Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

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JamesSunderland wrote: »

I can't speak for EQ2 tho, but the clip you used the guy clicks alot in the skills in his hotbar instead of using the hotkeys, and i don't know if EQ2 also has methods of speeding up skills to that extent like L2, we might have to ask Noaani

Yeah, the video in question is an old clip of someone in old content (even for the time), that isn't being challenged, nor even paying attention.

Okeydoke

I would like to propose the compromise between all parties that both those games, EQ2 and Black Desert blow GIGA ASS LOL GET REKT.

Going back to Divinity 2 dont @ me bro

Mag7spy

Old content and old clip doesn't mean he isn't trying to kill the person in PvP, what reasons do you have that he is not paying attention during that fight? What reasons is he not being challenged in the fight? How based on those reasons does your combat become faster with more inputs during the skill bar times?

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

So what he clicks it with a mouse that is most people

People that activate abilities by clicking them with their mouse are literally a meme.

Being called a mouse clicker in EQ2 was the same as being called a neckbeard, or a mouth breather.

In my many years of playing EQ2, I never once saw anyone kicked out of a group based on a combat tracker, but I did see many people kicked out of groups because they were clicking rather than using hotkeys.

In a game like EQ2, it is VERY obvious if you are clicking, it shows in your performance on both the combat parse, but also in regards to encounter mechanics (you simply will not be able to complete content if you click - as it means you are focusing your attention on the hot bar rather than the content).

If you think that most people click with a mouse, this leads me to believe that YOU click with a mouse. As such, the above all applies to you.

I mean, we already established weeks ago that you are bad at tab target games - I just had no idea you were a mouse clicker.

JamesSunderland

Okeydoke wrote: »

I would like to propose the compromise between all parties that both those games, EQ2 and Black Desert blow GIGA ASS LOL GET REKT.

Going back to Divinity 2 dont @ me bro

Imma @Okeydoke you bro, you forgot L2

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

You not needing to look at your bar doesn't really make combat magically work different im sorry. You can believe not looking at your bar changes how fast abilities can be used suddenly but that isn't the case. How do you know the person playing isn't using hot keys, clicking and moving at the same time? If he is or isn't doesn't really change anything though, you don't look at keys when you are playing BDO as well.

Yeah, I wouldn't know how exactly not looking at the bar or clicking it influences the flow of your combat because I haven't played EQ2 extensively. But Noaani has and says that the combat is fast and requires a ton of actions.

And I can draw a parallel between that information and my own experience of "I know for sure that the videos that I could post do not represent the gameplay that I experienced", so why couldn't it be the same for EQ2.

And I can even look at BDO videos and see just a few dodges here and there with way more "just standing and unloading skills onto a target until it dies (usually a few seconds at most)", which in comparison to other presented "gameplay difficulty" doesn't quite match. So my assumption would be "the videos don't represent how the game plays, because I see 2 people saying that BDO's combat requires a ton of inputs, while videos don't really show that to me".

And at this point you'd say "just trust the people who have played the game way more than you", except you'd be megahypocritical in saying that because you never trust Noaani's word and just like to say "I can see all that I need to see in the videos".

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

So what he clicks it with a mouse that is most people

People that activate abilities by clicking them with their mouse are literally a meme.

Being called a mouse clicker in EQ2 was the same as being called a neckbeard, or a mouth breather.

In my many years of playing EQ2, I never once saw anyone kicked out of a group based on a combat tracker, but I did see many people kicked out of groups because they were clicking rather than using hotkeys.

In a game like EQ2, it is VERY obvious if you are clicking, it shows in your performance on both the combat parse, but also in regards to encounter mechanics (you simply will not be able to complete content if you click - as it means you are focusing your attention on the hot bar rather than the content).

If you think that most people click with a mouse, this leads me to believe that YOU click with a mouse. As such, the above all applies to you.

I mean, we already established weeks ago that you are bad at tab target games - I just had no idea you were a mouse clicker.

Id rather you answer my questions above, most people click with their mouse (that does not mean they don't use a set amount of hot keys as well). It is 100% possible though not as efficient to click if you are fast in tab target.

You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You not needing to look at your bar doesn't really make combat magically work different im sorry. You can believe not looking at your bar changes how fast abilities can be used suddenly but that isn't the case. How do you know the person playing isn't using hot keys, clicking and moving at the same time? If he is or isn't doesn't really change anything though, you don't look at keys when you are playing BDO as well.

Yeah, I wouldn't know how exactly not looking at the bar or clicking it influences the flow of your combat because I haven't played EQ2 extensively. But Noaani has and says that the combat is fast and requires a ton of actions.

And I can draw a parallel between that information and my own experience of "I know for sure that the videos that I could post do not represent the gameplay that I experienced", so why couldn't it be the same for EQ2.

And I can even look at BDO videos and see just a few dodges here and there with way more "just standing and unloading skills onto a target until it dies (usually a few seconds at most)", which in comparison to other presented "gameplay difficulty" doesn't quite match. So my assumption would be "the videos don't represent how the game plays, because I see 2 people saying that BDO's combat requires a ton of inputs, while videos don't really show that to me".

And at this point you'd say "just trust the people who have played the game way more than you", except you'd be megahypocritical in saying that because you never trust Noaani's word and just like to say "I can see all that I need to see in the videos".

What video are you watching that is showing it doesn't look that intensive or that you might not understand. I have no desire to be hostile on a take or beat around the bush I'd happily hear points in the video and see waht you are talking about and explain. My issue with Noaani is there is no transparency he doesn't actually explain in detail on what could be missed, and then fairly answer a question that might question that element. For example in the pvp videos as I've said before they pretty much have akin to a global cooldown as every skill has a bar on it, (some longer then others) before the skill is used. If that bar is .5-1 second and you can't do actions in-between it. How are you saying you are doing more button inputs then BDO?

Instead i just hear your game is shit, I won't try it, and won't have a sit down on the combat and maybe explain some things I might not have known. Never said whatever i say is 100% true im just saying what i see on all combat videos ive seen on the game.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.

Do people click abilities in BDO? Can they even? And if they can/could, would you consider them being good at pvp if they did? Could they even be good at pvp if they had the time to take their eyes off of their opponents?

Cause in L2 you didn't really have time to take your eyes off of your enemy. The ttk was usually too quick for you to do that. And from all the things you've said about BDO, I'd assume it's the same there. And you like to ask people "how good were you in pvp? what's your gear score?", which would imply to me that you do care about the percentile of skill of other people in these threads. We've usually talked in the context of top lvl content, be it pvp or pve. Now you've shifted to "everyday person, rather than top 1%er". But according to that logic, both Noaani and Dygz are "everyday players of BDO" whose opinion should be considered completely valid when talking about combat in that game.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.

Do people click abilities in BDO? Can they even? And if they can/could, would you consider them being good at pvp if they did? Could they even be good at pvp if they had the time to take their eyes off of their opponents?

Cause in L2 you didn't really have time to take your eyes off of your enemy. The ttk was usually too quick for you to do that. And from all the things you've said about BDO, I'd assume it's the same there. And you like to ask people "how good were you in pvp? what's your gear score?", which would imply to me that you do care about the percentile of skill of other people in these threads. We've usually talked in the context of top lvl content, be it pvp or pve. Now you've shifted to "everyday person, rather than top 1%er". But according to that logic, both Noaani and Dygz are "everyday players of BDO" whose opinion should be considered completely valid when talking about combat in that game.

You need to track and aim in BDO so there is no time to look at skills. Again I can't speak for L2 I haven't seen enough of that and it be a mess to mix a bunch of mmorpgs together for arguing points atm. But in EQ2 you don't need to track your target if you have line of sight and you are in range your skills will work.

The difference in how it effects gameplay is a lot more devastating in action combat. In tab if they can be hit and you are moving with your WASD clicking your skill is fine, its not going to stop you from hitting the target. Even more so if you have like .5 seconds between each skill use and they are qued so you won't lose on reaction time of your skills being used.

Mag7spy

@NiKr This one their skills seem to be a bit faster on this class, so technically you should have no inputs possible. But this is my point why you don't go in having an elitist attitude that no one clicks on tab target mmorpgs. I see people clicking, not everyone plays like someone that is trying to be extremely competitive be it in pvp or pve. To discard it and say people only hotkey their 30-40 skills and know everything doesn't feel realistic froma normal persons perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE3rWnlwYSo

*edit

another video to drive the point home

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TclO38nJh7U

Mag7spy

You can see some pvp on bdo start at 1:40. You can see the constant inputs that are needed with the dodges, attacks, cancels, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTfkyYKKd8

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.

Do people click abilities in BDO? Can they even? And if they can/could, would you consider them being good at pvp if they did? Could they even be good at pvp if they had the time to take their eyes off of their opponents?

Cause in L2 you didn't really have time to take your eyes off of your enemy. The ttk was usually too quick for you to do that. And from all the things you've said about BDO, I'd assume it's the same there. And you like to ask people "how good were you in pvp? what's your gear score?", which would imply to me that you do care about the percentile of skill of other people in these threads. We've usually talked in the context of top lvl content, be it pvp or pve. Now you've shifted to "everyday person, rather than top 1%er". But according to that logic, both Noaani and Dygz are "everyday players of BDO" whose opinion should be considered completely valid when talking about combat in that game.

Mag is lying to nearly everyone in this conversation.

BDO PvP, proper PvP, is no more about 'aim' than mid level Street Fighter, on half the classes.

What is happening here is the same sort of situation that comes up quite often. A relatively average skill player is making arguments based on how they think something works rather than how it actually works, which is why we ended up back at the 'everyday players' discussion.

It may be true that the skill floor of usual Action Combat is higher than the skill floor of Tab Combat, but once you begin to talk about skill ceiling even in PvP, they are either equal or, oddly, Action Combat skill ceiling is lower, at least in BDO.

This is why I look forward to Ashes, but I am now convinced that Mag is not just 'misinformed', but is actively being misleading in order to somehow 'not lose this argument'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySZ-bpwOvgU

But don't take my word for it, you can count the Decisions Per Minute here yourself. Timestamp 5:10:00.

I count 23-25 DPM, of which 7 are actually aiming.

Kunoichi is my main class.

The fight is cool. 25 DPM is a nice number for some. Maybe not for all. I enjoyed it for what it was.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

What video are you watching that is showing it doesn't look that intensive or that you might not understand. I have no desire to be hostile on a take or beat around the bush I'd happily hear points in the video and see waht you are talking about and explain.

Again, I got no clue what's the upper limit of EQ2's actions. Or what its gcd feels like. To me, from the videos, it looks like there's barely any noticeable gcd, if at all. At least nothing different from simple animations in BDO, just at a slower pace overall. But the pace of the battle seems roughly similar. There's constant movement in both games, there's constant ability use in both games (with both of them having some breathing space between abilities, for one reason or the other).

You've said that BDO has up to 40 skills, but how many of those are really utilized in any given fight. From the few vids I've watch it looked like it was the same 5-10 skills at most, if not even less. While in EQ2 vids I usually see at least 10 used, with usually even close and ranged weapons being utilized depending on the movement of both sides of the conflict. So, to me, it seems that the decision making per tick of combat is higher in EQ2 than in BDO, which could lead to the game feeling faster because your brain is working in overdrive.

In BDO you mainly think about your position in relation to your enemy, direction of your character and direction of your abilities (cause most of them are direction-based afaik). In EQ2 you think about positioning (otherwise it'd be more beneficial to just stand in one place, yet they don't), you think about range between you and the enemy (which is tied into weapon choice), you think about your rotation on top of weapon changes, you think about what your opponent might use (from everything that I've seen from BDO it looks like most people just react to abilities rather than predict them, but I might be wrong) - and that's just in pvp, while I'm pretty sure EQ2's pve is more complex so I'd assume it requires an even more intricate thought process.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Instead i just hear your game is shit, I won't try it, and won't have a sit down on the combat and maybe explain some things I might not have known. Never said whatever i say is 100% true im just saying what i see on all combat videos ive seen on the game.

Dunno who's saying that someone else's game is shit. I think Noaani have stated multiple times that BDO is good in particular matchups and for particular mechanics, just not as good for others. As for combat explanations and all that stuff, I'd assume it mainly comes down to just "rams butting heads w/o giving in". The main reason we're still on this absolutely pointless topic is that neither side will give into the other side's arguments (be it justified or not) so both sides just keep squabbling. And you're so deep into that squabble that there's no real way of getting out of it at this point.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What video are you watching that is showing it doesn't look that intensive or that you might not understand. I have no desire to be hostile on a take or beat around the bush I'd happily hear points in the video and see waht you are talking about and explain.

Again, I got no clue what's the upper limit of EQ2's actions. Or what its gcd feels like. To me, from the videos, it looks like there's barely any noticeable gcd, if at all. At least nothing different from simple animations in BDO, just at a slower pace overall. But the pace of the battle seems roughly similar. There's constant movement in both games, there's constant ability use in both games (with both of them having some breathing space between abilities, for one reason or the other).

You've said that BDO has up to 40 skills, but how many of those are really utilized in any given fight. From the few vids I've watch it looked like it was the same 5-10 skills at most, if not even less. While in EQ2 vids I usually see at least 10 used, with usually even close and ranged weapons being utilized depending on the movement of both sides of the conflict. So, to me, it seems that the decision making per tick of combat is higher in EQ2 than in BDO, which could lead to the game feeling faster because your brain is working in overdrive.

In BDO you mainly think about your position in relation to your enemy, direction of your character and direction of your abilities (cause most of them are direction-based afaik). In EQ2 you think about positioning (otherwise it'd be more beneficial to just stand in one place, yet they don't), you think about range between you and the enemy (which is tied into weapon choice), you think about your rotation on top of weapon changes, you think about what your opponent might use (from everything that I've seen from BDO it looks like most people just react to abilities rather than predict them, but I might be wrong) - and that's just in pvp, while I'm pretty sure EQ2's pve is more complex so I'd assume it requires an even more intricate thought process.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Instead i just hear your game is shit, I won't try it, and won't have a sit down on the combat and maybe explain some things I might not have known. Never said whatever i say is 100% true im just saying what i see on all combat videos ive seen on the game.

Dunno who's saying that someone else's game is shit. I think Noaani have stated multiple times that BDO is good in particular matchups and for particular mechanics, just not as good for others. As for combat explanations and all that stuff, I'd assume it mainly comes down to just "rams butting heads w/o giving in". The main reason we're still on this absolutely pointless topic is that neither side will give into the other side's arguments (be it justified or not) so both sides just keep squabbling. And you're so deep into that squabble that there's no real way of getting out of it at this point.

Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.

Also, this whole '40 skills' is also misleading, whether on purpose or not, in the same way it would be misleading to give someone a character in Street Fighter and tell them 'Choose from 50 different unique moves!'

I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.

Do people click abilities in BDO? Can they even? And if they can/could, would you consider them being good at pvp if they did? Could they even be good at pvp if they had the time to take their eyes off of their opponents?

Cause in L2 you didn't really have time to take your eyes off of your enemy. The ttk was usually too quick for you to do that. And from all the things you've said about BDO, I'd assume it's the same there. And you like to ask people "how good were you in pvp? what's your gear score?", which would imply to me that you do care about the percentile of skill of other people in these threads. We've usually talked in the context of top lvl content, be it pvp or pve. Now you've shifted to "everyday person, rather than top 1%er". But according to that logic, both Noaani and Dygz are "everyday players of BDO" whose opinion should be considered completely valid when talking about combat in that game.

Mag is lying to nearly everyone in this conversation.

BDO PvP, proper PvP, is no more about 'aim' than mid level Street Fighter, on half the classes.

What is happening here is the same sort of situation that comes up quite often. A relatively average skill player is making arguments based on how they think something works rather than how it actually works, which is why we ended up back at the 'everyday players' discussion.

It may be true that the skill floor of usual Action Combat is higher than the skill floor of Tab Combat, but once you begin to talk about skill ceiling even in PvP, they are either equal or, oddly, Action Combat skill ceiling is lower, at least in BDO.

This is why I look forward to Ashes, but I am now convinced that Mag is not just 'misinformed', but is actively being misleading in order to somehow 'not lose this argument'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySZ-bpwOvgU

But don't take my word for it, you can count the Decisions Per Minute here yourself. Timestamp 5:10:00.

I count 23-25 DPM, of which 7 are actually aiming.

Kunoichi is my main class.

The fight is cool. 25 DPM is a nice number for some. Maybe not for all. I enjoyed it for what it was.

Based on this comment you play BDO but you must not pvp that much you seem very inexperienced in some of your comments. So its either you are bad at pvp or you are just being bias, right now I'm going to think it is you lack experience with the game. If you want to prove me wrong though like I've said before I have friends that still play the game we can get you to jump in battle arena. I'd hoped you would prove it to be the bias though because this take is really bad.

So lets break this down.

DPM -

I'm just going to assume you are trying to stretch this to skew your point as there is clear bias or just actual inexperience. Between the start upon leaving the gate before screen flips to the other character they did well over 35 skills in that time period. That is plenty for that fight of fight as it is more cat and mouse with one trying to get the first cc and them playing a bit more on the safe side. If you are going to play further distance you won't be attacking as much as they are both trying to fish for a CC. Hence leading to less inputs then being in the thick of a battle.

*please make sure you count all actions dodges / multiple attacks /flows /buffs/ etc.

Aiming skills -
You are trying to say because a move is aoe you don't need to aim or it requires a lower amount of aim. Aim is still aim at the end of the day you aren't hitting them if your attack is not going towards them or you are not in range of them. You can't compare that to tab target in EQ2 where aiming is not required to land your hits.

Skill ceiling -
Let me see your actual pvp skills then e can have a discussion on skill ceiling, I don't think you are quite there yet to be getting into this kind of discussion on what is the max in BDO. What guild are you in, do you do siege, do you do node war? Are you willing to jump into battle arena?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.

Yeah, to me BDO seems fairly slow. Yes, you gotta dodge here and there correctly, but even from the video you posted, it's mainly a waiting game for a half-second impact, while doing 3-4 same abilities. And I'd assume it's even simpler in mass pvp, just because you don't have the benefit of taking your time with the fight.

And even in the last video that mag posted, I don't see any precision aiming as I would've imagined it to be for peak action fighting. It's mainly general direction and 30-40 degree conal aoe or a pointed 3-4m diameter aoe. To me that ain't fucking aiming. I know that my example of pixel hunting has been dismissed before, but catching a few-pixel-wide fast-moving character seems way more difficult than aiming in a general direction.

Azherae wrote: »

I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.

Eh, to me this is just casual discussion based purely on self-reported feelings of gameplay, from all sides. People tend to overexaggerate their experiences so I try to account for that and build a rough estimate of what the "truth" is. Obviously videos don't show it. And w/o putting in hundreds of hours in either of the games, I wouldn't know how those games truly feel.

But I definitely appreciate your input on this. Especially knowing that you're trying to ignore mag's posts (considering that's like 40% of combat threads

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

It is 100% possible though not as efficient to click if you are fast in tab target.

No it isn't.

Specific to EQ2...

You use your mouse for both character direction and camera direction. Between these two, the mouse is already fully engaged. You often use the mouse to run as well, not just to determine direction. The only movement action that isn't generally done on the mouse is strafing.

Further to that, if you are clicking abilities, you are not able to click them as fast as you need to. Even if you are focused 100% on your hot bar, when you get to the top end of the game, you simply can't maintain the pace that you need to maintain.

Even further to this, there are some encounters in which you NEED to use your mouse to mouse over detrimental effects in order to see which effect is applied. The developers specifically developed content in this manner, so that you NEED to identify two different effects, both of which were given the same icon. If you cleanse the wrong effect - even once - the raid wipes.

If you are a mouse clicker, you simply don't have time to identify the detriment and then cleanse it.

Honestly, I haven't come across a mouse clicker in an MMO in YEARS. Actual years. The last one I saw was probably around 2008. Your suggestion that 90% of players are mouse clickers just seems outright wrong from my perspective. But hey, since action games require less actual actions from players, maybe it's feasible in those games - so I'm not saying you're incorrect here, just that you are pointing out how much less actual action there is in an action game over a tab game.

For example in the pvp videos as I've said before they pretty much have akin to a global cooldown as every skill has a bar on it, (some longer then others) before the skill is used. If that bar is .5-1 second and you can't do actions in-between it. How are you saying you are doing more button inputs then BDO?

This is the cast bar.

It is essentially a visual representation of the time an actions animation has to run. Basically, the ability is activated, the animation starts, and the cast bar is a representation of how long the animation has left to run.

Also, "animation canceling" is a thing. All you need to do is press Esc.

This just shows why I said a while ago that videos of games you do not understand are of no real purpose - as you do not understand it. You are looking at one mechanic and just assuming it is a different mechanic - which no real idea what either mechanics even are. It would take dozens of posts to explain the basics of that video to you, and I really can't be bothered with that.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.

Yeah, to me BDO seems fairly slow. Yes, you gotta dodge here and there correctly, but even from the video you posted, it's mainly a waiting game for a half-second impact, while doing 3-4 same abilities. And I'd assume it's even simpler in mass pvp, just because you don't have the benefit of taking your time with the fight.

And even in the last video that mag posted, I don't see any precision aiming as I would've imagined it to be for peak action fighting. It's mainly general direction and 30-40 degree conal aoe or a pointed 3-4m diameter aoe. To me that ain't fucking aiming. I know that my example of pixel hunting has been dismissed before, but catching a few-pixel-wide fast-moving character seems way more difficult than aiming in a general direction.

Azherae wrote: »

I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.

Eh, to me this is just casual discussion based purely on self-reported feelings of gameplay, from all sides. People tend to overexaggerate their experiences so I try to account for that and build a rough estimate of what the "truth" is. Obviously videos don't show it. And w/o putting in hundreds of hours in either of the games, I wouldn't know how those games truly feel.

But I definitely appreciate your input on this. Especially knowing that you're trying to ignore mag's posts (considering that's like 40% of combat threads ).

Even given this, it seems to have reached a point of egregiousness that maybe I don't have the same level of tolerance for.

I do have some parallel experiences from fighting games, of course, the sort of person who looks at a playstyle and goes 'That's the wrong way to play that character' or 'you should use X move more' on a YouTube video, then gets flamed to hell because the video is from one of the top 10 players in the world of said character.

Which is followed by the usual response of 'Bro I don't care if you're top in the world you play this character wrong I could beat you easy' (even when the video is not posted by the actual player, as is now common).

It really isn't relevant whether or not these people actually believe what they are saying, I personally find it important that the uninitiated do not believe what they are saying.

Similarly, even I were to claim, right now, that I AM the player in that video, or a friend of theirs, the response would be equally backward, I'd expect. Because if it were not, it would mean the speaker would have to cease based on it.

They never do. They just double down. The reason is pretty normal. Mag THINKS that these things are impressive or difficult or require lots of practice, for others. Mag also thinks that anyone who disagrees must be worse or less knowledgeable at whatever or they wouldn't hold the same opinion.

Before I wasn't sure that I was more knowledgeable than Mag is. Now I'm sure. And it's not even that I hold a different opinion than Mag does about BDO (though Mag seems to need it to be so). It's that I know better than to hold a lesser opinion of other similar games based on their Targeting system.

Mag is the sort of person who 'does not believe in Xiaohai', a player who once entered a serious tournament for a game considered to have great depth, learned to play the game that day, and won the tournament based on fundamental skills accumulated from other games.

I merely offer my perspective because it's so textbook, I guess.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What video are you watching that is showing it doesn't look that intensive or that you might not understand. I have no desire to be hostile on a take or beat around the bush I'd happily hear points in the video and see waht you are talking about and explain.

Again, I got no clue what's the upper limit of EQ2's actions. Or what its gcd feels like. To me, from the videos, it looks like there's barely any noticeable gcd, if at all. At least nothing different from simple animations in BDO, just at a slower pace overall. But the pace of the battle seems roughly similar. There's constant movement in both games, there's constant ability use in both games (with both of them having some breathing space between abilities, for one reason or the other).

You've said that BDO has up to 40 skills, but how many of those are really utilized in any given fight. From the few vids I've watch it looked like it was the same 5-10 skills at most, if not even less. While in EQ2 vids I usually see at least 10 used, with usually even close and ranged weapons being utilized depending on the movement of both sides of the conflict. So, to me, it seems that the decision making per tick of combat is higher in EQ2 than in BDO, which could lead to the game feeling faster because your brain is working in overdrive.

In BDO you mainly think about your position in relation to your enemy, direction of your character and direction of your abilities (cause most of them are direction-based afaik). In EQ2 you think about positioning (otherwise it'd be more beneficial to just stand in one place, yet they don't), you think about range between you and the enemy (which is tied into weapon choice), you think about your rotation on top of weapon changes, you think about what your opponent might use (from everything that I've seen from BDO it looks like most people just react to abilities rather than predict them, but I might be wrong) - and that's just in pvp, while I'm pretty sure EQ2's pve is more complex so I'd assume it requires an even more intricate thought process.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Instead i just hear your game is shit, I won't try it, and won't have a sit down on the combat and maybe explain some things I might not have known. Never said whatever i say is 100% true im just saying what i see on all combat videos ive seen on the game.

Dunno who's saying that someone else's game is shit. I think Noaani have stated multiple times that BDO is good in particular matchups and for particular mechanics, just not as good for others. As for combat explanations and all that stuff, I'd assume it mainly comes down to just "rams butting heads w/o giving in". The main reason we're still on this absolutely pointless topic is that neither side will give into the other side's arguments (be it justified or not) so both sides just keep squabbling. And you're so deep into that squabble that there's no real way of getting out of it at this point.

Skills depend on the class, some skills are useless and are locked like every mmorpg. Some skills have multiple attacks to them so one skill could actually be 3 attacks with holding button inputs and such for that skills.

As far as knowing what is used, you might have a hard time telling in bdo because the flow of the combat is really fluid and things might look like one attack but for every moment its another attack (again it depends on the skill, the kuno attack where the teleport everywhere while standing is one skill. But they have other moves where they teleport and such as well that might blend in). He could definitely count the moves I think that would be the most logical way for that case between both games. But with BDO you have to count all attacks, dodges, etc and then there are animation cancels as well which can make it seem like less skills are being used with certain ones being partly skipped

IT depends on the level of skill you are on bdo, if you are higehr tier you are predicting what moves they are going to use, akin to a fighting. You need to take advantage of the gaps in their super armor and i frames so you can kill them.

The video Azherae posted is the most ratty pvp you will see on bdo as its 1v1 and they both don't want to get cc'd or get one combed they aren't going to fully commit and it depends as well on classes. I'd look more so for good pvp where someone is fighting multiple people at the same time it will give a better representations.

With the aoe skills again its there to make it easier but it is 100% still aiming. Some classes don't require it as much but compared to tab target in the clips shown with EQ2 it is night and day. If you play some high end pvp you would see as people will get behind you and your aoes. Your skills will miss with their movements as well if you play it you will understand with pvp.

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