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Casual vs. hardcore players as seen by Steven

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Comments

  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I think Ashes has a very good chance of maintaining the population numbers Steven hopes for:
    Similar numbers as EvE Online would be great. More would be even better.

    WHAT IS THIS WEAKSAUCE PROPAGANDA? Have I not instructed you all on proper propaganda creation? It has to be believable for a critical mass of ignorant people to be effective. AoC with similar numbers to a TWENTY year old, super hardcore, space themed spreadsheet simulator? WHO (ZY FUK) WILL BELIEVE THIS?

    Do you understand what is going on here Dygz. Do you understand what we are fighting for? To turn every game into PALIA. And YOU. You have set us back months if not YEARS. You were just redeployed here to the AoC forum too. COULD YOU NOT HAVE SAVED THIS FUCK UP FOR THE MMORPG SUB REDDIT? OR MAYBE THAT SHITHOLE MMORPG.COM. SOMEWHERE WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT BE DUMB ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THIS BULLSHIT. NO. You pick the official AoC forums for this monumental fuck up. I am so...FUCKKKK. I can''t even. We have fucking Pax Dei coming, Throne and Liberty, Archeage 2, GOD KNOWS WHAT OTHER PVP MMOS ARE COMING. We're spread thin, people are starting to wake up and here you are just fuckin up.

    By the power invested in me by the Militant Pver Association of America, I ban thee. I ban thee. I ban thee. Furthermore I sentence you to 36 hours of Wizard 101 with my niece. She needs help BEING FORCED TO SIT IN HER CHAIR PLAYING THAT DOGSHIT GAME. But she will submit. It's your job to make it happen. TRY NOT TO FUCK IT UP.

    Your Palia privileges are cut off. If I so much as see you daydreaming about Palia, you're done. DONE. FUCK.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Well.. we will have Palia to play before Pax Dei.
    Notice that we now have a TheoryForge show for Pax Dei, but we don't have one for Palia.

    Throne of Liberty is on my radar - told you there are a bunch on my radar I didn't put in my post.
    I just mentioned a couple that I expect will release and I will play before Ashes releases - and expect to continue playing before Ashes if they are still available whenever Ashes releases.
    So many Westerners seemed to hate the combat for ToL, I'm not sure anyone else in the TheoryForge/DoP Crew community will play ToL for long. Fantmx and Neurotoxin were all <barf>.
    I don't expect to be playing ToL if they aren't playing.

    I'm deifnitely not playing ArcheAge 2.

    HOLY CRAP
    Where did my Switch go???!!!???
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    edited July 2023
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    I think I mostly agree with your description of Ashes.
    Ashes is aimed at hardcore PvPers. PvX really just means that the PvPers who play Ashes will sometimes have to PvE. But, that's really also true for playing on a PvP server in EQ2 and WoW.
    PvX is mostly a meaningless term.

    I think Ashes has a very good chance of maintaining the population numbers Steven hopes for:
    Similar numbers as EvE Online would be great. More would be even better.
    It's just not going to have the diversity of playstyles Steven initially claimed Ashes would support by design.

    Eve pop levels would be bad. There are 10 to 20k online at any given time. It works for Eve but that would only support 4 or 5 servers if they are hoping for 50k per server (I'm obviously estimating)

    It's also a population level that led to CCP being bought out by Pearl Abyss, so they no longer directly control their fate.

    Alpha 2 will be a good test of player retention.
    And what kind of players login more often.
    Then they might change game pillars too.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Ace1234 wrote: »
    @Depraved
    ashes isnt aimed at pve players. its aimed at pvp players and pvp players dont mind doing pve when it makes you stronger in pvp.

    I've never heard Steven say that was his design goal, so you must be inferring that from the current design mechanics- and if thats the case then its not really fair to make that claim without refuting how the designs that I mentioned above actually support both pve and pvp playstyles to an extent.

    also, all the pve will not just be pve as you will have to compete against other players so that you can do pve.

    Yes, in my above post I mentioned that, it is a risk/reward mechanic. That doesn't mean there isn't more purist pve content, it just means that you will be rewarded if you engage with the riskier content.

    also, you can have pvp players who play casually. and sure there will be a few pvper who prefer an equalized arena so that they have to skip all the farm, but most people dont.

    Ok? That sounds like you support mixed pvx content by that statement. Again, there is nothing wrong with pvx if its a risk/reward mechanic. There can still be pure pvp content even if its not always equalized. Things like arenas and duels, as I mentioned already. That also doesn't mean you cant have fair pvp, it just means you are going to want to be pvping against people at your level of progression.

    some pve only players might benefit from some things and everybody is welcome to play ashes, but they arent even remotely the target audience for the game. and before someone says something like "the game wont survive without pve players" go back to when i said pvp players dont mind doing pve too.


    Based on my previous points, I disagree. There is plenty of content aimed at pve only players, and pvp won't necessarily be forced on pve players, based on the design goal of the corruption system.

    well, have you heard steven say aoc is aimed at pve players? ive heard him say pvp players dont mind doing pve if its tied to pvp, and everybody knows that anyways.

    you can have pure pve and do risk vs reward. thats independand of pvp or pve.

    i dont want equalized arenas, im just saying those people exist.

    what content, specifically, is aimed at pve only players?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Well.. we will have Palia to play before Pax Dei.
    Notice that we now have a TheoryForge show for Pax Dei, but we don't have one for Palia.

    Throne of Liberty is on my radar - told you there are a bunch on my radar I didn't put in my post.
    I just mentioned a couple that I expect will release and I will play before Ashes releases - and expect to continue playing before Ashes if they are still available whenever Ashes releases.
    So many Westerners seemed to hate the combat for ToL, I'm not sure anyone else in the TheoryForge/DoP Crew community will play ToL for long. Fantmx and Neurotoxin were all <barf>.
    I don't expect to be playing ToL if they aren't playing.

    I'm deifnitely not playing ArcheAge 2.

    HOLY CRAP
    Where did my Switch go???!!!???

    Throne and liberty has the dungeons being forced PvP though from what has been talked about and open for limited times.
  • Ace1234Ace1234 Member
    edited July 2023
    @Depraved
    well, have you heard steven say aoc is aimed at pve players? ive heard him say pvp players dont mind doing pve if its tied to pvp, and everybody knows that anyways.


    Nope i've only heard him say that the game is pvx, with a focus on risk/reward and player choice. To me that means he wants to provide players the ability to play the way they want, but they will be rewarded for getting out of their comfort zone. You can have a mixture of both supporting various playstyles, while also rewarding those who engage with game as a whole.

    Regardless of whether you think the pve content is just "making pvp players do some pve" the point is that there is more pve focused content. The moment the content is more pvx, is the moment players are rewarded more. I could say pvx is just "making pve players do some pvp". The point is that there can be more purist content, while also having mixed content available and rewarding those players more.


    you can have pure pve and do risk vs reward. thats independand of pvp or pve.

    Yes, obviously, which is the case already throughout the game. It doesn't exclude the possibility of having additional pvx content that offers an associated reward.

    i dont want equalized arenas, im just saying those people exist.

    Yeah thats more of a sub-section of pvp players. There can still be pvp specific content without appealing to every single whim of every type of pvp player.


    what content, specifically, is aimed at pve only players?

    Any content that isn't specifically pvp, or pvx oriented. If you are relying on the corruptions system, that is intended to be pve content, because pvp is not supposed to be commonplace when corruption is the deterrent being used. Or, even the instanced content could potentially be isolated from being pvx as well, don't know yet for that specific system. Basically, the moment you are flagged for pvp, is the moment it becomes pvp or pvx content, with an associated reward for pvx content.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    pvx doesnt mean you have pve and pvp. it means to do pvp you gotta pve and to do pve you gotta pvp. they are connected. you dont jump from one to another. example of a game not being pvx is nw. you can turn pvp off and just do pve and you can just do territories or opr and not do pve.

    corruption will not deter pvp...its just to deter murderfest in the ow
  • Ace1234Ace1234 Member
    edited July 2023
    @Depraved

    pvx doesnt mean you have pve and pvp. it means to do pvp you gotta pve and to do pve you gotta pvp. they are connected. you dont jump from one to another. example of a game not being pvx is nw. you can turn pvp off and just do pve and you can just do territories or opr and not do pve.


    Yeah, why are you defining it and how does that relate to our discussion of risk/reward? Pvx content adds a layer of risk and complexity to the otherwise independent types of content, and provides an associated reward by engaging with that content. If you want to play a specific way, then don't engage with the more risky content, such as pvp flagged zones, or highly contested bosses. You can rely on the corruptions system to focus on pve content the majority of the time of thats how you want to play.


    corruption will not deter pvp...its just to deter murderfest in the ow

    We are talking about there being content for purist playstyles. If the pvp is consensual in the open world then that is not an issue based on what we are talking about. We are talking about pve players being forced to pvp, in which case corruption is intended to be a deterrent for that.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    @Noaani pls
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?

    If it is hard pve and competitive pvp, pvp should be more difficult as long as there is enough competition to bring it to that level and design is well thought out enough.

    As far as promises, I feel everyone filled in the blanks based on past experiences and each person as their own idea on what they felt Steven meant. From what i gathered is aims for difficult PvE though i did not see a mention on how that would be achieved). And scaling difficulty in dungeons based on players in a way were they aren't' just sponges, as well as random mechanics in dungeons is something i kind of think i heard.

    Though random to me can be broken down in if you have seen it before you know what to expect. For judgement i need to see more of a game before i can judge it meeting my own level of difficulty .

    There reliance on designing the game for groups is naturally going to create more difficulty, even more so for solo players. And they did shown some basic designs with the boss battle having mechanics. I feel it is a wait and see thing, and either way people will complain.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?

    If it is hard pve and competitive pvp, pvp should be more difficult as long as there is enough competition to bring it to that level and design is well thought out enough.

    As far as promises, I feel everyone filled in the blanks based on past experiences and each person as their own idea on what they felt Steven meant. From what i gathered is aims for difficult PvE though i did not see a mention on how that would be achieved). And scaling difficulty in dungeons based on players in a way were they aren't' just sponges, as well as random mechanics in dungeons is something i kind of think i heard.

    Though random to me can be broken down in if you have seen it before you know what to expect. For judgement i need to see more of a game before i can judge it meeting my own level of difficulty .

    There reliance on designing the game for groups is naturally going to create more difficulty, even more so for solo players. And they did shown some basic designs with the boss battle having mechanics. I feel it is a wait and see thing, and either way people will complain.

    Alright, it sounds like you would need to read the Wiki. I tried to find the quotes for you, but the ones about bosses and the ways they want to build them are spread out, or have been changed or updated, I think.

    I understand that this is how you view random, and I don't wish to discuss it. I've made a post in the Boss Mechanics thread that you can reference if you wanted to have a better understanding of my perspective for some reason.

    Just search forums for 'Karkinos' if you care.

    We already know we disagree, so there's not much to go with there. I was just making a joke about WoW mostly and sort of an in-joke supporting Steven's goals as I understood them.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?

    If it is hard pve and competitive pvp, pvp should be more difficult as long as there is enough competition to bring it to that level and design is well thought out enough.

    As far as promises, I feel everyone filled in the blanks based on past experiences and each person as their own idea on what they felt Steven meant. From what i gathered is aims for difficult PvE though i did not see a mention on how that would be achieved). And scaling difficulty in dungeons based on players in a way were they aren't' just sponges, as well as random mechanics in dungeons is something i kind of think i heard.

    Though random to me can be broken down in if you have seen it before you know what to expect. For judgement i need to see more of a game before i can judge it meeting my own level of difficulty .

    There reliance on designing the game for groups is naturally going to create more difficulty, even more so for solo players. And they did shown some basic designs with the boss battle having mechanics. I feel it is a wait and see thing, and either way people will complain.

    Alright, it sounds like you would need to read the Wiki. I tried to find the quotes for you, but the ones about bosses and the ways they want to build them are spread out, or have been changed or updated, I think.

    I understand that this is how you view random, and I don't wish to discuss it. I've made a post in the Boss Mechanics thread that you can reference if you wanted to have a better understanding of my perspective for some reason.

    Just search forums for 'Karkinos' if you care.

    We already know we disagree, so there's not much to go with there. I was just making a joke about WoW mostly and sort of an in-joke supporting Steven's goals as I understood them.

    Its not about what i want or what you want. My point was you term for it might not match them, everyone has their terms on things. And we won't know till they show more content and what types of content they consider difficult. So keeping expectations in check is important, and when we all get the chance, providing feedback they need.

    That is just how i am, i hear what they want but it is too broad so i need to see what they mean from content.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?

    If it is hard pve and competitive pvp, pvp should be more difficult as long as there is enough competition to bring it to that level and design is well thought out enough.

    As far as promises, I feel everyone filled in the blanks based on past experiences and each person as their own idea on what they felt Steven meant. From what i gathered is aims for difficult PvE though i did not see a mention on how that would be achieved). And scaling difficulty in dungeons based on players in a way were they aren't' just sponges, as well as random mechanics in dungeons is something i kind of think i heard.

    Though random to me can be broken down in if you have seen it before you know what to expect. For judgement i need to see more of a game before i can judge it meeting my own level of difficulty .

    There reliance on designing the game for groups is naturally going to create more difficulty, even more so for solo players. And they did shown some basic designs with the boss battle having mechanics. I feel it is a wait and see thing, and either way people will complain.

    Alright, it sounds like you would need to read the Wiki. I tried to find the quotes for you, but the ones about bosses and the ways they want to build them are spread out, or have been changed or updated, I think.

    I understand that this is how you view random, and I don't wish to discuss it. I've made a post in the Boss Mechanics thread that you can reference if you wanted to have a better understanding of my perspective for some reason.

    Just search forums for 'Karkinos' if you care.

    We already know we disagree, so there's not much to go with there. I was just making a joke about WoW mostly and sort of an in-joke supporting Steven's goals as I understood them.

    Its not about what i want or what you want. My point was you term for it might not match them, everyone has their terms on things. And we won't know till they show more content and what types of content they consider difficult. So keeping expectations in check is important, and when we all get the chance, providing feedback they need.

    That is just how i am, i hear what they want but it is too broad so i need to see what they mean from content.

    You were the one that claimed PvP is 'always' more challenging.

    I don't know why, but if this post is in support of that, then ok.

    I'll try not to take your claims so seriously, you should assume. I was making a joke, as you often say I should lighten up when trying to talk with you, presumably so we can get along better.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?

    If it is hard pve and competitive pvp, pvp should be more difficult as long as there is enough competition to bring it to that level and design is well thought out enough.

    As far as promises, I feel everyone filled in the blanks based on past experiences and each person as their own idea on what they felt Steven meant. From what i gathered is aims for difficult PvE though i did not see a mention on how that would be achieved). And scaling difficulty in dungeons based on players in a way were they aren't' just sponges, as well as random mechanics in dungeons is something i kind of think i heard.

    Though random to me can be broken down in if you have seen it before you know what to expect. For judgement i need to see more of a game before i can judge it meeting my own level of difficulty .

    There reliance on designing the game for groups is naturally going to create more difficulty, even more so for solo players. And they did shown some basic designs with the boss battle having mechanics. I feel it is a wait and see thing, and either way people will complain.

    Alright, it sounds like you would need to read the Wiki. I tried to find the quotes for you, but the ones about bosses and the ways they want to build them are spread out, or have been changed or updated, I think.

    I understand that this is how you view random, and I don't wish to discuss it. I've made a post in the Boss Mechanics thread that you can reference if you wanted to have a better understanding of my perspective for some reason.

    Just search forums for 'Karkinos' if you care.

    We already know we disagree, so there's not much to go with there. I was just making a joke about WoW mostly and sort of an in-joke supporting Steven's goals as I understood them.

    Its not about what i want or what you want. My point was you term for it might not match them, everyone has their terms on things. And we won't know till they show more content and what types of content they consider difficult. So keeping expectations in check is important, and when we all get the chance, providing feedback they need.

    That is just how i am, i hear what they want but it is too broad so i need to see what they mean from content.

    You were the one that claimed PvP is 'always' more challenging.

    I don't know why, but if this post is in support of that, then ok.

    I'll try not to take your claims so seriously, you should assume. I was making a joke, as you often say I should lighten up when trying to talk with you, presumably so we can get along better.

    You may be joking but i was being serious in expectations and we won't know until they show it.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?

    If it is hard pve and competitive pvp, pvp should be more difficult as long as there is enough competition to bring it to that level and design is well thought out enough.

    As far as promises, I feel everyone filled in the blanks based on past experiences and each person as their own idea on what they felt Steven meant. From what i gathered is aims for difficult PvE though i did not see a mention on how that would be achieved). And scaling difficulty in dungeons based on players in a way were they aren't' just sponges, as well as random mechanics in dungeons is something i kind of think i heard.

    Though random to me can be broken down in if you have seen it before you know what to expect. For judgement i need to see more of a game before i can judge it meeting my own level of difficulty .

    There reliance on designing the game for groups is naturally going to create more difficulty, even more so for solo players. And they did shown some basic designs with the boss battle having mechanics. I feel it is a wait and see thing, and either way people will complain.

    Alright, it sounds like you would need to read the Wiki. I tried to find the quotes for you, but the ones about bosses and the ways they want to build them are spread out, or have been changed or updated, I think.

    I understand that this is how you view random, and I don't wish to discuss it. I've made a post in the Boss Mechanics thread that you can reference if you wanted to have a better understanding of my perspective for some reason.

    Just search forums for 'Karkinos' if you care.

    We already know we disagree, so there's not much to go with there. I was just making a joke about WoW mostly and sort of an in-joke supporting Steven's goals as I understood them.

    Its not about what i want or what you want. My point was you term for it might not match them, everyone has their terms on things. And we won't know till they show more content and what types of content they consider difficult. So keeping expectations in check is important, and when we all get the chance, providing feedback they need.

    That is just how i am, i hear what they want but it is too broad so i need to see what they mean from content.

    You were the one that claimed PvP is 'always' more challenging.

    I don't know why, but if this post is in support of that, then ok.

    I'll try not to take your claims so seriously, you should assume. I was making a joke, as you often say I should lighten up when trying to talk with you, presumably so we can get along better.

    You may be joking but i was being serious in expectations and we won't know until they show it.

    That's clear now, so you can probably rehash an old argument with Noaani instead since you used a Summoning Jutsu.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    to me PvE is unbareable without the looming threat of potential pvp so yes to me PvP makes PvE more interesting
    If you are talking about just base population/trash mobs - the kind of general mob you would see in an overland situation - I actually agree.

    But then, I don't consider that to be PvE at all. I don't consider it to even be content.

    It is filler.

    Any game developer that points to it and says it is content for players should look for a new career, imo.

    When you get to what *I* consider PvE content, yeah, PvP has no place.

    WoW Raids are also unbearably boring for me, 99%of fights conist of can you follow simple directions in middle of screen you win then congratz.......
    it honost drove me insane how many people died to simple mechanics since u didnt follow a direction lol.

    PvE raids are so scripted you know exactly whats gonna happen because there designed to be fair which basicly boils down being predictable, only pve i can stand were early MMO when there were unpredictable elements but since WoW those have been stripped away to make a rather predictable bland pve experience

    Yup PvP will always be more challenging. Doesn't mean pve won't be fun and figuring out the challenge to the puzzle.

    Hard part if having a group that can do it with the numbers you need and ensuring all them don't mess up what they need to do and mechanics. Besides that you follow the guides / information people have on it and finish it for the normal player. Then rinse and repeat doing the content over and over again.

    Except the Hard PvE which normal players can't clear, of course.

    The same normal players would never win a pvp siege 1000000-1.

    Well sure, I didn't mean to assume anything about your statement.

    Normal PvE is always easier than Hard PvE.
    Normal PvP is always easier than Hard PvP.

    Which one of the two is harder than the other depends on the game and lately PvP has been harder due to the scripted nature of the PvE.

    We have to wait for a game to go back to unscripted PvE for PvE to have a chance to be harder than PvP in most games again.

    Isn't that what the PvE enthusiasts were promised by Steven?

    If it is hard pve and competitive pvp, pvp should be more difficult as long as there is enough competition to bring it to that level and design is well thought out enough.

    As far as promises, I feel everyone filled in the blanks based on past experiences and each person as their own idea on what they felt Steven meant. From what i gathered is aims for difficult PvE though i did not see a mention on how that would be achieved). And scaling difficulty in dungeons based on players in a way were they aren't' just sponges, as well as random mechanics in dungeons is something i kind of think i heard.

    Though random to me can be broken down in if you have seen it before you know what to expect. For judgement i need to see more of a game before i can judge it meeting my own level of difficulty .

    There reliance on designing the game for groups is naturally going to create more difficulty, even more so for solo players. And they did shown some basic designs with the boss battle having mechanics. I feel it is a wait and see thing, and either way people will complain.

    Alright, it sounds like you would need to read the Wiki. I tried to find the quotes for you, but the ones about bosses and the ways they want to build them are spread out, or have been changed or updated, I think.

    I understand that this is how you view random, and I don't wish to discuss it. I've made a post in the Boss Mechanics thread that you can reference if you wanted to have a better understanding of my perspective for some reason.

    Just search forums for 'Karkinos' if you care.

    We already know we disagree, so there's not much to go with there. I was just making a joke about WoW mostly and sort of an in-joke supporting Steven's goals as I understood them.

    Its not about what i want or what you want. My point was you term for it might not match them, everyone has their terms on things. And we won't know till they show more content and what types of content they consider difficult. So keeping expectations in check is important, and when we all get the chance, providing feedback they need.

    That is just how i am, i hear what they want but it is too broad so i need to see what they mean from content.

    You were the one that claimed PvP is 'always' more challenging.

    I don't know why, but if this post is in support of that, then ok.

    I'll try not to take your claims so seriously, you should assume. I was making a joke, as you often say I should lighten up when trying to talk with you, presumably so we can get along better.

    You may be joking but i was being serious in expectations and we won't know until they show it.

    That's clear now, so you can probably rehash an old argument with Noaani instead since you used a Summoning Jutsu.

    Well for him, even side characters have their battles to fight.
  • Depraved wrote: »
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

    PvE can be made to be completed only 50% of time by certain player.
    PvP can be boring if the player always wins or always loses.
    Which is the more rewarding gameplay loop?
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

    PvE can be made to be completed only 50% of time by certain player.
    PvP can be boring if the player always wins or always loses.
    Which is the more rewarding gameplay loop?

    but it is made to be completed, thats my point

    what do you mean by rewarding? pvp gives me 10000 coins and pve just 10?
    im sure people who play rated games do not get bored when they are on a winning streak. im sure lol challengers do not get mad when they win or happy when they lose because they had a winning streak and they were bored and they are glad its over.
  • Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

    PvE can be made to be completed only 50% of time by certain player.
    PvP can be boring if the player always wins or always loses.
    Which is the more rewarding gameplay loop?

    but it is made to be completed, thats my point

    what do you mean by rewarding? pvp gives me 10000 coins and pve just 10?
    im sure people who play rated games do not get bored when they are on a winning streak. im sure lol challengers do not get mad when they win or happy when they lose because they had a winning streak and they were bored and they are glad its over.

    Typically yes, PvE is made to be completable, somehow. Based on posts above, that becomes boring. But only after the player reaches that stage were it has to go through the same experience over and over.
    Variation is important. I think is important in PvP too.
    But for PvE, does it have to be always completable? Because if it is, that causes boredom.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

    PvE can be made to be completed only 50% of time by certain player.
    PvP can be boring if the player always wins or always loses.
    Which is the more rewarding gameplay loop?

    but it is made to be completed, thats my point

    what do you mean by rewarding? pvp gives me 10000 coins and pve just 10?
    im sure people who play rated games do not get bored when they are on a winning streak. im sure lol challengers do not get mad when they win or happy when they lose because they had a winning streak and they were bored and they are glad its over.

    Typically yes, PvE is made to be completable, somehow. Based on posts above, that becomes boring. But only after the player reaches that stage were it has to go through the same experience over and over.
    Variation is important. I think is important in PvP too.
    But for PvE, does it have to be always completable? Because if it is, that causes boredom.

    it always has to be completable...unless you are playing an infinite mode
  • Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

    PvE can be made to be completed only 50% of time by certain player.
    PvP can be boring if the player always wins or always loses.
    Which is the more rewarding gameplay loop?

    but it is made to be completed, thats my point

    what do you mean by rewarding? pvp gives me 10000 coins and pve just 10?
    im sure people who play rated games do not get bored when they are on a winning streak. im sure lol challengers do not get mad when they win or happy when they lose because they had a winning streak and they were bored and they are glad its over.

    Typically yes, PvE is made to be completable, somehow. Based on posts above, that becomes boring. But only after the player reaches that stage were it has to go through the same experience over and over.
    Variation is important. I think is important in PvP too.
    But for PvE, does it have to be always completable? Because if it is, that causes boredom.

    it always has to be completable...unless you are playing an infinite mode

    You can die...
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

    PvE can be made to be completed only 50% of time by certain player.
    PvP can be boring if the player always wins or always loses.
    Which is the more rewarding gameplay loop?

    but it is made to be completed, thats my point

    what do you mean by rewarding? pvp gives me 10000 coins and pve just 10?
    im sure people who play rated games do not get bored when they are on a winning streak. im sure lol challengers do not get mad when they win or happy when they lose because they had a winning streak and they were bored and they are glad its over.

    Typically yes, PvE is made to be completable, somehow. Based on posts above, that becomes boring. But only after the player reaches that stage were it has to go through the same experience over and over.
    Variation is important. I think is important in PvP too.
    But for PvE, does it have to be always completable? Because if it is, that causes boredom.

    it always has to be completable...unless you are playing an infinite mode

    You can die...

    yes, and then try again.
  • Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    pvp will always be more difficult than pve, unless they are both completely rng.
    no matter how hard the pve is, its made in a way that can be completed. you cant make a game that cant be beaten or no one will play it, unless you are doing some endless runer type of training thing.

    on the other hand, pvp isnt designed to be always won, since for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

    PvE can be made to be completed only 50% of time by certain player.
    PvP can be boring if the player always wins or always loses.
    Which is the more rewarding gameplay loop?

    but it is made to be completed, thats my point

    what do you mean by rewarding? pvp gives me 10000 coins and pve just 10?
    im sure people who play rated games do not get bored when they are on a winning streak. im sure lol challengers do not get mad when they win or happy when they lose because they had a winning streak and they were bored and they are glad its over.

    Typically yes, PvE is made to be completable, somehow. Based on posts above, that becomes boring. But only after the player reaches that stage were it has to go through the same experience over and over.
    Variation is important. I think is important in PvP too.
    But for PvE, does it have to be always completable? Because if it is, that causes boredom.

    it always has to be completable...unless you are playing an infinite mode

    You can die...

    yes, and then try again.

    Leveling up your own skills is fun too. Not only leveling the character.
    Not everybody can beat every dungeon. Especially casuals.
    I wouldn't make the game easier to let casuals solo everywhere.
    But they should enjoy the fight which is at their skill level and should have some achievable long term goals.
    Freeholds could have been a nice goal.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    i like leveling my skills and all that.

    casuals != low skills

    point is the game is made to be beaten. you could make an invincible boss and now no one can beat it, but you dont, right? everything can b beaten. tis designed that way. you could also design it for it never to be beaten, but devs dont do that.
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