Well, I’m hoping the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 3 isn’t linear. In which case we’re just talking about a relatively small slope difference between one steep curve to another. If time is the only difference (I don’t think it is, but let’s go with that) the delta between 50% and 30% is not going to be as consequential as you think. Someone in Tier 3 would crush someone in sub-Tier 1.
And again if time is the only difference (and again I’d argue it isn’t) it’s entirely reasonable that a player in Tier 3 that spent 100 hours in the game would wipe the floor with someone in sun-Tier I who has spent 10 hours in the game.
I don’t think any casual player would look twice at that…
If this were in court, I’d ask who the aggrieved party is in this 17 page thread as this whole discussion seems like a proxy concern. Am I off?
Since you mentioned GW2, that was one of my favorite things about it's PvP
That everyone got level capped and the same gear, making it only dependent on player skill. I actually really appreciated that, because I could not play for a bit then go to PvP island and still wreck face. Unlike something like WoW where the difference would be "insurmountable" because my gear was 2 seasons ago.
But I do understand that does remove the gear chase from the equation which is kind of part of the whole MMO genre.... And ashes won't have the hard line between the PvP and PvE the way GW2 did either so that isn't even possible in ashes ( unless they did that for arena fights which could be cool)
I feel like there could be a middle ground somewhere. Sure the gear can give you a stat advantage, but it shouldn't just make you unbeatable to someone with lesser gear... There no fun in that.
And honestly if you win just because you have more free time, I could definitely argue that starts to fall under pay to win at a point.
I sincerely hope Intrepid ignores this thread and makes the game how they plan to make it..
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
We just have more trust in the Ashes devs and what has been shared of the dev design than you do.
After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here.
It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you.
"This isn't the way to solve the problem."
"This isn't the actual problem to begin with."
Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
I understand what you're saying Vman, conceptually. I'm not reading 17 pages to see if I agree with everything you've said point by point, I probably don't. But you're right in that the more pvp focused a game is, the more it needs to moderate how big power gaps are.
That doesn't mean the power gaps need to be tiny necessarily. But relative to other mmos that don't have nearly the same focus on pvp, the power gaps need to be tighter, to some extent. This is common sense.
I've heard the "50% of character power will come from gear" quote. I don't know exactly what that means, like how exactly that will affect power gaps. But I trust Steven realizes that if he creates a system where new, casual players have to spend months before they can even put a dent in a hardcore players armor, he's created a game that will eventually wither away and die.
Interview from July 19, 2020 states gear will account for ~40-50% of your overall power. Which to me means the other 50-60% would be split between class/archetype/player skill in some ratio or another. Would be nice if player skill held a higher determining factor if that is indeed how it ends up being.
40% gear
25% player skill
20% class/archetype
10% character stats
5% misc/luck/etc or whatever
One thing I would love for them to implement in the game would be for players to get X amount of 'stat points' (like in Diablo 2) to spend how they want, instead of being a static increase like in WoW. Would need a way to prevent strength/dex glitching for gear like D2, imo.
Well, I’m hoping the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 3 isn’t linear. In which case we’re just talking about a relatively small slope difference between one steep curve to another. If time is the only difference (I don’t think it is, but let’s go with that) the delta between 50% and 30% is not going to be as consequential as you think. Someone in Tier 3 would crush someone in sub-Tier 1.
And again if time is the only difference (and again I’d argue it isn’t) it’s entirely reasonable that a player in Tier 3 that spent 100 hours in the game would wipe the floor with someone in sun-Tier I who has spent 10 hours in the game.
I don’t think any casual player would look twice at that…
If this were in court, I’d ask who the aggrieved party is in this 17 page thread as this whole discussion seems like a proxy concern. Am I off?
I could (arrogantly) argue that the premise is sound but the argument isn't being made correctly/strongly enough, and I don't care enough to jump in on the OP's side again, any more than anyone else seems inclined to.
There is definitely a potential for an 'aggrieved party' here, if you run some basic numbers (not the ones I did before, separate ones based on the time investment thing), someone would just need to properly define what that is, and THEN show that such a situation would exist in Ashes, even hypothetically.
Themepark games DO have this sort of problem. The player who can walk through the story faster gets a large gear advantage, because it's intended to bring them up to the bottom of 'raiding tier' or the 'lowest rung of endgame PvP', depending on the game.
So a casual player wandering around in an Open World game who doesn't have time to play through the 20-30 hours of story quests and such and still do what they logged into the game to actually enjoy, will get stomped by any relatively skill-less but 'time endowed' player who just 'had more time to go through the storyline and get handed a pile of gear'.
We know crafted items will be powerful. We know group content will provide access to top gear and materiel. Both are accomplished by friends and/or guilds. That accelerates gear progression and thus power.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here.
It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you.
"This isn't the way to solve the problem."
"This isn't the actual problem to begin with."
Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO.
Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem.
There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above.
We know crafted items will be powerful. We know group content will provide access to top gear and materiel. Both are accomplished by friends and/or guilds. That accelerates gear progression and thus power.
I was referring to the Themepark problem. In Themepark games, the crafting system for low level gear is entirely there FOR casual players to waste their time on. I hate it, it's literally degrading (both the game and the game's players).
It's just another symptom of something. I don't think Themeparks are bad, I think Themeparks are EASY and therefore below-average designers will target them first when trying to build games, which results in a proliferation of poor Themeparks.
After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here.
It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you.
"This isn't the way to solve the problem."
"This isn't the actual problem to begin with."
Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO.
Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem.
There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above.
~sighs~
Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish.
I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere.
If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already.
You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so...
And honestly if you win just because you have more free time, I could definitely argue that starts to fall under pay to win at a point.
This isn't pay to win (edit: like 100%, absolutely, irrefutably NOT p2w).
It's called play to win.
Time=money
If I win the lottery and don't have to work, and clean my house, or cut my lawn, or do anything else I can pay other people to do. Then I would have way more free time to play and I could be 'better' than you because I have more free time than you... Sounds dangerously close to pay to win to me...
To be clear though, I didn't say there shouldn't be a difference between the people that play 10 hours a week vs the 40hr a week group. I was just saying it shouldn't be an absolute insurmountable difference between them. I was just saying I would rather have actual skill mean more than free time spent in the game. So I'd like to see people who are skilled to be able to beat people even if they have a couple of tiers higher gear. (Granted, hopefully the person that plays more is more skilled... But that's not always the case. )
Have the equalized power in arenas, but definitely not in the open world. What's the point of building up your character in an rpg if it's not stronger than other characters that have not been built up as much.
Let hardcore players be stronger than casuals because they're hardcore.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here.
It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you.
"This isn't the way to solve the problem."
"This isn't the actual problem to begin with."
Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO.
Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem.
There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above.
~sighs~
Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish.
I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere.
If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already.
You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so...
Go reread the numbers.
Or you could break down the item you no longer need into raw materials and use those to repair your now better item. Or maybe you’ll give it to the alt of a guild mate in your hardcore guild. You’re assuming how the system works. We don’t know yet, so your solution might not be a solution at all.
I understand that the corruption system will help protect casuals to some extent. However, there might still be situations where a casual guild would try to farm somewhere and a hardcore guild could just come and stomp them out because their gear power level is insurmountable. And don’t get me started on caravans.
A lot of people have brought up the idea of casuals needing to rely on their hardcore friends for help. But that’s bogus for two reasons:
1. It sucks to be relegated to babysitter gameplay… no one wants to feel like they need a babysitter to play the game.
2. Hardcore players most often play with other hardcore players because that is the best and most optimal way to play hardcore… you won’t have casuals holding you back. Especially in a game that relies on open world PvP as much as AoC.
After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here.
It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you.
"This isn't the way to solve the problem."
"This isn't the actual problem to begin with."
Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO.
Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem.
There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above.
~sighs~
Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish.
I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere.
If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already.
You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so...
Go reread the numbers.
Or you could break down the item you no longer need into raw materials and use those to repair your now better item. Or maybe you’ll give it to the alt of a guild mate in your hardcore guild. You’re assuming how the system works. We don’t know yet, so your solution might not be a solution at all.
I understand that the corruption system will help protect casuals to some extent. However, there might still be situations where a casual guild would try to farm somewhere and a hardcore guild could just come and stomp them out because their gear power level is insurmountable. And don’t get me started on caravans.
A lot of people have brought up the idea of casuals needing to rely on their hardcore friends for help. But that’s bogus for two reasons:
1. It sucks to be relegated to babysitter gameplay… no one wants to feel like they need a babysitter to play the game.
2. Hardcore players most often play with other hardcore players because that is the best and most optimal way to play hardcore… you won’t have casuals holding you back. Especially in a game that relies on open world PvP as much as AoC.
Yeah that's the answer type I was expecting.
But I posit to you a quandary.
On page 13 of this thread at the top you ask me about Enchanting, wondering why I believe Intrepid would do something a specific way that would fix the problem.
Then a little later you outright ask 'do we know that they have the skills to design like this'?
But technically they wouldn't need the skill, right? In all arrogance, if they were not skilled, all they would need to do is listen to me. To do otherwise would be to explicitly choose to do it less skilfully because they thought it would be better.
But then, if they won't even listen to me when I'm giving 'ways to solve it within their own systems that I figure they are already going to leverage'... what's the point of the thread? Why would they care what you have to say?
If I win the lottery and don't have to work, and clean my house, or cut my lawn, or do anything else I can pay other people to do. Then I would have way more free time to play and I could be 'better' than you because I have more free time than you... Sounds dangerously close to pay to win to me...
No.
P2W means I spend money in addition to the sub to gain items or buffs that make me more powerful than other players.
If we both pay the same gym membership fee to the same gym and I go everyday and you go once a month, I’m going to be stronger than you. That’s not pay to win.
If I win the lottery and don't have to work, and clean my house, or cut my lawn, or do anything else I can pay other people to do. Then I would have way more free time to play and I could be 'better' than you because I have more free time than you... Sounds dangerously close to pay to win to me...
No.
P2W means I spend money in addition to the sub to gain items or buffs that make me more powerful than other players.
If we both pay the same gym membership fee to the same gym and I go everyday and you go once a month, I’m going to be stronger than you. That’s not pay to win.
This is a little complicated in some people's perspectives for a related reason so, I'll ask a point for my own edification actually, both to you and @SirChancelot .
In a game with no sub, with the capacity to spend $20 (and no more) across 4 different $5 premium 'buffs' to your character (let's assume nothing that feeds DIRECTLY into combat for simplicity), is spending the $5-10-15-20 Pay To Win?
I have a problem with games where Bob can spend $800 a month to Sue's $8 and get 100x the chances or rewards, but no problem with games where Bob can spend $20 and Sue can choose to spend $0 and Bob be generally superior to Sue.
Playtime is the same, to me.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Have the equalized power in arenas, but definitely not in the open world. What's the point of building up your character in an rpg if it's not stronger than other characters that have not been built up as much.
Let hardcore players be stronger than casuals because they're hardcore.
Once again, never asked for equalized gear.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here.
It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you.
"This isn't the way to solve the problem."
"This isn't the actual problem to begin with."
Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO.
Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem.
There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above.
~sighs~
Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish.
I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere.
If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already.
You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so...
Go reread the numbers.
Or you could break down the item you no longer need into raw materials and use those to repair your now better item. Or maybe you’ll give it to the alt of a guild mate in your hardcore guild. You’re assuming how the system works. We don’t know yet, so your solution might not be a solution at all.
I understand that the corruption system will help protect casuals to some extent. However, there might still be situations where a casual guild would try to farm somewhere and a hardcore guild could just come and stomp them out because their gear power level is insurmountable. And don’t get me started on caravans.
A lot of people have brought up the idea of casuals needing to rely on their hardcore friends for help. But that’s bogus for two reasons:
1. It sucks to be relegated to babysitter gameplay… no one wants to feel like they need a babysitter to play the game.
2. Hardcore players most often play with other hardcore players because that is the best and most optimal way to play hardcore… you won’t have casuals holding you back. Especially in a game that relies on open world PvP as much as AoC.
Yeah that's the answer type I was expecting.
But I posit to you a quandary.
On page 13 of this thread at the top you ask me about Enchanting, wondering why I believe Intrepid would do something a specific way that would fix the problem.
Then a little later you outright ask 'do we know that they have the skills to design like this'?
But technically they wouldn't need the skill, right? In all arrogance, if they were not skilled, all they would need to do is listen to me. To do otherwise would be to explicitly choose to do it less skilfully because they thought it would be better.
But then, if they won't even listen to me when I'm giving 'ways to solve it within their own systems that I figure they are already going to leverage'... what's the point of the thread? Why would they care what you have to say?
I’m giving the simplest way to solve within their system as well… I don’t understand your point. What I’m saying about your suggestion of passing down the gear to casuals is perfectly valid. Breaking down the item could be just as good of an option considering how AoC’s crafting and durability will work.
You still didn’t answer the situation where a casual guild might be kicked out by a hardcore guild because gear power differences are insurmountable and you also didn’t address caravans. Once again, I think many of you underestimate just how much hardcore players will play with other hardcore players in a game like AoC.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I win the lottery and don't have to work, and clean my house, or cut my lawn, or do anything else I can pay other people to do. Then I would have way more free time to play and I could be 'better' than you because I have more free time than you... Sounds dangerously close to pay to win to me...
No.
P2W means I spend money in addition to the sub to gain items or buffs that make me more powerful than other players.
If we both pay the same gym membership fee to the same gym and I go everyday and you go once a month, I’m going to be stronger than you. That’s not pay to win.
But this isn’t real life. This is a game. And the amount of resources (money or time) that you have in real life shouldn’t translate into insurmountable advantages.
You're not going to reread the numbers, you're not going to demonstrate any faith in Intrepid, you're not going to accept that not all hardcore players are the same, and you haven't even defined what that is even after I for some reason went to actually get you the numbers you needed to do it with.
But you WILL repeat multiple times about the equalized gear thing. My model for this type of engagement indicates that I should avoid it, for my own sake, so, my options are to finally ignore you, or attempt a 'hostile takeover' of this thread while arguing your point for you just so that it's at least halfway productive, but then it would end because I can't drum up enough bad-faith situations to justify it.
So, sure. Casual Guild running a Caravan will lose to a Hardcore Guild.
In my model, a Casual Guild of Intermittent Players will DEFINITELY get stomped by players who play this game as their fulltime job. The question changes, then.
When did this Casual Guild of Intermittent Players find time to pack up a whole CARAVAN?
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Again, it depends on whether youare talking about Hardcore Challenge or Hardcore Time.
I am a Casual Challenge/HardcoreTime player. My community has some Hardcore Challenge players.
And we play together because we enjoy playing a variety of games together - including D&D.
Also - a lot of our Community is from Landmark.
And in Landmark we worked together to Craft stuff, to share techniques and to teach techniques in video tutorials.
Casual Challenge/Hardcore Time players will have the opportunity to Craft competitive gear for friends who ony have Casual Time. Same for Hardcore Challenge players who are part of a "casual" guild that doesn't care about being the most efficient as possible - especially when it comes to being the most efficient with time.
But, also - Ashes is focused on large battles; not 1v1 PvP. (It's also focused on objective-based PvP)
So, this is not about 1v1 gear disparity or even guild v guild gear disparity.
It's going to be based on Caravan raids and Sieges.
And those are going to be a chaotic mix of casuals and hardcores.
Where what matters is achieving the objective(s); not the casual v hardcore gear disparity.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You're not going to reread the numbers, you're not going to demonstrate any faith in Intrepid, you're not going to accept that not all hardcore players are the same, and you haven't even defined what that is even after I for some reason went to actually get you the numbers you needed to do it with.
But you WILL repeat multiple times about the equalized gear thing. My model for this type of engagement indicates that I should avoid it, for my own sake, so, my options are to finally ignore you, or attempt a 'hostile takeover' of this thread while arguing your point for you just so that it's at least halfway productive, but then it would end because I can't drum up enough bad-faith situations to justify it.
So, sure. Casual Guild running a Caravan will lose to a Hardcore Guild.
In my model, a Casual Guild of Intermittent Players will DEFINITELY get stomped by players who play this game as their fulltime job. The question changes, then.
When did this Casual Guild of Intermittent Players find time to pack up a whole CARAVAN?
The majority of hardcore players are going to play with other hardcore players. That’s just how it works. Hardcore players like to play with other hardcore players. I don’t know what MMOs you’ve played where that’s not true, but that’s how it works most of the time. The numbers that you gave were awesome, but that still doesn’t change a simple fact: if hardcore players can gain an insurmountable gear advantage, many players will have a bad time. It’s not about bad faith situations. It’s about the simple fact stated above.
I only repeat the stuff about equalized gear because I’m being accused of it over and over again. Imagine how I feel…
Hahahaha what? What does being casual have ANYTHING to do with being able to pack a caravan?? I’m certain that an entire guild of casuals can farm enough for a caravan. What?
This is a little complicated in some people's perspectives for a related reason so, I'll ask a point for my own edification actually, both to you and @SirChancelot .
In a game with no sub, with the capacity to spend $20 (and no more) across 4 different $5 premium 'buffs' to your character (let's assume nothing that feeds DIRECTLY into combat for simplicity), is spending the $5-10-15-20 Pay To Win?
I have a problem with games where Bob can spend $800 a month to Sue's $8 and get 100x the chances or rewards, but no problem with games where Bob can spend $20 and Sue can choose to spend $0 and Bob be generally superior to Sue.
Playtime is the same, to me.
Heh - I’ll always whiteboard with you @Azherae - you know that. 🤪
I’m really not a fan of the whole f2p w/VIP sub thing that Neverwinter, ESO, and a few others do. As a player I’d couch those as subbed games with a limited F2P model (instead of players with monthly subs as P2W).
So, that said - in a true F2P model w/a cash shop - if I pay to buff xp gain, power, or any other advantage that allows me to beat another player or progress forward that’s P2W.
In your example, it could be those $5 are just cosmetic. Cosmetics aren’t P2W.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you want pure skill go play tekken or dota or whatever.
Mind you... casuals will never be better in mmo pvp even if you give them a max out char with top items. Know why? Lack of experience.
I never said that I want pure skill… I never said that I want equalized gear.
Yes, most casuals will lose to a hardcore player if it’s just skill based. But there are casuals who are good at the game who could stand a chance to hardcore players and there are hardcore players who are trash at the game who would lose to a casual… I’m just saying that a good casual player should stand a chance and gear shouldn’t be an insurmountable barrier. This concept cannot be too difficult, right?
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And again if time is the only difference (and again I’d argue it isn’t) it’s entirely reasonable that a player in Tier 3 that spent 100 hours in the game would wipe the floor with someone in sun-Tier I who has spent 10 hours in the game.
I don’t think any casual player would look twice at that…
If this were in court, I’d ask who the aggrieved party is in this 17 page thread as this whole discussion seems like a proxy concern. Am I off?
That everyone got level capped and the same gear, making it only dependent on player skill. I actually really appreciated that, because I could not play for a bit then go to PvP island and still wreck face. Unlike something like WoW where the difference would be "insurmountable" because my gear was 2 seasons ago.
But I do understand that does remove the gear chase from the equation which is kind of part of the whole MMO genre.... And ashes won't have the hard line between the PvP and PvE the way GW2 did either so that isn't even possible in ashes ( unless they did that for arena fights which could be cool)
I feel like there could be a middle ground somewhere. Sure the gear can give you a stat advantage, but it shouldn't just make you unbeatable to someone with lesser gear... There no fun in that.
And honestly if you win just because you have more free time, I could definitely argue that starts to fall under pay to win at a point.
This isn't pay to win (edit: like 100%, absolutely, irrefutably NOT p2w).
It's called play to win.
That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here.
It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you.
"This isn't the way to solve the problem."
"This isn't the actual problem to begin with."
Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
That doesn't mean the power gaps need to be tiny necessarily. But relative to other mmos that don't have nearly the same focus on pvp, the power gaps need to be tighter, to some extent. This is common sense.
I've heard the "50% of character power will come from gear" quote. I don't know exactly what that means, like how exactly that will affect power gaps. But I trust Steven realizes that if he creates a system where new, casual players have to spend months before they can even put a dent in a hardcore players armor, he's created a game that will eventually wither away and die.
40% gear
25% player skill
20% class/archetype
10% character stats
5% misc/luck/etc or whatever
One thing I would love for them to implement in the game would be for players to get X amount of 'stat points' (like in Diablo 2) to spend how they want, instead of being a static increase like in WoW. Would need a way to prevent strength/dex glitching for gear like D2, imo.
I could (arrogantly) argue that the premise is sound but the argument isn't being made correctly/strongly enough, and I don't care enough to jump in on the OP's side again, any more than anyone else seems inclined to.
There is definitely a potential for an 'aggrieved party' here, if you run some basic numbers (not the ones I did before, separate ones based on the time investment thing), someone would just need to properly define what that is, and THEN show that such a situation would exist in Ashes, even hypothetically.
Themepark games DO have this sort of problem. The player who can walk through the story faster gets a large gear advantage, because it's intended to bring them up to the bottom of 'raiding tier' or the 'lowest rung of endgame PvP', depending on the game.
So a casual player wandering around in an Open World game who doesn't have time to play through the 20-30 hours of story quests and such and still do what they logged into the game to actually enjoy, will get stomped by any relatively skill-less but 'time endowed' player who just 'had more time to go through the storyline and get handed a pile of gear'.
Guilds don't solve this, friends don't solve this.
But it's just another symptom of the Themepark Virus (I don't hate these as much as this might sound), and has nothing to do with Ashes, still.
We know crafted items will be powerful. We know group content will provide access to top gear and materiel. Both are accomplished by friends and/or guilds. That accelerates gear progression and thus power.
Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO.
Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem.
There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above.
I was referring to the Themepark problem. In Themepark games, the crafting system for low level gear is entirely there FOR casual players to waste their time on. I hate it, it's literally degrading (both the game and the game's players).
It's just another symptom of something. I don't think Themeparks are bad, I think Themeparks are EASY and therefore below-average designers will target them first when trying to build games, which results in a proliferation of poor Themeparks.
~sighs~
Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish.
I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere.
If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already.
You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so...
Go reread the numbers.
Time=money
If I win the lottery and don't have to work, and clean my house, or cut my lawn, or do anything else I can pay other people to do. Then I would have way more free time to play and I could be 'better' than you because I have more free time than you... Sounds dangerously close to pay to win to me...
To be clear though, I didn't say there shouldn't be a difference between the people that play 10 hours a week vs the 40hr a week group. I was just saying it shouldn't be an absolute insurmountable difference between them. I was just saying I would rather have actual skill mean more than free time spent in the game. So I'd like to see people who are skilled to be able to beat people even if they have a couple of tiers higher gear. (Granted, hopefully the person that plays more is more skilled... But that's not always the case. )
Let hardcore players be stronger than casuals because they're hardcore.
Or you could break down the item you no longer need into raw materials and use those to repair your now better item. Or maybe you’ll give it to the alt of a guild mate in your hardcore guild. You’re assuming how the system works. We don’t know yet, so your solution might not be a solution at all.
I understand that the corruption system will help protect casuals to some extent. However, there might still be situations where a casual guild would try to farm somewhere and a hardcore guild could just come and stomp them out because their gear power level is insurmountable. And don’t get me started on caravans.
A lot of people have brought up the idea of casuals needing to rely on their hardcore friends for help. But that’s bogus for two reasons:
1. It sucks to be relegated to babysitter gameplay… no one wants to feel like they need a babysitter to play the game.
2. Hardcore players most often play with other hardcore players because that is the best and most optimal way to play hardcore… you won’t have casuals holding you back. Especially in a game that relies on open world PvP as much as AoC.
Yeah that's the answer type I was expecting.
But I posit to you a quandary.
On page 13 of this thread at the top you ask me about Enchanting, wondering why I believe Intrepid would do something a specific way that would fix the problem.
Then a little later you outright ask 'do we know that they have the skills to design like this'?
But technically they wouldn't need the skill, right? In all arrogance, if they were not skilled, all they would need to do is listen to me. To do otherwise would be to explicitly choose to do it less skilfully because they thought it would be better.
But then, if they won't even listen to me when I'm giving 'ways to solve it within their own systems that I figure they are already going to leverage'... what's the point of the thread? Why would they care what you have to say?
No.
P2W means I spend money in addition to the sub to gain items or buffs that make me more powerful than other players.
If we both pay the same gym membership fee to the same gym and I go everyday and you go once a month, I’m going to be stronger than you. That’s not pay to win.
This is a little complicated in some people's perspectives for a related reason so, I'll ask a point for my own edification actually, both to you and @SirChancelot .
In a game with no sub, with the capacity to spend $20 (and no more) across 4 different $5 premium 'buffs' to your character (let's assume nothing that feeds DIRECTLY into combat for simplicity), is spending the $5-10-15-20 Pay To Win?
I have a problem with games where Bob can spend $800 a month to Sue's $8 and get 100x the chances or rewards, but no problem with games where Bob can spend $20 and Sue can choose to spend $0 and Bob be generally superior to Sue.
Playtime is the same, to me.
Once again, never asked for equalized gear.
I’m giving the simplest way to solve within their system as well… I don’t understand your point. What I’m saying about your suggestion of passing down the gear to casuals is perfectly valid. Breaking down the item could be just as good of an option considering how AoC’s crafting and durability will work.
You still didn’t answer the situation where a casual guild might be kicked out by a hardcore guild because gear power differences are insurmountable and you also didn’t address caravans. Once again, I think many of you underestimate just how much hardcore players will play with other hardcore players in a game like AoC.
But this isn’t real life. This is a game. And the amount of resources (money or time) that you have in real life shouldn’t translate into insurmountable advantages.
You're not going to reread the numbers, you're not going to demonstrate any faith in Intrepid, you're not going to accept that not all hardcore players are the same, and you haven't even defined what that is even after I for some reason went to actually get you the numbers you needed to do it with.
But you WILL repeat multiple times about the equalized gear thing. My model for this type of engagement indicates that I should avoid it, for my own sake, so, my options are to finally ignore you, or attempt a 'hostile takeover' of this thread while arguing your point for you just so that it's at least halfway productive, but then it would end because I can't drum up enough bad-faith situations to justify it.
So, sure. Casual Guild running a Caravan will lose to a Hardcore Guild.
In my model, a Casual Guild of Intermittent Players will DEFINITELY get stomped by players who play this game as their fulltime job. The question changes, then.
When did this Casual Guild of Intermittent Players find time to pack up a whole CARAVAN?
I am a Casual Challenge/HardcoreTime player. My community has some Hardcore Challenge players.
And we play together because we enjoy playing a variety of games together - including D&D.
Also - a lot of our Community is from Landmark.
And in Landmark we worked together to Craft stuff, to share techniques and to teach techniques in video tutorials.
Casual Challenge/Hardcore Time players will have the opportunity to Craft competitive gear for friends who ony have Casual Time. Same for Hardcore Challenge players who are part of a "casual" guild that doesn't care about being the most efficient as possible - especially when it comes to being the most efficient with time.
But, also - Ashes is focused on large battles; not 1v1 PvP. (It's also focused on objective-based PvP)
So, this is not about 1v1 gear disparity or even guild v guild gear disparity.
It's going to be based on Caravan raids and Sieges.
And those are going to be a chaotic mix of casuals and hardcores.
Where what matters is achieving the objective(s); not the casual v hardcore gear disparity.
The majority of hardcore players are going to play with other hardcore players. That’s just how it works. Hardcore players like to play with other hardcore players. I don’t know what MMOs you’ve played where that’s not true, but that’s how it works most of the time. The numbers that you gave were awesome, but that still doesn’t change a simple fact: if hardcore players can gain an insurmountable gear advantage, many players will have a bad time. It’s not about bad faith situations. It’s about the simple fact stated above.
I only repeat the stuff about equalized gear because I’m being accused of it over and over again. Imagine how I feel…
Hahahaha what? What does being casual have ANYTHING to do with being able to pack a caravan?? I’m certain that an entire guild of casuals can farm enough for a caravan. What?
Edit: word
You said simply this "I dont want people to have more power just because they have more free time".
After hearing the above, bringing gear into it starts feeling irrelevant.
You cant protect casuals from more dedicated players. And you shouldnt.
Mind you... casuals will never be better in mmo pvp even if you give them a max out char with top items. Know why? Lack of experience.
Heh - I’ll always whiteboard with you @Azherae - you know that. 🤪
I’m really not a fan of the whole f2p w/VIP sub thing that Neverwinter, ESO, and a few others do. As a player I’d couch those as subbed games with a limited F2P model (instead of players with monthly subs as P2W).
So, that said - in a true F2P model w/a cash shop - if I pay to buff xp gain, power, or any other advantage that allows me to beat another player or progress forward that’s P2W.
In your example, it could be those $5 are just cosmetic. Cosmetics aren’t P2W.
I never said that I want pure skill… I never said that I want equalized gear.
Yes, most casuals will lose to a hardcore player if it’s just skill based. But there are casuals who are good at the game who could stand a chance to hardcore players and there are hardcore players who are trash at the game who would lose to a casual… I’m just saying that a good casual player should stand a chance and gear shouldn’t be an insurmountable barrier. This concept cannot be too difficult, right?