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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
*edit
another video to drive the point home
Mag is lying to nearly everyone in this conversation.
BDO PvP, proper PvP, is no more about 'aim' than mid level Street Fighter, on half the classes.
What is happening here is the same sort of situation that comes up quite often. A relatively average skill player is making arguments based on how they think something works rather than how it actually works, which is why we ended up back at the 'everyday players' discussion.
It may be true that the skill floor of usual Action Combat is higher than the skill floor of Tab Combat, but once you begin to talk about skill ceiling even in PvP, they are either equal or, oddly, Action Combat skill ceiling is lower, at least in BDO.
This is why I look forward to Ashes, but I am now convinced that Mag is not just 'misinformed', but is actively being misleading in order to somehow 'not lose this argument'.
But don't take my word for it, you can count the Decisions Per Minute here yourself. Timestamp 5:10:00.
I count 23-25 DPM, of which 7 are actually aiming.
Kunoichi is my main class.
The fight is cool. 25 DPM is a nice number for some. Maybe not for all. I enjoyed it for what it was.
You've said that BDO has up to 40 skills, but how many of those are really utilized in any given fight. From the few vids I've watch it looked like it was the same 5-10 skills at most, if not even less. While in EQ2 vids I usually see at least 10 used, with usually even close and ranged weapons being utilized depending on the movement of both sides of the conflict. So, to me, it seems that the decision making per tick of combat is higher in EQ2 than in BDO, which could lead to the game feeling faster because your brain is working in overdrive.
In BDO you mainly think about your position in relation to your enemy, direction of your character and direction of your abilities (cause most of them are direction-based afaik). In EQ2 you think about positioning (otherwise it'd be more beneficial to just stand in one place, yet they don't), you think about range between you and the enemy (which is tied into weapon choice), you think about your rotation on top of weapon changes, you think about what your opponent might use (from everything that I've seen from BDO it looks like most people just react to abilities rather than predict them, but I might be wrong) - and that's just in pvp, while I'm pretty sure EQ2's pve is more complex so I'd assume it requires an even more intricate thought process. Dunno who's saying that someone else's game is shit. I think Noaani have stated multiple times that BDO is good in particular matchups and for particular mechanics, just not as good for others. As for combat explanations and all that stuff, I'd assume it mainly comes down to just "rams butting heads w/o giving in". The main reason we're still on this absolutely pointless topic is that neither side will give into the other side's arguments (be it justified or not) so both sides just keep squabbling. And you're so deep into that squabble that there's no real way of getting out of it at this point.
Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.
Also, this whole '40 skills' is also misleading, whether on purpose or not, in the same way it would be misleading to give someone a character in Street Fighter and tell them 'Choose from 50 different unique moves!'
I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.
Based on this comment you play BDO but you must not pvp that much you seem very inexperienced in some of your comments. So its either you are bad at pvp or you are just being bias, right now I'm going to think it is you lack experience with the game. If you want to prove me wrong though like I've said before I have friends that still play the game we can get you to jump in battle arena. I'd hoped you would prove it to be the bias though because this take is really bad.
So lets break this down.
DPM -
I'm just going to assume you are trying to stretch this to skew your point as there is clear bias or just actual inexperience. Between the start upon leaving the gate before screen flips to the other character they did well over 35 skills in that time period. That is plenty for that fight of fight as it is more cat and mouse with one trying to get the first cc and them playing a bit more on the safe side. If you are going to play further distance you won't be attacking as much as they are both trying to fish for a CC. Hence leading to less inputs then being in the thick of a battle.
*please make sure you count all actions dodges / multiple attacks /flows /buffs/ etc.
Aiming skills -
You are trying to say because a move is aoe you don't need to aim or it requires a lower amount of aim. Aim is still aim at the end of the day you aren't hitting them if your attack is not going towards them or you are not in range of them. You can't compare that to tab target in EQ2 where aiming is not required to land your hits.
Skill ceiling -
Let me see your actual pvp skills then e can have a discussion on skill ceiling, I don't think you are quite there yet to be getting into this kind of discussion on what is the max in BDO. What guild are you in, do you do siege, do you do node war? Are you willing to jump into battle arena?
And even in the last video that mag posted, I don't see any precision aiming as I would've imagined it to be for peak action fighting. It's mainly general direction and 30-40 degree conal aoe or a pointed 3-4m diameter aoe. To me that ain't fucking aiming. I know that my example of pixel hunting has been dismissed before, but catching a few-pixel-wide fast-moving character seems way more difficult than aiming in a general direction. Eh, to me this is just casual discussion based purely on self-reported feelings of gameplay, from all sides. People tend to overexaggerate their experiences so I try to account for that and build a rough estimate of what the "truth" is. Obviously videos don't show it. And w/o putting in hundreds of hours in either of the games, I wouldn't know how those games truly feel.
But I definitely appreciate your input on this. Especially knowing that you're trying to ignore mag's posts (considering that's like 40% of combat threads
Specific to EQ2...
You use your mouse for both character direction and camera direction. Between these two, the mouse is already fully engaged. You often use the mouse to run as well, not just to determine direction. The only movement action that isn't generally done on the mouse is strafing.
Further to that, if you are clicking abilities, you are not able to click them as fast as you need to. Even if you are focused 100% on your hot bar, when you get to the top end of the game, you simply can't maintain the pace that you need to maintain.
Even further to this, there are some encounters in which you NEED to use your mouse to mouse over detrimental effects in order to see which effect is applied. The developers specifically developed content in this manner, so that you NEED to identify two different effects, both of which were given the same icon. If you cleanse the wrong effect - even once - the raid wipes.
If you are a mouse clicker, you simply don't have time to identify the detriment and then cleanse it.
Honestly, I haven't come across a mouse clicker in an MMO in YEARS. Actual years. The last one I saw was probably around 2008. Your suggestion that 90% of players are mouse clickers just seems outright wrong from my perspective. But hey, since action games require less actual actions from players, maybe it's feasible in those games - so I'm not saying you're incorrect here, just that you are pointing out how much less actual action there is in an action game over a tab game.
This is the cast bar.
It is essentially a visual representation of the time an actions animation has to run. Basically, the ability is activated, the animation starts, and the cast bar is a representation of how long the animation has left to run.
Also, "animation canceling" is a thing. All you need to do is press Esc.
This just shows why I said a while ago that videos of games you do not understand are of no real purpose - as you do not understand it. You are looking at one mechanic and just assuming it is a different mechanic - which no real idea what either mechanics even are. It would take dozens of posts to explain the basics of that video to you, and I really can't be bothered with that.
Even given this, it seems to have reached a point of egregiousness that maybe I don't have the same level of tolerance for.
I do have some parallel experiences from fighting games, of course, the sort of person who looks at a playstyle and goes 'That's the wrong way to play that character' or 'you should use X move more' on a YouTube video, then gets flamed to hell because the video is from one of the top 10 players in the world of said character.
Which is followed by the usual response of 'Bro I don't care if you're top in the world you play this character wrong I could beat you easy' (even when the video is not posted by the actual player, as is now common).
It really isn't relevant whether or not these people actually believe what they are saying, I personally find it important that the uninitiated do not believe what they are saying.
Similarly, even I were to claim, right now, that I AM the player in that video, or a friend of theirs, the response would be equally backward, I'd expect. Because if it were not, it would mean the speaker would have to cease based on it.
They never do. They just double down. The reason is pretty normal. Mag THINKS that these things are impressive or difficult or require lots of practice, for others. Mag also thinks that anyone who disagrees must be worse or less knowledgeable at whatever or they wouldn't hold the same opinion.
Before I wasn't sure that I was more knowledgeable than Mag is. Now I'm sure. And it's not even that I hold a different opinion than Mag does about BDO (though Mag seems to need it to be so). It's that I know better than to hold a lesser opinion of other similar games based on their Targeting system.
Mag is the sort of person who 'does not believe in Xiaohai', a player who once entered a serious tournament for a game considered to have great depth, learned to play the game that day, and won the tournament based on fundamental skills accumulated from other games.
I merely offer my perspective because it's so textbook, I guess.
Skills depend on the class, some skills are useless and are locked like every mmorpg. Some skills have multiple attacks to them so one skill could actually be 3 attacks with holding button inputs and such for that skills.
As far as knowing what is used, you might have a hard time telling in bdo because the flow of the combat is really fluid and things might look like one attack but for every moment its another attack (again it depends on the skill, the kuno attack where the teleport everywhere while standing is one skill. But they have other moves where they teleport and such as well that might blend in). He could definitely count the moves I think that would be the most logical way for that case between both games. But with BDO you have to count all attacks, dodges, etc and then there are animation cancels as well which can make it seem like less skills are being used with certain ones being partly skipped
IT depends on the level of skill you are on bdo, if you are higehr tier you are predicting what moves they are going to use, akin to a fighting. You need to take advantage of the gaps in their super armor and i frames so you can kill them.
The video Azherae posted is the most ratty pvp you will see on bdo as its 1v1 and they both don't want to get cc'd or get one combed they aren't going to fully commit and it depends as well on classes. I'd look more so for good pvp where someone is fighting multiple people at the same time it will give a better representations.
With the aoe skills again its there to make it easier but it is 100% still aiming. Some classes don't require it as much but compared to tab target in the clips shown with EQ2 it is night and day. If you play some high end pvp you would see as people will get behind you and your aoes. Your skills will miss with their movements as well if you play it you will understand with pvp.
You are literarily not more knowledgeable then me lmao you are just stubborn and have a bias against me. The fact that the conversation is I have a aoe so its not targeting but in tab target it always hits is honestly insane. If I still played BDO like I use to I'd gladly pvp you with this knowledge you keep talking about. But I sure i could find some good pvpers to see if you can actually back up your words.
Oh? Well good thing this is a top NA championship tournament that the game makers themselves have been promoting ingame for weeks now or man, I'd be worried that I chose a terrible video that people couldn't just go to 4:20:00 of instead for a look at the exact thing you claim.
Also this is partially more 'lies', as Succession Kunoichi I can tell you that the number of skills used in that time compared to Ashes is about the same or less.
I think Mag counts things like Ghost Step (directional evasion like that seen in the Combat video recently) and Ghost Greeting (forward moving slash) as 'skills', which isn't wrong per se...
But yeah, no. I'll wait while you dig up and replant your goalposts again.
Yeah fine...
I really hate that they're this...
When I say 100% possible I mean you can move with WASD and use an ability at the same time with que to hit your target since you don't need to aim, the game will aim for you and attack the target. Not saying you are going to do it fast or as well, that is why i said not as efficiently.
I'm, not talking about pve or what is required for that, im talking about pvp as well. I'm not going to argue about pve content as it doesn't exist in bdo imo as it is just grinding so there isn't any point talking about that.
Nice slight there on action games, not really needed in the convo but I guess we can both start going there. In every EQ2 video I've posted all them have been clicking spells, I'm guessing you were living in a bubble and your knowledge on your own community must be lack luster. K now we can stop with the underhanded comments and just talk about facts with a little less bias hopefully...
I'm well aware you can stop a tab target animation that doesn't make you use skills any faster though just stops your skills so I don't understand why you are bringing up that point like its something to write home about. When I talk about animation cancelling in bdo you can cancel the attack side of the animation and have the movement aspect (though you can use it to get out of animations you are stuck in early as well). Which means there is a larger difference between your version of animation cancelling and the one I'm talking about as mine as a impact on gameplay.
I'm sure there's a few debuffs/buffs in there that might add a semi-tree here in there, but not much on top of that. In L2, I'd have a 4-branched choice literally in the first second of the fight. EQ2's pvp might be a bit more simplistic just because it's not a pvp-main game, but I'd assume it's high lvl pve has quite a few branches too.
Now that's not to say that BDO can't be or isn't complex, but when most of your decisions are "what direction to use with the next attack", I feel like it brings down the overall DPM by a fair bit. I might be wrong in that assumption though.
If you are using succession you have less skills you have access to. Succession was especially mobileish BDO and meant to be easier to play. Almost all successions are brain dead compared to awakening as awakening is more technical. Same reason why i prepared it with Dark knight and guardian.
I count every attack, skill throw, dodge, buff, etc. Same way you would count every move in a tab target game, buff, etc. All of that is kind of important in a fight in BDO that is why its disingenuous to not be counting them as you would be dead and there would be no fight lol.
The tournament is rat fights most the time it is one of the worst parts about BDO combat. It doesn't feel like a actual fight it makes me want to throw up. I'd turn it off and go play soul calibur.
Yeah but that was something that nearly anyone ELSE you would have talked to, would tell you, without much need for any of this.
It's just sad because I just realized that Mag had the predicted response IN the reply to the post that predicted the response.
At this point I kinda feel like I'm being a bully so I'll stop, I gotta work on not having this response to these sorts of people both in games and in conversations. I guess my Ranked Matches today got me into the mindset of 'oh I actually have to walk you to the corner'.
But this ain't that, so... Anyone trying to wade through this, accept my offering of the Tuvala Cup, may it bring you... whatever it is this 'conversation' can bring.
Again, this is why we all mock mouse clickers, and why we are able to spot them a mile out.
You seem to put a lot of focus on action games requiring aiming, and seem to forget that in them requiring this, they specifically do not require other things that a tab target game can require - such as much more specific and deliberate movement, or the need to always be looking at a specific thing (which may or may not be stationary).
Again, in an action game, you don't need to control your camera as a separate entity from your character. In a tab target game, you often do. Honestly, having to look at something in one direction while moving towards something that is at a 120 degree angle from where you need to be looking, all while attacking something that is another 120 degrees around from that point is much harder than just having to look and aim at the same thing. If you remember, I have specifically told you outright that top end players in EQ2 simply do not post videos. I've even given you the reason as to why this is the case.
With very few exceptions, any video you will find of gameplay in EQ2 are from actual scrubs. For future reference, if you inexplicably decide to post another video from EQ2, at least look to make sure they are not mouse clickers first. This is an animation canceling thread. That is why I mentioned it.
Honestly, at this point, you should probably be more concerned with the fact you seem to not recognize a basic cast bar in an MMO - a feature of literally every tab target game I have ever played.
You claim to have played tab target games in the past, yet dont recognize a cast bar. This is about the same as someone that says the play heaps FPS games being shocked at having WASD as the default movement keys.
Honestly, your ineptitude is on display at that level here.
@Azherae You willing to jump into battle arena?
+ other threads.
Yes because someone won't show videos of different combat because it doesn't exist.
Back in "my day", gamers weren't empty shells.of people that needed recognition from others in order to be able to enjoy playing a game.
Without that constant, deep-seated need for recognition, there really wasnt any point in recording gameplay, let alone sharing it.
What is weird isnt that people playing games in the past didnt record and share it, the weird thing is that people now put a greater focus on that than on playing the game.
Although, to be fair to you and your generation, action games aren't generally fun enough in their own right. If you are playing one, you probably have a lot of down time at your computer where you just dont want to play the game at all, and so may as well edit a video or something. Since most action games are all about the look rather than the gameplay, this kind of aligns up nicely.
Now, as to why I am not going to log in to EQ2 to record a video to attempt to show you anything - if you cant understand from having things explained to you, you will not understand from looking at a video that makes ko sense to you.
Keep in mind, you just recently mistook a cast bar for some aspect of a GCD. Add that to other things you have got wrong about tab target games and it is just blatant you dont have the base level knowledge of the genre to be able to gain anything useful from a video.
Back then there wasn't good platforms and now they exist, people always look for recognition doesn't mean it needs to be through a video record, but in modern times people do that to share cool moments so they aren't forgotten, to teach, etc.
Actions games a lot more fun then anything EQ2 is doing, that is exactly way that game is dead in the water, and couldn't hold a handle to WoW. Only point you can argue is there are no videos because the game isnt good enough to keep a audience when they can play a better game WoW.
Cast bar and GWC have the same function to me doesn't really matter, both are there to stop you from spamming your skills as the animations don't matter in EQ2. You can spin it however you want and its fine, end of the day that is the truth of the matter as tab works differently than action as the animation matters as you need to hit your target.
You aren't jumping on EQ2 because it is a dead mmorpg that plays as old and terrible as it is and you can't show what you are talking about nor explain as you continue to avoid doing so. Else you would have brought clips, and talked exactly what other skills you can use and how you can get more button inputs in. So we can't even get to part two on speed since we are stuck on button inputs with EQ2 just being slower. Bad or dead mmorpgs should not be used as reference for bench mark on combat for what people want clearly it isn't' eq2.
That is just 7 of the action combat MMO's that began development after EQ2 was released, and are no longer available to play (some of them never even made it out of beta testing). The list could be much, much longer, but I am just going off the top of my head here.
If you want to say that EQ2 isnt for you, not only is that fine but I will actually agree.
What you cant say, based on the above, is that action games are more fun. If they were more fun as a blanket statement, some of those games would still be live (Tera and Wildstar being my picks), and EQ2 would not.
The fact that EQ2 outlived all of the above action games means it is a better game, objectively. Just to be clear here, we are having a discussion about action and tab games, and you are saying that not only do you not know the basic mechanics of tab target games, but you actually dont even want to know?
I mean, you are literally ignoring objective facts here to attempt to cover over your lack of knowledge on so.ething you have been proven to know little about. You dont get to just have an opinion on objective facts and expect everyone to just go with it. Objective facts are just that - objective. People that *ignore* objective facts and replace them with their own opinion are - by definition - *ignorant*.
Sure, in middle school you may have gotten away with just saying "this is my opinion and you cant challenge my opinion", but that doesnt work here. Your opinion here is just wrong, objectively.
In the same way older generations let my generation down in regards to the economy, it seems my generation let yours down in terms of education.
Fact is, cast bars and GCD both have specific functions they form. If you want to know keep, do what I did - go and as ok someone that developed the combat system for a tab target MMO. Or talk to someone involved in determining if an existing MMO could have its GCD reduced.
Or, learns little critical thinking, understand the sumystems at play, and then the above two discussions will simply serve to confirm the theory you already had about them, which is what those two conversations I had many years ago did.
Now, if you want to talk about opinion in relation to GCD, we could talk about whether we think they are needed in a current tab target MMO (in my opinion, if the game has an ability queue, they are not). How3ver, the function they are designed to provide is simply not a matter of opinion. Actually, as I have said, animation doesnt matter in an action game. The underlying systems of it are still hit box based, and the animation is just there to give a visual representation of that hit box. Every game will have a mob or weapon where the hitbox doesnt quite line up properly, resulting in either the animation appearing to hit but not, or in the animation appearing to miss but actually hitting.
I saw it a.few times in lower level mobs in BDO, but didnt think much of it (and still dont) as every game has this.
Fact is (and this one is an actual fact), animations in action games are no more or less important than I tab target games. Both games use a hitbox system to determine if an attack is in range or not. Keep in mind, we have long since established that you do not possess the base level understanding of tab target games to he able to gain any information at all from a video.
Other than not feeling any need to do so (nor even having software on my computer right now to record gameplay - because I am not an attention starved child), the above is the reason I am not posting any video of EQ2 gameplay.
Why would I waste time trying to educate you, when you have shown a great willingness in regards to not wanting to learn?
If you want people to spend their time educating you, you at least need to make it seem as if you want to learn. You clearly do not.
Only thing we established is that you don't know anything about action combat, my knowledge on mmors being action and tab are more so than your own. You can keep trying to stretch fact or twist things to try and be like go tab has bit boxes to not anyone will understand the difference that is being talked about between a skill hitting a target and EASY mode tab target automatically hitting a target. You are actually out here trying to talk about skill and pvp when you can kite back, not look at your target and just spam shots on EQ2 which sounds like the utter most boring pvp you could do involving 0 skill.
You can't record anything to prove your point, nor actually look at other games with a open mind that we have established. All you can do is argue and say very stupid things like animations don't effect animation combat. All you can say is no one on EQ clicks their skills yet in every single video I've seen people clicking their skills, it shows you view point is so skewed you think everyone plays elite EQ memorizing 40 keybinds and their timing. When you can bring evidence in video, and explain things point by point and have a proper discussion we can get somewhere.
The fact you think EQ2 is still alive is a joke, it is dead like all the other games, the fact EQ1 has more people is even more sad tbh. Should older action combat games that have shut down be looked at, are they the bench mark no. Is EQ2 a bench mark for a good game for combat....hell no its terrible.
Don't worry though you have pantheon online the spiritual successor to EQ and will have plenty of focused boss encounters and PvE for you. When you want to learn some real combat yet me up and I can see how you do on BDO, it should be easy for you since you think its slower then EQ2 lmao.
Haha never played it. Heard it was really good though.
But wait, I never played it. Therefore it must blow.
The joke here is you thinking Steam players are an accurate metric for a game that has never pushed Steam as a sales avenue, and are putting it, amusingly, against a game that has (EQ). Actually, Ashes is closer to a successor to EQ/EQ2, as many of Intrepids core staff worked on either or both of those games.
Intrepid has no developers on staff that worked on BDO.
As to your comment that I dont look at other games with an open mind, this is just untrue. While I had a reasonable understanding of the game, my discussions 2with NiKr on these forums has led me to appreciate specific aspects of that game more (even if my main issue with the game holds true).
The fact is, you haven't put forward any arguments in regards to BDO, and have said nothing about the game at all that i do not already know.
All you know about EQ2 is what a few people have shown in videos. You have no reason to assume the videos are of competent players, yet you seem to just assume they are. I have no idea why this is, but you are going to some great lengths to maintain this assumption.
Based
Aren't we all sinners?