Health bar should be removed and here is why

Based on what we know at the moment, flagging & corruption system seems to be pretty decent. It is an enhanced version of Lineage 2 system with several reasonable adjustments made to significantly mitigate the risk of griefing. However, there is one more potential issue that needs to be addressed.

Currently, it is to possible to see the health bar of a player even if he is not a member of your group or raid, which can inadvertently aid griefers and turn healthy competition for bosses or locations into... ratting competition. For instance, a griefer could intentionally keep a player's HP low, while having little to no risk of killing that player. This tactic becomes particularly effective during moments when a party is engaged with a group of mobs; the griefer can focus on the tank or healer. This can still be achieved, even if only you can only see the segments on a health bar, especially with some practice.

If, however, players' health bars were only visible to their own party or raid members, this issue could be mitigated. This change would also open strategic possibilities like deliberately maintaining low HP to bait enemies. Upon being attacked and accidentally killed, a player could retaliate against their attacker who turns red without facing any penalties, potentially leading to the agressor dropping their gear upon defeat. In this scenario, both parties face a balanced mix of risk and reward, significantly reducing the likelihood of griefing.

In my opinion, this is the final adjustment needed to perfect the existing flagging and corruption system, making it truly balanced.
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UPDATE

Azherae wrote: »

Corrupted/Combatant player HP is visible, nonCombatant player HP isn't.

Still the best idea so far. In addition to that:
a) Make HP bars of your guild members visible
b) (Maybe) Make HP bars of players from your alliance visible

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Comments

Laetitian

Context:

Flanker wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Anyways this seems really simple to me.

Corrupted/Combatant player HP is visible, nonCombatant player HP isn't.

6 pages later and finally I can see a decent alternative option that can satisfy both sides

Flanker wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

Well, since we're already addressing talking points that should have been brought up much earlier...I'm a healer main. How am I supposed to support allies who aren't directly affiliated with me, if I can't see a difference between them being at 1% HP or 99% - perhaps even 100%?

Invite them to your group/raid obviously?
Or maybe they can make HP bars of guild/alliance members visible

Hence my word choice "affiliated."
I think the prejudice the average party **already** has against coordinating and cooperating with people who aren't part of their guild or party tend to be strictly negative for achieving common goals in larger groups. I don't think the game needs to incentivise this bias further.

Pyrolol

Azherae wrote: »

Anyways this seems really simple to me.

Corrupted/Combatant player HP is visible, nonCombatant player HP isn't.

I mean, this is a pretty good compromise
Just to go into detail for this

Is it corrupted players you see 100% health bar and non corrupted you see the current quarterly health bar?

Flanker

Pyrolol wrote: »

I mean, this is a pretty good compromise
Just to go into detail for this

Is it corrupted players you see 100% health bar and non corrupted you see the current quarterly health bar?

Depends on what kind "non corrupt" state the player has.
Green (non combatant) = HP invisible
Purple (combatant) = HP visible

Diamaht

Flanker wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

I mean, this is a pretty good compromise
Just to go into detail for this

Is it corrupted players you see 100% health bar and non corrupted you see the current quarterly health bar?

Depends on what kind "non corrupt" state the player has.
Green (non combatant) = HP invisible
Purple (combatant) = HP visible

The important thing is for the corruption system to stand on it's own two feet. If something about it doesn't work, then the system itself gets changed, not the entire game.

Flanker

Diamaht wrote: »

The important thing is for the corruption system to stand on it's own two feet. If something about it doesn't work, then the system itself gets changed, not the entire game.

Uhm...? How is the corruption system affected by that?

Mag7spy

Flanker wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

The important thing is for the corruption system to stand on it's own two feet. If something about it doesn't work, then the system itself gets changed, not the entire game.

Uhm...? How is the corruption system affected by that?

I'm fairly certain he doesn't agree with Azherae suggestion and feels you should see heath bars.

Pyrolol

Flanker wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

I mean, this is a pretty good compromise
Just to go into detail for this

Is it corrupted players you see 100% health bar and non corrupted you see the current quarterly health bar?

Depends on what kind "non corrupt" state the player has.
Green (non combatant) = HP invisible
Purple (combatant) = HP visible

Yeah i knew this bit
My question I was asking was a (Corrupted) player will have 100% percentages & information shown?

And a non corrupted would show the quarterly?

Diamaht

Mag7spy wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

The important thing is for the corruption system to stand on it's own two feet. If something about it doesn't work, then the system itself gets changed, not the entire game.

Uhm...? How is the corruption system affected by that?

I'm fairly certain he doesn't agree with Azherae suggestion and feels you should see heath bars.

I'm saying if the HP bars on or off are part of the flagging system only. And on by default in all other pvp and pve scenarios then thats a start.

But im with Pyrolol and would favor segmented while flagged instead of no bars at all.

Edit: I'm not sure they'll do multiple hp bar systems but if they do wonderful

Nightmarelol

Removing HP bars from World PvP (assuming
your not talking about Arena or Battlegrounds) I feel will encourage a lot of people to just “tap and run” trying to guess what HP the enemy, and this can lead to long drawn out PvP fights of people running away. I’m getting too old to chase people for hours on end 😂

Arya_Yeshe

The reasons you've given for hiding the health bars seem a bit feeble to me

A legitimate rationale for concealing health bars would be to enhance the overall enjoyment of the game!

Simply hide the health bars of non-party members, and only reveal them when you're within a certain proximity to the target. If someone in your party gets within, let's say, 4 feet of the target, then the target's health bar gets displayed for the entire party to see!

People will be constantly alert, changing targets quickly, calling new shots, will be making split-second decisions and shouting in coms. Battles will be thrilling and intense, with every individual fully engaged in the fight

Show the health bar only after a person fully commits to the fight and is within arm's reach. That should work just fine

Depraved

Flanker wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Anyways this seems really simple to me.

Corrupted/Combatant player HP is visible, nonCombatant player HP isn't.

6 pages later and finally I can see a decent alternative option that can satisfy both sides

bad idea

Depraved

Flanker wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Perfect, if we are back to seeing hp bars during pvp that doesn't involve the flagging system then amazing.

Yes, that's exactly it. Those who want to see HP bars during PvP will still see them. Those who want to harass players who don't to fight back won't be able to do it without risk.

but the green player will be able to see the purple player hp...in many cases where the green player would fight back, now he wont for the reasons i mentioned before...so problem not solved. still less pvp.

also, just because you try to kill someone using mobs, doesnt mean you are in the wrong. you dont know the full story. tis possible that the person being attacked tried to do the same thing on the attacker first, or maybe ganked or zergued him before and now tis the attackers turn to fight back.

Diamaht

Depraved wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Perfect, if we are back to seeing hp bars during pvp that doesn't involve the flagging system then amazing.

Yes, that's exactly it. Those who want to see HP bars during PvP will still see them. Those who want to harass players who don't to fight back won't be able to do it without risk.

but the green player will be able to see the purple player hp...in many cases where the green player would fight back, now he wont for the reasons i mentioned before...so problem not solved. still less pvp.

also, just because you try to kill someone using mobs, doesnt mean you are in the wrong. you dont know the full story. tis possible that the person being attacked tried to do the same thing on the attacker first, or maybe ganked or zergued him before and now tis the attackers turn to fight back.

But it does solve the OPs original complaint of using HP to grief. In your example the attacker is still the aggressor. A revenge gank is still a gank, he should fall under the same rule set.

I'm not a huge fan of it either, I think they should both see HP bars, but if we have a scenerio where we simply must hide info, this at least is something I can choose to, or not to, engage with.

Diamaht

Mag7spy wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

It looks like it’s quarterly health bars confirmed and probably how it’s going to stay

It honestly just takes something away from the whole experience.

how? if oyu pvp someone it takes 3 nukes to kill that person, next time you pvp them, or pvp anothe rperson using the same class, same gear and same level, it will take 3 nukes to kill that person. the amount of damage you do is not important, the amount of hits you need is important.

you will still be able to see their nameplates degrading so you will know how many more hits you need to kill them, based on their degradation rate form your previous hits. you just wanna see if they are low so you dont waste a cooldown, which is intended as steven explained during the last caravan stream. you have to judge whether you want to use a powerful skill on someone who is dying or not.

also, there isnt any evidence that you will play better because you can see the enemy hp. if you look at league or dota for example, the majority of players use their ultimate when their enemy is at 1 health instead of using a basic skill XD that is extremely common among players who arent pro.

just because you can see the enemy hp doesnt mean you will automatically make better choices.

What do you mean how? I push a button and the game doesn't show me what happens to my target. Eventually when I push enough buttons the game will vaguely update me about what happened, but not entirely because it's important that I not know precisely what's happening when its happening. Explain the appeal of that too me.

Now if I where to say study wiki pages and other online tools to know how much Hp a person should have at all levels and for all classes, I could then, with enough study and time, know about how much hp the person I'm fighting should have. And if I then track all of the damage for all the people I'm fighting in my head (along with all the damage all of my group mates are doing to all of their targets), I should then have a vague idea of what is happening on the battle field at any given time. Roughly...

Sectioned HP bars give a rough idea, but it only mitigates the problem, doesn't solve it. And if they section it to 1/8th or 1/16th, whats the point of having the sections?

The game showed you you missed or you hit them for whatever amount of dmg. So it shows you what is happening to your target.

The only argument you are making is you want to know when someone is almost dead to throw all your strongest CDs at them to confirm, stun, etc.

People here are making a argument they don't want to you show those stats because people will view the hp and try to feed someone to a mob to avoid corruption punishment,

Nikr made a point about knowledge is skill and understanding, and you are effectively complaining about needing to use that element of skill and don't want to do it.

Either way based on the loot in this game that drops, things will be tested in A2 I'm sure things will stay as they are. I hope the same people don't complain about being fed to mobs. Personally im for elements being more harsh in the corruption system so if you try to feed someone to mobs you end up corrupted if you have done significant dmg when they died.

Also the HP bar should only update when you hit them for a slight time before being unknown again to the player. Being tab locked to a player target should show you no information until you hit them and then fade away in a second.

Too reductive and false. If you want open world pvp you are going to have deal with open world pvp.

Hiding info about your status is a system you are familiar with and you see ways you came game it to your benefit. It's creates a moat between you and anyone else that doesn't play as much as you. Why do you require that moat?

None of you have described how this gives a better game experience. I don't think you can.

To make this clear, you have no issue if i feed you to mobs multiple times and get your loot without being corrupted because that is pvp?

With this one my reply didn't make sence because I was doing it on my phone and meant to reply to something different.

My mistake Mag for making the mess of posts more confusing.

Pyrolol

This whole thread is a mess 😂

Diamaht

Pyrolol wrote: »

This whole thread is a mess 😂

Oh it's flying in all directions lol

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

Now the question is, when risk becomes something that doesn't stop other players from impacting your gameplay in a negative and harassing and repetitive manner. The motivation to do that action is less about their personal advancement and more about impacting your gameplay, because when they elicit the response of anger or rage from the player, they feel a sense of accomplishment. That in my opinion is what griefing is. It is outside of the expectation of the gameplay behavior that is communicated in the design philosophy.[1] – Steven Sharif

That is the crux of the issue imo. What's the extent of "impacting another person's gameplay"? Is it 1 minute? 5? 10? Could it apply to several people at the same time, 1 minute each?

This is what I meant when I said that feedback could influence Steven. Obviously majority of normal people would see the topic of this thread as harassment, because the attacker is simply there to try and NOT kill the victim themselves, but get them killed still. And quite a lot of such griefers get off on the fact that they prevent their victim from gameplay (exactly the "harassment" as stated by Steven). But the current system allows for this, and imo visible hp even encourages it.

So the feedback from that majority of normal players is "ay, this system seems to encourage harassment! Change it", and in this context this would definitely be a valid piece of feedback, which is why I think that Steven might listen to it and try "fixing" the system.

But I do agree with Azherae's super fucking obvious solution that none of us, for some dumb reason, hadn't come up with before. Invisible green hp solves my issue, so that's now my main feedback for Intrepid.

Noaani wrote: »

The thing is, it's the same thing as a group of friends investing in a throw away character to be a corruption sponge. Both are simply an investment in something that is less than ideal in order to achieve a singular goal.

Again, I've known people that did precisely that, for the intrinsic purpose of "I'm just gonna mess with people during my off time". And they spend weeks both preparing that char and then participating in their preferred gameplay (and resolving the accidental consequences of it). I think you're just not that kind of person, which is why it seems so alien to you that someone would "waste" their time doing this just to mess with people.

Noaani wrote: »

What I don't get is why you think someone putting all of that effort in to annoying a player in this manner wouldn't be able to perform basic math. I mean, all you need to do is attack a player you are confident is at full health and seem to run off (remember, we are talking about shit players here). Watch how long it takes before they attack a mob, and you know that is how long it takes their regen to make up the amount of damage of that ability. Thus, once they finish a fight and start their regen before the next, simply use that ability that often, and they will remain at about that same HP level.

This is precisely what I've been saying from the start

I'm fine with those who put in the effort and have the understanding/knowledge to pull of this exploit with invisible hp.

So like I said above, Azherae's solution would be completely fine with me, even though it obviously doesn't prevent the people you described here from doing this exploit. It will simply take some effort and skill to execute. Obviously this lvl of skill seems super basic and obvious to you, but don't forget that you're way more skilled than majority of people, so your pov is skewed towards seeing most mechanics as simplistic and see people who find them hard lowskill.

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

but the green player will be able to see the purple player hp...in many cases where the green player would fight back, now he wont for the reasons i mentioned before...so problem not solved. still less pvp.

I feel like it wouldn't influence their decision making as much. Though I feel that only because I assume that majority of attackers are at 100%, so deciding whether to fight back only depends on the thought of "can I take him on at his full hp?"

I think Azherae's solution is as best as we'll get as a compromise for both sides.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Again, I've known people that did precisely that, for the intrinsic purpose of "I'm just gonna mess with people during my off time".

I've known many people that enjoy this kind of thing to.

The thing with these people is that they will always take the easiest path to mess with people.

What you are talking about is absolutely not the easiest path.

This is precisely what I've been saying from the start I'm fine with those who put in the effort and have the understanding/knowledge to pull of this exploit with invisible hp.

But that is less effort. You don't need to build your character specifically to do it - at least in part.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

What you are talking about is absolutely not the easiest path.

But is the impact of other methods as big as "I keep hitting you and you can't do anything to me"? This method also doesn't require you to be way stronger than the victim, so it's not like you could easily outfarm them in pve or anything like that.

Noaani wrote: »

But that is less effort. You don't need to build your character specifically to do it - at least in part.

I mentioned making a separate character because that's usually the way to avoid being super obvious about who you are. Server rep and all that. If you're known to be a weakling harasser - you won't be liked on your server.

Well, again, in my experience.

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