Especially when like 50% of the people will definitely go 'yes that is a great idea do that!'
Way more than 50%, which will usually then snowball into bigger asks. But I get your point.
L2 had an "anti-chaos character" buff where PKers couldn't attack the person with the buff. That buff was given out by an npc in any town for free. But that's just another anti-PK system rather than an anti-PvP one.
Also, considering the "sub-40 no pvp" thing. In your opinion, how should artisanal levels correlate with the adventure lvl, if at all? Cause I could see that as a huge potential hole, if a sub-40 dude could be a top lvl artisan and just go around picking up super rare resources w/o anyone being able to stop him. Yes, the mobs would be a factor, but there's way too many variables there. Also, if you have such a dude in your high lvl party, he'd be the resource vacuum and would never lose them due to PK. I'd definitely use this system in such a way if it allowed me to.
But that's not a completely valid argument either, that's just 'the ability to prevent your Artisan from getting PKed at World Bosses'. Meaningful, but not overwhelming since if owPvP is gone, you can't have that issue anyway. Basically, this only applies to high level gatherers. But 'low level gatherers' who just want to 'play to relax' are exactly the sort of people that make easy targets, so to them, 'preventing them from being able to relax and enjoy the game so that some top level player can be subject to being killed by a different top level player'... what benefit is that? Again, I would use gathering as my big argument point, if it were up to me, but I wouldn't count on it, because it's so much easier to solve this by putting high level gatherables behind strong mobs.
Everything that can be viewed as an 'exploit' can also be viewed as a perfectly legitimate and often 'expected option' from the casual player, which is the problem.
And in case you forgot, Freeholds are safe zones as of last check. You can do this now if you have people willing to just bring the resources to you. That's why I say that there are a lot of oddly contradictory offerings here. There are so many ways to avoid PvP 'problems' now for those who aim to do so, that only fail to help the exact people who would be complaining, that changing it is just 'extending an olive branch to those people'.
As I said, I need to recheck some systems, it's just that we've never seemingly got this far before in this sort of discussion (that I've seen) because these always devolve into what we were heading for a page or two ago, long before they get to the point of 'wait does this even work?'
Consensual and non-consensual are standard terminology and just playing the game does not change non-consensual to consensual. If a player cannot choose when he/she wants to fight in PvP (for example get ganked) that is always non-consensual PvP. He would not touch to any consensual PvP part of the game, sieges, caravans, other battlegrounds, and those can stay as are. However, he would like to change open world PvP rules from non-consensual PvP to consensual PvP which would mean in practice that non-combatant green players cannot be attacked anymore. Open world PvP would happen only between those players who are flagged to combatant. Perhaps PvE-server as a term is here a little bit misleading because most of the PvP would be still involded in this theoretical server.
You don't have to try to perform these sort of mental gymnastics to explain his point of view. I am perfectly aware what he is asking for, and I still disagree.
There is open world PvP, which means you are okay with fighting in the open. End of story. This argument is like saying dying in Call of duty Multiplayer is non consensual because I am doing a pacifist challenge, and it's unfair how people shoot me. There are guns in the game, and you're playing against other people. This is the game with it's rules, and you knowingly entered that space. It doesn't matter if at some points you REALLY don't want to die (because let's say you're carrying some rare materials, and trust me nobody wants to die and lose items, but this sort of emotional investment is the point of the system), open world PvP still allows people to attack you. I could copy Steven's stance and the PvX article again on why this is important for the game's design but I'm not going to, you can scroll up and read it.
Arguing about this makes absolutely zero sense. The guy who want this to be different clearly just wishes for a more forgiving environment. Go and play a game with such a setting, there are boatloads of them.
You said: "I've been reading your comments and I still don't understand the point you're trying to make here."
And now you are saying that you are perfectly aware what he is asking. Makes no sense.
"I still don't understand the point you're trying to make here" This is something we say in my native language to people who act really dumb. I do understand the point, I just don't get it how can anyone be so obnoxious to not realize how wrong it is. I guess it translates rough into english, which is a good argument if you got nothing else. What's next, calling out sarcasm and irony?
Great, you found one of the MMOs that have PvE servers and flagging. Now go and play it.
So basically you decided the other person was wrong and then explicitly acted as if you didn't understand them. Not even that you didn't understand 'why they had the perception' so you could correct it... just 'outright not meaning it'.
This sounds to me like you're much more likely to be the one not understanding.
If Ashes retained Caravan PvP, Node PvP, Siege PvP, Guild v Guild PvP, Arena PvP, and then changed a few things about people's expectations of bosses, then they still have a heavy PvP game that just doesn't contain pure owPvP.
To some people, who want or don't mind those five forms of PvP but don't want 'random owPvP', this sounds like a good product. It's also one you can't currently get at the implied quality anywhere else. So in short, you're conflating 'I would like this specific form of PvP removed' with 'I should be willing to play other less good games without any of the other forms of PvP I might eventually like because the designers of this game are adamant about keeping the last kind that I don't like'.
Anyways, since you've clarified now that you actually don't have a lack of understanding, just 'prefer to dismiss other people's perspectives if you have a way to just not engage', then at least say that, because there are other people with genuine lack of understanding, so people try to engage you as if you are one of those people.
I understand the situation, you don't seem to be realizing how ridiculous it is when people try to force their optics and needs on other games where the direction is set. You are literally arguing the fundamental systems of the game. You should practice that "understanding" you're preaching about and move on.
"Certainly a hotly debated topic in the community..
My hope is that when Alpha Two releases, players who aren't familiar with or perhaps not overly enthusiastic about true open-world PvPvE / PvX will see how it works and perhaps better understand what makes it fun. It certainly isn't for everyone. I think that some people will be surprised with how well it can work, though!
Perhaps some of you can share interesting or fun open-world PvP stories for those who are hesitant about the feature? ^_^"
You're saying "your stance" like as if this was exclusive to me. This is literally the game's vision, and you are arguing with people on what the game should be. This is not just my stance, this is Steven's and the team's stance who are working on the game.
@Keyozen Man your bait thread derailed out of control
Next Match
I will be taking your bets here
I don't pick on the small-fry, James.
Unless they're picking my herbs or something.
Besides, by their own declaration, they would definitely PK me, so clearly I'm doomed to lose and your betting pool is pointless. I have been overwhelmed by their confidence.
I see, well for me, i don't mind preying upon the weak if i see fit.
But after his "Ran the 1# Guild in his sub-2K player NW server" Boast tentative, i might have to reconsider....
Don't you only play dead mmos than play new ones when they are released?
New World #1 and my man is talking about Dead MMOs
Nah, Lineage 2 isn't the only MMORPG i play(even tho is the one i played the most) but i have a bias towards playing MMORPGs that have strong PvP focus such as Archeage and a bit of BDO, i dropped NW like a hot potato as soon as they made owPvP optional and after testing bug fiesta Sieges.
Looking at you boast about something like #1 guild in a NW server makes me almost feel bad for you on how massacred your guild would get in games like AA or L2.
And i would massacre you in Shadowbane lmao, I would massacre your whole guild by myself in BDO.
All i hear from you is you play old dead mmorpgs. I played old ones and then moved onto new ones. PvPing in a dead mmo means nothing years down the line even more so. I played new world at its peak before I stopped like every other mmorpg. Funny thing is new world has had way more players then your mmorpg don't get it twisted bud. Only big mmorpg that was relevant with a ton of players was WoW.
Consensual PvP only.
Everyone keeps saying the game is designed for PvX and I get that. You can have the mandatory PVP associated with the things that would require it such as node sieges and the PVP zone around caravans, etc. Without having the full open world flagging. Corruption can still be a thing, it could come into play if someone goes on an NPC killing spree or something.
If ashes launches and has 20 servers to choose from and 2-4 are for the people that don't care for PvP but want to play the game, then let them play there. Why should the other 80% of players care how that 20% portion wants to play?
In my opinion saying it shouldn't be there is similar to me saying non combat pets are dumb, and just a waste, and not how the game should be played.... 80% of the population doesn't walk around with them anyways, only 20% collect and enjoy them, but I don't want them to enjoy themselves over there...
And to the people saying stuff like
"You are selfish for not willing to offer a bit of fun to PvP-ers." and "You would not be there for me to PK". Those are the exact reasons some people want the PvE servers, to get away from players that act like that.
I've been reading your comments and I still don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The fact that you're playing a PvX game makes open world PvP consensual by default, because you agree to the rules by playing a game with set and public rules. These rules are not hidden from you, you are very well aware what you're getting into. This game has it's set vision and direction, Steven talked about these multiple times. Why are you here if you don't like what the game offers? You are not the target audience, and that's okay. Just as I'm not the target audience for FF14, yet you don't see me complaining on their forums about catgirls and the themepark gameplay, I just look for things that suits me more, such as Ashes of Creation.
"Ashes of Creation is a PvX game. Players will naturally encounter both PvP and PvE elements.[2][3][4] It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[4]
There is a balance between PvP and PvE in Ashes of Creation.[4]
All stats relate to a player's combat effectiveness in PvX.[5]
There won't be separate PvE and PvP servers but some servers may be more PvP focused than others.[3][6]
There will not be different PvP and PvE gear types.[7]
Progression in the game might require PvE elements.[4]
We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody. But you know it is an important reciprocal relationship between the content that's related to PvE and the content that's related to PvP and they feed off of each other. They're catalysts for change: Their progression, their development. It's things that people can value when they see something earned and they see something lost. That elicits an emotional response from the player: That they've invested time in to either succeed or fail; and PvP allows for that element to be introduced into gameplay. And we're very clear that is our objective: That risk versus reward relationship, that achievement-based mentality. Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay.[8] – Steven Sharif"
Now let me clarify it for you, because your narcissism is still showing: "We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody."
"Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."
If you don't like the game don't follow it, fairly simple. Yes, this is going to be a PvX game, take it or leave it.
If you read all of my comments you would have seen that I don't want it. I was saying that I don't care if they make them or not...
Some people sound offended that anyone even says they would enjoy a PvE servers, and I'm saying I wouldn't be bothered by it... Because making a separate PvE server that I wouldn't play on isn't going to effect me playing on a PvX servers at all.
So I was trying to figure out why people cared... Most answers were meaningless fluff
Because if someone goes to Steven and says 'Steven we NEED to make open world PvP opt-in until level 35, it still keeps most of the same functions of the game, you can still attack sub-35 people in Guild Wars and every other situation, but we need to protect the casuals', I would like to know that Steven has a truly good reason to deny this suggestion other than 'No, I promised the people!'
If you can't see how Steven would have a truly good reason to deny that suggestion...I don't even know what to say really. That suggestion would be pretty game breaking.
Level 35, un guilded, un noded alts would be in style like never before.
You're saying "your stance" like as if this was exclusive to me. This is literally the game's vision, and you are arguing with people on what the game should be. This is not just my stance, this is Steven's and the team's stance who are working on the game.
Azherae is not arguing against it, she's trying to see a deeper point that makes this kind of system truly required. This is just a discussion that's trying to get to a deeper point than just throwing around opinions or preferences, yet most people here are just trying to attack each other's dick size. Both discussions are ultimately pointless, but one at least brings deeper understanding of the mechanics/features and reasonings behind them, while the other literally provides no benefit to any of the sides of said discussion.
@Keyozen Man your bait thread derailed out of control
Next Match
I will be taking your bets here
I don't pick on the small-fry, James.
Unless they're picking my herbs or something.
Besides, by their own declaration, they would definitely PK me, so clearly I'm doomed to lose and your betting pool is pointless. I have been overwhelmed by their confidence.
I see, well for me, i don't mind preying upon the weak if i see fit.
But after his "Ran the 1# Guild in his sub-2K player NW server" Boast tentative, i might have to reconsider....
Don't you only play dead mmos than play new ones when they are released?
New World #1 and my man is talking about Dead MMOs
Nah, Lineage 2 isn't the only MMORPG i play(even tho is the one i played the most) but i have a bias towards playing MMORPGs that have strong PvP focus such as Archeage and a bit of BDO, i dropped NW like a hot potato as soon as they made owPvP optional and after testing bug fiesta Sieges.
Looking at you boast about something like #1 guild in a NW server makes me almost feel bad for you on how massacred your guild would get in games like AA or L2.
And i would massacre you in Shadowbane lmao, I would massacre your whole guild by myself in BDO.
All i hear from you is you play old dead mmorpgs. I played old ones and then moved onto new ones. PvPing in a dead mmo means nothing years down the line even more so. I played new world at its peak before I stopped like every other mmorpg. Funny thing is new world has had way more players then your mmorpg don't get it twisted bud. Only big mmorpg that was relevant with a ton of players was WoW.
Haha scary scary
Let me take your word on that and say: Thanks God Steven's main inspirations for Ashes is L2 and AA and not Shadowbane and BDO!
Funny thing is A single Lineage 2 server would hold ~5K players back in 2003 and a NW server is barely able to hold 2K in 2021!
You're saying "your stance" like as if this was exclusive to me. This is literally the game's vision, and you are arguing with people on what the game should be. This is not just my stance, this is Steven's and the team's stance who are working on the game.
Azherae is not arguing against it, she's trying to see a deeper point that makes this kind of system truly required. This is just a discussion that's trying to get to a deeper point than just throwing around opinions or preferences, yet most people here are just trying to attack each other's dick size. Both discussions are ultimately pointless, but one at least brings deeper understanding of the mechanics/features and reasonings behind them, while the other literally provides no benefit to any of the sides of said discussion.
What do you mean "that makes this kind of system truly required"... the point is fun, and that they have their vision and plans... or is that not something that we should focus on anymore? The team wants this game to have that true MMO feeling where people interact with each other in the open world, and PvP is just as much of a part of that immersive world as PvE. That's why the game is identified as "PvX", and majority of the content will be in open world (even PvE).
I'm surprised this has to be explained, I always assume people know what they are talking about when they engage in conversations such as game design, balance changes, etc. But this is clearly not the case when it comes to some of these people. If you think PvP can be restricted like this without completely undermining like half the systems in the game you are part of the people who are not very familiar with how the game is going work.
Because if someone goes to Steven and says 'Steven we NEED to make open world PvP opt-in until level 35, it still keeps most of the same functions of the game, you can still attack sub-35 people in Guild Wars and every other situation, but we need to protect the casuals', I would like to know that Steven has a truly good reason to deny this suggestion other than 'No, I promised the people!'
If you can't see how Steven would have a truly good reason to deny that suggestion...I don't even know what to say really. That suggestion would be pretty game breaking.
Level 35, un guilded, un noded alts would be in style like never before.
Yes, so I ask... why?
At this point, (and note, I AGREE) you're saying 'I would rather that people who would make these types of characters be forced to fight instead even though they don't want to, or leave'.
This is fine. What I want is beyond that. I want them to want to fight. I want them to want to learn to fight. I want Ashes to be the game that teaches some of those players 'PvP is fun'. But let's assume that for right now, nothing is implemented to make that aspect more likely.
From the other side, you're saying something interestingly different by default. "The point of owPvP is to make it so that a level 34 gathering can just be killed whenever in order to maintain some form of economic/power balance."
Again, I agree. But you can probably see why, especially when talking to someone who isn't as interested in this prospect, the only reactions we've managed to come up with, as a community, basically so far, are:
"Ashes might not be for you."
and
"There will be winners and losers."
Most people who come in here asking for PvE are not JUST going 'I don't want to fight', they're scared that the greatest game they've seen proposed in years might die/be super niche because it unapologetically contains a mechanic that is now a strong negative for the dwindling MMO population (and yes I have data for this but it's not massaged because you can't be SURE about everyone, sentiment is a score).
We haven't offered a single actual backing to 'Well try it maybe you'll like it'. Now, that's not on us, we can't do that yet because we haven't seen the combat/escape options. But focusing on what I'm saying here, if you tell people 'You still have to learn to fight in order to defend your node, to defend your guild, to move your goods around', some will go 'I will play but not do any of that' and some will go 'I will learn to do that later when I've become comfortable with the game'.
If our only answer to someone that asks 'Well what if Azherae's gang decides to just murder me while gathering when I haven't made any strong friends yet', is 'Someone will punish them' or 'well you should make friends faster', I see this being about as effective as New World's Alpha.
You don't think there's a massive number of crazy sadists out there who will pay $15 a month (maybe just ONCE even) just to kill newbies and laugh about it? Or are we expecting the newbies to not only run the gauntlet/join late but also become consistent fodder for all those sadists who now have lots of PvP practice?
The only thing protecting the Hardcore PvP MMOs from this sort of thing is that those people are often actually weak players who get bored once they've chased off all their prey and everyone left is an actual fight, then they leave too and the only remaining people are people like us.
The thing I want is for Intrepid to make the game so that only the most PvE person possible even thinks "I'll just stay here at level 34, I don't want to learn to fight." I want everyone else to go 'ok I think I know how to do this, time to level to 36 and give it a try'. If that's not achievable, then I don't have much reason to have faith in the vision of this game anyway.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Now if we look at all the pvp events in the game, we'd have castle/node sieges, caravans (in this case only mayoral and quest-based) and guild wars. The sieges part would happen maybe once a month for any given player, and that's if they manage to be a part of the siege itself and whether the siege even happens.
With a server that has 180 Nodes, how are you calculating Node sieges only occuring once per month?
The caravans is an interesting thing, because imo unless Intrepid forces mayors and other people to use the quest-based caravans (or at least makes it waaaay more beneficial to do so) - I don't see a reason why someone would risk their own or their node's resources in a quest caravan run when they can just run one alone in a group w/o any fear of being attacked.
There's battlegrounds PvP associated with Castle Sieges at least once per week for each of the 5 Castles.
And the remaining pvp event is guild wars. Steven has said that he wants to have those wars be more meaningful than their L2 counterpart, so this won't necessarily be a pure pvp event. It'll more likely be a some kind of event with pvp in it, akin to the caravan system. Afaik it was also stated that declaring a guild war won't be as easy and as cheap as it was in L2 (pretty much just hit a button and that's it ) nor will the refusal be free. So this leads me to believe that we might not see too many guild wars among people. Especially if we consider this in the context of a PvE server where most people would probably expect to chill and just kill some mobs or do some artisanal shit.
Steven wants Guild Wars to be objective-based, but I would expect Guild Wars to be rare on a "PvE Server". Yes.
And so with all of those things considered, we come to a point where the "sand" part of the game would maybe amount to an evening's worth of content roughly once a month. That doesn't sound all that sandy to me. Now it could be argued that this is the whole point of having a PvE server, but at that point I personally wouldn't call this game Ashes of Creation.
I think the "sand" part will still be fairly substantial, but RP and cooperation, working together to progress the world in specific directions, will be more prevalent.
Rather than progressing the world via competitiveness and conflict motivated by a love for PvP combat.
Consensual PvP only.
Everyone keeps saying the game is designed for PvX and I get that. You can have the mandatory PVP associated with the things that would require it such as node sieges and the PVP zone around caravans, etc. Without having the full open world flagging. Corruption can still be a thing, it could come into play if someone goes on an NPC killing spree or something.
If ashes launches and has 20 servers to choose from and 2-4 are for the people that don't care for PvP but want to play the game, then let them play there. Why should the other 80% of players care how that 20% portion wants to play?
In my opinion saying it shouldn't be there is similar to me saying non combat pets are dumb, and just a waste, and not how the game should be played.... 80% of the population doesn't walk around with them anyways, only 20% collect and enjoy them, but I don't want them to enjoy themselves over there...
And to the people saying stuff like
"You are selfish for not willing to offer a bit of fun to PvP-ers." and "You would not be there for me to PK". Those are the exact reasons some people want the PvE servers, to get away from players that act like that.
I've been reading your comments and I still don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The fact that you're playing a PvX game makes open world PvP consensual by default, because you agree to the rules by playing a game with set and public rules. These rules are not hidden from you, you are very well aware what you're getting into. This game has it's set vision and direction, Steven talked about these multiple times. Why are you here if you don't like what the game offers? You are not the target audience, and that's okay. Just as I'm not the target audience for FF14, yet you don't see me complaining on their forums about catgirls and the themepark gameplay, I just look for things that suits me more, such as Ashes of Creation.
"Ashes of Creation is a PvX game. Players will naturally encounter both PvP and PvE elements.[2][3][4] It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[4]
There is a balance between PvP and PvE in Ashes of Creation.[4]
All stats relate to a player's combat effectiveness in PvX.[5]
There won't be separate PvE and PvP servers but some servers may be more PvP focused than others.[3][6]
There will not be different PvP and PvE gear types.[7]
Progression in the game might require PvE elements.[4]
We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody. But you know it is an important reciprocal relationship between the content that's related to PvE and the content that's related to PvP and they feed off of each other. They're catalysts for change: Their progression, their development. It's things that people can value when they see something earned and they see something lost. That elicits an emotional response from the player: That they've invested time in to either succeed or fail; and PvP allows for that element to be introduced into gameplay. And we're very clear that is our objective: That risk versus reward relationship, that achievement-based mentality. Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay.[8] – Steven Sharif"
Now let me clarify it for you, because your narcissism is still showing: "We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody."
"Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."
If you don't like the game don't follow it, fairly simple. Yes, this is going to be a PvX game, take it or leave it.
If you read all of my comments you would have seen that I don't want it. I was saying that I don't care if they make them or not...
Some people sound offended that anyone even says they would enjoy a PvE servers, and I'm saying I wouldn't be bothered by it... Because making a separate PvE server that I wouldn't play on isn't going to effect me playing on a PvX servers at all.
So I was trying to figure out why people cared... Most answers were meaningless fluff
Meaningless fluff? That was my line. The whole conversation is meaningless, especially when you keep focusing on this imaginary scenario that people are offended by pve servers. We just dont want the devs to waste time and money on a side project when there are things like expansions that always need that.
Enough with the food chain examples. How difficult is it to understand what game IS is trying to make?
They are trying to bring back the old mmo designs.
If money and wallets were the concern, an mmo would not be the investment of choice.
Because if someone goes to Steven and says 'Steven we NEED to make open world PvP opt-in until level 35, it still keeps most of the same functions of the game, you can still attack sub-35 people in Guild Wars and every other situation, but we need to protect the casuals', I would like to know that Steven has a truly good reason to deny this suggestion other than 'No, I promised the people!'
If you can't see how Steven would have a truly good reason to deny that suggestion...I don't even know what to say really. That suggestion would be pretty game breaking.
Level 35, un guilded, un noded alts would be in style like never before.
Actually a different take on this.
"That suggestion would be pretty game-breaking."
What is 'the game' it is breaking? I will definitely give you gathering, as noted before, this is our strongest argument right now.
What else is it 'breaking'? Because the only thing I see is 'other people are supposed to be able to kill you'. The underlying reason for this is still unclear (again, I'm giving the Gathering point). Why EXACTLY are other people supposed to be able to kill you? Why is that 'the game' other than the fact that 'Steven said so' and 'us PvP-ers want people to fight'?
@Keyozen Man your bait thread derailed out of control
Next Match
I will be taking your bets here
I don't pick on the small-fry, James.
Unless they're picking my herbs or something.
Besides, by their own declaration, they would definitely PK me, so clearly I'm doomed to lose and your betting pool is pointless. I have been overwhelmed by their confidence.
I see, well for me, i don't mind preying upon the weak if i see fit.
But after his "Ran the 1# Guild in his sub-2K player NW server" Boast tentative, i might have to reconsider....
Don't you only play dead mmos than play new ones when they are released?
New World #1 and my man is talking about Dead MMOs
Nah, Lineage 2 isn't the only MMORPG i play(even tho is the one i played the most) but i have a bias towards playing MMORPGs that have strong PvP focus such as Archeage and a bit of BDO, i dropped NW like a hot potato as soon as they made owPvP optional and after testing bug fiesta Sieges.
Looking at you boast about something like #1 guild in a NW server makes me almost feel bad for you on how massacred your guild would get in games like AA or L2.
And i would massacre you in Shadowbane lmao, I would massacre your whole guild by myself in BDO.
All i hear from you is you play old dead mmorpgs. I played old ones and then moved onto new ones. PvPing in a dead mmo means nothing years down the line even more so. I played new world at its peak before I stopped like every other mmorpg. Funny thing is new world has had way more players then your mmorpg don't get it twisted bud. Only big mmorpg that was relevant with a ton of players was WoW.
Haha scary scary
Let me take your word on that and say: Thanks God Steven's main inspirations for Ashes is L2 and AA and not Sadown bane and BDO!
Funny thing is A single Lineage 2 server would hold ~5K players back in 2003 and a NW server is barely able to hold 2K in 2021!
That number isn't important, it depends on the mass of the land and player expectation to fill it at the end of the day. So depending on the map size and player count would be a better judge. Also player number for live players is irrelevant, all that matters is you win and become the top guild and beat your competition.
What do you mean "that makes this kind of system truly required"... the point is fun... or is that not something that we should focus on anymore? The team wants this game to have that true MMO feeling where people interact with each other in the open world, and PvP is just as much of a part of that immersive world as PvE. That's why the game is identified as "PvX", and majority of the content will be in open world (even PvE).
I'm surprised this has to be explained, I always assume people know what they are talking about when they engage in conversations such as game design, balance changes, etc. But this is clearly not the case when it comes to some of these people. If you think PvP can be restricted like this without completely undermining like half the systems in the game you are part of the people who are not very familiar with how the game is going work.
And both me and Azherae want pvp to remain in the game. And not only remain, but be encouraged in such a way where the most amount of people will enjoy it. And Azherae was trying to understand what would change, if pvp was disabled around lower lvls, because having it disabled there might ease way more people into enjoying it at higher lvls. But so far the true reason behind this design is "just cause I wanna 4Head".
Any idea can only become its best self after you've tried any and all ways to counter it and it still stands up as a good idea. The only reason I'm even interested in Ashes is exactly because it has this pvp system across all lvls. But at its core, even L2's system existed just because it did. And I personally loved it. And I know several thousand people that did so as well. But you know what I also know? That millions of people loved when there was no pvp. And if Ashes wants to be successful, it gotta find a way to be appealing to people who might not be as ok with pvp, while not sacrificing the pvp entirely. And knowing/understanding the real root of the pvp design might give us a good clue as to how we can appeal to the pvp-dislikers w/o removing pvp completely.
Just saying "it's there cause I wanted so" doesn't help us, no matter how much I'd love it to.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
Go away. I saw you saying how you "like it when mobs have a leash. It means I can choose when to disengage from pve".
You got nothing of value to say.
But you know what dygz. Ill answer your *** question.
If you cant fight off other players from materials or bosses it means that the game will provide progress activities through npc gameplay and dailies, daily vendors daily currencies, instanced gear farming and battlegrounds to "itCh yOur Pvp SCratch".
Not what Ahes plans to be. Why even ask such a question, both you and the other one?
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
Just because its a good bunch of resources doesn't mean you will be attacked. Mainly based off the consequences, if it was something extremely rare that doesn't spawn often maybe there be a higher chance they attack if they see you. I don't think this will be a common thing mainly because of how often one will be gather resources for, you are taking corruption hits for resources that often all the time. In the end you would just lose far more then gain. Its not a realistic situation.
A more fitting situation would be you see a guild doing something and dec, and the guild dec takes 15 minutes to go through or such. Giving you some leeway and warning.
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
Just because its a good bunch of resources doesn't mean you will be attacked. Mainly based off the consequences, if it was something extremely rare that doesn't spawn often maybe there be a higher chance they attack if they see you. I don't think this will be a common thing mainly because of how often one will be gather resources for, you are taking corruption hits for resources that often all the time. In the end you would just lose far more then gain. Its not a realistic situation.
A more fitting situation would be you see a guild doing something and dec, and the guild dec takes 15 minutes to go through or such. Giving you some leeway and warning.
I think you're almost getting it now, so I'll springboard off you.
We got to 'well people will just have Alts you can't attack'.
But we also have 'The Corruption system will deter attacking'.
Why wouldn't you just make an Alt that is much lower level and go with a friend? The Alt gathers the materials, or holds them. If you the 'rival' kill this low level Alt to get the mats... now you are red. Very red.
There is no situation I can see in which you 'get very red for killing lowbies' to the point where you should think twice about doing it, AND where other people won't use low level Bait Alts to gather with since Artisanship isn't part of level.
I'm taking bets on how long it takes before we see such a character named Karmabomb.
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
Just because its a good bunch of resources doesn't mean you will be attacked. Mainly based off the consequences, if it was something extremely rare that doesn't spawn often maybe there be a higher chance they attack if they see you. I don't think this will be a common thing mainly because of how often one will be gather resources for, you are taking corruption hits for resources that often all the time. In the end you would just lose far more then gain. Its not a realistic situation.
A more fitting situation would be you see a guild doing something and dec, and the guild dec takes 15 minutes to go through or such. Giving you some leeway and warning.
I think you're almost getting it now, so I'll springboard off you.
We got to 'well people will just have Alts you can't attack'.
But we also have 'The Corruption system will deter attacking'.
Why wouldn't you just make an Alt that is much lower level and go with a friend? The Alt gathers the materials, or holds them. If you the 'rival' kill this low level Alt to get the mats... now you are red. Very red.
There is no situation I can see in which you 'get very red for killing lowbies' to the point where you should think twice about doing it, AND where other people won't use low level Bait Alts to gather with since Artisanship isn't part of level.
I'm taking bets on how long it takes before we see such a character named Karmabomb.
With what skills will the low alt manage to gather high resources? How will the low lv player fight nearby agro mobs? What stops players from killing the low lv alts protective group of decent players? Why would a high lv player be near low lv resources?
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
Just because its a good bunch of resources doesn't mean you will be attacked. Mainly based off the consequences, if it was something extremely rare that doesn't spawn often maybe there be a higher chance they attack if they see you. I don't think this will be a common thing mainly because of how often one will be gather resources for, you are taking corruption hits for resources that often all the time. In the end you would just lose far more then gain. Its not a realistic situation.
A more fitting situation would be you see a guild doing something and dec, and the guild dec takes 15 minutes to go through or such. Giving you some leeway and warning.
I think you're almost getting it now, so I'll springboard off you.
We got to 'well people will just have Alts you can't attack'.
But we also have 'The Corruption system will deter attacking'.
Why wouldn't you just make an Alt that is much lower level and go with a friend? The Alt gathers the materials, or holds them. If you the 'rival' kill this low level Alt to get the mats... now you are red. Very red.
There is no situation I can see in which you 'get very red for killing lowbies' to the point where you should think twice about doing it, AND where other people won't use low level Bait Alts to gather with since Artisanship isn't part of level.
I'm taking bets on how long it takes before we see such a character named Karmabomb.
With what skills will the low alt manage to gather high resources? Why would a high lv player be near low lv resources?
You do understand that Artisan skill is completely unrelated to Adventuring level, right?
You can be a level 1 Master Gatherer in this game.
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
Just because its a good bunch of resources doesn't mean you will be attacked. Mainly based off the consequences, if it was something extremely rare that doesn't spawn often maybe there be a higher chance they attack if they see you. I don't think this will be a common thing mainly because of how often one will be gather resources for, you are taking corruption hits for resources that often all the time. In the end you would just lose far more then gain. Its not a realistic situation.
A more fitting situation would be you see a guild doing something and dec, and the guild dec takes 15 minutes to go through or such. Giving you some leeway and warning.
I think you're almost getting it now, so I'll springboard off you.
We got to 'well people will just have Alts you can't attack'.
But we also have 'The Corruption system will deter attacking'.
Why wouldn't you just make an Alt that is much lower level and go with a friend? The Alt gathers the materials, or holds them. If you the 'rival' kill this low level Alt to get the mats... now you are red. Very red.
There is no situation I can see in which you 'get very red for killing lowbies' to the point where you should think twice about doing it, AND where other people won't use low level Bait Alts to gather with since Artisanship isn't part of level.
I'm taking bets on how long it takes before we see such a character named Karmabomb.
With what skills will the low alt manage to gather high resources? Why would a high lv player be near low lv resources?
You do understand that Artisan skill is completely unrelated to Adventuring level, right?
You can be a level 1 Master Gatherer in this game.
How will a low lv gatherer reach an area with good resources before dying to mobs?
With a server that has 180 Nodes, how are you calculating Node sieges only occuring once per month?
Why would I care for other nodes, when I have either limited time to do my own things (cause I'm time casual which is why I'm playing on a pve server) or I don't want to unnecessarily pvp. Singing up for another node's siege is just you spending time on pvp that has 0 relation to your own needs. I'd assume most people that go to PvE server don't waste their time on such things. Obviously you would because you enjoy pvp, just in limited amounts, but I'm talking about most people. If anyone has any kind of stats/info on why my assumption is wrong, I'd love to see it, cause it'd mean that a properly designed pvp system could attract all those people w/o making a PvE server.
I think the "sand" part will still be fairly substantial, but RP and cooperation, working together to progress the world in specific directions, will be more prevalent.
Rather than progressing the world via competitiveness and conflict motivated by a love for PvP combat.
As I said in the post, the biggest feature of the game is Nodes. Nodes' changes are based off of competition, even if sometimes indirect. You can't build up one node w/o destroying (or letting it get decayed) another node. Cooperation will build up the first wave of nodes and leave them as such, because destroying some Node would lead to the destruction of their homes, investments (mainly in-node housing) and resources. That doesn't sound all that cooperative to me.
I'm really asking what the consequences are for one server where it's not possible to fend off people from a nice cluster of materials or an open world raid boss.
Do tell!!
Just because its a good bunch of resources doesn't mean you will be attacked. Mainly based off the consequences, if it was something extremely rare that doesn't spawn often maybe there be a higher chance they attack if they see you. I don't think this will be a common thing mainly because of how often one will be gather resources for, you are taking corruption hits for resources that often all the time. In the end you would just lose far more then gain. Its not a realistic situation.
A more fitting situation would be you see a guild doing something and dec, and the guild dec takes 15 minutes to go through or such. Giving you some leeway and warning.
I think you're almost getting it now, so I'll springboard off you.
We got to 'well people will just have Alts you can't attack'.
But we also have 'The Corruption system will deter attacking'.
Why wouldn't you just make an Alt that is much lower level and go with a friend? The Alt gathers the materials, or holds them. If you the 'rival' kill this low level Alt to get the mats... now you are red. Very red.
There is no situation I can see in which you 'get very red for killing lowbies' to the point where you should think twice about doing it, AND where other people won't use low level Bait Alts to gather with since Artisanship isn't part of level.
I'm taking bets on how long it takes before we see such a character named Karmabomb.
With what skills will the low alt manage to gather high resources? Why would a high lv player be near low lv resources?
You do understand that Artisan skill is completely unrelated to Adventuring level, right?
You can be a level 1 Master Gatherer in this game.
How will a low lv gatherer reach an area with good resources before dying to mobs?
Genuinely sorry here, George, I didn't realize you had jumped in at the spot you did.
The hypothetical, if you care, was 'what if PvP only starts at level 35' (or some arbitrary lower level than that). The problem posed was 'we'll see a bunch of guildless level 35 alts'. Presumably because they could just not be PvPed while doing... something of importance, I assume gathering, but could also just be 'healing someone randomly'.
My point was 'if you are worried about level 35 alts being unattackable, why aren't you worried about level 10 Alts who you don't want to attack because Corruption?'
How will a low lv gatherer reach an area with good resources before dying to mobs?
Simple protection. I've led lvl56 summoners in L2 into veeery deep rooms in different dungeons. Didn't really have any problems.
The protective group can be PKed as I said alrdy in the previous post. Not a good answer.
I am still waiting to see where this new ridiculous scenario of a lv 1 Mastergatherer who can potentially be wealthy, avoiding all pvp in Ashes of Creation is going to go. I am still waiting, since the post that started this new rabbithole of weak arguements for the sake of arguing ("why is it gamebreaking to not be able to attack?")
You do understand that Artisan skill is completely unrelated to Adventuring level, right?
You can be a level 1 Master Gatherer in this game.
Honestly its kind of vague on the wiki as to what they mean by progression between leveling class and leveling artisan skills not having a correlation. That being said, having a level 1 character gathering high tier materials efficiently is kind of a laughable concept even if that is possible. According to the wiki, the amount of time it will take to get to that level of artisan skill even as a max level player will take a ton of time and resources, so that would be even more so for a low level alt.
And I will put this here as an easy fix to prevent that... Make both crafting levels, and class levels count towards the amount of corruption a character gives. If they are level 1, but have mastered an artisan skill. Treat them as a max level character in regards to how much corruption they give after being killed. Simple fix.
Comments
But that's not a completely valid argument either, that's just 'the ability to prevent your Artisan from getting PKed at World Bosses'. Meaningful, but not overwhelming since if owPvP is gone, you can't have that issue anyway. Basically, this only applies to high level gatherers. But 'low level gatherers' who just want to 'play to relax' are exactly the sort of people that make easy targets, so to them, 'preventing them from being able to relax and enjoy the game so that some top level player can be subject to being killed by a different top level player'... what benefit is that? Again, I would use gathering as my big argument point, if it were up to me, but I wouldn't count on it, because it's so much easier to solve this by putting high level gatherables behind strong mobs.
Everything that can be viewed as an 'exploit' can also be viewed as a perfectly legitimate and often 'expected option' from the casual player, which is the problem.
And in case you forgot, Freeholds are safe zones as of last check. You can do this now if you have people willing to just bring the resources to you. That's why I say that there are a lot of oddly contradictory offerings here. There are so many ways to avoid PvP 'problems' now for those who aim to do so, that only fail to help the exact people who would be complaining, that changing it is just 'extending an olive branch to those people'.
As I said, I need to recheck some systems, it's just that we've never seemingly got this far before in this sort of discussion (that I've seen) because these always devolve into what we were heading for a page or two ago, long before they get to the point of 'wait does this even work?'
I'll just leave this here from community moderator Vaknar (posted on June 21 , https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52674/gradual-transition-zones-pve-to-pvp#latest).
"Certainly a hotly debated topic in the community..
My hope is that when Alpha Two releases, players who aren't familiar with or perhaps not overly enthusiastic about true open-world PvPvE / PvX will see how it works and perhaps better understand what makes it fun. It certainly isn't for everyone. I think that some people will be surprised with how well it can work, though!
Perhaps some of you can share interesting or fun open-world PvP stories for those who are hesitant about the feature? ^_^"
You're saying "your stance" like as if this was exclusive to me. This is literally the game's vision, and you are arguing with people on what the game should be. This is not just my stance, this is Steven's and the team's stance who are working on the game.
And i would massacre you in Shadowbane lmao, I would massacre your whole guild by myself in BDO.
All i hear from you is you play old dead mmorpgs. I played old ones and then moved onto new ones. PvPing in a dead mmo means nothing years down the line even more so. I played new world at its peak before I stopped like every other mmorpg. Funny thing is new world has had way more players then your mmorpg don't get it twisted bud. Only big mmorpg that was relevant with a ton of players was WoW.
If you read all of my comments you would have seen that I don't want it. I was saying that I don't care if they make them or not...
Some people sound offended that anyone even says they would enjoy a PvE servers, and I'm saying I wouldn't be bothered by it... Because making a separate PvE server that I wouldn't play on isn't going to effect me playing on a PvX servers at all.
So I was trying to figure out why people cared... Most answers were meaningless fluff
If you can't see how Steven would have a truly good reason to deny that suggestion...I don't even know what to say really. That suggestion would be pretty game breaking.
Level 35, un guilded, un noded alts would be in style like never before.
Haha scary scary
Let me take your word on that and say: Thanks God Steven's main inspirations for Ashes is L2 and AA and not Shadowbane and BDO!
Funny thing is A single Lineage 2 server would hold ~5K players back in 2003 and a NW server is barely able to hold 2K in 2021!
Aren't we all sinners?
What do you mean "that makes this kind of system truly required"... the point is fun, and that they have their vision and plans... or is that not something that we should focus on anymore? The team wants this game to have that true MMO feeling where people interact with each other in the open world, and PvP is just as much of a part of that immersive world as PvE. That's why the game is identified as "PvX", and majority of the content will be in open world (even PvE).
I'm surprised this has to be explained, I always assume people know what they are talking about when they engage in conversations such as game design, balance changes, etc. But this is clearly not the case when it comes to some of these people. If you think PvP can be restricted like this without completely undermining like half the systems in the game you are part of the people who are not very familiar with how the game is going work.
Yes, so I ask... why?
At this point, (and note, I AGREE) you're saying 'I would rather that people who would make these types of characters be forced to fight instead even though they don't want to, or leave'.
This is fine. What I want is beyond that. I want them to want to fight. I want them to want to learn to fight. I want Ashes to be the game that teaches some of those players 'PvP is fun'. But let's assume that for right now, nothing is implemented to make that aspect more likely.
From the other side, you're saying something interestingly different by default. "The point of owPvP is to make it so that a level 34 gathering can just be killed whenever in order to maintain some form of economic/power balance."
Again, I agree. But you can probably see why, especially when talking to someone who isn't as interested in this prospect, the only reactions we've managed to come up with, as a community, basically so far, are:
"Ashes might not be for you."
and
"There will be winners and losers."
Most people who come in here asking for PvE are not JUST going 'I don't want to fight', they're scared that the greatest game they've seen proposed in years might die/be super niche because it unapologetically contains a mechanic that is now a strong negative for the dwindling MMO population (and yes I have data for this but it's not massaged because you can't be SURE about everyone, sentiment is a score).
We haven't offered a single actual backing to 'Well try it maybe you'll like it'. Now, that's not on us, we can't do that yet because we haven't seen the combat/escape options. But focusing on what I'm saying here, if you tell people 'You still have to learn to fight in order to defend your node, to defend your guild, to move your goods around', some will go 'I will play but not do any of that' and some will go 'I will learn to do that later when I've become comfortable with the game'.
If our only answer to someone that asks 'Well what if Azherae's gang decides to just murder me while gathering when I haven't made any strong friends yet', is 'Someone will punish them' or 'well you should make friends faster', I see this being about as effective as New World's Alpha.
You don't think there's a massive number of crazy sadists out there who will pay $15 a month (maybe just ONCE even) just to kill newbies and laugh about it? Or are we expecting the newbies to not only run the gauntlet/join late but also become consistent fodder for all those sadists who now have lots of PvP practice?
The only thing protecting the Hardcore PvP MMOs from this sort of thing is that those people are often actually weak players who get bored once they've chased off all their prey and everyone left is an actual fight, then they leave too and the only remaining people are people like us.
The thing I want is for Intrepid to make the game so that only the most PvE person possible even thinks "I'll just stay here at level 34, I don't want to learn to fight." I want everyone else to go 'ok I think I know how to do this, time to level to 36 and give it a try'. If that's not achievable, then I don't have much reason to have faith in the vision of this game anyway.
There's battlegrounds PvP associated with Castle Sieges at least once per week for each of the 5 Castles.
Steven wants Guild Wars to be objective-based, but I would expect Guild Wars to be rare on a "PvE Server". Yes.
I think the "sand" part will still be fairly substantial, but RP and cooperation, working together to progress the world in specific directions, will be more prevalent.
Rather than progressing the world via competitiveness and conflict motivated by a love for PvP combat.
Meaningless fluff? That was my line. The whole conversation is meaningless, especially when you keep focusing on this imaginary scenario that people are offended by pve servers. We just dont want the devs to waste time and money on a side project when there are things like expansions that always need that.
Are you still trying to figure it out?
They are trying to bring back the old mmo designs.
If money and wallets were the concern, an mmo would not be the investment of choice.
Actually a different take on this.
"That suggestion would be pretty game-breaking."
What is 'the game' it is breaking? I will definitely give you gathering, as noted before, this is our strongest argument right now.
What else is it 'breaking'? Because the only thing I see is 'other people are supposed to be able to kill you'. The underlying reason for this is still unclear (again, I'm giving the Gathering point). Why EXACTLY are other people supposed to be able to kill you? Why is that 'the game' other than the fact that 'Steven said so' and 'us PvP-ers want people to fight'?
That number isn't important, it depends on the mass of the land and player expectation to fill it at the end of the day. So depending on the map size and player count would be a better judge. Also player number for live players is irrelevant, all that matters is you win and become the top guild and beat your competition.
Any idea can only become its best self after you've tried any and all ways to counter it and it still stands up as a good idea. The only reason I'm even interested in Ashes is exactly because it has this pvp system across all lvls. But at its core, even L2's system existed just because it did. And I personally loved it. And I know several thousand people that did so as well. But you know what I also know? That millions of people loved when there was no pvp. And if Ashes wants to be successful, it gotta find a way to be appealing to people who might not be as ok with pvp, while not sacrificing the pvp entirely. And knowing/understanding the real root of the pvp design might give us a good clue as to how we can appeal to the pvp-dislikers w/o removing pvp completely.
Just saying "it's there cause I wanted so" doesn't help us, no matter how much I'd love it to.
Do tell!!
Go away. I saw you saying how you "like it when mobs have a leash. It means I can choose when to disengage from pve".
You got nothing of value to say.
If you cant fight off other players from materials or bosses it means that the game will provide progress activities through npc gameplay and dailies, daily vendors daily currencies, instanced gear farming and battlegrounds to "itCh yOur Pvp SCratch".
Not what Ahes plans to be. Why even ask such a question, both you and the other one?
Just because its a good bunch of resources doesn't mean you will be attacked. Mainly based off the consequences, if it was something extremely rare that doesn't spawn often maybe there be a higher chance they attack if they see you. I don't think this will be a common thing mainly because of how often one will be gather resources for, you are taking corruption hits for resources that often all the time. In the end you would just lose far more then gain. Its not a realistic situation.
A more fitting situation would be you see a guild doing something and dec, and the guild dec takes 15 minutes to go through or such. Giving you some leeway and warning.
I think you're almost getting it now, so I'll springboard off you.
We got to 'well people will just have Alts you can't attack'.
But we also have 'The Corruption system will deter attacking'.
Why wouldn't you just make an Alt that is much lower level and go with a friend? The Alt gathers the materials, or holds them. If you the 'rival' kill this low level Alt to get the mats... now you are red. Very red.
There is no situation I can see in which you 'get very red for killing lowbies' to the point where you should think twice about doing it, AND where other people won't use low level Bait Alts to gather with since Artisanship isn't part of level.
I'm taking bets on how long it takes before we see such a character named Karmabomb.
With what skills will the low alt manage to gather high resources? How will the low lv player fight nearby agro mobs? What stops players from killing the low lv alts protective group of decent players? Why would a high lv player be near low lv resources?
You do understand that Artisan skill is completely unrelated to Adventuring level, right?
You can be a level 1 Master Gatherer in this game.
How will a low lv gatherer reach an area with good resources before dying to mobs?
Genuinely sorry here, George, I didn't realize you had jumped in at the spot you did.
The hypothetical, if you care, was 'what if PvP only starts at level 35' (or some arbitrary lower level than that). The problem posed was 'we'll see a bunch of guildless level 35 alts'. Presumably because they could just not be PvPed while doing... something of importance, I assume gathering, but could also just be 'healing someone randomly'.
My point was 'if you are worried about level 35 alts being unattackable, why aren't you worried about level 10 Alts who you don't want to attack because Corruption?'
Just ignore me if you don't care about this.
The protective group can be PKed as I said alrdy in the previous post. Not a good answer.
I am still waiting to see where this new ridiculous scenario of a lv 1 Mastergatherer who can potentially be wealthy, avoiding all pvp in Ashes of Creation is going to go. I am still waiting, since the post that started this new rabbithole of weak arguements for the sake of arguing ("why is it gamebreaking to not be able to attack?")
Honestly its kind of vague on the wiki as to what they mean by progression between leveling class and leveling artisan skills not having a correlation. That being said, having a level 1 character gathering high tier materials efficiently is kind of a laughable concept even if that is possible. According to the wiki, the amount of time it will take to get to that level of artisan skill even as a max level player will take a ton of time and resources, so that would be even more so for a low level alt.
And I will put this here as an easy fix to prevent that... Make both crafting levels, and class levels count towards the amount of corruption a character gives. If they are level 1, but have mastered an artisan skill. Treat them as a max level character in regards to how much corruption they give after being killed. Simple fix.