VmanGman wrote: » Dygz wrote: » If the devs don't know how to balance gear properly, they won't learn anything from this thread. They especially won't learn anything new after Page 5. Considering that there are games out there that don’t understand the effects of severe gear power differences, we cannot assume that Intrepid knows any better.
Dygz wrote: » If the devs don't know how to balance gear properly, they won't learn anything from this thread. They especially won't learn anything new after Page 5.
Sylvanar wrote: » Games became popular because they were fun and hard at the same time. This lead to people wanting to do things to prove themselves. Not only hardcore people, casual people too. Else they might as well watch TV. This lead to a sense of achievement. Everyone enters the game as a casual and then some move on to become hardcore and some remain casual. Quitters quit, there is no remedy for that. You can give them best gear and they will die to a lvl 1 mob and quit and call the game shit. Creating weak environment to pacify the "masses" is a sure fire way of leaving the game with only clueless casuals and trolls. Imagine AoC where casuals can stand "almost" on par with hardcore players cuz of game design. Now imagine an AoC server where there are no hardcore players cuz they dont see the point of investing time in a game that doesnt reward them. Tbh I am surprised this thread has gone on for so long considering it isnt based on anything concrete and just "it matters" and "game will die" slogans.
VmanGman wrote: » Noaani You and I just have vastly different understandings to what is good and healthy game design for a MMO. I hope AoC succeeds.
Noaani wrote: » A good MMO will make sure players are never able to cap out on their progression. Before anyone gets to that top tier of progression, a new tier will be added to the game. This applies at the top end of the game, but also at various points all the way down so that no player has ever completed all the progression they feel they are able to complete. Sure, that may make some people feel like the game is just a never ending treadmill - but that is what MMO's are. They aren't supposed to end until the game closes down.
mcstackerson wrote: » I'm not sure how this creates a weak environment or would pacify anyone. If anyone wants casuals to be passive, it's you since you want your gear to save you from them. Maybe it would make you passive if you rely on gear to win fights?
Sylvanar wrote: » Currently, Steven has said that gear would compose of 50% of characters power. Let say there are 5 tier of gears in the game and each tier of gear having a lower and higher category: - Common: 5-10% - Uncommon: 15-20% - Rare: 25-30% - Epic: 35-40% - Above Epic below legendary, say Divine: 45-50% I am not counting legendries cuz they will be very hard to obtain and very few in number, so holders of these items deserve their well earned bonus power boost. Now as per what I have stated the difference between different tier of gears would be 10%. A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. It is what I believe. Effort needs to be rewarded cuz X stands head and shoulders above A. Plain and simple. Player A has to earn the right to be capable of challenging player X. Like how in real world, just because you become an adult you dont become successful because you have skill or money. You have to work to be comparable to those people and then you can go on to challenge them. If player A is going to quit after he dies to X then its better for the community, less toxicity overall. An average player will have epic gear of lower category at least i.e. 85% of their characters power. Most hardcore players will have half higher category epic and some divine category gear i.e. 93-96% of their characters power. As you can see, even if gears contributes 50% towards a characters stats, the difference between the power of an average player and a hardcore will be somewhere around 8-15%. I know these numbers are assumptions on my part but it is based on what Steven has said gears would contribute. Even after all this if you aren't convinced that your concern is basically carebear mentality I cant think of anything else to say except "ASHES ISNT FOR EVERYONE."
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Noaani You and I just have vastly different understandings to what is good and healthy game design for a MMO. I hope AoC succeeds. I have a simple question for you. In your experience, what do players do when they no longer have any meaningful progress they can make in an MMO? IMO one need look no further than WoW server populations to see this. They swell with new expansions, and as people complete the content they are able to complete, the population drops. Then, as new content (and thus new progression) is added, they come back - until they have completed the progression they are able to complete. A good MMO will make sure players are never able to cap out on their progression. Before anyone gets to that top tier of progression, a new tier will be added to the game. This applies at the top end of the game, but also at various points all the way down so that no player has ever completed all the progression they feel they are able to complete. Sure, that may make some people feel like the game is just a never ending treadmill - but that is what MMO's are. They aren't supposed to end until the game closes down.
CROW3 wrote: » Ashes is a themebox, not a sandpark.
Azryil wrote: » Noaani wrote: » A good MMO will make sure players are never able to cap out on their progression. Before anyone gets to that top tier of progression, a new tier will be added to the game. This applies at the top end of the game, but also at various points all the way down so that no player has ever completed all the progression they feel they are able to complete. Sure, that may make some people feel like the game is just a never ending treadmill - but that is what MMO's are. They aren't supposed to end until the game closes down. I'm not sure this is realistic, ideally sure it would be nice to never run out of things to work towards, but short of making the content unbearably grindy or so difficult that the majority of players would never be able to complete it I don't think it could really be done. Players blow through content significantly faster than developers can realistically create engaging content.
VmanGman wrote: » Your comment is absolutely pointless and factually wrong.
When it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5] In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven SharifWhen it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5] In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven Sharif
CROW3 wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Your comment is absolutely pointless and factually wrong. /sigh When it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5] In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven SharifWhen it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5] In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven Sharif I think my responses on this thread speak for themselves, regardless of your defensiveness.
Leonerdo5 wrote: » Wow this discussion is just the whole debate about income/wealth inequality all over again. How much of an advantage/reward should you get for being rich (or having a lot of spare time, or other privileges.) I hope this game helps y'all figure out the right answers before you learn it the hard way in real life. And no I'm not gonna share what I think is correct, because I know nobody is ever convinced by strangers on the internet, when it comes to fundamental and contentious stuff like this.
VmanGman wrote: » Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
Sylvanar wrote: » Imagine AoC where casuals can stand "almost" on par with hardcore players cuz of game design. Now imagine an AoC server where there are no hardcore players cuz they dont see the point of investing time in a game that doesn't reward them.
CROW3 wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree. Heh. There are differences, particularly relative to the story being told, and the player's participation in that story. Ultimately, Ashes is probably going to be its own thing somewhere in that gray. The only reason I brought it up, is that 'themebox' is how Intrepid explicitly refers to their design direction. Feel free to be aggrieved accordingly.
