I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It could still be a valid test.

For example, if someone told you that in Ashes, the Cleric Skill 'Castigation' could be applied to your Tab Target, and you assumed that meant 'it will hit the enemy at any range and behind you' because that's what you thought 'Tab Target' meant, it would take very little time to boot up Alpha-1, attempt to hit something with the skill, realize that it told you 'Target not in Range' and go:

"Oh this is an Action Combat skill, it just lets me use Tab to decide which target within range it is trying to go for."

I think you're trolling Mag a bit too much at this point Though I do get your point, I don't think mag is going that far. I think he just meant that you can hit people w/o having your camera pointed at them, which was the case in L2. The character still had to be in range and turned towards the target, but your camera didn't have to be. And I understand how, from an action player's perspective, that could feel like "cheating".

Even though in my experience it was the opposite, where I had to run towards the camera w/o really knowing exactly where I was going because I always had to look back at my enemy for any cast to dispel or maybe to use the line of vision to prevent them from casting shit. A properly lined up tree right between me and my pursuer saved me many a time.

I promise you and Mag that my intention is not to troll Mag at all.

I admit that sometimes when I'm trying to talk to someone at a specific level it comes off as trolling, but I have also often experienced in life, in fact, more often than not, that if one does not approach it in an extremely condescending way, one finds that they actually do need to relate in the way you're doing, they're just resistant to you being a smug ass about it.

The difficulty is making it clear to them that you're not trying to do that, no matter how much it sounds that way.

Basically, in order for me to be 'trolling' here, I would have to be making the assumption 'There's no way this person believes this thing/hasn't experienced what I'm talking about'.

I find that about 80% of the time, I can't afford to make that assumption.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not going to say what content is more difficult or not, golden age of mmorpgs was during tab target era I'd expect better designed mechanics to be honest. Its something that has kind of fallen off overtime.

Now I obviously dunno where's the chicken and where's the egg, but it seems interesting to me that the rise of more action mmos corelate with the drop in pve quality. Mainly in said action mmos, because WoW's raids have only become more difficult (Asmon likes to complain about that) and FF14's raids have also stayed at high difficulty throughout the years afaik. Just an observation of mine

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm going to go above and beyond right now, since the only eq i played was EQ1. Going to install eq 2 and test some things out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vIBijzg4w

Installed and tested wanted to make sure I wasn't miss understanding. You don't need to look at your target to attack them. You can tab or select a mob have them be behind your camera and it turns around for you as i was saying with swtor.

I'm not trying to be a hater, ive played these games since I was like 11, i know how these games work I've played enough tab target mmorpgs

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

Healing should be 100% tab target. This gets into actual points and strength of the system. There should be no reason why you need to look for your target, you should be able to heal who you want and not all heals should be aoe so it can be better balanced.

Intercepted heals in NWO was kinda fun.
Part of the fun of RPGs are the occasional epic failures when attempting an ability.

Azherae wrote: »

I promise you and Mag that my intention is not to troll Mag at all.

I admit that sometimes when I'm trying to talk to someone at a specific level it comes off as trolling, but I have also often experienced in life, in fact, more often than not, that if one does not approach it in an extremely condescending way, one finds that they actually do need to relate in the way you're doing, they're just resistant to you being a smug ass about it.

The difficulty is making it clear to them that you're not trying to do that, no matter how much it sounds that way.

Basically, in order for me to be 'trolling' here, I would have to be making the assumption 'There's no way this person believes this thing/hasn't experienced what I'm talking about'.

I find that about 80% of the time, I can't afford to make that assumption.

Yeah, I think I get what you're saying. I often try to stop myself from thinking "how da hell is that your thought process?" and try to think more in line of "why would the think so?" And I'm sure I come off as quite condescending often enough too

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not going to say what content is more difficult or not, golden age of mmorpgs was during tab target era I'd expect better designed mechanics to be honest. Its something that has kind of fallen off overtime.

Now I obviously dunno where's the chicken and where's the egg, but it seems interesting to me that the rise of more action mmos corelate with the drop in pve quality. Mainly in said action mmos, because WoW's raids have only become more difficult (Asmon likes to complain about that) and FF14's raids have also stayed at high difficulty throughout the years afaik. Just an observation of mine

Lost ark did pretty well. But sadly most action mmorpgs are from KR which is the actual issue at hand. We have guild wars being hybrid, ESO i believe, lost ark, nwo. Though like most games in recent years greed is over taking passion and creating a good game. This is what makes ashes different then most other games is I don't feel that greed i feel more so the passion. But how their pve content will be I have no clue in terms of difficulty.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm going to go above and beyond right now, since the only eq i played was EQ1. Going to install eq 2 and test some things out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vIBijzg4w

Installed and tested wanted to make sure I wasn't miss understanding. You don't need to look at your target to attack them. You can tab or select a mob have them be behind your camera and it turns around for you as i was saying with swtor.

I'm not trying to be a hater, ive played these games since I was like 11, i know how these games work I've played enough tab target mmorpgs

Great, thanks for clarifying.

I've only ever seen EQ2 played, I haven't played it, so I was counting on what Noaani said.

Just understand that not everyone who plays these 'Tab Target' games has the same experience.

I can't face away from my enemy in FFXI and still strike them with melee. Basically at all. No Weapon Skills. Certain special strike attacks don't work either because they're directly positional.

I can't do it in Neverwinter, Onigiri, or any of those other games where I have a 'Lock On' that centers them on my screen. If I am 'unlocked' from the enemy for any reason, I have to manually face them again.

If anything it's easier in NeverWinter because Rogue has so much AoE, that I can at least 'face away and still hit stuff behind me'. Most Action games I play have huge hitboxes on swings so anyone 'to the side' still gets hit. I have more trouble hitting enemies in MineCraft.

Note before you make any specific notes that I definitely have played less MMOs than you, so I'm deferring to your experience here. I'm just also 'realizing that what you mean when you say Large Scale Action Combat can work, is not as complex as what I would assume that to mean.

Anything further is between you and Noaani, have a good one.

Its cool no notes to say glad we are more at a friendly understanding though haha ^_^. I get my view points like ive said before are strong but that is because this honestly imo is the last hope for a good mmorpg that is not pay 2 win. If this one turned out bad somehow its time to pack up because the mmorpg genre would be dead to me. I want this game to be successful and fun for many many years to come for me and my guild and friends.

In the meantime I'm just hoping throne and liberty comes out this year and isn't too p2w so it can hold me off until AoC releases.

https://youtu.be/FQ9QDoi61hY?t=100

Azherae wrote: »

I can't face away from my enemy in FFXI and still strike them with melee. Basically at all. No Weapon Skills. Certain special strike attacks don't work either because they're directly positional.

I think this is what Mag is talking about. The camera points forwards, the enemy is at the character's back and not in the view of the camera. When the character in the vid uses an ability, the character turns around on its own and hits the enemy w/o requiring you to spin the camera. The timing is 1:40

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I can't face away from my enemy in FFXI and still strike them with melee. Basically at all. No Weapon Skills. Certain special strike attacks don't work either because they're directly positional.

I think this is what Mag is talking about. The camera points forwards, the enemy is at the character's back and not in the view of the camera. When the character in the vid uses an ability, the character turns around on its own and hits the enemy w/o requiring you to spin the camera. The timing is 1:40
https://youtu.be/FQ9QDoi61hY?t=100

Yeah, not an option where I come from.

You can definitely 'be locked on and because you are locked on, walk backward'.

You can 'face away, run away, lock on, and because you locked on, it is easy to turn toward the advancing enemy quickly'.

But your character never turns on their own. The Camera might, like in a Zelda game.

If I face north, and the enemy runs past me to my left chasing someone else, I might strike at them once if they pass close enough. Other than that, nope. I'm going to stay there, facing north, while the Camera and only the camera points toward the enemy.

No autopath to them if they go around a corner or around a ravine either.

A mage could cast behind them, definitely, but conal attacks will fail, Ranged attacks will just not fire off at all until you turn around, etc.

TIL that FFXI is 'Tab Heavy Hybrid Combat' I guess?

I'd have to see, to fully understand. If a skill can be used and is a cone effect in front of you that doesn't rely upon having a target selected that would be action based. That example is what I was saying with swtor. Though it had some small components of action it isn't considered hybrid because the game is still 95% designed as tab target and how most of the combat works. But it shows where the evolution is going, one of the reasons why things were so heavy tab target with mmorpgs is technology limitations.

Azherae wrote: »

TIL that FFXI is 'Tab Heavy Hybrid Combat' I guess?

Yep, quite a lot of "tab games" were just hybrids or became hybrids with updates (L2 was this way). And this is mainly why I say that tab games can do most, if not all, things action games can and more, cause they kinda never were "just tab".

Otr wrote: »

Some people complaied how the caster spell hits every target, even behind and the added an animation to turn him toward the target, for immersion purpose

So wait, now I have a question... what's the range on a spell? Is it just unlimited?

This is a question for @NiKr too. Once the enemy is targeted, are they guaranteed to be hit?

I'm used to being able to just run out of the range of big spells, allowing one to treat them as a 'telegraph' if you did not feel like you could CC the enemy to prevent it. There comes a point where the spell being cast just fails because I got out of range, and depending on the enemy and spell in question, this is just 'a strategy you can use', even in the limited PvP the game provides.

I'm starting to make a lot of potential connections about why people might have called FFXI 'too hardcore'... and quite frankly I'm kind of upset about this...

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

TIL that FFXI is 'Tab Heavy Hybrid Combat' I guess?

Yep, quite a lot of "tab games" were just hybrids or became hybrids with updates (L2 was this way). And this is mainly why I say that tab games can do most, if not all, things action games can and more, cause they kinda never were "just tab".

Right but that means that there's a rather big difference in potential perceptions. When a player says "I hope this game is Tab Target" or "I hope I don't have to aim my abilities", I was previously thinking (not necessarily assuming outright) that they didn't mean 'I just want to press Tab until I see the right name and hit the hotkey".

Because if that's what some people want, they are going to be REALLY disappointed to find out that Ashes might require you to face in the direction of your target, on your own, no less, even for Tab Target skills (I don't know this for any certainty please don't hold me to anything).

It's my fault entirely, but I literally never thought of 'I don't want to have to aim' as 'I don't even want to have to face in the general direction of my enemy, I want the game to do that for me too', but here I am, learning that this may very well be the expectation of people.

Azherae wrote: »

So wait, now I have a question... what's the range on a spell? Is it just unlimited?

In L2 it was ability-dependent. Some had melee range, some had mid range, some had long range. If you were outside of the range and clicked it, your character would automatically turn and run towards your target until it got into range and used the skill.

Iirc, you could break a cast by going behind an obstacle or by going out of range. Though I'm not completely sure about those cause it's been quite a while since I've played and a ton of different servers/game versions had different settings so it's kinda jumbled in my mind.

Azherae wrote: »

It's my fault entirely, but I literally never thought of 'I don't want to have to aim' as 'I don't even want to have to face in the general direction of my enemy, I want the game to do that for me too', but here I am, learning that this may very well be the expectation of people.

Yeah, that definitely might be some people's understanding of the system. But at that point it's on every person to learn what the game is about and how it works, and it's on Intrepid to know what they want to develop and implement feedback accordingly.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

So wait, now I have a question... what's the range on a spell? Is it just unlimited?

In L2 it skill-dependent. Some had melee range, some had mid range, some had long range. If you were outside of the range and clicked it, your character would automatically turn and run towards your target until it got into range and used the skill.

Iirc, you could break a cast by going behind an obstacle or by going out of range. Though I'm not completely sure about those cause it's been quite a while since I've played and a ton of different servers/game versions had different settings so it's kinda jumbled in my mind.

Azherae wrote: »

It's my fault entirely, but I literally never thought of 'I don't want to have to aim' as 'I don't even want to have to face in the general direction of my enemy, I want the game to do that for me too', but here I am, learning that this may very well be the expectation of people.

Yeah, that definitely might be some people's understanding of the system. But at that point it's on every person to learn what the game is about and how it works, and it's on Intrepid to know what they want to develop and implement feedback accordingly.

Well, you said 'break a cast', but let's assume for example that you were just outside of the range of a midrange skill and you clicked it, and your target began to run... does that immediately stop the cast from happening, or will your character 'keep following them until they stop and end up in range and then cast it'?

I suppose you could just as easily 'keep activating it' so that you just keep chasing them, but idk about that either.

I always said that I don't believe in 'Tab vs Action' as a question because it's a spectrum.

I now wholeheartedly renounce this stance and offer apologies to everyone who has been subject to it. I personally consider 'I clicked the button and my character continued to autopath into range until they unleashed the ability' to be outside of that spectrum.

See, I couldn't have come to that conclusion before because I didn't auto-follow.

Doma

this thread again...

Azherae wrote: »

Well, you said 'break a cast', but let's assume for example that you were just outside of the range of a midrange skill and you clicked it, and your target began to run... does that immediately stop the cast from happening, or will your character 'keep following them until they stop and end up in range and then cast it'?

You'd need to break it as they were casting it. I thiiiiink that worked, but really don't take my word for it cause this is the one I'm the least sure about. The wall move definitely prevented the hit from finishing, though again, you'd have to move into cover during the cast.

But if you were already out of range, the attacker would in fact just run after you until they were in range, which, when I think about it, makes me think that running out of range might've not been a thing

I think this mechanic was mainly due to the click-to-move system. Though if other tab target mmos w/o such system had the same mechanic, then it's definitely the most tab feature out there.