You may not have a real idea of how respawning will work but that's not for everyone. One doesn't need a PhD in game development to understand what respawning is and how it is implemented in a game.
L2 let you respawn at the nearest town or your fort or your clan hall or your castle. WoW had you run a ghost to your corpse or get a debuff if you wanted to "teleport". And I'm sure there's a ton of other mmos that have their own designs of respawn mechanics and locations. And so far, the only respawn mechanic that we know for sure is that PKers will respawn at random locations. Though even there we've got no clue if it'll be within some area or literally anywhere on the map.
You like to argue against your own made up "facts", when there's been no concrete info to support neither the argument nor the "fact".
I stopped arguing with you after you talked about how this not working for pugs. I was talking with Neurath.
Yes, you were happy that I disagreed with your idea, w/o defending the idea itself or explaining how my concerns were invalid. That is a great stance to have when you're trying to make a suggestion for a game.
I'm just wondering how close Enchanter will be to DnD. I'm not sure if an Enchanter can replace a bard. Though, the summoner blurbs suggest an Enchanter can. I will test Oracle, Magician and Enchanter in A2. If I get more time I'll test other classes too. I'm quite stoked for the game still. Especially seeing the extra polish of Mage.
Honestly i think you should go back to node, it is a pretty big punishment to have to start there again in a game that is pvx where pvp can happen to get loot.
The guy you are arguing with based on his past log i feel doesn't do pvp. So he doesn't understand the downsides to death even if he is ignoring the mature xp debt. But he ignores the debt since he is use to other games where leveling takes no time, compared to hundreds of hours..
Even outside the potential teleportation abuse, I think this would lead to smaller amount of pvp, while also removing people from the game because running back would be considered a chore.
I think there could be stages of respawn points. If you die in pvp once - you get the closest possible point. If you die in pve - you get "entrance" of your current location. If you die from a PKer - you get closest and entrance. If you die from a player (purple or red), say, 3 times within a short period of time (10 min?) - you get those two options and the option to respawn at the nearest node center.
This way you could come back for a revenge pretty fast (be it a pvp or a PKer one), while also getting a chance to run away from an annoying pursuer a bit easier. Pve death bringing you to the entrance would be justified by "you weren't good enough for that spot" reasoning and would allow you to reposition to an easier location. And the node respawn would come with a price of several deaths, so people wouldn't think of abusing it all that much.
This I can agree with if you keep dying constantly giving a buffer, before you have to spawn back at town. I tend to think more hardcore stuff but this would be more casual for those types of players akin to lives before you know your at your limit. And maybe at some more suspense in giving you a choice in what you want to do at your last life before you need to walk again.
Some players do not want to pvp. On top of that, there is no risk in contestation without corruption. Steven might remove corruption around world bosses but it remains to be seen.
There is a balance in a pvx game. We don't want pvp to overshadow pve or pve to overshadow pvp. There must be scope snd reason to do both and have all types of players.
It is a fair trade to become corrupted and wipe a whole group on a boss. PvE players do fight back but when they choose to and do not tend to enjoy auto flagging. Making everyone purple means there will be no diplomacy, only group wipes.
The game works with GCDs and oGCDs. You have 2 damage GCDs which you press on cooldown throughout a fight.
You have healing oGCDs whose usage you try to optimize in order to increase your damage output by not resorting to healing GCDs.
The fight is 19 mins long. I have used 276 GCDs for my nuke and 29 for my DoT. These are my only two damaging GCDs.
In comparison, the total amount of healing GCDs used was 33.
Okay, sounds like you played a game with predetermined decisionmaking (because if there's a whole slew of skills that you can only choose one of every 2.5 seconds, chances are it will already be decided for you which skill is optimal when that GCD comes off, rendering all the other options useless for a while.)
And more importantly, if I'm reading your concerns about the raids/pve content correctly, it seems that the game isn't great at challenging your party as a whole, leaving you as the healer with only DPS to focus your conscious decisionmaking on.
It seems to me that you are deeply in need of picking up a PvP/RvR-centric game, or at least a game where raids lead to truly unpredictable, difficult-to-manage situations, so you can really feel what a healer's role is supposed to be like when things get stressful.
The fun in the healer's gameplay for me has never benefitted from being given little dps minigames to engage in during the fights that the party has control over. The fun always comes from using proper preparation on being ready for the moment when the party inevitably loses control over the situation, at which point I have to have my regular buff upkeep already managed, so that I can primarily focus on deciding what to prioritise in order to help my party members manage the problems we under and help them regain control more quickly, or stay floating until the fight is over.
Interestingly, without ever having played the game, I just looked up opinions about the FF14 healer on YouTube, and immediately found someone who pretty much exactly mirrored my opinion in the context of the game, except talking about the game as if it already plays like that.
Whether he's right that the type of content he gets to play in FF14 sufficiently offers that type of challenge is a detail that isn't worth discussing here. The point is: that's the kind of challenge a healer player can generally expect from good game design, and it has little do to do with the class balance itself.
Cleric as a base archetype is going to be irrelevant in PvE. And because its unique utility is inconsequential, the developers will make it overpowered so that people opt in to play it.
Yeah, you completely disregard the role that healers have when damage becomes an issue. And if your premise is that dungeons won't be a challenge for groups and the whole point will be speedrunning, your vague criticisms so far aren't even a start to a solution anyway. You're the game design equivalent of a doctor expecting an amputation, and equipping us with a bandaid. Then this isn't a discussion of class balance, it's a rant about the consequences of bad dungeon design, taking up space in a class balance discussion, and desperatey digging for class balance solutions.
As a sidenote, I don't think this is how most games treat the term "global cooldown". In my experience, in most games GCD is essentially an animation cooldown (sometimes extended to 0.25 - 1s) that serves to stall the game pacing a little. On top of that, abilities have their own regular 5-240 second cooldown.
So I think if we're going to bring up this term again at all, I think we have to describe the effect we're talking about more specifically.
The way I see it, for the effect you are talking about "shared cooldown" would be a much more useful term, because it's each ability's only cooldown, not an additional global effect next to the individual cooldown.
I have played RvR games, thank you for your recommendations but I am fairly certain that you are exaggerating
I'd imagine it's definitely more unpredictable than the scripted fights of ff14. And if ones finds unpredictable stuff thrilling - they'll find it, well, thrilling.
FFXIV is about doing mechanics correctly. Mistakes wipe. They deal unhealable damage.
I have played RvR games, thank you for your recommendations but I am fairly certain that you are exaggerating about the thrill and unpredictability of your experience.
GCD stands for global cooldown. The amount of time you need before using another ability. How other games treat that term is irrelevant when we are discussing FFXIV.
I'm so not going to enjoy the months of Alpha-2 testing where I have to continually repeat to others the differences between FF14 and FF11, especially since I don't play the former for exactly the reason you described.
My head hurts just thinking about it.
Anyways just throwing in the usual contrast...
FFXI is about prioritizing your responses to multiple simultaneous changing conditions that limit the group's effectiveness. Some are also standard unavoidable damage mainly to add another condition, but actually, choosing not to heal because doing something else matters more is often the 'healer skill check'.
I have played RvR games, thank you for your recommendations but I am fairly certain that you are exaggerating about the thrill and unpredictability of your experience.
If you're talking about ESO or GW2, you didn't play RvR games, you played theme parks with one RvR ride. I'm talking about DAOCamelot, Regnum, or games with PvP that matches those RvR experiences. (Maybe ArcheAge, maybe lots of older MMOs with good PvP and overland guild combat. Even Lotro might be decent, though I doubt it. I won't claim to have played the majority of them, but I've played and seen enough to know that they can be good.)
You don't have to agree with that point or play games I liked, it was a suggestion to open your perspective and offer you a more intriguing, positive MMO experience. What would be much more useful is a response to my points about healer gameplay and the appealing elements of it, which is the type of thing you should be ready/prepared to do, if your criticism of AoC's cleric is justified.
GCD stands for global cooldown. The amount of time you need before using another ability. How other games treat that term is irrelevant when we are discussing FFXIV.
But we're discussing Ashes of Creation. You seem to enjoy switching back and forth between discussions of general game design principles and specific games' mechanics because it lets you criticise everything without defending anything you say, but that won't inform or influence anyone trying to draw a conclusion from the bigger picture of the dicussion. Being clear about what type of effect you're talking about, and which properties of it make you judge it the way you do, would help make your points more pertinent.
If they can't win against another group dominating a dungeon, then they as PvE-ers should become citizens of the node that the group is from
What makes you think being in the same node as someone will help?
I mean, my guild will consist of citizens of a number of nodes, if we are killing a boss and a group or raid comes along and attempts to deprive us of our loot, they become our rivals regardless of what node they are from.
But we're discussing Ashes of Creation. You seem to enjoy switching back and forth between discussions of general game design principles and specific games' mechanics because it lets you criticise everything without defending anything you say, but that won't inform or influence anyone trying to draw a conclusion from the bigger picture of the dicussion. Being clear about what type of effect you're talking about, and which properties of it make you judge it the way you do, would help make your points more pertinent.
No, that comment was not discussing Ashes of Creation. I was precisely asked what games have the best healer gameplay and I answered that question by using FFXIV as an example to point what I don't like.
There is something seriously wrong with your thought process and I am getting tired of it.
Wait, so, someone asks you what games you think had good healer mechanics, you reply with a game that has healer mechanics you don't like, and then you suggest someone else's thought process is seriously wrong?
No, that comment was not discussing Ashes of Creation.
I didn't say it was. I just said that on the broader scale, on this forum, we're discussing Ashes of Creation (and MMO theory/design.) I didn't say you weren't allowed or were wrong for writing the way you had. I just justified why my general statement about the term "GCD" was still relevant.
Which is why I then continued to talk about how you jump back-and-forth from large-scale concepts to specific examples as it's convenient for your self-representation, but never connecting and drawing back conclusions in either direction. If it's unclear to you why I said "We're discussing Ashes," you set us up for this problem by talking about FF14's GCD without connecting it to the general question of intriguing healer/class design.
What would be much more useful is a response to my points about healer gameplay and the appealing elements of it, which is the type of thing you should be ready/prepared to do, if your criticism of AoC's cleric is justified.
It's so sad, I really wonder how much more insightful your opinions and ideas could be if you'd just have the confidence to continue a discussion instead of just dodging any point that might reveal an inconsistency in your thoughts.
I responded to you because I think there's a possibility that your ideas about game pacing/class design might be more funcitonal for a modern game than mine. (Obviously I'm doubtful of it, as I am sure you are the other way - there's a reason they are my opinions. But I acknowledge the possibility.)
I know you're not here to convince me, but you should still be interested in showing that your suggestions/ideas can convince someone, no?
I am not here to fall for the baby-level mind traps set up by people who pursue regression and undoubtedly hate themselves with passion.
I'm not sure what mind traps you are talking about here.
If your position is well considered, others pointing out basically anything at all about it should be easy for you to rebuff.
From my perspective, you are saying that Ashes doesn't have gameplay for healers that you find enjoyable, yet you can't point to any game that has healer gameplay you enjoy, yet further you still seem to insist that healers are the correct role for you to play.
Again from my perspective, this means your perspective here isn't just a house of cards, it is a house of cards without the foundation layer - just sort of hovering in the air with no reason at all for existing in the state it is in.
As a sidenote, I don't think this is how most games treat the term "global cooldown". [...] So I think if we're going to bring up this term again at all, I think we have to describe the effect we're talking about more specifically."
I am pointing out that you're jumping back-and-forth because of the reasons I have listed.
The use of the term "GCD" had nothing to do with that. You're the one who keeps bringing that up. I made the sidenote at all because the term had recently often been mentioned before in this thread and others in relation to AoC skill design, and I wanted to help avoid future confusion.
You have all the space you'd need to advance the significant discussion points from any of their facettes that actually matter to the people in this thread.
Not to mention the pretense reeking of foul intent.
I didn't like where our initial interaction led (presumably because I dared to object to that "forcing you to use AoE heal for single target" claim, and later question your experience with a certain type of healer gameplay?), so I'm trying a more understanding/non-hostile approach. If that's manipulative or underhanded to you, then by your standards, all communication is manipulative, and you might as well come to terms with it.
I am not here to fall for the baby-level mind traps set up by people who pursue regression and undoubtedly hate themselves with passion.
I'm not sure what mind traps you are talking about here.
I never tried to discuss GCDs outside of the scope of that comment. And I don't care if there are GCDs in Ashes of Creation. Yet, I am being accussed by someone who is allegedly trying to reason with me that it is me who jumps back-and-forth. Not to mention the pretense reeking of foul intent. My lack of confidence saddens him so much because my ideas are so insightful. If only I could continue to engage with him for no reason other than to explain to the people who don't argue with me my thoughts. What a noble cause! I should be interested in leading pointless discussions because a person on the internet told me so. I don't think it is a very reasonable thing to do.
Actually, the whole discussion about GCD seems to have come from that poster clarifying what the term means in general. They were correct in doing so, as even if the term is misused in one game, that doesnt mean that misuse should be taken to other games.
You may well have been correct in terms of how GCD is used in the game you were talking about (even if the term is used incorrectly in that game), but they were still correct in stating the generally correct use of the term.
As a point of clarification, GCD is GLOBAL cooldown. If you have one for attacks and one for heals, it isnt global. A better term for that would be offensive cooldown and healing cooldown (OCD and HCD). Still not saying you are wrong in stating how the term is used in the game in question, just stating that the term is very obviously used incorrectly in that game, if the GCD in question is not in fact global.
However, the comments about the GCD were stated as being an aside, it is not an issue to do with your main point. As such, you have no need to discuss it.
If any of this is true then take it upon yourself to develop the idea further.
Why would we develop your idea for you? The only reason I described what I would've preferred was because you didn't address any of my concerns with your original idea. Instead you were just happy that a person who disagrees with you was disagreeing with you. And Lae had the same point.
You suggested a thing. People criticized your suggestion. But instead of explaining your suggestion better or arguing against the criticisms you dodged all of that and did the very thing you accuse me of doing - find every train of thought that was not about your suggestion and argued against that. This comes off as a huge indicator of lack of confidence in your own idea or lack of understanding of how it could be implemented in the game.
Seeing him utilize every train of thought to find something to argue against a suggestion convinced me he is capable of it if he redirects his energy in the opposite direction.
The best way to flesh out a basic idea in to something that actually could work is to have people with different perspectives point out flaws in it, and then work with them on ways to plug those flaws.
We've all done that a number of times on these forums. While none of the ideas have been directly bought in to the game (that we know of) various aspects of the problem solving have assisted Intrepid internally a number of times.
That problem solving is far more useful (and far more enjoyable) than the initial idea by itself. It is something anyone posting any ideas here should embrace.
Comments
You like to argue against your own made up "facts", when there's been no concrete info to support neither the argument nor the "fact".
This I can agree with if you keep dying constantly giving a buffer, before you have to spawn back at town. I tend to think more hardcore stuff but this would be more casual for those types of players akin to lives before you know your at your limit. And maybe at some more suspense in giving you a choice in what you want to do at your last life before you need to walk again.
There is a balance in a pvx game. We don't want pvp to overshadow pve or pve to overshadow pvp. There must be scope snd reason to do both and have all types of players.
Okay, sounds like you played a game with predetermined decisionmaking (because if there's a whole slew of skills that you can only choose one of every 2.5 seconds, chances are it will already be decided for you which skill is optimal when that GCD comes off, rendering all the other options useless for a while.)
And more importantly, if I'm reading your concerns about the raids/pve content correctly, it seems that the game isn't great at challenging your party as a whole, leaving you as the healer with only DPS to focus your conscious decisionmaking on.
It seems to me that you are deeply in need of picking up a PvP/RvR-centric game, or at least a game where raids lead to truly unpredictable, difficult-to-manage situations, so you can really feel what a healer's role is supposed to be like when things get stressful.
The fun in the healer's gameplay for me has never benefitted from being given little dps minigames to engage in during the fights that the party has control over. The fun always comes from using proper preparation on being ready for the moment when the party inevitably loses control over the situation, at which point I have to have my regular buff upkeep already managed, so that I can primarily focus on deciding what to prioritise in order to help my party members manage the problems we under and help them regain control more quickly, or stay floating until the fight is over.
Interestingly, without ever having played the game, I just looked up opinions about the FF14 healer on YouTube, and immediately found someone who pretty much exactly mirrored my opinion in the context of the game, except talking about the game as if it already plays like that.
Whether he's right that the type of content he gets to play in FF14 sufficiently offers that type of challenge is a detail that isn't worth discussing here. The point is: that's the kind of challenge a healer player can generally expect from good game design, and it has little do to do with the class balance itself.
Yeah, you completely disregard the role that healers have when damage becomes an issue. And if your premise is that dungeons won't be a challenge for groups and the whole point will be speedrunning, your vague criticisms so far aren't even a start to a solution anyway. You're the game design equivalent of a doctor expecting an amputation, and equipping us with a bandaid. Then this isn't a discussion of class balance, it's a rant about the consequences of bad dungeon design, taking up space in a class balance discussion, and desperatey digging for class balance solutions.
As a sidenote, I don't think this is how most games treat the term "global cooldown". In my experience, in most games GCD is essentially an animation cooldown (sometimes extended to 0.25 - 1s) that serves to stall the game pacing a little. On top of that, abilities have their own regular 5-240 second cooldown.
So I think if we're going to bring up this term again at all, I think we have to describe the effect we're talking about more specifically.
The way I see it, for the effect you are talking about "shared cooldown" would be a much more useful term, because it's each ability's only cooldown, not an additional global effect next to the individual cooldown.
I'm so not going to enjoy the months of Alpha-2 testing where I have to continually repeat to others the differences between FF14 and FF11, especially since I don't play the former for exactly the reason you described.
My head hurts just thinking about it.
Anyways just throwing in the usual contrast...
FFXI is about prioritizing your responses to multiple simultaneous changing conditions that limit the group's effectiveness. Some are also standard unavoidable damage mainly to add another condition, but actually, choosing not to heal because doing something else matters more is often the 'healer skill check'.
You don't have to agree with that point or play games I liked, it was a suggestion to open your perspective and offer you a more intriguing, positive MMO experience. What would be much more useful is a response to my points about healer gameplay and the appealing elements of it, which is the type of thing you should be ready/prepared to do, if your criticism of AoC's cleric is justified.
But we're discussing Ashes of Creation. You seem to enjoy switching back and forth between discussions of general game design principles and specific games' mechanics because it lets you criticise everything without defending anything you say, but that won't inform or influence anyone trying to draw a conclusion from the bigger picture of the dicussion. Being clear about what type of effect you're talking about, and which properties of it make you judge it the way you do, would help make your points more pertinent.
I mean, my guild will consist of citizens of a number of nodes, if we are killing a boss and a group or raid comes along and attempts to deprive us of our loot, they become our rivals regardless of what node they are from.
Wait, so, someone asks you what games you think had good healer mechanics, you reply with a game that has healer mechanics you don't like, and then you suggest someone else's thought process is seriously wrong?
Which is why I then continued to talk about how you jump back-and-forth from large-scale concepts to specific examples as it's convenient for your self-representation, but never connecting and drawing back conclusions in either direction. If it's unclear to you why I said "We're discussing Ashes," you set us up for this problem by talking about FF14's GCD without connecting it to the general question of intriguing healer/class design.
I know. I responded to those examples. Remember? The parts of my comment you ignored?
It's so sad, I really wonder how much more insightful your opinions and ideas could be if you'd just have the confidence to continue a discussion instead of just dodging any point that might reveal an inconsistency in your thoughts.
I responded to you because I think there's a possibility that your ideas about game pacing/class design might be more funcitonal for a modern game than mine. (Obviously I'm doubtful of it, as I am sure you are the other way - there's a reason they are my opinions. But I acknowledge the possibility.)
I know you're not here to convince me, but you should still be interested in showing that your suggestions/ideas can convince someone, no?
@Noaani ☠💀☠
< "baby-level mind traps"
I love progress to a fault. I just also know that not everything that's possible should, or at least needs to, be done. (Especially not by everyone!)
I'm not sure what mind traps you are talking about here.
If your position is well considered, others pointing out basically anything at all about it should be easy for you to rebuff.
From my perspective, you are saying that Ashes doesn't have gameplay for healers that you find enjoyable, yet you can't point to any game that has healer gameplay you enjoy, yet further you still seem to insist that healers are the correct role for you to play.
Again from my perspective, this means your perspective here isn't just a house of cards, it is a house of cards without the foundation layer - just sort of hovering in the air with no reason at all for existing in the state it is in.
The use of the term "GCD" had nothing to do with that. You're the one who keeps bringing that up. I made the sidenote at all because the term had recently often been mentioned before in this thread and others in relation to AoC skill design, and I wanted to help avoid future confusion.
You have all the space you'd need to advance the significant discussion points from any of their facettes that actually matter to the people in this thread.
I didn't like where our initial interaction led (presumably because I dared to object to that "forcing you to use AoE heal for single target" claim, and later question your experience with a certain type of healer gameplay?), so I'm trying a more understanding/non-hostile approach. If that's manipulative or underhanded to you, then by your standards, all communication is manipulative, and you might as well come to terms with it.
Actually, the whole discussion about GCD seems to have come from that poster clarifying what the term means in general. They were correct in doing so, as even if the term is misused in one game, that doesnt mean that misuse should be taken to other games.
You may well have been correct in terms of how GCD is used in the game you were talking about (even if the term is used incorrectly in that game), but they were still correct in stating the generally correct use of the term.
As a point of clarification, GCD is GLOBAL cooldown. If you have one for attacks and one for heals, it isnt global. A better term for that would be offensive cooldown and healing cooldown (OCD and HCD). Still not saying you are wrong in stating how the term is used in the game in question, just stating that the term is very obviously used incorrectly in that game, if the GCD in question is not in fact global.
However, the comments about the GCD were stated as being an aside, it is not an issue to do with your main point. As such, you have no need to discuss it.
You suggested a thing. People criticized your suggestion. But instead of explaining your suggestion better or arguing against the criticisms you dodged all of that and did the very thing you accuse me of doing - find every train of thought that was not about your suggestion and argued against that. This comes off as a huge indicator of lack of confidence in your own idea or lack of understanding of how it could be implemented in the game.
The best way to flesh out a basic idea in to something that actually could work is to have people with different perspectives point out flaws in it, and then work with them on ways to plug those flaws.
We've all done that a number of times on these forums. While none of the ideas have been directly bought in to the game (that we know of) various aspects of the problem solving have assisted Intrepid internally a number of times.
That problem solving is far more useful (and far more enjoyable) than the initial idea by itself. It is something anyone posting any ideas here should embrace.