Do they even understand how dysfunctional is the kit they showcased? Your single target heal shares its cooldown with your single target offensive spell. By doing that, they are forcing you to use AoE heals for single-target purposes because you don't want to waste DPS for the damage you can heal without sacrificing any.
If you need a single-target heal, someone's going to have to cast that heal. So you accept a loss to DPS and cast a single-target heal.
The players who can't manage that decision, and just opt to obsess with the "efficiency" of their own DPS every time, will just get called out for being terrible at their class by their party.
Nothing about that has anything to do with game balance. The only way balance would get involved would be if Intrepid started listening to carebears who want their class to excel at everything ("If my 500HP heal doesn't match my 1000HP damage, I CAN'T cast it and might as well only spam my AoE until I'm oom, so you HAVE to buff it to be at least as good as my damage, reee!") - and there's no reason to believe they would do that.
I could keep on ranting about these ideas, but I'll just leave it up to you to justify your logic here...
I don't think I have the energy to argue with you. Your words don't make sense, your opinions are biased and you are talking with voices in your head.
Steven copied a pvp system from ~20 years ago almost 1 to 1. He took death penalties from games from 20 years ago. He took the oldest mmo design of the holy trinity. He took big pvp content from pvp mmos of ~20 years ago (pretty much the same one that the pvp system is from, but other games also had it). He took open worldness of the same old mmos. He took the forced pvp at sea system from a 10y.o. game. He took the "party-based balancing and design targeting" from the 20y.o. games. He took the "no party finder" from those same games. He employed people that worked on mmos 20 years ago.
Oh, and probably the biggest indicator of "this is an old mmo" is the tabness of combat. Even though the system is hybrid, it's still just tab with action camera. And it's been said from the start, if they fail with hybrid - they go full tab.
This game has not been about reinventing design wheels. It's been about going back to the roots and trying to just perfect them, w/o moving away from their core designs.
If you need a single-target heal, someone's going to have to cast that heal. So you accept a loss to DPS and cast a single-target heal.
[...]
but I'll just leave it up to you to justify your logic here...
I cannot help you.
I don't think anyone wants your help and seeing how you treat people who disagree or reason with you I cannot say I blame them.
On the topic of balanced classes. I come from games like EQ1. I get its an insult that classes wont be balanced but IMO I really hope the classes are not balanced. If the classes are too balanced, that just leads to homogenization of the classes, making it so every class can fill any hole in a group.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
On the topic of balanced classes. I come from games like EQ1. I get its an insult that classes wont be balanced but IMO I really hope the classes are not balanced. If the classes are too balanced, that just leads to homogenization of the classes, making it so every class can fill any hole in a group.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
The problem with not balancing classes is that players, over time, treat unbalanced classes as jokes or as if they don't exist.
It's safe to do this in quick, lobby style games, but not for longer term MMOs with dedication to class required.
I'm not saying Intrepid NEEDS to balance their archetypes, I'm saying that spending design time on unbalanced stuff is generally a waste in my experience. It leads to negative sentiment and discussion, it doesn't tend to result in much use, and it makes a certain subset of players toxic towards those who choose to play the unbalanced options (both upper and lower).
On the topic of balanced classes. I come from games like EQ1. I get its an insult that classes wont be balanced but IMO I really hope the classes are not balanced. If the classes are too balanced, that just leads to homogenization of the classes, making it so every class can fill any hole in a group.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
The problem with not balancing classes is that players, over time, treat unbalanced classes as jokes or as if they don't exist.
It's safe to do this in quick, lobby style games, but not for longer term MMOs with dedication to class required.
I'm not saying Intrepid NEEDS to balance their archetypes, I'm saying that spending design time on unbalanced stuff is generally a waste in my experience. It leads to negative sentiment and discussion, it doesn't tend to result in much use, and it makes a certain subset of players toxic towards those who choose to play the unbalanced options (both upper and lower).
In a way, it's actually not worth it.
I don't think he means not balanced. I think he means class pros and cons. Also WoW started the lobby crap. Even classic WoW in general mentality
Mage beats warrior but rogue beats mage. Doesn't mean a good warrior couldn't beat a mage just mage had an advantage.
I would imagine if a class is not performing as expected it would get tweaked but leave class
unique roll intact
On the topic of balanced classes. I come from games like EQ1. I get its an insult that classes wont be balanced but IMO I really hope the classes are not balanced. If the classes are too balanced, that just leads to homogenization of the classes, making it so every class can fill any hole in a group.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
The problem with not balancing classes is that players, over time, treat unbalanced classes as jokes or as if they don't exist.
It's safe to do this in quick, lobby style games, but not for longer term MMOs with dedication to class required.
I'm not saying Intrepid NEEDS to balance their archetypes, I'm saying that spending design time on unbalanced stuff is generally a waste in my experience. It leads to negative sentiment and discussion, it doesn't tend to result in much use, and it makes a certain subset of players toxic towards those who choose to play the unbalanced options (both upper and lower).
In a way, it's actually not worth it.
Your statement can be both true and false. I will give a few examples of what I mean. Cleric being the best volume healer vs everyone can self heal to the point healers are an after thought. With a cleric being the best volume healer does not mean a Druid or a Shaman could not do the job well, with their other tools in their kit.
An Enchanter being the best at CC vs everyone that has some CC skills. Sure you can get along without an Enchanter but it sure changes the dynamic of a team.
My problem, and I don't think Ashes will do this. Is where every class can fill any roll. So that you never really need any class. Like ESO, love the game but end game, you rarely need healers. But this could also me lamenting some of my favourite team dynamics I have played. I loved in EQ1 when everyone adjusted their tactics because we got a new class to join us. Hour later someone would leave and we would get another different class and again the team dynamics would change again. My hope with this game being designed for group play, primarily. Some of that would be found in Ashes.
I tend to use the word 'balance' to refer to only 'the specifics of overall power and usability', and view 'class homogenization' or 'making sure everyone has healing/DPS/cleanse' as different things.
If you need a single-target heal, someone's going to have to cast that heal. So you accept a loss to DPS and cast a single-target heal.
[...]
but I'll just leave it up to you to justify your logic here...
I cannot help you.
I don't think anyone wants your help and seeing how you treat people who disagree or reason with you I cannot say I blame them.
Why do you feel the need to enlighten me about what you consider a fact and through shaming on top of that? I didn't ask nor did anyone else in my stead. I also never suggested that I seek your compasion and wisdom so you can leave me alone. It is better for me. Thank you for understanding.
On the topic of balanced classes. I come from games like EQ1. I get its an insult that classes wont be balanced but IMO I really hope the classes are not balanced. If the classes are too balanced, that just leads to homogenization of the classes, making it so every class can fill any hole in a group.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
Balance and diversity are not the same.
Maybe and maybe not. Some of the most unbalanced games I have played, have ended up being the most diverse games I have played. EQ1, EQ2, DAoC, Rift just to name a few
If you need a single-target heal, someone's going to have to cast that heal. So you accept a loss to DPS and cast a single-target heal.
[...]
but I'll just leave it up to you to justify your logic here...
I cannot help you.
I don't think anyone wants your help and seeing how you treat people who disagree or reason with you I cannot say I blame them.
Why do you feel the need to enlighten me about what you consider a fact and through shaming on top of that? I didn't ask nor did anyone else in my stead. I also never suggested that I seek your compasion and wisdom so you can leave me alone. It is better for me. Thank you for understanding.
On the topic of balanced classes. I come from games like EQ1. I get its an insult that classes wont be balanced but IMO I really hope the classes are not balanced. If the classes are too balanced, that just leads to homogenization of the classes, making it so every class can fill any hole in a group.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
If you need a single-target heal, someone's going to have to cast that heal. So you accept a loss to DPS and cast a single-target heal.
[...]
but I'll just leave it up to you to justify your logic here...
I cannot help you.
I don't think anyone wants your help and seeing how you treat people who disagree or reason with you I cannot say I blame them.
Why do you feel the need to enlighten me about what you consider a fact and through shaming on top of that? I didn't ask nor did anyone else in my stead. I also never suggested that I seek your compasion and wisdom so you can leave me alone. It is better for me. Thank you for understanding.
On the topic of balanced classes. I come from games like EQ1. I get its an insult that classes wont be balanced but IMO I really hope the classes are not balanced. If the classes are too balanced, that just leads to homogenization of the classes, making it so every class can fill any hole in a group.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
Balance and diversity are not the same.
Because you clearly need to be enlightened
Or thought to think like you?
Clearly you don't know the history of mmo games. Maybe try knowing a topic and just know you don't really know what you are talking about. I offered you a suggestion of what the poster probably meant in context. You clearly needed to be enlightened (your words). Mine would be educated. Your obviously a late bloomer WoW player.
Why do you feel the need to enlighten me about what you consider a fact and through shaming on top of that.
I just made an effort to get to the practical argument you based your criticisms on. I'm not shaming you, I'm challenging you to justify your extraordinary claims.
In case you're referring to the hypothetical opinion quote, I didn't actually imply that those are your thoughts. Nor did I really shame them, but just point out that players will shame them, so if those are your thoughts and you feel shamed by my quote, all the more reason to have a good logical framework for them.
But mostly, I just disagree with your point from my experience as a healer, both in MMOs where DPS on healers is an option (that severely impacts heal-output,) and in games where that option doesn't really exist.
You clearly needed to be enlightened (your words). Mine would be educated. Your obviously a late bloomer WoW player.
You can only teach me how to unreasonably doubt myself if I listen to your words. And its arrogance that can mislead you to think that a person who is approaching me with ulterior motives is capable of providing me with what I need.
It has been established that the current direction of Cleric's design has aspects that resonate with people who pursue regression. Nobody could ever provide more valuable feedback than this.
You were speaking of lobby mmo (which is only WoW) and to an extent FFX (not original) and class balance. Stay on topic kid. Now you just look bad.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You clearly needed to be enlightened (your words). Mine would be educated. Your obviously a late bloomer WoW player.
You can only teach me how to unreasonably doubt myself if I listen to your words. And its arrogance that can mislead you to think that a person who is approaching me with ulterior motives is capable of providing me with what I need.
It has been established that the current direction of Cleric's design has aspects that resonate with people who pursue regression. Nobody could ever provide more valuable feedback than this.
Out of curiosity and an attempt to better understand you views.
What MMO do you think did healers the best?
What MMO do you think has the best over all class design and why?
What MMO do you think has the best combat system?
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
so bored on the forums today. This thread has made me eat popcorn lol.
Ya this guy is golden. Complains the game won't have balance why arguing dev's won't balance the game. His set up is to argue in circles with anyone including himself.
Which the devs have already contradicted his statement since they take feedback (that makes sense) and listen to it. So him trying to argue devs won't do anything is honestly childish (there isn't even a reason for them to do anything yet since they are till working on it and we have yet to see a good portion of the kit....)
I think his goal is to get us all to band together again him so that part is working.
Comments
If you need a single-target heal, someone's going to have to cast that heal. So you accept a loss to DPS and cast a single-target heal.
The players who can't manage that decision, and just opt to obsess with the "efficiency" of their own DPS every time, will just get called out for being terrible at their class by their party.
Nothing about that has anything to do with game balance. The only way balance would get involved would be if Intrepid started listening to carebears who want their class to excel at everything ("If my 500HP heal doesn't match my 1000HP damage, I CAN'T cast it and might as well only spam my AoE until I'm oom, so you HAVE to buff it to be at least as good as my damage, reee!") - and there's no reason to believe they would do that.
I could keep on ranting about these ideas, but I'll just leave it up to you to justify your logic here...
Steven is somewhat on record as saying he doesn't like the way MMO's have headed in the last decade or so.
"Regression" is literally the point of this game.
Yeah, but you didn't commission a whole pile of red "Make MMOs Great Again" hats.
Again, taking MMO's a step back is the point of this game. It is literally WHY Steven put millions in to it.
Oh, and probably the biggest indicator of "this is an old mmo" is the tabness of combat. Even though the system is hybrid, it's still just tab with action camera. And it's been said from the start, if they fail with hybrid - they go full tab.
This game has not been about reinventing design wheels. It's been about going back to the roots and trying to just perfect them, w/o moving away from their core designs.
I don't think anyone wants your help and seeing how you treat people who disagree or reason with you I cannot say I blame them.
Having classes do something better then all the rest, often leads to really fun game play and group synergization. I think there is room for some class balance but I do really hope that balance is not the dominate theme.
The problem with not balancing classes is that players, over time, treat unbalanced classes as jokes or as if they don't exist.
It's safe to do this in quick, lobby style games, but not for longer term MMOs with dedication to class required.
I'm not saying Intrepid NEEDS to balance their archetypes, I'm saying that spending design time on unbalanced stuff is generally a waste in my experience. It leads to negative sentiment and discussion, it doesn't tend to result in much use, and it makes a certain subset of players toxic towards those who choose to play the unbalanced options (both upper and lower).
In a way, it's actually not worth it.
I don't think he means not balanced. I think he means class pros and cons. Also WoW started the lobby crap. Even classic WoW in general mentality
Mage beats warrior but rogue beats mage. Doesn't mean a good warrior couldn't beat a mage just mage had an advantage.
I would imagine if a class is not performing as expected it would get tweaked but leave class
unique roll intact
Your statement can be both true and false. I will give a few examples of what I mean. Cleric being the best volume healer vs everyone can self heal to the point healers are an after thought. With a cleric being the best volume healer does not mean a Druid or a Shaman could not do the job well, with their other tools in their kit.
An Enchanter being the best at CC vs everyone that has some CC skills. Sure you can get along without an Enchanter but it sure changes the dynamic of a team.
My problem, and I don't think Ashes will do this. Is where every class can fill any roll. So that you never really need any class. Like ESO, love the game but end game, you rarely need healers. But this could also me lamenting some of my favourite team dynamics I have played. I loved in EQ1 when everyone adjusted their tactics because we got a new class to join us. Hour later someone would leave and we would get another different class and again the team dynamics would change again. My hope with this game being designed for group play, primarily. Some of that would be found in Ashes.
I tend to use the word 'balance' to refer to only 'the specifics of overall power and usability', and view 'class homogenization' or 'making sure everyone has healing/DPS/cleanse' as different things.
Maybe and maybe not. Some of the most unbalanced games I have played, have ended up being the most diverse games I have played. EQ1, EQ2, DAoC, Rift just to name a few
Because you clearly need to be enlightened
Clearly you don't know the history of mmo games. Maybe try knowing a topic and just know you don't really know what you are talking about. I offered you a suggestion of what the poster probably meant in context. You clearly needed to be enlightened (your words). Mine would be educated. Your obviously a late bloomer WoW player.
In case you're referring to the hypothetical opinion quote, I didn't actually imply that those are your thoughts. Nor did I really shame them, but just point out that players will shame them, so if those are your thoughts and you feel shamed by my quote, all the more reason to have a good logical framework for them.
But mostly, I just disagree with your point from my experience as a healer, both in MMOs where DPS on healers is an option (that severely impacts heal-output,) and in games where that option doesn't really exist.
Combat: Non existent still an idea
This thread: A lure made of platinum
Take a break from the game. Even if it's only a few months. Just get away, clear your head. Come back to it again afresh afterwards.
The rest of us enjoy the livestreams, and you misunderstanding an alpha demonstration isn't enough to remove our enjoyment of that.
We'll see you when you get back.
You were speaking of lobby mmo (which is only WoW) and to an extent FFX (not original) and class balance. Stay on topic kid. Now you just look bad.
Out of curiosity and an attempt to better understand you views.
What MMO do you think did healers the best?
What MMO do you think has the best over all class design and why?
What MMO do you think has the best combat system?
Regression is a high chance of crap combat.
Ya this guy is golden. Complains the game won't have balance why arguing dev's won't balance the game. His set up is to argue in circles with anyone including himself.
Which the devs have already contradicted his statement since they take feedback (that makes sense) and listen to it. So him trying to argue devs won't do anything is honestly childish (there isn't even a reason for them to do anything yet since they are till working on it and we have yet to see a good portion of the kit....)
I think his goal is to get us all to band together again him so that part is working.