to do enough dmg-people wont give them a chance to join raids. and so on, it just goes in a circle
I think in Ashes gear is just gear, so...I don't think it's going to be a thing that you can't do raids unless you've earned the proper raid gear.
We should be able to gift other players gear that can do sufficient damage.
Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs.
I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
I have been in a twitch guild with a leader who used combat trackers.
A bunch of us stopped grouping with the guild leader and I was able to devise strategies for us to beat the end-game dungeons without the guild leader and without combat trackers.
Steven is typically a guild leader in the MMORPGs he's played and he's not supporting combat trackers in Ashes because he feels there's to much danger of them causing toxicity.
You giving me some examples has not convinced me those are not exceptions to the general circumstances.
Steven sharing my philosophy (as do many others) convinces me that my perspective is valid.
So you just admitted that you succeeded to find a group to do and complete dungeons with, even though the game has a combat tracker. Meaning, that the casual players will not be affected by the combat tracker.
And my argument gave you an example that invalidated your perception that guilds, groups or raids are toxic because of the dps meters. They can be toxic because of toxic people, not because of combat trackers.
If you want to stay way from toxic groups, you should probably stay a way from twitch guilds xD
Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs.
I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
I have been in a twitch guild with a leader who used combat trackers.
A bunch of us stopped grouping with the guild leader and I was able to devise strategies for us to beat the end-game dungeons without the guild leader and without combat trackers.
What game was this in?
I've yet to see a game with group content that needs strategy rather than just good players. And never once seen group content that needs a combat tracker.
You may as well be saying that you are successfully able to participate in crafting content without a combat tracker here, as you are literally talking about parts of the game where they are not needed.
I have some issues with damage trackers/meters, (note im not a big mmo player, hoping this will be the one for me) but this reminds me of the discussion between asmongold and mconnel recently, the issue is a a domino effect.
Someone does not do enough damage -people wont give them a chance to join raids-they are unable to get better gear-unable to do enough dmg-people wont give them a chance to join raids. and so on, it just goes in a circle
I think in Ashes gear is just gear, so...I don't think it's going to be a thing that you can't do raids unless you've earned the proper raid gear.
We should be able to gift other players gear that can do sufficient damage.
Btw, do you prefer master loot or personal loot in PvE?
The debate alone causes toxicity at this point. Still not sure why the three current threads on this topic haven't been merged into the mega thread.
I've seen criticism about Steven's personal past in mmos in a parser thread and if you don't think that is toxic you're brainwashed by combat trackers and are too far gone.
I've seen criticism about Steven's personal past in mmos in a parser thread and if you don't think that is toxic you're brainwashed by combat trackers and are too far gone.
I don't see how these two points follow.
Stevens past has been criticized on a combat tracker thread - but that was in relation to his toxic behavior in other games despite not using a combat tracker and thus how he knows for a fact that combat trackers are not needed for massive amounts of toxicity to exist.
How are you blaming discussion on combat trackers for that, rather than blaming Steven for his toxic behavior in the past?
I mean, one of those two things is clearly to blame, but you have your finger pointed at the wrong one.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So you just admitted that you succeeded to find a group to do and complete dungeons with, even though the game has a combat tracker. Meaning, that the casual players will not be affected by the combat tracker.
I never claimed it was impossible to find a group to do dungeons with.
And, no, what I stated is that casual players were negatively affected by the combat tracker. That's why we stopped grouping with the twitch host/guild leader.
I wonder what you think being affected means.
And my argument gave you an example that invalidated your perception that guilds, groups or raids are toxic because of the dps meters. They can be toxic because of toxic people, not because of combat trackers.
No. You didn't invalidate anything.
Also, I don't agree that the leaders are toxic. It's relying on the combat trackers that make the leaders toxic.
It's like barring cell phones and TVs from the dining area during family dinner if what you want is to foster dialogue. What you're saying is well, that family won't talk to each other anyway even if they don't have cell phones or TV - they are just non-communicative people.
If you want to stay way from toxic groups, you should probably stay a way from twitch guilds xD
That is some really absurd logic that has you jumping from... one twitch guild that has a guild leader who uses combat trackers in a toxic manner to... you should probably stay away from twitch guilds in general.
I said that my experience is that groups and PUGs that rely on combat trackers are toxic.
You asked if I had any experience with guilds using combat trackers and I said I've had one experience with a guild that used combat trackers...and it followed the same behavior that I experienced in groups and PUGs that use combat trackers.
I didn't say anything like, "In my experience, twitch guilds tend to use combat trackers." I also didn't say that in my experience twitch guilds tend to be toxic.
I don't think I've made much commentary on guilds using combat trackers. When asked about guilds I said Steven tends to be in guilds and he agrees with my philosophy about combat trackers and toxicity.
Regarding guilds, Steven says: "It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."
If you want to debate about guilds who use combat trackers in general - you need to do that with Steven.
Prior to 2013, I refused to join guilds because guilds because most guilds have rules and regulations and mandatory time, etc - and I'm not interested in that bullshit. The twitch guild I joined for NWO had no rules or regulations.
The only soft rule was that you watched the twitch stream and so were able ask the host to let you into the guild. And the only toxicity in that guild was specifically when the host/guild leader relied on the combat tracker during dungeon runs. We did have one guy wipe out our shared bank at one point, but then we just assigned some officers to the manage the bank so it was a little less free-for-all than it was when we started, but it didn't change much.
After I burnt out on NWO, I was planning to be done with MMOs, but then I noticed that SOE had just announced EQNext a few weeks earlier and saw that my former boss at Activision was now Director Of Development and had given the pitch at PAX East.
From that, I'm now in a loose network of twitch groups and discord groups derived from EQNext/Landmark, Revival and CoE. The games I've played with those people, while we wait for an MMORPG we want to play to be released, don't have guilds, nor do they have combat trackers.
You say guilds in general use combat trackers with no toxicity.
I say if Steven agreed with that, he would probably not be opposed to combat trackers.
And the only toxicity in that guild was specifically when the host/guild leader relied on the combat tracker during dungeon runs.
Who would have thought, a guild with literally no expectations or requirements for players to join, with absolutely no vetting at all of members, could have something go bad.
The issue there wasn't the combat tracker, the issue was the fact that this guild had no vetting of members. That is what most guilds rules are there to achieve - they set rules that they find easy to follow, and if you are unable to follow those rules you are probably not the kind of person that would fit in with the guild.
No rules or vetting means all types of gamers are in the guild, which is going to cause friction at some point, over some issue.
Interestingly, EQN was going to have combat trackers - they had the same attitude to them that EQ and EQ2 did.
This means anything you are saying is inherent to combat trackers would have been inherent to EQN in your mind.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I've seen criticism about Steven's personal past in mmos in a parser thread and if you don't think that is toxic you're brainwashed by combat trackers and are too far gone.
I've seen Steven admit that he was a toxic player in his past.
So you just admitted that you succeeded to find a group to do and complete dungeons with, even though the game has a combat tracker. Meaning, that the casual players will not be affected by the combat tracker.
I never claimed it was impossible to find a group to do dungeons with.
And, no, what I stated is that casual players were negatively affected by the combat tracker. That's why we stopped grouping with the twitch host/guild leader.
I wonder what you think being affected means.
And my argument gave you an example that invalidated your perception that guilds, groups or raids are toxic because of the dps meters. They can be toxic because of toxic people, not because of combat trackers.
No. You didn't invalidate anything.
Also, I don't agree that the leaders are toxic. It's relying on the combat trackers that make the leaders toxic.
It's like barring cell phones and TVs from the dining area during family dinner if what you want is to foster dialogue. What you're saying is well, that family won't talk to each other anyway even if they don't have cell phones or TV - they are just non-communicative people.
If you want to stay way from toxic groups, you should probably stay a way from twitch guilds xD
That is some really absurd logic that has you jumping from... one twitch guild that has a guild leader who uses combat trackers in a toxic manner to... you should probably stay away from twitch guilds in general.
I said that my experience is that groups and PUGs that rely on combat trackers are toxic.
You asked if I had any experience with guilds using combat trackers and I said I've had one experience with a guild that used combat trackers...and it followed the same behavior that I experienced in groups and PUGs that use combat trackers.
I didn't say anything like, "In my experience, twitch guilds tend to use combat trackers." I also didn't say that in my experience twitch guilds tend to be toxic.
I don't think I've made much commentary on guilds using combat trackers. When asked about guilds I said Steven tends to be in guilds and he agrees with my philosophy about combat trackers and toxicity.
Regarding guilds, Steven says: "It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."
If you want to debate about guilds who use combat trackers in general - you need to do that with Steven.
Prior to 2013, I refused to join guilds because guilds because most guilds have rules and regulations and mandatory time, etc - and I'm not interested in that bullshit. The twitch guild I joined for NWO had no rules or regulations.
The only soft rule was that you watched the twitch stream and so were able ask the host to let you into the guild. And the only toxicity in that guild was specifically when the host/guild leader relied on the combat tracker during dungeon runs. We did have one guy wipe out our shared bank at one point, but then we just assigned some officers to the manage the bank so it was a little less free-for-all than it was when we started, but it didn't change much.
After I burnt out on NWO, I was planning to be done with MMOs, but then I noticed that SOE had just announced EQNext a few weeks earlier and saw that my former boss at Activision was now Director Of Development and had given the pitch at PAX East.
From that, I'm now in a loose network of twitch groups and discord groups derived from EQNext/Landmark, Revival and CoE. The games I've played with those people, while we wait for an MMORPG we want to play to be released, don't have guilds, nor do they have combat trackers.
You say guilds in general use combat trackers with no toxicity.
I say if Steven agreed with that, he would probably not be opposed to combat trackers.
You finding a group that didn't rely on combat trackers, even though they exist, shows that casual people will not care about it and there for won't affect them.
Casual players will only be affected my combat trackers when they are playing with the wrong group of people, like semi hardcore or even hardcore people. Since those types of players uses combat trackers there will be a higher chance that the casual player will be affected by it. However, it's a 100% chance that every player will be affected by the combat tracker if they are grouped up with a toxic player -> never group with that person again -> no problem.
And my logic with the twitch guild is that I do watch twitch and can only image the toxicity from curtain twitch communities.
I ask you this random question again, do you prefer master loot or personal loot?
You finding a group that didn't rely on combat trackers, even though they exist, shows that casual people will not care about it and there for won't affect them.
I find it funny how people understand that they are better off finding a group of people that are somewhat likeminded to play an MMO with, yet somehow refuse to accept that a part of that likemindedness can be the use of combat trackers.
You finding a group that didn't rely on combat trackers, even though they exist, shows that casual people will not care about it and there for won't affect them.
I find it funny how people understand that they are better off finding a group of people that are somewhat likeminded to play an MMO with, yet somehow refuse to accept that a part of that likemindedness can be the use of combat trackers.
Yeah it's weird... play with people you like to play with and stop complaining about how other players play the game, it shouldn't be that difficult xD
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You finding a group that didn't rely on combat trackers, even though they exist, shows that casual people will not care about it and there for won't affect them.
That is patently absurd. It doesn't show that at all.
Players actually do care when they are bullied due to a perceived under-performance based on combat tracker stats, which happens way to often.
In that interview with Steven, when Steven says that he's opposed to DPS meters because "it can create a toxic dynamic between essentially excluding players from raids and/or content"... TimThe Tatman yells, "True!"
He goes on to say, "I was bottom of my DPS meter in Classic WoW all the time and all they did was yell at me, so...thank you for that."
So, your unfounded assertions that people will not care are utterly ludicrous and demonstrably false.
Not that it matters anyway because Steven is convinced they cause too much toxicity to be included in the game.
Casual players will only be affected my combat trackers when they are playing with the wrong group of people, like semi hardcore or even hardcore people.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
You finding a group that didn't rely on combat trackers, even though they exist, shows that casual people will not care about it and there for won't affect them.
That is patently absurd. It doesn't show that at all.
Players actually do care when they are bullied due to a perceived under-performance based on combat tracker stats, which happens way to often.
In that interview with Steven, when Steven says that he's opposed to DPS meters because "it can create a toxic dynamic between essentially excluding players from raids and/or content"... TimThe Tatman yells, "True!"
He goes on to say, "I was bottom of my DPS meter in Classic WoW all the time and all they did was yell at me, so...thank you for that."
So, your unfounded assertions that people will not care are utterly ludicrous and demonstrably false.
Not that it matters anyway because Steven is convinced they cause too much toxicity to be included in the game.
Casual players will only be affected my combat trackers when they are playing with the wrong group of people, like semi hardcore or even hardcore people.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
Is it the combat tracker that bullies people or is it toxic players?
A combat tracker IS NOT toxic and do not have any emotions, it's people that is the problem. If you find yourself in a toxic group that may "bully" you because you are at the bottom of the dps meter, then leave the freaking group! Do not blame the dps meter, blame the toxic players.
A combat tracker is just simply a tool for raiders (hardcore or not), not a weapon to "exclude" people from raids or end game content so stop acting like it does.
And I ask you again, do you prefer master loot or personal loot?
Do not blame the dps meter, blame the toxic players.
Or, blame the non-performance oriented player that thought it would be a good idea to group up with performance oriented players.
I've been booted from a group in the past for not RP'ing. It was my fault for not understanding the type of player that was in the group.
To me, these two situations are the same. Someone joined a group of players that were not the same as them, and were then removed from the group for not being the type of player the group wanted.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A combat tracker IS NOT toxic and do not have any emotions, it's people that is the problem. If you find yourself in a toxic group that may "bully" you because you are at the bottom of the dps meter, then leave the freaking group! Do not blame the dps meter, blame the toxic players.
Hmmn. In the post you were replying to, I don't think I made the claim that combat trackers are toxic.
I suppose I could have used imprecise wording in a previous post but, I don't see in a search on this page where I stated that combat trackers are toxic.
Combat trackers cause group leaders to behave in a toxic manner. That claim is a generalization; not an absolute. I do not agree with you that the group leaders were toxic players before relying on combat trackers.
You keep asserting that I should blame the players; not the DPS meter; but I continue to blame reliance on the DPS meter causing the toxic behavior.
A combat tracker is just simply a tool for raiders (hardcore or not), not a weapon to "exclude" people from raids or end game content so stop acting like it does.
Steven doesn't agree with you. Nor do I. Nor do many other people. But... the person who counts is Steven.
Combat trackers are just tools. There are times when certain tools get banned due to the negative manner in which people behave when they rely on the tools.
And I ask you again, do you prefer master loot or personal loot?
I don't really care about loot rights. I'm a communist.
What Steven thinks about combat trackers means nothing if the community disagrees with him. I am a perfect case in point for that - I will have one, and I will use it.
Even with Steven saying they will take action on accounts that are seen to be using them, I am still confident enough to state outright that I will have one and that I will use it.
A combat tracker IS NOT toxic and do not have any emotions, it's people that is the problem. If you find yourself in a toxic group that may "bully" you because you are at the bottom of the dps meter, then leave the freaking group! Do not blame the dps meter, blame the toxic players.
Hmmn. In the post you were replying to, I don't think I made the claim that combat trackers are toxic.
I suppose I could have used imprecise wording in a previous post but, I don't see in a search on this page where I stated that combat trackers are toxic.
Combat trackers cause group leaders to behave in a toxic manner. That claim is a generalization; not an absolute. I do not agree with you that the group leaders were toxic players before relying on combat trackers.
You keep asserting that I should blame the players; not the DPS meter; but I continue to blame reliance on the DPS meter causing the toxic behavior.
A combat tracker is just simply a tool for raiders (hardcore or not), not a weapon to "exclude" people from raids or end game content so stop acting like it does.
Steven doesn't agree with you. Nor do I. Nor do many other people. But... the person who counts is Steven.
Combat trackers are just tools. There are times when certain tools get banned due to the negative manner in which people behave when they rely on the tools.
And I ask you again, do you prefer master loot or personal loot?
I don't really care about loot rights. I'm a communist.
the reply was my first sentence, then I made a general reply to your philosophy that dps meters are bad (toxic) for the general community.
your generalization for group leaders just do not match my experience in any mmo. For the past (soon) two years I have played wow classic everyday, and my general experience is that group leaders are NOT toxic. And even before that when I played ESO I didn´t find group leaders to be toxic because of the dps meters. Yes, they do exist and I have encountered them, but I do not think much about them since I will never never group with them again. And you can always start your own group/guild were you can make the rules to fit your playstyle
Sorry but I don´t really follow what you mean with "but I continue to blame reliance on the DPS meter causing the toxic behavior.", maybe I´m reading it wrong xD
Comments
Casual players won't really care about the combat tracker, and if you do then you have a mind set of a more hardcore player rather than a casual player.
My guild is a living example of a guild that is casual and uses combat trackers for fun, we do not care about how much you parse or how good you are. We know we are casual player and that is why we do not have any special requirements when it comes to dps or hps.
So no, casual players will still be casual players. But yes, some casual players may find them self wanting more, wanting more dps, wanting to do better, and they will maybe some day be the best doser in a hardcore guild. But who knows?
Someone does not do enough damage -people wont give them a chance to join raids-they are unable to get better gear-unable to do enough dmg-people wont give them a chance to join raids. and so on, it just goes in a circle
Yeah, this would suck, but it also isn't an issue.
Streamers are not exactly a great source of accurate information or good opinions in regards to MMO's. The point of their existence is profit, views, not accuracy of information.
The only way the above could ever be considered an issue is in the realm of pick up raids, and the only game that has ever existed where pick up raids are a thing people expect is WoW - which has automated systems to form them for players at the bottom end.
In every other game, if you want to raid, you raid with your guild. If you are raiding with your guild and you are not up to standard, your guild assists you in getting there, and a combat tracker is the singular key tool in allowing that to happen.
This game is kinda being designed for them to be kinda useless anyway. DPS meters will be useless because most of the classes will have some form of versatility applied to them. So it will be very common for classes to do lower damage in return for other forms of support, healing, or abilities similar to that. Like there might be a class that does the most DPS in the game and how he does it is by giving everyone in an entire raid a 10% dps buff. The DPS meters will see him as doing absolutely nothing though.
Also just flat out doesn't keep track of healing or support which I said above, but that's very important for a game designed in the older MMO style. Classes in Everquest aren't actual classes like they are in other MMO's. You pick them similar to how ashes is going to, but a lot of the combinations have the ability to add a lot of ridiculous utility to your party. So when you spec into damage in everquest you are often doing 2 classes worth of direct damage. If you spec into 2 healing classes you will be doing 2 classes worth of healing.
That kind of distinction does not exist for DPS meters. So they won't be possible to use effectively in a game like this.
U.S. East
combat trackers can show you much more than just dps meters. Buff uptimes, CC/interrupts done, dispells, healing, overhealing, damage taken, etc.
A bunch of us stopped grouping with the guild leader and I was able to devise strategies for us to beat the end-game dungeons without the guild leader and without combat trackers.
Steven is typically a guild leader in the MMORPGs he's played and he's not supporting combat trackers in Ashes because he feels there's to much danger of them causing toxicity.
You giving me some examples has not convinced me those are not exceptions to the general circumstances.
Steven sharing my philosophy (as do many others) convinces me that my perspective is valid.
If the game is designed to implement and support combat trackers, the game devs will design content that allow combat trackers to be more useful and meaningful. Which can be great group combat design in general but is is poor RPG design specifically.
Again, I think that is precisely my point.
We should be able to gift other players gear that can do sufficient damage.
So you just admitted that you succeeded to find a group to do and complete dungeons with, even though the game has a combat tracker. Meaning, that the casual players will not be affected by the combat tracker.
And my argument gave you an example that invalidated your perception that guilds, groups or raids are toxic because of the dps meters. They can be toxic because of toxic people, not because of combat trackers.
If you want to stay way from toxic groups, you should probably stay a way from twitch guilds xD
I've yet to see a game with group content that needs strategy rather than just good players. And never once seen group content that needs a combat tracker.
You may as well be saying that you are successfully able to participate in crafting content without a combat tracker here, as you are literally talking about parts of the game where they are not needed.
Btw, do you prefer master loot or personal loot in PvE?
I've seen criticism about Steven's personal past in mmos in a parser thread and if you don't think that is toxic you're brainwashed by combat trackers and are too far gone.
Stevens past has been criticized on a combat tracker thread - but that was in relation to his toxic behavior in other games despite not using a combat tracker and thus how he knows for a fact that combat trackers are not needed for massive amounts of toxicity to exist.
How are you blaming discussion on combat trackers for that, rather than blaming Steven for his toxic behavior in the past?
I mean, one of those two things is clearly to blame, but you have your finger pointed at the wrong one.
And, no, what I stated is that casual players were negatively affected by the combat tracker. That's why we stopped grouping with the twitch host/guild leader.
I wonder what you think being affected means.
No. You didn't invalidate anything.
Also, I don't agree that the leaders are toxic. It's relying on the combat trackers that make the leaders toxic.
It's like barring cell phones and TVs from the dining area during family dinner if what you want is to foster dialogue. What you're saying is well, that family won't talk to each other anyway even if they don't have cell phones or TV - they are just non-communicative people.
That is some really absurd logic that has you jumping from... one twitch guild that has a guild leader who uses combat trackers in a toxic manner to... you should probably stay away from twitch guilds in general.
I said that my experience is that groups and PUGs that rely on combat trackers are toxic.
You asked if I had any experience with guilds using combat trackers and I said I've had one experience with a guild that used combat trackers...and it followed the same behavior that I experienced in groups and PUGs that use combat trackers.
I didn't say anything like, "In my experience, twitch guilds tend to use combat trackers." I also didn't say that in my experience twitch guilds tend to be toxic.
I don't think I've made much commentary on guilds using combat trackers. When asked about guilds I said Steven tends to be in guilds and he agrees with my philosophy about combat trackers and toxicity.
Regarding guilds, Steven says:
"It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."
If you want to debate about guilds who use combat trackers in general - you need to do that with Steven.
Prior to 2013, I refused to join guilds because guilds because most guilds have rules and regulations and mandatory time, etc - and I'm not interested in that bullshit. The twitch guild I joined for NWO had no rules or regulations.
The only soft rule was that you watched the twitch stream and so were able ask the host to let you into the guild. And the only toxicity in that guild was specifically when the host/guild leader relied on the combat tracker during dungeon runs. We did have one guy wipe out our shared bank at one point, but then we just assigned some officers to the manage the bank so it was a little less free-for-all than it was when we started, but it didn't change much.
After I burnt out on NWO, I was planning to be done with MMOs, but then I noticed that SOE had just announced EQNext a few weeks earlier and saw that my former boss at Activision was now Director Of Development and had given the pitch at PAX East.
From that, I'm now in a loose network of twitch groups and discord groups derived from EQNext/Landmark, Revival and CoE. The games I've played with those people, while we wait for an MMORPG we want to play to be released, don't have guilds, nor do they have combat trackers.
You say guilds in general use combat trackers with no toxicity.
I say if Steven agreed with that, he would probably not be opposed to combat trackers.
The issue there wasn't the combat tracker, the issue was the fact that this guild had no vetting of members. That is what most guilds rules are there to achieve - they set rules that they find easy to follow, and if you are unable to follow those rules you are probably not the kind of person that would fit in with the guild.
No rules or vetting means all types of gamers are in the guild, which is going to cause friction at some point, over some issue.
Interestingly, EQN was going to have combat trackers - they had the same attitude to them that EQ and EQ2 did.
This means anything you are saying is inherent to combat trackers would have been inherent to EQN in your mind.
You finding a group that didn't rely on combat trackers, even though they exist, shows that casual people will not care about it and there for won't affect them.
Casual players will only be affected my combat trackers when they are playing with the wrong group of people, like semi hardcore or even hardcore people. Since those types of players uses combat trackers there will be a higher chance that the casual player will be affected by it. However, it's a 100% chance that every player will be affected by the combat tracker if they are grouped up with a toxic player -> never group with that person again -> no problem.
And my logic with the twitch guild is that I do watch twitch and can only image the toxicity from curtain twitch communities.
I ask you this random question again, do you prefer master loot or personal loot?
Yeah it's weird... play with people you like to play with and stop complaining about how other players play the game, it shouldn't be that difficult xD
Players actually do care when they are bullied due to a perceived under-performance based on combat tracker stats, which happens way to often.
In that interview with Steven, when Steven says that he's opposed to DPS meters because "it can create a toxic dynamic between essentially excluding players from raids and/or content"... TimThe Tatman yells, "True!"
He goes on to say, "I was bottom of my DPS meter in Classic WoW all the time and all they did was yell at me, so...thank you for that."
So, your unfounded assertions that people will not care are utterly ludicrous and demonstrably false.
Not that it matters anyway because Steven is convinced they cause too much toxicity to be included in the game.
Casual players will not be affected at all because Ashes will not have combat trackers.
Combat trackers are very common and openly used in that game, as will be the case in Ashes.
Is it the combat tracker that bullies people or is it toxic players?
A combat tracker IS NOT toxic and do not have any emotions, it's people that is the problem. If you find yourself in a toxic group that may "bully" you because you are at the bottom of the dps meter, then leave the freaking group! Do not blame the dps meter, blame the toxic players.
A combat tracker is just simply a tool for raiders (hardcore or not), not a weapon to "exclude" people from raids or end game content so stop acting like it does.
And I ask you again, do you prefer master loot or personal loot?
I've been booted from a group in the past for not RP'ing. It was my fault for not understanding the type of player that was in the group.
To me, these two situations are the same. Someone joined a group of players that were not the same as them, and were then removed from the group for not being the type of player the group wanted.
I suppose I could have used imprecise wording in a previous post but, I don't see in a search on this page where I stated that combat trackers are toxic.
Combat trackers cause group leaders to behave in a toxic manner. That claim is a generalization; not an absolute. I do not agree with you that the group leaders were toxic players before relying on combat trackers.
You keep asserting that I should blame the players; not the DPS meter; but I continue to blame reliance on the DPS meter causing the toxic behavior.
Steven doesn't agree with you. Nor do I. Nor do many other people. But... the person who counts is Steven.
Combat trackers are just tools. There are times when certain tools get banned due to the negative manner in which people behave when they rely on the tools.
I don't really care about loot rights. I'm a communist.
The people that count are the community.
What Steven thinks about combat trackers means nothing if the community disagrees with him. I am a perfect case in point for that - I will have one, and I will use it.
Even with Steven saying they will take action on accounts that are seen to be using them, I am still confident enough to state outright that I will have one and that I will use it.
the reply was my first sentence, then I made a general reply to your philosophy that dps meters are bad (toxic) for the general community.
your generalization for group leaders just do not match my experience in any mmo. For the past (soon) two years I have played wow classic everyday, and my general experience is that group leaders are NOT toxic. And even before that when I played ESO I didn´t find group leaders to be toxic because of the dps meters. Yes, they do exist and I have encountered them, but I do not think much about them since I will never never group with them again. And you can always start your own group/guild were you can make the rules to fit your playstyle
Sorry but I don´t really follow what you mean with "but I continue to blame reliance on the DPS meter causing the toxic behavior.", maybe I´m reading it wrong xD
So you care about dps meters but not the toxic environment that can come from Master looting?
In my experience there a much more guild drama around ninja looting and bad loot councils than drama around the dps meters.
Selective outrage...