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lets talk about the state of the game and combat

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Comments

  • edited May 2023
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's funny how Steven said 'in our other previews we've shown gameplay' in the mage stream.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Healing is not preventing damage.
    If you want to get specific/pedantic, healing is preventing the consequences of damage.

    Damage has no consequences until you HP reach 0, healing prevents (or attempts to prevent) that from happening.

    As such, healing prevents the consequences of damage - or prevents damage, for short.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I have explained Wards and Absorbs are a form of healing. These healing aspects do prevent damage but you don't agree with the terms.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »

    There is a concept called zoning, where you exert an area of influence on your enemies. Every single player has one. After you have sustained a sufficient amount of damage, re-entering the zone of influence of another player results in death. Therefore, any damage sustained affects your gameplay and decision-making. The more HP you lack, the less likely you are to join a fight.

    Damage might not have consequences for your preferred way of gameplay because it is simplified but Damage in games has consequences. Claiming otherwise shows a lack of understanding of basic game concepts.

    Healing negates damage dealt. The word prevent means to keep something from happening, healing does not keep damage from occurring. On the contrary, damage must have happened for a heal to occur. To add to that, players utilize their resources to deal damage. Once you have healed their damage you have taken away from their resources. When you claim that healing prevents the consequences of damage you state that the enemy never used any resource to deal damage in the first place.

    A healer's goal is not to keep everyone alive. It is to neutralize the influence of the enemy on their team. Most of the time, this is accomplished by keeping people alive.

    So, I've been playing MMO's with the same people for years.

    My decisions in game are not made based on my HP - my decisions are made based on whether I have a healer I trust with me or not.

    If you - as a healer - are present in a situation and those around you are basing decisions based on their current HP status, that is an indictment on your ability as a healer.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2023
    combat looking great, they 100% know and are doing a good job it just comes down to:

    players don't know what tf they are talking about, they don't know what action and tab is, and they make a big deal of something Extremely simple, that we have seen in GW2, ESO, Sword of Legends and multiple other games, hybrid is not complicated, its just a mix of skills with 2 camera options.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Who doesn't base their decisions on their HP bar? Is disengaging such an outlandish concept? So if you die you blame your healer? You see an enemy and attack until you or they die? Is this the depth of your gameplay?

    I am aware that healers encourage players to play the game and fight but people also tend to confuse their inability to make rational decisions with a healer's shortcomings.
    Noaani plays on a higher skill lvl, but even back in my days of L2, you'd fight till you died. The healer's job would be to keep you alive in whatever way. The hp bar itself didn't come into play. Only the binary options of "was that player under attack: yes or no". If someone was under attack - you heal them. If the healer was under attack - you protect him.

    And defensive movement would be based on the same thing. Are you being attacked? Move. Are you not being or about to be attacked? You can stay in one place or keep chasing your target.

    HP values didn't play that big of a role in decision making, if any.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Who doesn't base their decision on their HP bar?
    Me.

    I just said that.
    So if you die you blame your healer?
    No, because this isn't some crap WoW dungeon finder group content run.

    It would seem to me that you and I play in very different spheres of MMO gameplay. I play with the same people all the time, I know them, I trust them, they trust me.

    You play with people that would blame the healer.

    I'll stick to my way of playing, thanks.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    If anything, I can point your attention to the fact that Mage has a very potent engage and disengage. Their blink can jump across the terrain and is very long. Classes without movement speed buffs or dashes cannot reach them.
    And classes with those movement abilities will probably decimate them.

    Almost like it's balanced or something.

    In a game like Ashes, where PvP is largely based around area control, your enemy running away is the same as you winning.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is stated to be hard counters in pvp. Not that we've seen pvp now for over a year.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    This is the aftermath of suffering the presence of an overpowered role. Overtuned to the point of destroying complete aspects of PvP. This is why class design is of utmost importance for creating sophisticated PvP dynamics.
    Do explain what aspects you're talking about, because L2 pvp is still my favorite gameplay in my entire gaming career. And I've both played as a healer and played with amazing healers that I trusted completely.
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    If anything, I can point your attention to the fact that Mage has a very potent engage and disengage. Their blink can jump across the terrain and is very long. Classes without movement speed buffs or dashes cannot reach them.
    And those buffs will come from the bard. It's as if I've said this from the very start. Having a healer and a bard in your party will be very beneficial, and will most likely be more beneficial than just some additional dps.

    Also, we have no clue about that blink's CD. We have no clue about the amount of silence abilities in the game. We have no clue about any "movement ban" debuffs. We have no clue about detailed mana design (costs, debuffs, etc). We have no clue about general debuffs and their influence on blink (mb root prevents you from using it).

    As others have stated multiple times. You're judging the currently presented design as if it was the final one and as if the game was about to release. But none of that is true.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Disengaging and running away are two different things.
    If we are fighting over a specific location and you are disengaging to the point where you can not be pursued, they are functionally the same.

    In both cases, I am left in control of the location.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I am certain that Ashes of Creation will have an unreasonable class balance because of what they have said so far.
    So why are you still here then? If you're so sure that the game will be an unbalanced mess, why keep following it?
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Keeping track of your own HP bar for starters. A game that does not require that of you offsets this fundamental responsibility to someone else. And there is only one reason why this would happen. They are capable of doing too much.

    Of course, they are instances where you need to commit but your HP is your responsibility.
    Healing is now "too much"? Do you expect healers not to heal? In a 9-member party everyone has their own role and healer's just so happens to be "to heal". It's not too much, it's just enough. If anything, it's sometimes too much in the other way, because people still fail that role, due to their inability to heal well enough in hard situations.

    To clarify, the "to heal" role still requires way more work than just hitting a button or two. It requires constant awareness of the battlefield, constant monitoring of not only the whole party's hp values but also the positioning of the party and of the enemies. It requires general knowledge of dmg values against your party's defense values, superimposed on all the buffs that'll be used and all the healing that you can provide. And that healing has to be properly used, as to not burn all your mana away within just a few seconds.

    All of those requirements usually mean that only a chosen few manage to be good healers. If that kind of gameplay is not interesting to you, I'm not sure you're meant to be a healer. And if you still find all of that gameplay as easy as "press one button, cause they're capable of too much", then I'm curious to know what other game has an even harder gameplay than that.

    And btw, adding damaging abilities to a healer wouldn't add any difficulty to the list I presented, because the actions required from a heal-dmg class are the same as a pure healing one. If anything, a game that gives its healers damaging abilities would probably be designed in such a way where it's way easier for players to survive with a healer that's not constantly healing.

    And I personally wouldn't want Ashes to be that kind of an easy game.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    And btw, adding damaging abilities to a healer wouldn't add any difficulty to the list I presented, because the actions required from a heal-dmg class are the same as a pure healing one. If anything, a game that gives its healers damaging abilities would probably be designed in such a way where it's way easier for players to survive with a healer that's not constantly healing.

    And I personally wouldn't want Ashes to be that kind of an easy game.

    Its not about making healing easier, its about synergies between damage and heals. Right now, we have synergies between damage and stagger. We also have synergies between damage and conviction. There should be more synergy between damage and heals, likewise, more synergy between heals and damage.

    The class would be far superior and one of the better healers from all MMOs if the synergies are created. Damage/Healers are the best forms of Healers. Especially with Wards and Absorbs added too.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Its not about making healing easier, its about synergies between damage and heals. Right now, we have synergies between damage and stagger. We also have synergies between damage and conviction. There should be more synergy between damage and heals, likewise, more synergy between heals and damage.

    The class would be far superior and one of the better healers from all MMOs if the synergies are created. Damage/Healers are the best forms of Healers. Especially with Wards and Absorbs added too.
    If they manage to design the cleric in a way where it can keep up some dps while providing enough healing - great.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's still a toss-up between Oracle or Magician for me. If Cleric doesn't improve, my hopes are bard will be more to my tastes. Ranger comes third and mage fourth if both cleric and Bard are naff.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    This was the feedback asked for Cleric:
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Hello glorious community,

    We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Cleric & Weapon Updates shown during the November 2022 Development Update Livestream.

    To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
    • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    • Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    • What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    • Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    • Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Cleric archetype and the weapons shown during the November Development Update

    We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, December 16 2022, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!

    Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!

    One singular question asked precisely about Cleric in the month it got showcased.

    In the requested feedback in the month when Mage was showcased, there were questions only about Mage and they were 7 in total.

    We’ll be compiling a report for the design team. A design team that puts healers and non-healers in the same category. What is this design team? Does it even exist?

    What is it you expect, exactly?

    Intrepid showed off the cleric as it was at the time becaus people asked them to. They knew they didnt have all that much to show, but they showed what they had.

    What they had wasnt really enough for players to form any sort of *VALID* opinion on the class - yet obviously some people have formed an opinion anyway.

    Due to Intrwpid knowing they didnt have enough done on the cleric for people to have much of an opinion on it, they didnt bother asking many questions about it and instead asked about other aspects they they showed for the first time with that live stream (it isnt all just about class development).

    Seriously, Whitmore do you want? Literally the only thing they could realistically do differently is not show the cleric. If that is what you would have preferred them do, then all I can say is that clearly this is a you problem, and since many others appreciated seeing the early stages of clerics, perhaps if you dont want to see partially finished classes you should just not watch them.

    What early stages? The concept about Cleric is already decided because PvE content is being created for it. The only thing you can see is animations, visual effects and synergy between abilities which we already know what they can be. A little bit of awareness is required in order to see why the kit they showed is dysfunctional. The people who created this are going to be the ones to add more complexity to Cleric's abilities when they couldn't get the simple right.

    Why are your takes so bad, this is a alpha yo seriously do not understand what that means. At this point i have to say you are not equipped to understand and follow it. Everything people are telling you is going over your head.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I am certain that Ashes of Creation will have an unreasonable class balance because of what they have said so far.

    This is gold you are effectively doubling down by trying to say the game is bad so you can keep saying bs like they aren't capable of balancing the game.

    So are you just here to say a bunch of negative things about the game constantly in every post and ignore the logic people are saying by saying devs cant do anything.

    At this point i have to believe this is a troll.
  • In my mind "Official Proper Super Development" began in July 2021, with the launch of Alpha 1. Setting up the studio and creating a proof of concept in Apocolypse are big-time sinks that established studios wouldn't have had to contend with.

    All of that was getting ready and setting up for the actual development of the game. That means a pretty successful Alpha 1 in Summer 2021, followed by pretty good (and improving) monthly updates since, with an Alpha 2 probably in Summer/late 2024 (Which is only 3 years since Alpha 1 with Covid to take into account)

    I know people are super desperate for the game but I would much rather wait and follow development. There needs to be so much content created for Verra to really work as an MMO world. If Steven has the money, I'm happy for the studio to continue to expand and for more and more content to be created.
  • Dizz1Dizz1 Member
    edited May 2023
    I don't understand why have to compare archetypes we know for now that obviously in different stages and come with a conclusion saying combat/balance is bad. If now we are in Alpha2 testing and some archetypes didn't change anything and they are really bad then I can understand why.

    I mean do you really aware mage update/preview(whatever you want to call it) was 1 week ago, cleric was 5 months ago, ranger was 7 months ago, fighter was 10 months ago.

    To be honest after mage update stream I was more exciting to see what and how other classes will be in future in stead of worry about mage OP other classes suck combat suck unbalanced game etc.
    A casual follower from TW.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dizz wrote: »
    I don't understand why have to compare archetypes we know for now that obviously in different stages and come with a conclusion saying combat/balance is bad. If now we are in Alpha2 testing and some archetypes didn't change anything and they are really bad then I can understand why.

    I mean do you really aware mage update/preview(whatever you want to call it) was 1 week ago, cleric was 5 months ago, ranger was 7 months ago, fighter was 10 months ago.

    To be honest after mage update stream I was more exciting to see what and how other classes will be in future in stead of worry about mage OP other classes suck combat suck unbalanced game etc.

    This would be if he had logic to his post.

    But it is instead trying to make it seem like game is releasing in this state and arguing devs don't change anything. Which makes 0 sense since i don't think this person understands how game development works.

    I think there is something else going on making him salty and trying to take out some inner suppressed anger on the game so he can be negative towards it. This is me just assuming but seems he is kind with this kind of stuff sooo.

    Wish he took my advice on to approach things positive and drive discussion but i don't think they have interest in that. It is like a wall where he sees one thing and won't hear anyone else.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 2023
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    The real question is why are you here, actively posting on a daily basis, in the forums of a game you have not bothered to test and you will not play in the foreseeable future?
    I'm gonna test it once alpha2 is out. I didn't have $500 to test alpha1 back when it was online. "Have not bothered" implies that I could easily do so, but not everyone has $500 to just throw away.

    As for why I'm here, it's mainly because I like the current direction of the game, but I know for damn sure that majority of people don't. So I'm here to provide even at least the smallest voice to those who do like the game as it plans to be right now.

    You're
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    certain
    that the game will be unbalanced, so you're here to
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    argue against the implementation of previous-century PvP gameplay
    I'm here to do exactly the opposite.

    So I guess that's the answer to my question, that I should've figured out even before asking it. You're, just as many other people, here to change what Ashes is going to be on release. So, sorry for taking up your time with these pointless questions.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I found myself arguing against the implementation of previous-century PvP gameplay
    What implementation?

    Nothing in the game is implemented yet - it is all still being built.
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