Remove the Health indicators completely in not in group, raid, or guild. For PVP, think of first person shooters, like CoD. You don't see their health bar...you shoot them until they die Besides, If I wanted to grief somebody fighting a hard mob, I just plink them until they are very low and let the mob kill them, if they try to run, I just cc them so the mob can finish them off. If I can't see the health, I may decide it is not worth the risk of corruption - having no clue where they are at health wise.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Didn`t have health bars in L2 with the same pvp system. Was not necessary then, don`t see any good arguments for it required now.
Much prefer people learn the game and become successful by developing a sense for their own character`s ability and its impact on others than just reading a bar.
Didn`t have health bars in L2 with the same pvp system. Was not necessary then, don`t see any good arguments for it required now.
Much prefer people learn the game and become successful by developing a sense for their own character`s ability and its impact on others than just reading a bar.
Please remind me what version it was when L2 stopped dropping meaningful amounts of resources and things like that, on player death.
The internet at large tends to be unreliable about data for older MMOs, so I prefer to rely on experienced players.
Remove the Health indicators completely in not in group, raid, or guild. For PVP, think of first person shooters, like CoD. You don't see their health bar...you shoot them until they die Besides, If I wanted to grief somebody fighting a hard mob, I just plink them until they are very low and let the mob kill them, if they try to run, I just cc them so the mob can finish them off. If I can't see the health, I may decide it is not worth the risk of corruption - having no clue where they are at health wise.
You can't cc greens so that is one of the good things they decided on.
lack of health bars in a PVP oriented game is a bad idea.
How can you make informed decisions on how to fight if you have zero idea on how much hit points someone has?
the statement I read "you should know what your abilities do" or "you should know how much health a player has" is telling of a complete lack of PVP experience .
how would one know if the target is being healed, attacked by other players, or used a health pot? let alone using any defensive cool downs or buffs?
Also what if I see a player in the world who actually needs help? I have no idea because I cant see their hit points to know if they need a heal.
What if I am fighting two people and I need to know who is getting lower faster so I can make a swap to kill someone?
If I am unable to see my target's hit points how am I to make a decision on when to crowd control their healer to secure a kill?
None of these points I have seen brought up.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Didn`t have health bars in L2 with the same pvp system. Was not necessary then, don`t see any good arguments for it required now.
Much prefer people learn the game and become successful by developing a sense for their own character`s ability and its impact on others than just reading a bar.
Please remind me what version it was when L2 stopped dropping meaningful amounts of resources and things like that, on player death.
The internet at large tends to be unreliable about data for older MMOs, so I prefer to rely on experienced players.
In 2004, during the open beta phase of the game, I experienced frequent losses of key gear due to being player-killed (pk'd) and deaths to mobs.
Looking back at screenshots, it was probably around 2005-2006, approximately a year to two after the game officially launched, that was the last time I remember losing gear in player versus environment (pve) situations. Specifically, in Cruma Tower, I lost my gear due to accidental mob deaths. And memorable as it was key gear lost to a farmer.
Regarding player versus player (pvp) encounters, if flagged as a red player, I continued to lose most of my gear upon death, especially up until around 2010. There after only logged on a couple of times to say hi.
Based on what we know at the moment, flagging & corruption system seems to be pretty decent. It is an enhanced version of Lineage 2 system with several reasonable adjustments made to significantly mitigate the risk of griefing. However, there is one more potential issue that needs to be addressed.
Currently, it is to possible to see the health bar of a player even if he is not a member of your group or raid, which can inadvertently aid griefers and turn healthy competition for bosses or locations into... ratting competition. For instance, a griefer could intentionally keep a player's HP low, while having little to no risk of killing that player. This tactic becomes particularly effective during moments when a party is engaged with a group of mobs; the griefer can focus on the tank or healer. This can still be achieved, even if only you can only see the segments on a health bar, especially with some practice.
If, however, players' health bars were only visible to their own party or raid members, this issue could be mitigated. This change would also open strategic possibilities like deliberately maintaining low HP to bait enemies. Upon being attacked and accidentally killed, a player could retaliate against their attacker who turns red without facing any penalties, potentially leading to the agressor dropping their gear upon defeat. In this scenario, both parties face a balanced mix of risk and reward, significantly reducing the likelihood of griefing.
In my opinion, this is the final adjustment needed to perfect the existing flagging and corruption system, making it truly balanced.
====================== UPDATE
Corrupted/Combatant player HP is visible, nonCombatant player HP isn't.
Still the best idea so far. In addition to that:
a) Make HP bars of your guild members visible
b) (Maybe) Make HP bars of players from your alliance visible
Agree. I'd like also hidden level for none members of your group. The skins/gear should give enough information about the power of a player. That's also why I don't like anarchic cosmetics that give the appearance of a donkey to a crocodile.
In 2004, during the open beta phase of the game, I experienced frequent losses of key gear due to being player-killed (pk'd) and deaths to mobs.
Looking back at screenshots, it was probably around 2005-2006, approximately a year to two after the game officially launched, that was the last time I remember losing gear in player versus environment (pve) situations. Specifically, in Cruma Tower, I lost my gear due to accidental mob deaths. And memorable as it was key gear lost to a farmer.
Regarding player versus player (pvp) encounters, if flagged as a red player, I continued to lose most of my gear upon death, especially up until around 2010. There after only logged on a couple of times to say hi.
It happened on Lineage 2 Classic servers as well as they started from the earliest patches
If we hide hp pools we should probably hide class icons, spell effects, weapon types, gear, etc.
I probably wouldn't mix it, as it might be a topic for a different discussion.[/quo9
It's a joke.
The argument for hiding seems to be either based on a perceived skill in knowing hp values and/or the ability to avoid corruption via using mobs. Hiding gear, spells, etc all achieves the same things things as the arguments for hp, so why not hide all of it!
You say its a joke but you are still going it it even though you know the clear connection people are trying to make keeping people at low hp to escape corruption.
Onto your joke points, yes you shouldn't be able to view some ones gear, skills, build, etc by clicking on them.
Should you even be able to see their gear? How about a clown suit skin shown for every player not in your group?
If someone is keeping you at low hp you can either call a friend to help you kill them or simply move to somewhere else. Frankly it isn't going to be as large of an issue as you are making it out to be. That in addition to the negative effect on group combat make hiding hp values a poor design choice.
You are underestimating pvpers, People make montages of doing this. If it is effective expect people to do this constantly.
Going on the assumption you think people won't remove some piece of gear and keep you low is silly. You drop mats on death, that is easy money.
What percentage of open world kills involves the people making montages? These are cherry picked examples of this and hyperbolic in nature. Again this is easily countered by typing in zone chat, "player x camping me, can I get a bounty hunter."
To design your game around hyperbole is an effort in futility.
You are only confirming you don't understand how pvpers are lol. Videos is the most easy way to show that isn't a niche concept and to show people do it.
You are giving a lot fo feed bac to confirm lack of pvp experience with current games as well. How is a BH going to help when there are no red players for a BH to fight. So you are going to yell in open world and home someone helps you every time they try to feed you to mobs. That is kind of funny.
As i said before ill repeat, feeding people to mobs was common practice, this is not exclusive to making montages it was a meta to reduce karma loss and to make who you were fighting lose money and XP.
This is the thing where people that have not played pvp mmorpgs in like the last 8 years do not understand how players will be and are naïve to the levels that are goings to happen in the game between large guilds and pvp players.
Again I'll ask: what percentage of open world kills use mobs to avoid corruption?
BH act as an imperfect peacekeeping force. Asking them for help whether be in game, through discord, or any other communication means is part of their gameplay loop. Yes people will ask them for help, and yes they will take time to respond. Part of the fun of Ashes is having areas in the game world where lawless actions can take place. Its up to the players to know where such actions can take place and act accordingly.
Will people use mobs to kill players? Absolutely. The question is whether its worth making the combat worse by hiding health bars for something that occurs a small percentage of the time, and leads to other engaging social aspects within the game.
If we hide hp pools we should probably hide class icons, spell effects, weapon types, gear, etc.
I probably wouldn't mix it, as it might be a topic for a different discussion.[/quo9
It's a joke.
The argument for hiding seems to be either based on a perceived skill in knowing hp values and/or the ability to avoid corruption via using mobs. Hiding gear, spells, etc all achieves the same things things as the arguments for hp, so why not hide all of it!
You say its a joke but you are still going it it even though you know the clear connection people are trying to make keeping people at low hp to escape corruption.
Onto your joke points, yes you shouldn't be able to view some ones gear, skills, build, etc by clicking on them.
Should you even be able to see their gear? How about a clown suit skin shown for every player not in your group?
If someone is keeping you at low hp you can either call a friend to help you kill them or simply move to somewhere else. Frankly it isn't going to be as large of an issue as you are making it out to be. That in addition to the negative effect on group combat make hiding hp values a poor design choice.
You are underestimating pvpers, People make montages of doing this. If it is effective expect people to do this constantly.
Going on the assumption you think people won't remove some piece of gear and keep you low is silly. You drop mats on death, that is easy money.
What percentage of open world kills involves the people making montages? These are cherry picked examples of this and hyperbolic in nature. Again this is easily countered by typing in zone chat, "player x camping me, can I get a bounty hunter."
To design your game around hyperbole is an effort in futility.
You are only confirming you don't understand how pvpers are lol. Videos is the most easy way to show that isn't a niche concept and to show people do it.
You are giving a lot fo feed bac to confirm lack of pvp experience with current games as well. How is a BH going to help when there are no red players for a BH to fight. So you are going to yell in open world and home someone helps you every time they try to feed you to mobs. That is kind of funny.
As i said before ill repeat, feeding people to mobs was common practice, this is not exclusive to making montages it was a meta to reduce karma loss and to make who you were fighting lose money and XP.
This is the thing where people that have not played pvp mmorpgs in like the last 8 years do not understand how players will be and are naïve to the levels that are goings to happen in the game between large guilds and pvp players.
Again I'll ask: what percentage of open world kills use mobs to avoid corruption?
BH act as an imperfect peacekeeping force. Asking them for help whether be in game, through discord, or any other communication means is part of their gameplay loop. Yes people will ask them for help, and yes they will take time to respond. Part of the fun of Ashes is having areas in the game world where lawless actions can take place. Its up to the players to know where such actions can take place and act accordingly.
Will people use mobs to kill players? Absolutely. The question is whether its worth making the combat worse by hiding health bars for something that occurs a small percentage of the time, and leads to other engaging social aspects within the game.
I would need to test it out to give a percent and play the game so its hard to give a value without all the information at hand. As i said it depends on how effective it is and something to be concern about (as i posted videos of people doing it and DEVS having to respond to people doing it and changing elements of their game.)
If it is average difficulty to do it base don't he mobs being strong I'm definitely going to do that generally anytime I see someone. Meaning it be extremely common practice to do it and what most players will do because f getting corrupted.
If its hard it be more of a uncommon thing, like a tool always in your box you can pull from. To do this you are generally much stronger than who you are fighting (though sometimes it can be more even in gear). IF you have nothing to lose it might be worth fighting in more risky mobs packs. Depending how your emotional state you are more likely to do it.
If it is very hard it won't have to be done very often, but I'd have to question what is making it so hard. There would be certain multiple things in place to make it very hard like not seeing their heath bars. It won't be like that on its own. But it be quite rare for people to be doing it depending on what mechanics is making it hard
With the above you can * all those by the rarity of what they are fighting making any scenario more common potentially even more so if they decide if it is worth going corrupted but they will try to feed them to mobs first and corruption will be last resort.
I feel you really aren't getting the BH system in AoC and think it is a police force that is going to protect you. There is no difference between a BH and another player, maybe some of them well be more fanatics and some more focus on pvp. But if you need help there is no difference between that and general players. The point is the player is not corrupted so any special BH stuff does not apply.
If stronger people show up the person will find others to feed to mobs. It is generally a power balance thing. Things change if we are talking about end game content though.
If we hide hp pools we should probably hide class icons, spell effects, weapon types, gear, etc.
I probably wouldn't mix it, as it might be a topic for a different discussion.[/quo9
It's a joke.
The argument for hiding seems to be either based on a perceived skill in knowing hp values and/or the ability to avoid corruption via using mobs. Hiding gear, spells, etc all achieves the same things things as the arguments for hp, so why not hide all of it!
You say its a joke but you are still going it it even though you know the clear connection people are trying to make keeping people at low hp to escape corruption.
Onto your joke points, yes you shouldn't be able to view some ones gear, skills, build, etc by clicking on them.
Should you even be able to see their gear? How about a clown suit skin shown for every player not in your group?
If someone is keeping you at low hp you can either call a friend to help you kill them or simply move to somewhere else. Frankly it isn't going to be as large of an issue as you are making it out to be. That in addition to the negative effect on group combat make hiding hp values a poor design choice.
You are underestimating pvpers, People make montages of doing this. If it is effective expect people to do this constantly.
Going on the assumption you think people won't remove some piece of gear and keep you low is silly. You drop mats on death, that is easy money.
What percentage of open world kills involves the people making montages? These are cherry picked examples of this and hyperbolic in nature. Again this is easily countered by typing in zone chat, "player x camping me, can I get a bounty hunter."
To design your game around hyperbole is an effort in futility.
You are only confirming you don't understand how pvpers are lol. Videos is the most easy way to show that isn't a niche concept and to show people do it.
You are giving a lot fo feed bac to confirm lack of pvp experience with current games as well. How is a BH going to help when there are no red players for a BH to fight. So you are going to yell in open world and home someone helps you every time they try to feed you to mobs. That is kind of funny.
As i said before ill repeat, feeding people to mobs was common practice, this is not exclusive to making montages it was a meta to reduce karma loss and to make who you were fighting lose money and XP.
This is the thing where people that have not played pvp mmorpgs in like the last 8 years do not understand how players will be and are naïve to the levels that are goings to happen in the game between large guilds and pvp players.
Again I'll ask: what percentage of open world kills use mobs to avoid corruption?
BH act as an imperfect peacekeeping force. Asking them for help whether be in game, through discord, or any other communication means is part of their gameplay loop. Yes people will ask them for help, and yes they will take time to respond. Part of the fun of Ashes is having areas in the game world where lawless actions can take place. Its up to the players to know where such actions can take place and act accordingly.
Will people use mobs to kill players? Absolutely. The question is whether its worth making the combat worse by hiding health bars for something that occurs a small percentage of the time, and leads to other engaging social aspects within the game.
I would need to test it out to give a percent and play the game so its hard to give a value without all the information at hand. As i said it depends on how effective it is and something to be concern about (as i posted videos of people doing it and DEVS having to respond to people doing it and changing elements of their game.)
If it is average difficulty to do it base don't he mobs being strong I'm definitely going to do that generally anytime I see someone. Meaning it be extremely common practice to do it and what most players will do because f getting corrupted.
If its hard it be more of a uncommon thing, like a tool always in your box you can pull from. To do this you are generally much stronger than who you are fighting (though sometimes it can be more even in gear). IF you have nothing to lose it might be worth fighting in more risky mobs packs. Depending how your emotional state you are more likely to do it.
If it is very hard it won't have to be done very often, but I'd have to question what is making it so hard. There would be certain multiple things in place to make it very hard like not seeing their heath bars. It won't be like that on its own. But it be quite rare for people to be doing it depending on what mechanics is making it hard
With the above you can * all those by the rarity of what they are fighting making any scenario more common potentially even more so if they decide if it is worth going corrupted but they will try to feed them to mobs first and corruption will be last resort.
I feel you really aren't getting the BH system in AoC and think it is a police force that is going to protect you. There is no difference between a BH and another player, maybe some of them well be more fanatics and some more focus on pvp. But if you need help there is no difference between that and general players. The point is the player is not corrupted so any special BH stuff does not apply.
If stronger people show up the person will find others to feed to mobs. It is generally a power balance thing. Things change if we are talking about end game content though.
I'm not talking about how often it will occur in Ashes. You mentioned multiple times in games you played it was meta. How often did it occur in those games? Was there a difference in kill amounts based on zone, guild affiliation, level bracket, farm spot, guildwars? Obviously you don't have the exact numbers, but based on your previous comments it sounds like easily north of 90% and occurred anywhere and everywhere. I'd be willing to bet this was not the case, so please educate me on the specifics.
The point of asking this is to illustrate how behavior like this will occur more often in places where high level players are going. If you are going to those places to farm, you are consenting to the potential of being murdered. There needs to be places where players have the ability to be safe; games like EVE accomplish this concept with the different tiers of security. Ashes intends to solve this with the bounty system and nodes.
It seems like you think players will engage with the bounty hunting system specifically to progress that skill tree. I'd argue it'll see more engagement from people who enjoy protecting the "innocent". Players who engage in this type of gameplay will be known on their servers, and the subsequent social interaction garnered from it will motivate that type of gameplay. I've seen it in Darkfall, Mortal and most recently, Helldivers. Players love to roleplay, and systems that encourage this type of behavior should be prioritized.
To bring it full circle: the ability to kill other players by seeing their healthbar is important. It makes combat better, and makes social interaction (both negative and positive) stronger.
@KingDDD this is the issue if you don't play modern mmorpgs involving pvp. This is why I continue to tell people they are naïve with their takes. You are trying to bet it wasn't common involving pvp when the DEVELOEPRS OF THE GAME literally addressed it because of how much it was being done.
You do not understand the mind set of a pvper no one is going to protect you, stop thinking that is how the BH system is going to work. We are not talking about corrupted players we are talking about people avoiding corruption and getting you killed to mobs. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a BH and any other player in this case. Stop using that as an example you will not be safe anywhere involving mobs.
You are "bringing it back around" because your point is weak. You an fantasizing rp with BH in a way that doesn't even make sense with what is being talked about and than just randomly saying seeing hp makes it better without really backing it up.
Not seeing hp means you need to look at things and think about a situation rather than having your hand held. You have to trust in yourself, your knowledge you have gained, and the people you work with. It adds more complexity to the gameplay on top of placing another nail in the coffin for hp griefing.
@KingDDD this is the issue if you don't play modern mmorpgs involving pvp. This is why I continue to tell people they are naïve with their takes. You are trying to bet it wasn't common involving pvp when the DEVELOEPRS OF THE GAME literally addressed it because of how much it was being done.
You do not understand the mind set of a pvper no one is going to protect you, stop thinking that is how the BH system is going to work. We are not talking about corrupted players we are talking about people avoiding corruption and getting you killed to mobs. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a BH and any other player in this case. Stop using that as an example you will not be safe anywhere involving mobs.
You are "bringing it back around" because your point is weak. You an fantasizing rp with BH in a way that doesn't even make sense with what is being talked about and than just randomly saying seeing hp makes it better without really backing it up.
Not seeing hp means you need to look at things and think about a situation rather than having your hand held. You have to trust in yourself, your knowledge you have gained, and the people you work with. It adds more complexity to the gameplay on top of placing another nail in the coffin for hp griefing.
So again where did it happen, and why did it happen? Was it being done in high level zones with valuable resources or was it being done in the starting area? It matters where as you are CONSENTING to potentially being messed with by other players in one of those areas.
There very much is a difference between someone who wants to roleplay as a bounty hunter and someone who does not. You could argue that's not a large subsect of the potential community, but if the popularity of roleplaying cops in games like GTA online, Rust, Mortal, Darkfall, etc shows anything its that this playstyle is both popular and engaging. No one is guaranteed to help you, but there are plenty of people who want to engage in that behavior.
I'd disagree that it showing healthbars makes you have to "look at things" in the game world and further complicates the combat system. Dota shows healthbars (and all stats) to all players, and its wildly more complicated than any MMO.
I'm bringing it back around as that is the topic of this post. You tend to get lost in the weeds and attempting to keep the dialogue about the specific topic is important. Do tell me more about what I've played, while being unable to engage in a dialogue, I do appreciate the gaslighting throughout your post.
@KingDDD this is the issue if you don't play modern mmorpgs involving pvp. This is why I continue to tell people they are naïve with their takes. You are trying to bet it wasn't common involving pvp when the DEVELOEPRS OF THE GAME literally addressed it because of how much it was being done.
You do not understand the mind set of a pvper no one is going to protect you, stop thinking that is how the BH system is going to work. We are not talking about corrupted players we are talking about people avoiding corruption and getting you killed to mobs. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a BH and any other player in this case. Stop using that as an example you will not be safe anywhere involving mobs.
You are "bringing it back around" because your point is weak. You an fantasizing rp with BH in a way that doesn't even make sense with what is being talked about and than just randomly saying seeing hp makes it better without really backing it up.
Not seeing hp means you need to look at things and think about a situation rather than having your hand held. You have to trust in yourself, your knowledge you have gained, and the people you work with. It adds more complexity to the gameplay on top of placing another nail in the coffin for hp griefing.
So again where did it happen, and why did it happen? Was it being done in high level zones with valuable resources or was it being done in the starting area? It matters where as you are CONSENTING to potentially being messed with by other players in one of those areas.
There very much is a difference between someone who wants to roleplay as a bounty hunter and someone who does not. You could argue that's not a large subsect of the potential community, but if the popularity of roleplaying cops in games like GTA online, Rust, Mortal, Darkfall, etc shows anything its that this playstyle is both popular and engaging. No one is guaranteed to help you, but there are plenty of people who want to engage in that behavior.
I'd disagree that it showing healthbars makes you have to "look at things" in the game world and further complicates the combat system. Dota shows healthbars (and all stats) to all players, and its wildly more complicated than any MMO.
I'm bringing it back around as that is the topic of this post. You tend to get lost in the weeds and attempting to keep the dialogue about the specific topic is important. Do tell me more about what I've played, while being unable to engage in a dialogue, I do appreciate the gaslighting throughout your post.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
I keep trying to paint this clearly but you just are not getting it Feeding to people was a tool you use that was part of your kit in how people would view it. It is no different than attacking someone lol...But satisfying when you saw them die. Its like you asking where did you attack someone its not really relevant.
if the combat system is more complicated that means its a higher skill level you need and you need to pay even more attention to details to get information. That is literarily the default baseline.
Personally i don't kind dota complicated maybe cause I've played it too much even more so if you are trying to compare it to a mmorpg where you have like 30 skills instead of 4 (generally). With dota its more the variety and not knowing what to expect and per character really being that complex. Some character are literally right click bots some are a bit more complex but not really compared to a mmorpg if we are talking about team fighting situations.
Though you can make the argument the skill level is higher because of the elements of action combat compared to older tab target mmorpgs.
@KingDDD this is the issue if you don't play modern mmorpgs involving pvp. This is why I continue to tell people they are naïve with their takes. You are trying to bet it wasn't common involving pvp when the DEVELOEPRS OF THE GAME literally addressed it because of how much it was being done.
You do not understand the mind set of a pvper no one is going to protect you, stop thinking that is how the BH system is going to work. We are not talking about corrupted players we are talking about people avoiding corruption and getting you killed to mobs. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a BH and any other player in this case. Stop using that as an example you will not be safe anywhere involving mobs.
You are "bringing it back around" because your point is weak. You an fantasizing rp with BH in a way that doesn't even make sense with what is being talked about and than just randomly saying seeing hp makes it better without really backing it up.
Not seeing hp means you need to look at things and think about a situation rather than having your hand held. You have to trust in yourself, your knowledge you have gained, and the people you work with. It adds more complexity to the gameplay on top of placing another nail in the coffin for hp griefing.
So again where did it happen, and why did it happen? Was it being done in high level zones with valuable resources or was it being done in the starting area? It matters where as you are CONSENTING to potentially being messed with by other players in one of those areas.
There very much is a difference between someone who wants to roleplay as a bounty hunter and someone who does not. You could argue that's not a large subsect of the potential community, but if the popularity of roleplaying cops in games like GTA online, Rust, Mortal, Darkfall, etc shows anything its that this playstyle is both popular and engaging. No one is guaranteed to help you, but there are plenty of people who want to engage in that behavior.
I'd disagree that it showing healthbars makes you have to "look at things" in the game world and further complicates the combat system. Dota shows healthbars (and all stats) to all players, and its wildly more complicated than any MMO.
I'm bringing it back around as that is the topic of this post. You tend to get lost in the weeds and attempting to keep the dialogue about the specific topic is important. Do tell me more about what I've played, while being unable to engage in a dialogue, I do appreciate the gaslighting throughout your post.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
I keep trying to paint this clearly but you just are not getting it Feeding to people was a tool you use that was part of your kit in how people would view it. It is no different than attacking someone lol...But satisfying when you saw them die. Its like you asking where did you attack someone its not really relevant.
if the combat system is more complicated that means its a higher skill level you need and you need to pay even more attention to details to get information. That is literarily the default baseline.
Personally i don't kind dota complicated maybe cause I've played it too much even more so if you are trying to compare it to a mmorpg where you have like 30 skills instead of 4 (generally). With dota its more the variety and not knowing what to expect and per character really being that complex. Some character are literally right click bots some are a bit more complex but not really compared to a mmorpg if we are talking about team fighting situations.
Though you can make the argument the skill level is higher because of the elements of action combat compared to older tab target mmorpgs.
Location matters as the corruption system is in the game to add consequences to players who murder, but not all locations are equal. If you are going to a lawless zone you are consenting to the possibility of being murdered by other players. Having the ability to potentially dodge corruption in these areas is important as it allows players to be the villain with social consequences but without ingame consequences. This makes the world matter by giving the small-ball pk and antipk (or bounty hunter) guilds areas to operate and affect the map. If I'm choosing to farm in a certain area that takes 2-3 hours real time to get too, I'm going to want to see what guilds are in the area. What guild tags am I looking to be wary of? Who are their scouts? If I need help, who can help me?
I'm asking you the percentages of kills that happen by mobs because if its too high its a problem for the general population. Random Bob in a starter area shouldnt be worried about being murdered. If its happening in the starting zone that's a design problem and corruption should be tweaked specifically in those areas.
Current Dota has 12+ keybinds per character, gone are the days of one-handed skeleton king.
Does hiding information really make it more complicated? If yes, why not hide gear, class, level, guild tag, name, etc. I'd say you can have more intricate class design by showing HP pools. Let rogues take a perk that lets them deal more damage from behind if the target is above a certain percentage of health. Let bards give a better buff if the target their attacking is below a certain threshold. But all that stuff is a matter of opinion.
Just pitting in my two cents. No ty. Also Im already not a fan of know seeing more information on a players HP. Another step in that direction, pls no.
@KingDDD this is the issue if you don't play modern mmorpgs involving pvp. This is why I continue to tell people they are naïve with their takes. You are trying to bet it wasn't common involving pvp when the DEVELOEPRS OF THE GAME literally addressed it because of how much it was being done.
You do not understand the mind set of a pvper no one is going to protect you, stop thinking that is how the BH system is going to work. We are not talking about corrupted players we are talking about people avoiding corruption and getting you killed to mobs. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a BH and any other player in this case. Stop using that as an example you will not be safe anywhere involving mobs.
You are "bringing it back around" because your point is weak. You an fantasizing rp with BH in a way that doesn't even make sense with what is being talked about and than just randomly saying seeing hp makes it better without really backing it up.
Not seeing hp means you need to look at things and think about a situation rather than having your hand held. You have to trust in yourself, your knowledge you have gained, and the people you work with. It adds more complexity to the gameplay on top of placing another nail in the coffin for hp griefing.
So again where did it happen, and why did it happen? Was it being done in high level zones with valuable resources or was it being done in the starting area? It matters where as you are CONSENTING to potentially being messed with by other players in one of those areas.
There very much is a difference between someone who wants to roleplay as a bounty hunter and someone who does not. You could argue that's not a large subsect of the potential community, but if the popularity of roleplaying cops in games like GTA online, Rust, Mortal, Darkfall, etc shows anything its that this playstyle is both popular and engaging. No one is guaranteed to help you, but there are plenty of people who want to engage in that behavior.
I'd disagree that it showing healthbars makes you have to "look at things" in the game world and further complicates the combat system. Dota shows healthbars (and all stats) to all players, and its wildly more complicated than any MMO.
I'm bringing it back around as that is the topic of this post. You tend to get lost in the weeds and attempting to keep the dialogue about the specific topic is important. Do tell me more about what I've played, while being unable to engage in a dialogue, I do appreciate the gaslighting throughout your post.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
I keep trying to paint this clearly but you just are not getting it Feeding to people was a tool you use that was part of your kit in how people would view it. It is no different than attacking someone lol...But satisfying when you saw them die. Its like you asking where did you attack someone its not really relevant.
if the combat system is more complicated that means its a higher skill level you need and you need to pay even more attention to details to get information. That is literarily the default baseline.
Personally i don't kind dota complicated maybe cause I've played it too much even more so if you are trying to compare it to a mmorpg where you have like 30 skills instead of 4 (generally). With dota its more the variety and not knowing what to expect and per character really being that complex. Some character are literally right click bots some are a bit more complex but not really compared to a mmorpg if we are talking about team fighting situations.
Though you can make the argument the skill level is higher because of the elements of action combat compared to older tab target mmorpgs.
Location matters as the corruption system is in the game to add consequences to players who murder, but not all locations are equal. If you are going to a lawless zone you are consenting to the possibility of being murdered by other players. Having the ability to potentially dodge corruption in these areas is important as it allows players to be the villain with social consequences but without ingame consequences. This makes the world matter by giving the small-ball pk and antipk (or bounty hunter) guilds areas to operate and affect the map. If I'm choosing to farm in a certain area that takes 2-3 hours real time to get too, I'm going to want to see what guilds are in the area. What guild tags am I looking to be wary of? Who are their scouts? If I need help, who can help me?
I'm asking you the percentages of kills that happen by mobs because if its too high its a problem for the general population. Random Bob in a starter area shouldnt be worried about being murdered. If its happening in the starting zone that's a design problem and corruption should be tweaked specifically in those areas.
Current Dota has 12+ keybinds per character, gone are the days of one-handed skeleton king.
Does hiding information really make it more complicated? If yes, why not hide gear, class, level, guild tag, name, etc. I'd say you can have more intricate class design by showing HP pools. Let rogues take a perk that lets them deal more damage from behind if the target is above a certain percentage of health. Let bards give a better buff if the target their attacking is below a certain threshold. But all that stuff is a matter of opinion.
I dont know what you are talking about with different areas of corruption....all corruption works the same. Can we keep things in line with the clear aspects they have talked about it please. This is just kind of fantasy....corruption works the same minus the ocean where there is no corruption gain.
You are asking for information that is not relevant for a percent that is not going to be available and makes no sense to ask. You have a person that played the games for years telling you how it was, you have proof of devs commenting on it. If you want to keep being blind to facts so be it lol.
That isnt true you aren't using 12 abilities on Sk now are you using items that all have skills on it unless you are doing a certain type of build. Nor are you doing everything at once do to long cds. Dota is not that complex in terms of ability use...
Yes you shouldn't see some ones gear..... Level is fine so you can gauge a potential danger that can be your source of information on a potential threat. And of course letting players be mindful of a lower level that can give a lot of corruption. So it is in more benefit to those wanting to pvp tbh.
You are missing the point about showing hp and avoiding the corruption system. As you talk about a lot of things that are not really relevant to the disccusion like bh, etc. Either way if its viable people on the forum will realize in alpha 2 when they are playing.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
If it is the fact that players can sometimes avoid corruption by reducing a player to low HP and letting a mob finish them off, then address that specific directly.
A game where you cant see opponent HP doesnt prevent that issue sometimes happening - it still happened in L2.
Sometimes people are able to do it on purpose,sometimes it happens on accident.
The point is, if your issue is that people can sometimes avoid corruption if a mob kills a player, then that is what you should be arguing to close. Being able to see HP of an enemy is such a minor, insignificant aspect of that as to make it not even worth consideration as a fix.
If you really - and I mean *really* - want that situation fixed, you ask for all players that attacked another player within a number of seconds of them dying to all share in the corruption, as this closes literally all loop holes where players could avoid corruption.
The fact that you are arguing for no visible HP bar and not the above tells us all that you actually dont care about people being able to sometimes avoid corruption.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
If it is the fact that players can sometimes avoid corruption by reducing a player to low HP and letting a mob finish them off, then address that specific directly.
A game where you cant see opponent HP doesnt prevent that issue sometimes happening - it still happened in L2.
Sometimes people are able to do it on purpose,sometimes it happens on accident.
The point is, if your issue is that people can sometimes avoid corruption if a mob kills a player, then that is what you should be arguing to close. Being able to see HP of an enemy is such a minor, insignificant aspect of that as to make it not even worth consideration as a fix.
If you really - and I mean *really* - want that situation fixed, you ask for all players that attacked another player within a number of seconds of them dying to all share in the corruption, as this closes literally all loop holes where players could avoid corruption.
The fact that you are arguing for no visible HP bar and not the above tells us all that you actually dont care about people being able to sometimes avoid corruption.
Like, we can all see it plain as day.
I've already made the point about before with corruption though people don't' agree on that exactly, BDO did a similar change by making it so you don't lose anything.
So corrupting a player and accepting your death is something that could work. Though you can still easily harass seeing their hp bar to keep them low out of combat and as they are fighting mobs be more careful on the amount of damage you do. Like keeping them at 30%-40% so the corruption timer will be long enough you don't get corrupted.
And yes there can be more than one reason, making things more competitive. Seeing a group fighting and not knowing their hp can be an advantage. As if they were all almost dead you you aren't going to know that so the first instinct might make you hesitate or not hold back. Increasing the general element of danger.
And yes there can be more than one reason, making things more competitive. Seeing a group fighting and not knowing their hp can be an advantage. As if they were all almost dead you you aren't going to know that so the first instinct might make you hesitate or not hold back. Increasing the general element of danger.
Since this works both ways, it is not a valid argument.
An increase in danger to you is a decrease to them. They may be almost dead, and if you could see their HP they would be in real danger. However, if you cant see their HP, that is making you less likely to attack, this removing some of that risk for them.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
If it is the fact that players can sometimes avoid corruption by reducing a player to low HP and letting a mob finish them off, then address that specific directly.
A game where you cant see opponent HP doesnt prevent that issue sometimes happening - it still happened in L2.
Sometimes people are able to do it on purpose,sometimes it happens on accident.
The point is, if your issue is that people can sometimes avoid corruption if a mob kills a player, then that is what you should be arguing to close. Being able to see HP of an enemy is such a minor, insignificant aspect of that as to make it not even worth consideration as a fix.
If you really - and I mean *really* - want that situation fixed, you ask for all players that attacked another player within a number of seconds of them dying to all share in the corruption, as this closes literally all loop holes where players could avoid corruption.
The fact that you are arguing for no visible HP bar and not the above tells us all that you actually dont care about people being able to sometimes avoid corruption.
Like, we can all see it plain as day.
In L2, the corruption system swung both ways.
There were occasions when we got intel from someone a certain player or group of players were closing in and likely to target our guild, so we deliberately prepared. When they arrived, someone in our group (or all) provoked/taunted them to initiate PvP.
However, by being prepared, our hit points were already reduced beforehand. Either did from mobs or by flagging on each other.
Then, we allowed them to inadvertently one or two tap kill one of our group members (someone sacrificed themselves for the team), causing them to turn red.
Consequently, we would retaliate en-force and reap the rewards of their dropped gear!
With no health bar and they had no idea; so they provoke pvp in the normal manner by just hitting a few times within the known number of likely shots short of a kill (+/- a crit) unintentionally kill, go red and end up being played themselves..
We did this on farmers a lot and selected enemy players. The farming team "enforcers" did not like going red but did try to clear areas to allow their own team to stay and remove unwanted pve`ers.
But should a friendly guild in fair play pk lose their gear, we usually gave back.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
If it is the fact that players can sometimes avoid corruption by reducing a player to low HP and letting a mob finish them off, then address that specific directly.
A game where you cant see opponent HP doesnt prevent that issue sometimes happening - it still happened in L2.
Sometimes people are able to do it on purpose,sometimes it happens on accident.
The point is, if your issue is that people can sometimes avoid corruption if a mob kills a player, then that is what you should be arguing to close. Being able to see HP of an enemy is such a minor, insignificant aspect of that as to make it not even worth consideration as a fix.
If you really - and I mean *really* - want that situation fixed, you ask for all players that attacked another player within a number of seconds of them dying to all share in the corruption, as this closes literally all loop holes where players could avoid corruption.
The fact that you are arguing for no visible HP bar and not the above tells us all that you actually dont care about people being able to sometimes avoid corruption.
Like, we can all see it plain as day.
In L2, the corruption system swung both ways.
There were occasions when we got intel from someone a certain player or group of players were closing in and likely to target our guild, so we deliberately prepared. When they arrived, someone in our group (or all) provoked/taunted them to initiate PvP.
However, by being prepared, our hit points were already reduced beforehand. Either did from mobs or by flagging on each other.
Then, we allowed them to inadvertently one or two tap kill one of our group members (someone sacrificed themselves for the team), causing them to turn red.
Consequently, we would retaliate en-force and reap the rewards of their dropped gear!
With no health bar and they had no idea; so they provoke pvp in the normal manner by just hitting a few times within the known number of likely shots short of a kill (+/- a crit) unintentionally kill, go red and end up being played themselves..
We did this on farmers a lot and selected enemy players. The farming team "enforcers" did not like going red but did try to clear areas to allow their own team to stay and remove unwanted pve`ers.
But should a friendly guild in fair play pk lose their gear, we usually gave back.
Right, and so my first thought with this is "why try to replicate that"?
Sure, people did this at times in L2, and it was probably somewhat unexpected by most that had this done to them.
However, why should that mean that this same thing needs to be done in Ashes? Rather than building the game to give us interesting ways to use the mechanics that were done in other games, give us new mechanics that require us to come up with new ways to do this.
I have absolutely no doubt people will attempt to do that same thing in Ashes - even with HP indicators. However, they will have to be cleaver and come up with a new way of doing it rather than regurgitating something that was done 20 years ago.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
If it is the fact that players can sometimes avoid corruption by reducing a player to low HP and letting a mob finish them off, then address that specific directly.
A game where you cant see opponent HP doesnt prevent that issue sometimes happening - it still happened in L2.
Sometimes people are able to do it on purpose,sometimes it happens on accident.
The point is, if your issue is that people can sometimes avoid corruption if a mob kills a player, then that is what you should be arguing to close. Being able to see HP of an enemy is such a minor, insignificant aspect of that as to make it not even worth consideration as a fix.
If you really - and I mean *really* - want that situation fixed, you ask for all players that attacked another player within a number of seconds of them dying to all share in the corruption, as this closes literally all loop holes where players could avoid corruption.
The fact that you are arguing for no visible HP bar and not the above tells us all that you actually dont care about people being able to sometimes avoid corruption.
Like, we can all see it plain as day.
In L2, the corruption system swung both ways.
There were occasions when we got intel from someone a certain player or group of players were closing in and likely to target our guild, so we deliberately prepared. When they arrived, someone in our group (or all) provoked/taunted them to initiate PvP.
However, by being prepared, our hit points were already reduced beforehand. Either did from mobs or by flagging on each other.
Then, we allowed them to inadvertently one or two tap kill one of our group members (someone sacrificed themselves for the team), causing them to turn red.
Consequently, we would retaliate en-force and reap the rewards of their dropped gear!
With no health bar and they had no idea; so they provoke pvp in the normal manner by just hitting a few times within the known number of likely shots short of a kill (+/- a crit) unintentionally kill, go red and end up being played themselves..
We did this on farmers a lot and selected enemy players. The farming team "enforcers" did not like going red but did try to clear areas to allow their own team to stay and remove unwanted pve`ers.
But should a friendly guild in fair play pk lose their gear, we usually gave back.
Right, and so my first thought with this is "why try to replicate that"?
Sure, people did this at times in L2, and it was probably somewhat unexpected by most that had this done to them.
However, why should that mean that this same thing needs to be done in Ashes? Rather than building the game to give us interesting ways to use the mechanics that were done in other games, give us new mechanics that require us to come up with new ways to do this.
I have absolutely no doubt people will attempt to do that same thing in Ashes - even with HP indicators. However, they will have to be cleaver and come up with a new way of doing it rather than regurgitating rsomething that was done 20 years ago.
This
And by denying information you prevent the community from even attempting to create new solutions to the issue. The corruption changes, over and above what L2 had, create new angles.
Let the players explore the system and try to deal with it, don't do it for us.
The L2 devs didn't necessarily foresee all the ways people would use and abuse the systems. And that applies to both sides, the attacker AND the defender. The Ashes devs won't foresee everything either. Enable the players and and see what develops.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
L2 was heavily political, strategic and all about relationships, friend and foes.
It revolved around desire for levels, territory, gear, and wealth.
The main tools for those who wanted progression were diplomacy or war.
If bosses, territories, castles, nodes or even xp areas provide value in Ashes, then can very much see similar again.
Comments
If they are flagged or participate in opt-in PvP event, you'll see it anyway
P.S. Read the update in the first post
Much prefer people learn the game and become successful by developing a sense for their own character`s ability and its impact on others than just reading a bar.
Please remind me what version it was when L2 stopped dropping meaningful amounts of resources and things like that, on player death.
The internet at large tends to be unreliable about data for older MMOs, so I prefer to rely on experienced players.
You can't cc greens so that is one of the good things they decided on.
How can you make informed decisions on how to fight if you have zero idea on how much hit points someone has?
the statement I read "you should know what your abilities do" or "you should know how much health a player has" is telling of a complete lack of PVP experience .
how would one know if the target is being healed, attacked by other players, or used a health pot? let alone using any defensive cool downs or buffs?
Also what if I see a player in the world who actually needs help? I have no idea because I cant see their hit points to know if they need a heal.
What if I am fighting two people and I need to know who is getting lower faster so I can make a swap to kill someone?
If I am unable to see my target's hit points how am I to make a decision on when to crowd control their healer to secure a kill?
None of these points I have seen brought up.
In 2004, during the open beta phase of the game, I experienced frequent losses of key gear due to being player-killed (pk'd) and deaths to mobs.
Looking back at screenshots, it was probably around 2005-2006, approximately a year to two after the game officially launched, that was the last time I remember losing gear in player versus environment (pve) situations. Specifically, in Cruma Tower, I lost my gear due to accidental mob deaths. And memorable as it was key gear lost to a farmer.
Regarding player versus player (pvp) encounters, if flagged as a red player, I continued to lose most of my gear upon death, especially up until around 2010. There after only logged on a couple of times to say hi.
Agree. I'd like also hidden level for none members of your group. The skins/gear should give enough information about the power of a player. That's also why I don't like anarchic cosmetics that give the appearance of a donkey to a crocodile.
You do not understand the mind set of a pvper no one is going to protect you, stop thinking that is how the BH system is going to work. We are not talking about corrupted players we are talking about people avoiding corruption and getting you killed to mobs. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a BH and any other player in this case. Stop using that as an example you will not be safe anywhere involving mobs.
You are "bringing it back around" because your point is weak. You an fantasizing rp with BH in a way that doesn't even make sense with what is being talked about and than just randomly saying seeing hp makes it better without really backing it up.
Not seeing hp means you need to look at things and think about a situation rather than having your hand held. You have to trust in yourself, your knowledge you have gained, and the people you work with. It adds more complexity to the gameplay on top of placing another nail in the coffin for hp griefing.
So again where did it happen, and why did it happen? Was it being done in high level zones with valuable resources or was it being done in the starting area? It matters where as you are CONSENTING to potentially being messed with by other players in one of those areas.
There very much is a difference between someone who wants to roleplay as a bounty hunter and someone who does not. You could argue that's not a large subsect of the potential community, but if the popularity of roleplaying cops in games like GTA online, Rust, Mortal, Darkfall, etc shows anything its that this playstyle is both popular and engaging. No one is guaranteed to help you, but there are plenty of people who want to engage in that behavior.
I'd disagree that it showing healthbars makes you have to "look at things" in the game world and further complicates the combat system. Dota shows healthbars (and all stats) to all players, and its wildly more complicated than any MMO.
I'm bringing it back around as that is the topic of this post. You tend to get lost in the weeds and attempting to keep the dialogue about the specific topic is important. Do tell me more about what I've played, while being unable to engage in a dialogue, I do appreciate the gaslighting throughout your post.
Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.
I keep trying to paint this clearly but you just are not getting it Feeding to people was a tool you use that was part of your kit in how people would view it. It is no different than attacking someone lol...But satisfying when you saw them die. Its like you asking where did you attack someone its not really relevant.
if the combat system is more complicated that means its a higher skill level you need and you need to pay even more attention to details to get information. That is literarily the default baseline.
Personally i don't kind dota complicated maybe cause I've played it too much even more so if you are trying to compare it to a mmorpg where you have like 30 skills instead of 4 (generally). With dota its more the variety and not knowing what to expect and per character really being that complex. Some character are literally right click bots some are a bit more complex but not really compared to a mmorpg if we are talking about team fighting situations.
Though you can make the argument the skill level is higher because of the elements of action combat compared to older tab target mmorpgs.
Location matters as the corruption system is in the game to add consequences to players who murder, but not all locations are equal. If you are going to a lawless zone you are consenting to the possibility of being murdered by other players. Having the ability to potentially dodge corruption in these areas is important as it allows players to be the villain with social consequences but without ingame consequences. This makes the world matter by giving the small-ball pk and antipk (or bounty hunter) guilds areas to operate and affect the map. If I'm choosing to farm in a certain area that takes 2-3 hours real time to get too, I'm going to want to see what guilds are in the area. What guild tags am I looking to be wary of? Who are their scouts? If I need help, who can help me?
I'm asking you the percentages of kills that happen by mobs because if its too high its a problem for the general population. Random Bob in a starter area shouldnt be worried about being murdered. If its happening in the starting zone that's a design problem and corruption should be tweaked specifically in those areas.
Current Dota has 12+ keybinds per character, gone are the days of one-handed skeleton king.
Does hiding information really make it more complicated? If yes, why not hide gear, class, level, guild tag, name, etc. I'd say you can have more intricate class design by showing HP pools. Let rogues take a perk that lets them deal more damage from behind if the target is above a certain percentage of health. Let bards give a better buff if the target their attacking is below a certain threshold. But all that stuff is a matter of opinion.
I dont know what you are talking about with different areas of corruption....all corruption works the same. Can we keep things in line with the clear aspects they have talked about it please. This is just kind of fantasy....corruption works the same minus the ocean where there is no corruption gain.
You are asking for information that is not relevant for a percent that is not going to be available and makes no sense to ask. You have a person that played the games for years telling you how it was, you have proof of devs commenting on it. If you want to keep being blind to facts so be it lol.
That isnt true you aren't using 12 abilities on Sk now are you using items that all have skills on it unless you are doing a certain type of build. Nor are you doing everything at once do to long cds. Dota is not that complex in terms of ability use...
Yes you shouldn't see some ones gear..... Level is fine so you can gauge a potential danger that can be your source of information on a potential threat. And of course letting players be mindful of a lower level that can give a lot of corruption. So it is in more benefit to those wanting to pvp tbh.
You are missing the point about showing hp and avoiding the corruption system. As you talk about a lot of things that are not really relevant to the disccusion like bh, etc. Either way if its viable people on the forum will realize in alpha 2 when they are playing.
A game where you cant see opponent HP doesnt prevent that issue sometimes happening - it still happened in L2.
Sometimes people are able to do it on purpose,sometimes it happens on accident.
The point is, if your issue is that people can sometimes avoid corruption if a mob kills a player, then that is what you should be arguing to close. Being able to see HP of an enemy is such a minor, insignificant aspect of that as to make it not even worth consideration as a fix.
If you really - and I mean *really* - want that situation fixed, you ask for all players that attacked another player within a number of seconds of them dying to all share in the corruption, as this closes literally all loop holes where players could avoid corruption.
The fact that you are arguing for no visible HP bar and not the above tells us all that you actually dont care about people being able to sometimes avoid corruption.
Like, we can all see it plain as day.
I've already made the point about before with corruption though people don't' agree on that exactly, BDO did a similar change by making it so you don't lose anything.
So corrupting a player and accepting your death is something that could work. Though you can still easily harass seeing their hp bar to keep them low out of combat and as they are fighting mobs be more careful on the amount of damage you do. Like keeping them at 30%-40% so the corruption timer will be long enough you don't get corrupted.
And yes there can be more than one reason, making things more competitive. Seeing a group fighting and not knowing their hp can be an advantage. As if they were all almost dead you you aren't going to know that so the first instinct might make you hesitate or not hold back. Increasing the general element of danger.
An increase in danger to you is a decrease to them. They may be almost dead, and if you could see their HP they would be in real danger. However, if you cant see their HP, that is making you less likely to attack, this removing some of that risk for them.
Thanks for the Information.
I wonder if this will anger the People who would love to have the HP invisible.
In L2, the corruption system swung both ways.
There were occasions when we got intel from someone a certain player or group of players were closing in and likely to target our guild, so we deliberately prepared. When they arrived, someone in our group (or all) provoked/taunted them to initiate PvP.
However, by being prepared, our hit points were already reduced beforehand. Either did from mobs or by flagging on each other.
Then, we allowed them to inadvertently one or two tap kill one of our group members (someone sacrificed themselves for the team), causing them to turn red.
Consequently, we would retaliate en-force and reap the rewards of their dropped gear!
With no health bar and they had no idea; so they provoke pvp in the normal manner by just hitting a few times within the known number of likely shots short of a kill (+/- a crit) unintentionally kill, go red and end up being played themselves..
We did this on farmers a lot and selected enemy players. The farming team "enforcers" did not like going red but did try to clear areas to allow their own team to stay and remove unwanted pve`ers.
But should a friendly guild in fair play pk lose their gear, we usually gave back.
Right, and so my first thought with this is "why try to replicate that"?
Sure, people did this at times in L2, and it was probably somewhat unexpected by most that had this done to them.
However, why should that mean that this same thing needs to be done in Ashes? Rather than building the game to give us interesting ways to use the mechanics that were done in other games, give us new mechanics that require us to come up with new ways to do this.
I have absolutely no doubt people will attempt to do that same thing in Ashes - even with HP indicators. However, they will have to be cleaver and come up with a new way of doing it rather than regurgitating something that was done 20 years ago.
This
And by denying information you prevent the community from even attempting to create new solutions to the issue. The corruption changes, over and above what L2 had, create new angles.
Let the players explore the system and try to deal with it, don't do it for us.
The L2 devs didn't necessarily foresee all the ways people would use and abuse the systems. And that applies to both sides, the attacker AND the defender. The Ashes devs won't foresee everything either. Enable the players and and see what develops.
It revolved around desire for levels, territory, gear, and wealth.
The main tools for those who wanted progression were diplomacy or war.
If bosses, territories, castles, nodes or even xp areas provide value in Ashes, then can very much see similar again.