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Leveling Speed

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Comments

  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    Flanker doesn't back down. He is defending his Point like a good Citizen would defend his own Node. :D
    Flanker wrote: »
    Those who are capable to grind mobs for 16h/day don't know what "giving up" means haha
    Pendragxn wrote: »
    It’s all good I’m just going to hire flanker in-game to talk the enemy to death won’t even need to defend the node :D
    We'd be a great team: I'd talk them to death, you'd flood them with AI comments xD
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  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    More like beating a dead horse but it's slightly entertaining because you think your currently riding off into the sunset :)
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    More like beating a dead horse but it's slightly entertaining because you think your currently riding off into the sunset :)
    We got a reply from Steven today, wouldn't say it's hopeless.

    @Zehlan cutie pie, are you going to answer the question you've been asked or you got a logical checkmate and prefer to just bounce and lurk here rather than talk?
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  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    More like beating a dead horse but it's slightly entertaining because you think your currently riding off into the sunset :)
    We got a reply from Steven today, wouldn't say it's hopeless.

    @Zehlan cutie pie, are you going to answer the question you've been asked or you got a logical checkmate and prefer to just bounce and lurk here rather than talk?

    That's awesome. Official word is the best kind. Steven and his developer style is a big reason why Im here.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    stop whining already, for god's sake
    It isn't whining.

    Whining requires a high pitched sound (as per its definition). If you are associating anyone's post with that tone, then that is on you.

    Again though, the point of my previous post was that if you find yourself often getting in to off topic discussions when you would rather stay on topic, then perhaps you need to reassess your posting style. If people aren't responding to the parts of your posts that you want them to respond to, that is because you are giving them something else that they would either respond to. If you don't give people that, then they can only respond to what's left.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Flanker wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    More like beating a dead horse but it's slightly entertaining because you think your currently riding off into the sunset :)
    We got a reply from Steven today, wouldn't say it's hopeless.

    @Zehlan cutie pie, are you going to answer the question you've been asked or you got a logical checkmate and prefer to just bounce and lurk here rather than talk?

    That's awesome. Official word is the best kind. Steven and his developer style is a big reason why Im here.

    Yeah, sure.

    What Steven has said though is that the plans they have are still basically the same, but that they are going to collect feedback on it.

    Steven also decided to throw in the notion of risk vs reward, which leaves his notion of what risk vs reward actually means. If he is now saying that just time spent can be considered the risk element in risk vs reward, everything he has ever said about PvE risk vs reward is subject to question (subject to outright ridicule, to be honest).

    It's also the reward side of it that he seems to not grasp. Risk vs reward is supposed to be "I risked something in order to get a reward that not everyone will get", which means the basic act of leveling is not subject to risk vs reward, because everyone thst plays the game will hit max level eventually - even if all you do is craft.
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    It isn't whining.
    Flanker wrote: »
    stop whining already, for god's sake
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    It isn't whining.
    Flanker wrote: »
    stop whining already, for god's sake

    For someone that claims they "don't know what "giving up" means haha", you sure seem to have given up.
  • MyosotysMyosotys Member
    edited October 13
    Flanker wrote: »
    For everyone's information:

    Vlhadus asked Steven the question about leveling speed

    Timestamp: 50:35

    Link: https://youtu.be/IBYXJ4bTOLk?feature=shared&t=3035

    Looks like Steven wants leveling grindy and exponential. Exactly how I like it.
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 13
    "Noaani wrote: »
    "For someone that claims they "don't know what "giving up" means haha", you sure seem to have given up.
    Flanker wrote: »
    Nobody cares dude, we are here to talk about leveling, not to listen to you crying and talking about irrelevant topics
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    "Noaani wrote: »
    "For someone that claims they "don't know what "giving up" means haha", you sure seem to have given up.
    Flanker wrote: »
    Nobody cares dude, we are here to talk about leveling, not to listen to you crying and talking about irrelevant topics

    For someone that claims to be wanting to talk about leveling, you sure do seem to be talking a lot about other things.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Looks about on par with what he's gone with before, about 2 months playing 5-6 hours per day. Funny to hear there's push for it to be shorter than that within the dev team itself
  • Flanker wrote: »
    Wiki says the following:

    On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.

    This is equal to ~225 hours to reach level 50. What is your opinion about it? Would you like it to be faster or slower?

    It's a hard one, because slower might chase away a lot of people as they cant see a progression, faster may bore people at max level, so its never as easy as you think get levelling right, slower would work very well if they put in a few milestones between levels, so you get a reward, skill or otherwise say at every 3rd of a level.

    players like to see and feel progression, if tis taking say a working players 3 or 4 days between levels, they will may well stop! don't say they not needed, because they are very much so every players is needed.
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  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Looks about on par with what he's gone with before, about 2 months playing 5-6 hours per day. Funny to hear there's push for it to be shorter than that within the dev team itself
    I mean, what he said is:
    > First ~10-15 levels will be relatively fast (exact number is not known yet), so that people don't suffer at the start ;
    > Reaching level 25 will roughly take 100 hours and the XP curve is not gonna be linear.
    > He prefers it to be in more of a grindy side of things.

    Thoughts:
    > If first ~10-15 levels are fast, 1-25 "roughly takes 100 hours" and XP curve is not linear, I'd actually be surprised to find out that it all somehow magically adds up to ~225 hours, especially taking into account him saying "he prefers it to be somewhat grindy".
    > A curve change from ~10-25/15-25 is clearly not gonna get back to linear after level 25. So if 1-25 takes ~100 hours, I probably wouldn't expect 25-50 to be 125-150 hours. Probably something close to, at least 300h for the whole 1-50.
    > If it's the case, then it's a bit better obviously, but in general - doesn't change the situation dramatically. A few extra weeks or a month for an average player won't really make that huge of a difference in MMO.
    > But if it's the case, still better than nothing
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  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 13
    Nemeses wrote: »
    It's a hard one, because slower might chase away a lot of people as they cant see a progression, faster may bore people at max level, so its never as easy as you think get levelling right, slower would work very well if they put in a few milestones between levels, so you get a reward, skill or otherwise say at every 3rd of a level.

    players like to see and feel progression, if tis taking say a working players 3 or 4 days between levels, they will may well stop! don't say they not needed, because they are very much so every players is needed.
    If people stop because of that fact alone, then apparently they don't need that much of a trigger to stop playing the game. Which means, there is a decent chance they may bounce anyway for any other similar reason.

    Once again, it's not about the game's population - that's only one of the factors. It is also about player retention which is crucial for a subscription-based MMO for the reasons that are so obvious, that I'm still surprised how certain people here still can't understant.

    P.S. We discussed all that already in this thread: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60737/ashes-of-creation-must-dodge-this-bullet#latest
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  • PodgnilPodgnil Member
    edited October 13
    I am quite satisfied with the stated pumping speed. The most important thing is that the world during it is filled with content and content that is quite complex. So that at a conditional level 30, in green clothes, it would be difficult for me to kill mobs equal to me in level, which would encourage me to go to the dungeon a couple of times to dress up a little, then complete some long chain of quests to get a good reward, maybe farm reputation with someone who can sell me current things... That is, I can’t say that long leveling is super cool, and fast leveling is garbage (although I can say that). Leveling up should correspond to the fullness of the world. It shouldn't be boring, there should be intermediate dungeons. and you don’t have to scale them to come back there all the time. It's a great experience to go through a dungeon and forget about it. Perhaps later, when leveling up another character, you will want to return there. Every time I want to go back to play Warcraft, it starts with the fact that I remember the Wallning coverns, Zul'farrak, and other low-level adventures that I want to return to.
    And also, about those who are afraid of falling behind in progress because leveling up will take a lot of time. Сamooone!!, if you have little time you will still fall behind in progress, this is an MMORPG!! not in LVLeng but in clothes, not in clothes but in other aspects on which the high end is tied. For such a casual game there is GW2. This does not mean that you will not be able to play, there will simply be casual guilds, craft guilds. I don't understand People who say 'I'll have 1.5 hours a day three days a week and I don't want to fall behind everyone else.
  • I agree. Make leveling slow and drops rare. Reason being: VALUE!

    Easy and fast stuff has less value. Mobs shall be hard and exploring the world shall be a valuable experience and an adventure to remember.

    Please consider a slow and challenging progress.

  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    Alright, I gave it a chance and actually read all of it. Haven't learned anything I didn't know already, but the funny thing begins now.

    You are obviously going to bounce and won't give an answer to this (and entertain me again by saying something unimaginably stupid), but here is the question: can you specify which part exactly was supposed to prove that my calculations are not valid?

    And now, let me enjoy and see you bounce. Why? Because apparently, you thought that I would either ignore it, not understand what's written there or get overwhelmed by a couple of "scary-looking mathematical formulas". Well, guess again.

    Can't wait for your answer.
    Flanker wrote: »
    P.S. You don't wanna bounce again and make yourself even more of a clown that you already are, don't you?

    P.S.S. Come debate me 1v1 face-to-face. With that"logic" of yours, I'll steamroll you (obviously, in a polite and respectful way) in 10 minutes and you'll be free to go.
    Flanker wrote: »
    @Zehlan cutie pie, are you going to answer the question you've been asked or you got a logical checkmate and prefer to just bounce and lurk here rather than talk?

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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    For everyone's information:

    Vlhadus asked Steven the question about leveling speed

    Timestamp: 50:35

    Link: https://youtu.be/IBYXJ4bTOLk?feature=shared&t=3035
    Yeah. Steven said what I said.
    Better feedback comes after we have a chance to the current design.
    Especially vs "Intrepid must do this in order to avoid this bullet."
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Yeah. Steven said what I said.
    A more accurate description of this would be "Steven said several things, but I've only heard one that sounds similar to what I said" xD
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  • RoykoRoyko Member, Alpha Two
    Slower preferably, definatly not faster atleast.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 13
    Flanker wrote: »
    A more accurate description of this would be "Steven said several things, but I've only heard one that sounds similar to what I said" xD
    He said all the several things I said. And all the stuff that's in the wiki.
    You are correct that I did not hear him say "I would be OK if it took 3 months or 25 months or infinite months to reach Level 25 Adventurer."

  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    My take away from what Steven said was that level 25-50 are still in the neighborhood of unknown and there are different opinions/debates on leveling within Intrepid.

    Generally their 225 hour statement may be true, but with all things AoC, this is an Alpha and is subject to change. It doesn’t sound like leveling speed is one of those unchanging elements. For Alpha 2, however, it’s looking like we’ll get an indication up to level 25, and we’ll have to see what tweaks come from that.

    We do know nonlinear leveling is part of the design. I think most players will want to get to their secondary archetype augments sooner rather than later. 100 hours to get to that point would seem to be a decent time to learn or relearn your skills and combos. I think there also needs to be enough of a time sink to support the lower level gear economy. So as we test, they should get feedback on whether or not those lower levels of crafting feel right. Guess the same would apply to other level experiences than the character power level. I hope they experiment in alpha 2 to find that sweet spot.

    I thing Dygz’s concern for Hell levels may still exist, at least at the higher levels which it will be a while before we get the opportunity to test. Really depends on decisions they make going forward. We know individuals on the team were involved in creating the games he experienced these Hell levels, and they seem to have a nostalgic view.

    The complicating factor in leveling speed, especially as you get into higher levels of play, is the XP penalty for death. That will be different for each player, and the PVX nature of the game may compound that. A strong PVE player, but weak PVP player, or vice versa, may collect a significant XP debt that slows progression. That could be another version of Hell levels. A lot of that would depend on whether you can choose to play exclusively PVE or PVP. Design goals is to build community and have player friction. It’s going to be a while before we can test this.

    So the 225 average can also be expressed as an average of averages. Different players will experience different leveling speeds. Oddly enough, that speed may be faster for those who desire slower speeds due to their leveling efficiency, or slower for those who desire a faster leveling speed for similar reasons. I don’t envy Intrepid on player satisfaction on this point.
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    The complicating factor in leveling speed, especially as you get into higher levels of play, is the XP penalty for death.
    Seen that in Lineage 2 on official servers (where reaching the level cap took roughly ~2.5 - 3 years of playing 8-12h/day. Death penalty was very punishing, but people found a solution: there were healers who could come and res you (and also recover 80% of lost XP by doing so). Alternatively, it could be anyone who had a Blessed Scroll of Resurrection (that recovers 100% of XP). That worked in majority of cases.
    Generally their 225 hour statement may be true, but with all things AoC, this is an Alpha and is subject to change.
    I'd be actually surprised if it's still the case, even at this point. Because if it's true, then 1-25 takes 100 hours and 25-50 takes what? The remaining 125 hours?

    Even if you make a very wrong calculation and assume that each level from 1-25 takes an equal amount of time, it would be 4 hours per level. Obviously, it's not the case and we know that first 10-15 levels will be fast the remaining 10-15 levels will take more time. So 24-25 alone can take somewhere around 6-8 hours. Even if you take the bare minimum of 6h and wrongfully assume that all levels from 25-50 take 6h each - then it would already be ~150 hours. But once again, we know it can't be that way and every new level will require more time. As a result, I'm pretty skeptical that 225h is still valid, but we shall see.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm not really concerned about Hell Levels for 225 hours to Level 50.
    I am concerned when it's systemically restricted 450 hours minimum or 4 months or 6 months or 50 months or infinite months to Level 50.
    Reaching Level 50 Adventurer in Ashes is not the end of Leveling - there are other progression paths besides Adventurer.
  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
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    Ah flanker you miss me so much you are now just posting about me QQ I wasn't going to post anything after the video I think Steven summed it up pretty good! Plus it is called a job flanker and responsibilities I swear your like the having a third child but with high functioning autism.

    Thoughts:
    > If first ~10-15 levels are fast, 1-25 "roughly takes 100 hours" and XP curve is not linear, I'd actually be surprised to find out that it all somehow magically adds up to ~225 hours, especially taking into account him saying "he prefers it to be somewhat grindy".
    > A curve change from ~10-25/15-25 is clearly not gonna get back to linear after level 25. So if 1-25 takes ~100 hours, I probably wouldn't expect 25-50 to be 125-150 hours. Probably something close to, at least 300h for the whole 1-50.
    > If it's the case, then it's a bit better obviously, but in general - doesn't change the situation dramatically. A few extra weeks or a month for an average player won't really make that huge of a difference in MMO.
    > But if it's the case, still better than nothing[/b][/quote]

    Glad to see you found a paper bag to breath into and calm down. As for your thoughts wait for it I agree pretty much although I said before probably a +/- 50 hour variable which put it about 275 total but I could now see 300ish is probably more realistic after hearing Steven. Remember though this is the players who are racing to this finish not the regular player who is crafting, exploring and otherwise trying to enjoy the game even if they are playing 30 to 40 hours a week for them I would say at least double that estimate!

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  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Zehlan wrote: »
    Ah flanker you miss me so much
    Of course!

    You know what else do I miss?

    The answer to the question I've asked you 4 times already and it's the 5th one, that you are clearly not capable of providing. Is that true, huh?
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  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    Zehlan wrote: »
    Ah flanker you miss me so much
    Of course!

    You know what else do I miss?

    The answer to the question I've asked you 4 times already and it's the 5th one, that you are clearly not capable of providing. Is that true, huh?

    I don't answer your questions because your replies are usually you took my words out of context or you manipulated the question. Plus I find your questions are usually nothing more than diversions a simple attempt to pull someone away from a flawed argument not a bad tactic but time consuming. I don't wish to engage in that I have way to much going on atm to waste my time on it otherwise I would especially a verbal one. I think you also miss the point when I say majority because if the majority after alpha 2 said we want level to take 3 time as long as it will currently I would be fine with that because the people have spoken. How long levelling is in a game is not what retains the most amount of players it's what levelling speed the most amount of players want that retains the most players because if they don't wanna play how do you retain them. I think you have lost sight of the MMO part of mmorpg. Players make the content the game is just the car we're all just riding in!

    If your question is do I want a 1v1 debate I am not interested at the moment but once things settle down for me and we get to play some alpha 2 I would be up for a discussion. That's the real conversation we all will need to have anyway , everything else right now is just speculation.

  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Zehlan wrote: »
    I don't answer your questions because your replies are usually you took my words out of context or you manipulated the question. Plus I find your questions are usually nothing more than diversions a simple attempt to pull someone away from a flawed argument not a bad tactic but time consuming. I don't wish to engage in that I have way to much going on atm to waste my time on it otherwise I would especially a verbal one. I think you also miss the point when I say majority because if the majority after alpha 2 said we want level to take 3 time as long as it will currently I would be fine with that because the people have spoken. How long levelling is in a game is not what retains the most amount of players it's what levelling speed the most amount of players want that retains the most players because if they don't wanna play how do you retain them. I think you have lost sight of the MMO part of mmorpg. Players make the content the game is just the car we're all just riding in!

    If your question is do I want a 1v1 debate I am not interested at the moment but once things settle down for me and we get to play some alpha 2 I would be up for a discussion. That's the real conversation we all will need to have anyway , everything else right now is just speculation.
    Bla-bla-bla, point proven. You've sent a random PDF you found online with the level of understanding about what's written there close to non-existent and threw it in, thinking that it somehow proves your point. Little did you know, that I will read it and ask you a simple question about it.

    But here you are, not capable of answering it and finally coming up with a lame excuse after the 5th time you've been asked to give an answer.

    How do I know that this is a bs excuse? Very simple: instead of writing it, you could have simply given an answer - you didn't. And your "limited time" is another bs - there is a thing called "Last active" on your profile. You've been on the forum multiple times since I asked you the question. And you've spent time here.

    > Debunked your nonsense again
    > Debunked your lame excuse again
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  • Slow leveling will be great as long as the game is fun to play!
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