lets talk about the state of the game and combat

Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Why does that observation confuse you? If I was like you I would be responding in a like-minded manner.

Why would I do that? No one here is against me or is out to get me. I've been "spamming" these forums for almost 3 years now. In that all time, even with several arguments, there's been no one who seemed like they unreasonably hated me or kept arguing against me (and I'm present in almost every damn thread).

And even in case with you, I'm almost sure that the only reason why you're responding to people the way you do is cause you read our messages with your own negative coloring, so instead of normal attempts at discussion you see our comments as some personal attack or an attempt at one. And obviously, when you think that everyone around you is trying to bring you into submission, you'd start being defensive and disregard any of their comments.

I know you won't believe this, but I can assure you, no one here is trying to trip you up. We're just trying to discuss each other's suggestions in the context of the currently presented design. Sooner or later everyone will propose an idea that either doesn't jell well with the design or just goes against the majority of the forum's audience. I've had several threads where majority of people disagreed with my suggestions. After doing my best to explain my reasoning, if they still disagreed with me, we'd just go our different ways, with both of our opinions remaining present as a piece of feedback for Intrepid.

Multiple people in the 2 threads have tried asking you to properly explain your feedback, because saying "the genre has been shit, this game will follow that same trend and I'm sure of it" does not help Intrepid in any way. If you have some idea how to help Intrepid make a more "progressive" game - do share.

But, just as with any of our ideas, do remember that your suggestions will be discussed and criticized by others, because that is just how open discussions go. It not only helps flesh out the idea, but also gives Intrepid multiple perspectives on a design direction.

You've proposed the cleric respawn point idea. Do you have any others, or would that single mechanic be enough for you to consider Ashes a progressive game?

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Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

I have never said what you quoted. How am I to interpret this? What kind of person does this to another?

Your own thread starts with your dissatisfaction with the classic healer archetype.

Niem Lumel wrote: »

To start off, judging from what was revealed about the cleric archetype in the latest showcase I am assuming that nothing revolutionary is planned for the class. It maintains its basic function which is to heal and that was all. In other words, it is boring.

You later describe that reactive healing boils down to just heals, which you find boring (as the statement above indicates). You then explain a somewhat proactive way of using heals in the form of proc/combo mechanics, but you dismiss them as a bad design.

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Healing is done in response to a target receiving damage. The act of healing is reactive, never proactive. With that very limitation in mind, there is little you can give a healing role in terms of abilities, spells, and passives. It is all going to boil down to more heals. When I see on my hotbar a spell that does burst heal, a spell that does st regen heal, and a spell that does normal heal, I see three different buttons on separate cooldowns that do the exact same thing at a different rate.

Gating heals behind combos, mechanics or conditions is always going to feel terrible and out of place because of the very nature of healing. You are always in a state of responding to what others near you do. You do not control the fight. Combos and procs are out of the question. Every second spent in combat you need to plan anew how to use whatever you have remaining. So what you are left with is resource management. A resource is your HP bar, MP bar, cooldowns, and then class specific. The only place where developers could get really creative is class-specific resource management.

That last sentence goes directly against the second quote in this post, because that is exactly what Intrepid showed in the showcase. That is, the "Conviction" mechanic.

And the cleric stream itself mentions proactivity of this mechanic.
Conviction is a class resource we came up with for the Cleric specifically. Certain abilities will generate it based on certain criteria; and as Steven was saying there, you can either use it to heal an ally or you can use it to do damage to an enemy and generate conviction, which will then help you in the future heal for more. So, kind of what Keenan was saying about predictive play being an element, not just reactive: that would be the one of the predictive aspects of the cleric just setting yourself up so that when things start looking a little rough, you've prepared that in advance by not healing as much early on, and paying off later.[1] – Tradd Thompson
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Conviction

But that proactive gameplay doesn't really matter, because if it's tied to healing spells - you consider that OP, while also thinking that "use a spell in advance" is too simplistic.

Niem Lumel wrote: »

In my head, the phrase proactive healing sounds strange. It might as well not exist but everyone is free to interpret games as they please. I would like to think proactive gameplay means something more than using a spell in advance.

Niem Lumel wrote: »

In my opinion providing healers with efficient methods of proactive healing is the easiest way to create unfair and very difficult class to play against.

And if the proactive part is linked to damaging abilities, you say that it'll be bad gameplay, because it conflicts with the way you're supposed to play the healer

Niem Lumel wrote: »

The previously mentioned role limitations must be taken into consideration when developing a class-specific resource management system otherwise it is not going to play out well. Not well at all. In fact, it will lead to a lot of frustration if the method through which you obtain your class-specific resources conflicts with the way you are supposed to play your role. So in almost all cases, the class-specific resource system ends up being nothing more than a mere echo of what you are already doing.

But, just as a reminder, you've already stated that you find normal healer gameplay (that is, just healing) boring, so at this point you find proactive healer gameplay bad and prone to being OP, while classic healer gameplay is boring. Ashes will have both.

But ultimately you're not sure about the whole topic, so, whatever.

Niem Lumel wrote: »

I am really not sure about it.

I could consider proactive healing to be all damage-related spells with heals attached to them. But I also would not refer to that type of gameplay as healer gameplay because your focus would not be on who has low HP but on striking your enemy with another attack which is what the DPS role is for. I am torn a bit on that subject.

So, with all of that in mind, I dunno how others read those quotes, but to me they read as words of someone who finds the core premise of cleric gameplay bad. Or, as I put it in harsher words, shit. And as for the "I'm sure Ashes will be the same", here's that

Niem Lumel wrote: »

I am certain that Ashes of Creation will have an unreasonable class balance because of what they have said so far.

If you want to clarify any of those points or point out my wrong assumptions/interpretations of them - be my guest.

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Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

I didn't treat it as a mechanic because it is a fairly simple thing you would not even notice while playing. But if they label it as a mechanic then it is one. However, gating is different from amplifying. Convictions don't gate your heals.

Ok. Then do you consider Ashes a game that has progressive mechanics or is this still not enough? If not enough, would your suggestion take it over the edge or would it still be not enough?

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Songcaller

You could build a dps cleric...

Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

What makes healers special is that they can heal. I never said that this is the only thing they do in the game when someone plays a healer, but it is the only thing you would bring them with you. Anybody can DPS, I assume there is no need to point out simple things like that, and everyone can DPS better than a healer. So if you don't need the heals of a Cleric in PvE, they are useless in the game

We don't know how hard the pve will be, but we know that the current plan is to make it difficult, which, I'd assume, means that you'll need a cleric to clear it.

If the pve is in fact easy enough to clear w/o a cleric, what mechanic would you want in the game to make the archetype valuable and fun to play? And I'm talking about purely the pve part of the game. Your respawn suggestion would only be applicable in pvx/p situations, because pve would never kill you with a cleric. And if pvx is always dangerous, then you always need a cleric (as was the case in L2).

Mag7spy

Niem Lumel wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Obviously we're all here too old for you and have regressive views. But could you present us with a progressive one so that we could at least understand where you want the genre to progress to? Cause so far I've not seen that.

No use trying to pull nonsense like this on me. You used regression as a reason to defend an iteration of PvP crippled by class imbalance.

NiKr wrote: »

Niem Lumel wrote: »

People wanting Ashes of Creation to remain in a regressive state and expecting a logical conversation when feedback is being submitted is a bizarre and other-worldly concept for me. How are we going to agree on virtually anything when we have taken fundamentally opposite stances?

What in your opinion would be the "progressive" way then? Make everyone do everything? Make every class completely self-sufficient? Make content so damn easy that any party setup at any amount of members can always clear it?

Any party without a Cleric can clear small content and you seem to be fine with that fact, a lot more than me, so why are you asking me these questions?

You are literarily crying and not answering any critique or questions. No one is going to take you serious. You aren't going to let anyone understand exactly what you want because you are worried about people tearing it apart.

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Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Anything that is interesting and non-dysfunctional. I have mentioned that the current kit is dysfunctional because you gain damage by using AoE heals for Single target purposes, and you want to avoid the use of your ST heal in PvE. You could restrict this type of spell execution with mp and aggro issues but it will not change the fact that in the ideal scenario where you can use what you have, you will want to cast your offensive spell as much as possible. Naturally, you will be working towards it, tank that gains more aggro and classes that give MP are also going to impact your gameplay because of it.

Yes, you've given the explanation of the bad gameplay before. Do you have an example or an idea for the good gameplay? Mainly the "interesting and non-dysfunctional". What, in your opinion, is the "interesting and non-dysfunctional" gameplay? Do you have any concrete examples or at least general directions? Not the "don't do this" stuff, but instead "do this" examples.

Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Anything that is interesting and non-dysfunctional. I have mentioned that the current kit is dysfunctional because you gain damage by using AoE heals for Single target purposes, and you want to avoid the use of your ST heal in PvE. You could restrict this type of spell execution with mp and aggro issues but it will not change the fact that in the ideal scenario where you can use what you have, you will want to cast your offensive spell as much as possible. Naturally, you will be working towards it, tank that gains more aggro and classes that give MP are also going to impact your gameplay because of it.

Also, as a clarification for myself because we obviously have different experiences in pve. Why don't you want to use STH in pve? I feel like I'm missing some context here.

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Azherae

Niem Lumel wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Anything that is interesting and non-dysfunctional. I have mentioned that the current kit is dysfunctional because you gain damage by using AoE heals for Single target purposes, and you want to avoid the use of your ST heal in PvE. You could restrict this type of spell execution with mp and aggro issues but it will not change the fact that in the ideal scenario where you can use what you have, you will want to cast your offensive spell as much as possible. Naturally, you will be working towards it, tank that gains more aggro and classes that give MP are also going to impact your gameplay because of it.

Yes, you've given the explanation of the bad gameplay before. Do you have an example or an idea for the good gameplay? Mainly the "interesting and non-dysfunctional". What, in your opinion, is the "interesting and non-dysfunctional" gameplay? Do you have any concrete examples or at least general directions? Not the "don't do this" stuff, but instead "do this" examples.

Using what was showcased, I would start by separating the heal from the offensive Conviction spell and calling it something else. It will have its own cooldown, however, each Conviction generated adds another charge to the ability up to set a maximum number of charges. This way you would never want to use another AoE ability that consumes Conviction charges for ST heal because your goal is to do an efficient Single target heal and that would only be possible if you utilize your Single target spell.

Niem, could you remind me or point out why you believe that AoE heal is connected to Conviction at all?

I didn't perceive it that way, and perhaps that's my problem. I share your feedback I think?

I'm not sure why it's designed that way (I'm not saying it's not true), but if it is, then I agree with you. It's just that I don't know the basis for the thing. I'll go rewatch some of the Cleric showcase (I think I know the section, but if it isn't where they are showing off the Zombie clouds on the ground for the first time, please lmk).

People have different interpretations of what they saw in that showcase than you do, sometimes this happens because of assumptions from the games people come from. It could be us, it could be you, but please at least bear with us and try to get everyone to the same basis.

Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Using what was showcased, I would start by separating the heal from the offensive Conviction spell and calling it something else. It will have its own cooldown, however, each Conviction generated adds another charge to the ability up to set a maximum number of charges. This way you would never want to use another AoE ability that consumes Conviction charges for ST heal because your goal is to do an efficient Single target heal and that would only be possible if you utilize your Single target spell.

Ok. Do you want other mechanics separate from conviction? We have a very basic understanding and knowledge of conviction and whatever abilities will be linked to it, so I feel like that lack of knowledge limits the extent to which you can go with your ideas.

So if you were to come up with a completely different mechanic, what would it be. In other words, what have you always wanted to have as a healer.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

People have different interpretations of what they saw in that showcase than you do, sometimes this happens because of assumptions from the games people come from. It could be us, it could be you, but please at least bear with us and try to get everyone to the same basis.

Yeah, I think our assumptions have just come from almost diametrically opposed ends, which is why our understanding of where the cleric archetype is being taken was so different.

I feel like we're really close to an understanding, which would be very productive to this discussion.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

People have different interpretations of what they saw in that showcase than you do, sometimes this happens because of assumptions from the games people come from. It could be us, it could be you, but please at least bear with us and try to get everyone to the same basis.

Yeah, I think our assumptions have just come from almost diametrically opposed ends, which is why our understanding of where the cleric archetype is being taken was so different.

I feel like we're really close to an understanding, which would be very productive to this discussion.

Well, let's 'party up' and 'switch roles' for now then? idk, I feel like I got dismissed at a specific point in the other thread that we're going to end up back at, but I don't have seem to have the 'verbal adaptation' skill that you do, so I leave 'continuing discussion of things I start' to you.

I'll focus on 'figuring out where the misaligned perspectives are'.

EDIT: I am in fact currently rewatching the Showcase so I'll have the timestamps I think.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I don't have seem to have the 'verbal adaptation' skill that you do

It's that good ol' "hitting your head against the wall until you succeed" passive And I have Sylar as my avatar for a reason. As edgy and chuuni as it is, I've always related to his ability to understand things. And so far in life I've been able to stay on track with that relation.

You're a longtime healer, so I definitely hope we can get to the bottom of this, cause if the cleric archetype isn't fun for the majority of healers I won't have anyone to save my ass when I throw myself onto other people and mobs

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Azherae

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

People have different interpretations of what they saw in that showcase than you do, sometimes this happens because of assumptions from the games people come from. It could be us, it could be you, but please at least bear with us and try to get everyone to the same basis.

Yeah, I think our assumptions have just come from almost diametrically opposed ends, which is why our understanding of where the cleric archetype is being taken was so different.

I feel like we're really close to an understanding, which would be very productive to this discussion.

Well, let's 'party up' and 'switch roles' for now then? idk, I feel like I got dismissed at a specific point in the other thread that we're going to end up back at, but I don't have seem to have the 'verbal adaptation' skill that you do, so I leave 'continuing discussion of things I start' to you.

I'll focus on 'figuring out where the misaligned perspectives are'.

EDIT: I am in fact currently rewatching the Showcase so I'll have the timestamps I think.

Both AoEs use all Conviction stacked the moment you cast them. The cleansing wave bounces to another target in range, all targets get a buff which triggers the cleansing effect upon receiving another heal. The Communal Restoration increases by 1% max hp per Conviction.

NiKr wrote: »

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Using what was showcased, I would start by separating the heal from the offensive Conviction spell and calling it something else. It will have its own cooldown, however, each Conviction generated adds another charge to the ability up to set a maximum number of charges. This way you would never want to use another AoE ability that consumes Conviction charges for ST heal because your goal is to do an efficient Single target heal and that would only be possible if you utilize your Single target spell.

Ok. Do you want other mechanics separate from conviction? We have a very basic understanding and knowledge of conviction and whatever abilities will be linked to it, so I feel like that lack of knowledge limits the extent to which you can go with your ideas.

So if you were to come up with a completely different mechanic, what would it be. In other words, what have you always wanted to have as a healer.

Most definitely something that turns the single target heal I previously mentioned into either a regen or burst. It could be as simple as key command buttons. For example, normally you have 1 charge of that heal, it goes up to 4 if you use your abilities to generate Conviction or other means. Now, you could either heal by spending only one charge at a time or all at once, resulting in a burst heal. You could also have the option to turn 2 charges in a heal over time. If the ST heal is on 2 keybind, Shift + 2 for burst, Alt + 2 for regen. I see these actions as basic as using basic attacks and avoiding additional hotbar space for them is ideal.

The High Priest (Cleric + Cleric class) needs to have all this utility under one form or another:
Dispel
Max HP
Defense buff
Spell Shield
Disengage

Successfully dispelling debuffs augments attacks to provide more resources. Your shields which end up breaking provide your next attack with cc. Max HP buffs applied on targets who were already dealt 100% of their own max HP while under your buff give your attacks disengage or activate an ability with disengage. Defense buffs trigger cooldown reduction from each attack received up to a certain point in parts of your kit.

I think all of this could be regulated with additional class resources.

Ok, this is gonna get long but let's focus on one thing for now as a correction.

If you watch the showcase, not all stacks of Conviction are consumed by Cleansing Wave if the wave doesn't have enough people to jump to.

Also, the Communal Restoration... was your point that someone would want to use this just because they have Conviction stacks?

I suggest watching the old Cleric Showcase for Alpha-1 to see how many of your thoughts are already implemented. The issue we're having in discussion is that you're taking the little bit of Cleric showcase and extrapolating a lot in a negative way with multiple negative responses so you get a lot of unnecessary pushback.

As for your suggestions, all that seems very easy and likely. Is the 'problem' here that you haven't seen Intrepid showcase similar things?

I'm not sure why you don't expect to see those things, is my point.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I'm not sure why you don't expect to see those things, is my point.

Yeah, this has been my main "question" behind this whooole discussion. I'm going to sleep, so I'll leave the convo for now. Also, it's not as if I can add anything valuable at this point, because the topic has reached at least some semi-common ground, which was my goal.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'm not sure why you don't expect to see those things, is my point.

Yeah, this has been my main "question" behind this whooole discussion. I'm going to sleep, so I'll leave the convo for now. Also, it's not as if I can add anything valuable at this point, because the topic has reached at least some semi-common ground, which was my goal.

I'll try to keep the rambling flows to a minimum, but you might wake up to 3 Splinter Topics, I don't feel like 'holding back' today.

It is Wednesday, my dudes.

Songcaller

If we can get conviction to stacks of 10, a 10% Health Buff/Ward would be very beneficial. Not clear if the health buff can be healed for the ten seconds its active but a 10 second ward can be used in a variety of situations. Right now, I feel its the best application of conviction but more must be revealed.

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Azherae

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'm not sure why you don't expect to see those things, is my point.

Because they showcased a design where Damage versus Heal was presented as a concept. Having to choose between heal or damage. Contradictory idea which gives the false sense of choice. There is only one. Damage when there is nothing to heal.

Azherae wrote: »

If you watch the showcase, not all stacks of Conviction are consumed by Cleansing Wave if the wave doesn't have enough people to jump to.

Also, the Communal Restoration... was your point that someone would want to use this just because they have Conviction stacks?

No, you would use them whether you have Conviction stacks or not to heal single-target damage in order to avoid wasting your own damage. This is how it works design-wise in PvE.

Ok, bear with me, I'm making sure I'm following.

You would use Communal Restoration to heal single Target damage to avoid wasting your own damage, because your Single Target heal 'should' be used to generate Conviction (for more damage or something later), therefore incentivizing the use of AoE heal in this situation?

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Azherae

Niem Lumel wrote: »

No you are not following and I am not going explain at it again. It is fairly simple.

I have to make a bunch of assumptions to follow it. And those assumptions will absolutely seem like attacks on you, so I'm trying to avoid that.

They showcased four, maybe five abilities. One of which is a single target heal that can be used as an attack.

Do you believe that this is the only single target heal a Cleric will have? I can accept this assumption based on certain games being like this. Should we ask Intrepid to verify that there is more than one heal?

There were 3 different single target heals in Alpha-1.

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Songcaller

Some heals should always be off cooldown though. Depends on the healer, and, I haven't seen enough of Cleric yet. However, damage taken is not constant unless its DoTs and even then HoTs can stem a DoT and be reinforced by burst without bursting through all CDs. Its why I'm against GCD, especially since GCD was designed to counter the issues when we were all on dialup.

Azherae

Niem Lumel wrote: »

What you can't understand?
You have 4 abilities
Damage/Heal, Heal, Heal, Damage

You have nothing to do, you use your damage. Your tank receives damage, you would lose your damage and let the other 2 heals sit on unutilized or use the other heals and continue DPS-ing? Doesn't matter if you have 15 other single target heals, when they are on cd, your choice would be between whether to use your single targeted heal and lose damage or not lose damage and use your aoe heal.

I think my problem is that I come from games where this situation doesn't come up.

My tank receives damage. Is it critical? Probably not. Do I need to heal it right now? I'll look at the situation and decide.

Usually it's more of a question that someone other than the tank took damage and I need to decide if to heal them. So to me you're just describing the sort of simplistic game that I don't actually play.

Most of the time in games I play the Tank gets less than half of my heals. If you're referring to the few situations where the Tank is finally damaged enough that the choice is 'use the AoE heal or die' sure. I just don't play games where this is a big enough component of gameplay for it to concern me.

I wouldn't expect to have to heal my Paladin's HP very often in Ashes, but that expectation doesn't have any more specific basis than yours (relative to Ashes) so that's why it seems like we can't understand each other.