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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Are you pledged to pantheon?
But none of that matter because different people have different preferences. I've seen countless people say that WoW's combat is so fluiiiid and so respoooonsive, but to me it felt like utter shite. And I'm sure that a ton of people will puke from playing L2, but I love its controls and how it plays. Preferences.
IF he said any other tab target mmo like AA, WoW, rift anything but he said eq, and eq combat isn't good. You can say mechanics, customizations, etc is good but it doesn't get more static then that. And then says BDO is clunky, its only clunky if you don't know what you are doing and mashing buttons.
I thought swtor has sick gameplay once upon a time but that was many many years ago. Then i played new mmorpgs.
You may be a tab target player but you are good of the good ones i will say, prob cause you are more about the PvP and that pushes you in all games.
What about throne and liberty?
And if I understood rogue's gameplay correctly, it had linked abilities so those might've even been animated together to have more visual cohesion. Though I might be wrong in that assumption. I've played a few of the recent mmos too. Still prefer L2's combat and most definitely its gameplay
I expect all mmorpgs to have some element of p2w now a days, can't really escae from it they all want money. I'll be playing it, i need a game until ashes releases years from now anyway.
I am having trouble grasping how you are able to deny that you are only talking about visuals in games and yet be so insistent on using visuals to back up your point, and also insist that others do the same.
You are talking about how the game looks, I am talking about how it plays.
If I want so watch something fluid, I'll go down to a river.
I know a lot of younger gamers (under 20) that are gravitating towards older games - in many cases games that are older than they are.
Exclusively tab games haven't been made for a while because action was the new cool thing. As with all of these things, the older systems will come back in one way or another - they always do.
relatively bold claim but dont forget that part of the reason for tab target games (especially for MMO sized player bases) was due to technological hurdles from not only the development side of things, but the consumers as well. Yes, action combat can be more demanding on the netcode as one example but dont forget about the additional coding in relation to physics of not only the players actions but projectiles and environment. They more than likely wouldn't have been able to handle action combat when DAOC, SWG, and WoW were in development especially for an MMO player base size. There have always been lots of more action combat style games but due to the limitations at the time, they were not as capable as they are today with how fast technology from hardware and software have evolved and become readily available.
One of the main reasons for tab target being so popular was due to technology hurdles within the industry and consumers but that doesn't mean it's not a good system. With advancements over the years, even wow has modified its combat into hybrid but still heavily favouring tab targeting.
I'd say over the last decade we've only been able to handle the demand for better physics in our games. But keeping in mind, not all games are coded equally for both engine capabilities, game design and server data packet handling between all the shards and things a-like.
Is TT inferior? no, it's a different way to do similar things with some compromise but it was a middle ground to allow for the higher player base style game to become feasible at the time with technological allowances. It's quite literally the reason why it was designed for its time and game design.
Now, all of a sudden, turn based strategy is back, in a big way - and not just among gamers that were around for its first wave.
It took a decade for turn based strategy games to really make a comeback, development of MMO's is slower than any other genre, but the last full tab target game released (by my reckoning) was Rift in 2011.
true! the golden age of RTS
The industry continuously evolves building off of older trends and designs. One example could be mudds and rpg's/adventure games, every genre has it's history such as how MOBA's became popular from RTS even though it was just a custom map but there also hasn't been many people trying to push the industry for RTS either. The trends jumped around from Age of empires, Command and Conquers, Warcrafts, Starcrafts etc.
It's highly unlikely you find an extreme TT system in the MMORPG market these days as even they're are starting to incorporate AC elements into them regardless of where they land the scale. It's not dying per se but slowly transitioning which is why the Hybrid systems work so well now for the current time. If i cast a spell that launched skywards and auto targets friendly players to rain down healing projectiles/VFX then that in a way could still be considered an AC with tracking. But similarly, the arguement would fall back to if that ability required you to have a target initially (cool idea for a healing ability btw).
The ability system is where the true potential come to fruition for both systems. I believe they'll do a fair balance in the ability system for those want to use TT over AC.
Examples using spells:
Beam = probably just goes straight to targets current location, minimal tracking, could be dodged
projectile = could go straight, could have tracking to target, could be dodged
falling stars = could require initial target to arch towards, commence star fall, potential for dodge depending on tracking intensity.
Similarly with arrows
could be aimed relatively to target with weak tracking and range
ability trajectory plays a big roll in how it all functions as well before we get into physics and collision
Then we get into spell speeds from A to B or wherever they go and how easily they can be dodged and compensated for tracking allowance with hitbox interactions.
anyways, kind of went on a tangent there, lol
I'm sorry but having my character locked in place doesn't represent fluid to me. Archeage had combos as well, and a lot of abilities also locked you in place. I wouldn't say it had fluid combat either.
GW2 on the other hand does have a fluid combat, but the issue with that game is the lack of impact and weight. Visual and sound feedback are lacking, and overall it can feel floaty (nowhere near the level of ESO though).
If AoC just combined the good things from other games (like they seem to be doing), we could have something similar to GW2s combat, but with more weight behind the abilities, and different combos like in Archeage, BDO, or whatever game. So far it looks like they're going in that direction, and I'm optimistic about how all of it will turn out.
Disagreed. Tab targeting is generally unique to MMOs, and I don't see why should MMOs get rid of it. Other games simply don't play like MMORPGs.
It absolutely can be. The issue is almost everyone who comes in here attacking tab-targeting and defending/praising action combat doesn't take this into consideration. Instead they generalize, and say all tab-targeting is boring, not fluid, etc. etc.
I absolutely agree with what Noaani has said in the reply.
But it's not true.
Absolutely agreed. Now apply this to yourself.
I can agree that EQ2s combat doesn't look good, but that's because the game is 20 years old. That also doesn't mean it doesn't feel good to play or that it's not fluid.
A combat looking good and feeling good just seems so personal and subjective its hard to properly measure it, some people like huge flashy animations, others like tamed animations, some like fast paced combat, others like slow paced, i for example, after 20 years still love how Lineage 2 combat looks and feels even though i'm more fond of action oriented combat nowadays.
Aren't we all sinners?
You could fall into a coma in-between sword swings and age 100 years by the end of any battle.
Piano play is not fluid combat....again you are reaching. Fluid combat is when you are actually involved in the combat using your weapon and moving with your own controls. When you swing your sword and feel how the feedback is given, is your next attack after smooth and follow through with your last attack.
If you are doing combat and swing your sword and had a 1 second delay after attacking a it would feel choppy and not smooth. So for example if you applied global cooldown to action combat with the delay you wouldn't feel like its fluid at all, no mix between attacks with how your controls respond to you.
You keep talking about visuals...that is TAB target not action combat holy hell. How can you not understand the basic principle of action and tab combat it's actually insane. In action your moving Dodges attacks, meaning if you use a ability or dodge that physically moves you back their aim on their skill needs to either adjust for your movement or your movement will dodge their skill because physically their sword or arrow are not hitting you. It takes into account world space into the combat with your hitbox. If you use a range skill on tab target the arrow automatically hits the target, if you use a melee skill in range the damage will go off even if they are in mid dodge because you were at a range that you could have attacked them and its not about your weapon swing.
You are purposely being ignorant and ignoring fundamental mechanics and then saying EQ2 gameplay looks fluid when its slow, rough and had nothing to do with being fluid. Fluid is when you do a move that pushing your character forward hitting something, you can dodge to the side without a delay as the moves flow together well, into an attack that can launch them in the air and then doing another move after. Without being bound to global cooldown and the moves being able to tie together well.
Fluid is NOT EQ2 cast spell, sit for global cooldown, cast another spell while moving back, buff since its not effected by global cooldown, and then cast another spell.....
Why don't you pick up pantheon then? Obviously its more work to implement action combat in a game, to make it feel right and work right. The same way its more work to do action combat over a turn based combat.
So your mind set is you are worried about them running out of money and not being able to make the game, because of more work being required to make a better system?
Uhhh, you definitely seem to be confusing "fluid" with something else like weight, feedback and impact.
????
I'm just gonna say this again. Being locked into abilities, that often move your character around, isn't fluid to me. Yes, doing different combos and switching from one ability to another can feel fluid in action combat games, but that's also the case for tab-targeting games. Also, it just looks like spammy ADHD infused mess.
With tab-targeting it also depends on the game, as a lot of them aren't fluid either. Global cooldowns can ruin the feeling of fluidness if they're too long.
I'm looking at BDO as an example here, as it's praised for having some of the best combat in any MMORPG. Most of the abilities have animation locks, you are basically immobilized while you are channeling/casting your ability. It's like a sped up power-point presentation. It looks all nice and flashy, but that's about it for me. Just by looking at Tera's combat, I'd say it's better than BDO, by a large margin.
When I look at the gameplay of most action combat MMORPGs, they just don't feel like MMORPGs to me. It's like a completely different genre of MMOs.
With tab-targeting games, I can usually tell classes apart, each of them will have a well defined theme and playstyle, where in action combat games it's less rigid and every class is way too flashy, slashing and dashing across the entire screen, blowing stuff up.
There already are so many action-combat MMOs out there released in the last few years. There aren't that many tab-targeting MMOs released recently. Like I've said, people judge tab-targeting based on 10+ year old games. There has been little innovation with tab-targeting, besides hybrid combat systems like GW2, or even Archeage that kinda improved upon the classic tab-targeting by introducing combos.
I'm glad AoC is going the hybrid/more tab-target based route, as its the natural evolution to classic tab-targeting, without the whole mess of action combat. I'm gonna use a similar comment that I've seen previously in this thread, "If you don't like tab-targeting then this game might not be for you".
The only innovation now is to become more like action combat by either introducing action combat features, by becoming an hybrid combat, or by straight up becoming action combat itself.
well, im glad it is going hybrid/more action based
You don't understand combat....What do you think fluid means.
You also don't understand bdo combat, we could easily go over all the classes and moves. If you don't understand the game and don't play it enough to learn it on a move advanced level and are button mashing you are not playing it properly.
If you can't tell BDO classes apart you have not played the game at all, so why are you talking about bdo if you don't understand it when people are telling you that is not the case? Clearly the people that have played the game on a higher level would know better.
1. If its clunky to you, you never played the game to learn it
2. You can clearly see in videos people can move and attack, they have movements with their attacks and are not standing still all day. Which can also vary class to class.
Spamming jump and kiting while all your skills land on people without really needing to aim isn't good combat. Good combat is action oriented and the directions mmorpgs have been going towards since the early ages. It is exactly why you don't see click to move as being a big thing compared to ages ago.
Yes modern games are more flashy with effects then older mmorpgs, why is this even a point? Have you even seen the effects in AoC on alpha alone in large fights?
I hear more complains on tab target players wanting to remove action elements so they don't need to deal with the learning curve than I hear action players saying remove tab target.....If you don't like action combat this mmorpg might not be for you....
Tab target have been trying to be more like action games with more movements and types of skills or trying to fake elements for years. That is the direction, its mainly older types that played older mmorpgs not wanting to embrace the change. And I've played the old mmorpgs back to shadowbane and eq when I was a kid.
Instead you have these random few post of people wanting to clip action combat and them not realizing how many people like that kind of combat.
Sigh...I actually thought about making a response to each of your arguments, but there's no point in wasting my time. It's obvious that there's no point in me trying to explain anything here. You can make up any argument you want, but that's not going to change my mind. Just like how I can argue my points but I wont change your mind.
I know I prefer one type over the other, just like one man might prefer blondes and the other might prefer brunettes. It's personal preference, and one might not necessarily be better than another, it all depends on other things as well, not just the color of the hair itself.
I really don't understand why you are trying to argue with people for 17 pages straight other than to troll, the game is going to be HYBRID combat, not action, and probably it's gonna lean more on tab-targeting side than action combat with a lot of stuff, so again...
Action-combat = bad, Tab-targeting = bad
There we go.
You are missing the actual context of the conversation what is being talked about.... Action combat can do large scale raid encounters that is not exclusive to tab target mechanics and all and about how it is designed....