Also, you do need to be stronger than that player - significantly so. You need to sacrifice some of your strength in order to have a sub-optimal build with abilities that do less damage, and also to get the 1/6 or 1/8 health bubbles. That won't happen without some sacrifice somewhere else. In order to pull this off, you need to take that hit to your strength, yet still appear so much stronger to your "victim" that they don't consider attacking you even though you are a combatant and so they won't gain corruption for doing so.
Again, you simply don't understand the griefer's logic here. Or maybe I'm reading your comments wrong.
The griefer doesn't care about people who fight back. He'll simply die to them and not touch them again. He's looking for prey that won't fight back. And he'll spend as much of his time as possible harassing such prey. That's his goal.
Azherae's solution is the slightest change toward this and will actually not prevent them being attacked. PvE players will still have to get out of fight and move somewhere else. Which eventually make them choose to play other mmos better suited for them.
And as I said already, I know that this solution won't remove the abuse itself, it simply removes the ease of it.
I keep telling yall, but you keep bunching me up with other arguments. My only base argument has been "visible hp makes it easier to do this abuse". Azherae's change removes that ease. That's it. That's what I wanted
If we hide hp pools we should probably hide class icons, spell effects, weapon types, gear, etc.
I probably wouldn't mix it, as it might be a topic for a different discussion.[/quo9
It's a joke.
The argument for hiding seems to be either based on a perceived skill in knowing hp values and/or the ability to avoid corruption via using mobs. Hiding gear, spells, etc all achieves the same things things as the arguments for hp, so why not hide all of it!
You say its a joke but you are still going it it even though you know the clear connection people are trying to make keeping people at low hp to escape corruption.
Onto your joke points, yes you shouldn't be able to view some ones gear, skills, build, etc by clicking on them.
Should you even be able to see their gear? How about a clown suit skin shown for every player not in your group?
If someone is keeping you at low hp you can either call a friend to help you kill them or simply move to somewhere else. Frankly it isn't going to be as large of an issue as you are making it out to be. That in addition to the negative effect on group combat make hiding hp values a poor design choice.
You are underestimating pvpers, People make montages of doing this. If it is effective expect people to do this constantly.
Going on the assumption you think people won't remove some piece of gear and keep you low is silly. You drop mats on death, that is easy money.
In a broader context, the precident this sets genuinely boths me.
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
In a broader context, the precident this sets genuinely boths me.
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
Yes. Like, that's how Intrepid develops things in general. It's been that way, from the start, and I don't say this as a bad thing or a thing they should be 'ashamed of'.
From the beginning they've had a somewhat 'let's try stuff and see what sticks, based on what I like and think can be made to work - Steven Paraphrased Sharif' approach.
You can't really argue with the initial results either, can you? Ashes of Creation has far more support and hype than it has direct criticism based on this approach (or used to, it's hard to tell if it changed and I'm biased now).
The only thing we can probably look to as a potential downside of this would be that Alpha-2 might be kinda long.
The only thing we can probably look to as a potential downside of this would be that Alpha-2 might be kinda long.
My current bet is ~3 years. And day in day out countless repetitive forum/reddit threads of "this is wrong, this is not how it should be, I don't want this, please fix, please change". It's gonna be a tough few years.
In a broader context, the precident this sets genuinely boths me.
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
The issue isn't corruption its people pvping the game out of a reasonable market. Corruption is there to put rules and reduce it, not to remove pvp.
That is where you are getting your logic mixed up because "fix" for you means it can't happen anymore. Which again the point of corruption isn't to "fix" (ie remove all pvp) it is there to reduce it by a large margin.
Other features like seeing he HP bar and such further supports it again reducing the amount of pvp.
In a broader context, the precident this sets genuinely boths me.
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
Yes. Like, that's how Intrepid develops things in general. It's been that way, from the start, and I don't say this as a bad thing or a thing they should be 'ashamed of'.
From the beginning they've had a somewhat 'let's try stuff and see what sticks, based on what I like and think can be made to work - Steven Paraphrased Sharif' approach.
You can't really argue with the initial results either, can you? Ashes of Creation has far more support and hype than it has direct criticism based on this approach (or used to, it's hard to tell if it changed and I'm biased now).
The only thing we can probably look to as a potential downside of this would be that Alpha-2 might be kinda long.
Ah yes, the old fall back for the L2 guys, invoke "The Steven". Do you think he's reading this thread? Do you think he's mad at me? Im frightened, someone hold me.
If we say we don't like a direction we are taking then it simply must be because we are not true believers.
Edit: deleted part of this, its hard to describe how infuriating responses like this are. Im not even going to enguage with it.
Again, the easy part is the avoidance of becoming a PKer. I don't care about anything that took place before that or after.
And again, if you were arguing in an honest manner (with yourself, I assume) where there is a potential situation you can see where a player should gain corruption but doesn't, the remedy you would be asking for is for them to be gaining corruption, not for a change to a totally unrelated system that you yourself agree wouldn't actually stop people from being able to avoid corruption in the manner you are talking about.
This is why you are looking crazy, and why I honestly can't take your argument as being anything other than that of from a position of nostelgia.
Once again, if a lack of corruption is your issue here, then the remedy you should be asking for is corruption in that situation.
In a broader context, the precident this sets genuinely boths me.
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
Yes. Like, that's how Intrepid develops things in general. It's been that way, from the start, and I don't say this as a bad thing or a thing they should be 'ashamed of'.
From the beginning they've had a somewhat 'let's try stuff and see what sticks, based on what I like and think can be made to work - Steven Paraphrased Sharif' approach.
You can't really argue with the initial results either, can you? Ashes of Creation has far more support and hype than it has direct criticism based on this approach (or used to, it's hard to tell if it changed and I'm biased now).
The only thing we can probably look to as a potential downside of this would be that Alpha-2 might be kinda long.
Ah yes, the old fall back for the L2 guys, invoke "The Steven". Do you think he's reading this thread? Do you think he's mad at me? Im frightened, someone hold me.
If we say we don't like a direction we are taking then it simply must be because we are not true believers.
By the nature of response filtering, that is in fact, how this works.
Steven makes a change, a subset of the potential playerbase say 'This sounds really bad I hope you don't do it', and Steven often goes 'we're gonna try it'. Then those who believe 'learn to accept it' until the next thing, and those who don't, Jahlon their way out (he has a new video btw!)
In a broader context, the precident this sets genuinely boths me.
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
Yes. Like, that's how Intrepid develops things in general. It's been that way, from the start, and I don't say this as a bad thing or a thing they should be 'ashamed of'.
From the beginning they've had a somewhat 'let's try stuff and see what sticks, based on what I like and think can be made to work - Steven Paraphrased Sharif' approach.
You can't really argue with the initial results either, can you? Ashes of Creation has far more support and hype than it has direct criticism based on this approach (or used to, it's hard to tell if it changed and I'm biased now).
The only thing we can probably look to as a potential downside of this would be that Alpha-2 might be kinda long.
Ah yes, the old fall back for the L2 guys, invoke "The Steven". Do you think he's reading this thread? Do you think he's mad at me? Im frightened, someone hold me.
If we say we don't like a direction we are taking then it simply must be because we are not true believers.
By the nature of response filtering, that is in fact, how this works.
Steven makes a change, a subset of the potential playerbase say 'This sounds really bad I hope you don't do it', and Steven often goes 'we're gonna try it'. Then those who believe 'learn to accept it' until the next thing, and those who don't, Jahlon their way out (he has a new video btw!)
But, at the same time, Ashes is not for everyone.
Like I said, going to this first sets a bad precident.
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HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In a broader context, the precident this sets genuinely boths me.
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
I can tell you now because I have been visited by the mystics and engaged in copious amounts of illicit substances in order to gaze into the future and shaken my magic 8 ball and thanks to doing so, reached an epiphany. Which is yes. There's going to be many more threads like this come A2 and the floodgates open. The deluge of shit, piss and cum that will be smeared across these forum walls will make a warumungu truck stop bathroom smell sweet as roses and we'll all watch on in awe and it will be a wonderful time.
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
I feel like Intrepid knows that my opinion is that their entire Corruption system is entirely flawed and needs to be redone and reconsidered from the ground up.
I've posted to that effect many times in the related threads that constantly pop up, so it's probably just 'fatigue'.
And, like you, I know that the main response I can get in discussion a lot of the time is 'but it worked in L2'. Sometimes I can work through that with the poster (NiKr), and sometimes I can't. In general, I'd be happy to just have people that can articulate why precisely they want something instead of [that thing Mag7 does in conversations].
This didn't seem to be that thread type, so yeah, it's my endurance lapsing. No sarc.
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
I feel like Intrepid knows that my opinion is that their entire Corruption system is entirely flawed and needs to be redone and reconsidered from the ground up.
I've posted to that effect many times in the related threads that constantly pop up, so it's probably just 'fatigue'.
And, like you, I know that the main response I can get in discussion a lot of the time is 'but it worked in L2'. Sometimes I can work through that with the poster (NiKr), and sometimes I can't. In general, I'd be happy to just have people that can articulate why precisely they want something instead of [that thing Mag7 does in conversations].
This didn't seem to be that thread type, so yeah, it's my endurance lapsing. No sarc.
Under the bridge man. We are on page 9 I think, I think I'm feeling it too 🫡
This is why you are looking crazy, and why I honestly can't take your argument as being anything other than that of from a position of nostelgia.
If personal experience is nothing but nostalgia, then yes - this is that. But then I could say that your EQ2 pve preferences are also simply nostalgia and that kind of design could simply not work in current mmos, because when was the last game that had anything even close to that design?
This is the logic I seem to get from your current approach.
Like I've been saying. I've experienced (and done a bit myself) this abuse in L2. Quite often people would get corrupted because they misjudged their victim's hp values in relation to their attacks. Seeing any kind of hp value would make this particular abuse easier. I believe that is a problem that can be resolved by not having visible hp.
To me, not seeing hp in pvp is a normal design, which is why I don't see my suggestion as smth huge and abnormal. Obviously others think otherwise, because they have different experiences.
To me, the corruption system works fine (again, this abuse included), and I'm fine with Steven's changes to it to make it work better (at least until we see the details of corruption balancing). And I believe that making this hp change would be a good addition to make the system work better.
The 2 points above combine into the reasoning behind my discussions in this thread. If you consider this "nostalgia talking" - ok, I'm fine with that. This entire damn game is "Steven's nostalgia talking", so it's not like this is something new.
And on that note, I'd touch a bit on what Diamaht said. We're here for the exact purpose of giving Intrepid feedback. This thread had that exact purpose. And any and all responses and arguments in this thread server that purpose. And it'll be on Intrepid to decide which side they'll stick with. As for "do you think Steven reads this?" - no, I'm sure he doesn't. But I'm also sure that mods will at least give him a few pointers on what this thread was about, and probably a few main arguments for each side of the discussion. Cause afaik that's the mods' job (or at least a part of it). I'm also pretty sure Steven himself has said in the past that the team has discussed topics that were brought up on the forums in the past, so no, these 8 pages have not been spammed in vein
This is why you are looking crazy, and why I honestly can't take your argument as being anything other than that of from a position of nostelgia.
If personal experience is nothing but nostalgia, then yes - this is that. But then I could say that your EQ2 pve preferences are also simply nostalgia and that kind of design could simply not work in current mmos, because when was the last game that had anything even close to that design?
This is the logic I seem to get from your current approach.
Like I've been saying. I've experienced (and done a bit myself) this abuse in L2. Quite often people would get corrupted because they misjudged their victim's hp values in relation to their attacks. Seeing any kind of hp value would make this particular abuse easier. I believe that is a problem that can be resolved by not having visible hp.
To me, not seeing hp in pvp is a normal design, which is why I don't see my suggestion as smth huge and abnormal. Obviously others think otherwise, because they have different experiences.
To me, the corruption system works fine (again, this abuse included), and I'm fine with Steven's changes to it to make it work better (at least until we see the details of corruption balancing). And I believe that making this hp change would be a good addition to make the system work better.
The 2 points above combine into the reasoning behind my discussions in this thread. If you consider this "nostalgia talking" - ok, I'm fine with that. This entire damn game is "Steven's nostalgia talking", so it's not like this is something new.
And on that note, I'd touch a bit on what Diamaht said. We're here for the exact purpose of giving Intrepid feedback. This thread had that exact purpose. And any and all responses and arguments in this thread server that purpose. And it'll be on Intrepid to decide which side they'll stick with. As for "do you think Steven reads this?" - no, I'm sure he doesn't. But I'm also sure that mods will at least give him a few pointers on what this thread was about, and probably a few main arguments for each side of the discussion. Cause afaik that's the mods' job (or at least a part of it). I'm also pretty sure Steven himself has said in the past that the team has discussed topics that were brought up on the forums in the past, so no, these 8 pages have not been spammed in vein
You have to remember, for almost all of us combating other players utilizing hp as a reference is the norm. Perhaps I'm missing something but to me having that reference enables so many more possibilities in responce to aggression.
Yes, there are things it opens you up to, but you are a lot more free in your decision making with more info than less.
I'm confident something can be developed that lets us mitigate grief while not taking tools away from the player.
This is why you are looking crazy, and why I honestly can't take your argument as being anything other than that of from a position of nostelgia.
If personal experience is nothing but nostalgia, then yes - this is that. But then I could say that your EQ2 pve preferences are also simply nostalgia and that kind of design could simply not work in current mmos, because when was the last game that had anything even close to that design?
You could - except for the fact that I have never argued for EQ2 style content in Ashes.
Better content, sure, but not EQ2 style content. Taking specific aspects from EQ2 on occasion as well - but not a direct copy of the game.
Azherae's solution is the slightest change toward this and will actually not prevent them being attacked. PvE players will still have to get out of fight and move somewhere else. Which eventually make them choose to play other mmos better suited for them.
And as I said already, I know that this solution won't remove the abuse itself, it simply removes the ease of it.
I keep telling yall, but you keep bunching me up with other arguments. My only base argument has been "visible hp makes it easier to do this abuse". Azherae's change removes that ease. That's it. That's what I wanted
You keep calling it an abuse while it is not. It is an intended game mechanic.
Azherae's suggestion has also the weakness that players will be able to run with very low health around and anyone trying to engage in PvP with them will actually kill them in one shot and become corrupted.
Then what? Reduce the corruption penalties so if you kill a dozen players every day to have minimal impact?
Engaging with mobs must be a risky activity, and you must know with whom you play, if you can trust them or not.
Based on what we know at the moment, flagging & corruption system seems to be pretty decent. It is an enhanced version of Lineage 2 system with several reasonable adjustments made to significantly mitigate the risk of griefing. However, there is one more potential issue that needs to be addressed.
Currently, it is to possible to see the health bar of a player even if he is not a member of your group or raid, which can inadvertently aid griefers and turn healthy competition for bosses or locations into... ratting competition. For instance, a griefer could intentionally keep a player's HP low, while having little to no risk of killing that player. This tactic becomes particularly effective during moments when a party is engaged with a group of mobs; the griefer can focus on the tank or healer. This can still be achieved, even if only you can only see the segments on a health bar, especially with some practice.
If, however, players' health bars were only visible to their own party or raid members, this issue could be mitigated. This change would also open strategic possibilities like deliberately maintaining low HP to bait enemies. Upon being attacked and accidentally killed, a player could retaliate against their attacker who turns red without facing any penalties, potentially leading to the agressor dropping their gear upon defeat. In this scenario, both parties face a balanced mix of risk and reward, significantly reducing the likelihood of griefing.
In my opinion, this is the final adjustment needed to perfect the existing flagging and corruption system, making it truly balanced.
You give a very good point there!
A good adoption would be to have it only display the hp %/segment when you are x meters away from the enemy. That way you cannot be scouted from miles back but the enemy would have to actually come close to "look" at you. The party fighting the mobs would javelin to be careful that they aren't getting scouted by a sneaky ranger or Rouge. This can be done in several ways.
A good adoption would be to have it only display the hp %/segment when you are x meters away from the enemy. That way you cannot be scouted from miles back but the enemy would have to actually come close to "look" at you. The party fighting the mobs would javelin to be careful that they aren't getting scouted by a sneaky ranger or Rouge. This can be done in several ways.
[/quote]
Azherae's suggestion has also the weakness that players will be able to run with very low health around and anyone trying to engage in PvP with them will actually kill them in one shot and become corrupted.
Then what? Reduce the corruption penalties so if you kill a dozen players every day to have minimal impact?
Someone running around at near zero hp means they are not interacting with mobs in any way, and potentially even avoiding them. If the attacker decided to hit someone who's either standing around doing nothing or was just a random passerby - that's on the attacker, not the system.
I'm against pointless killing (or even attacks), so to me this is a counter against the people who would do that. This is also one of the reasons why I'm against players dropping loot on death, because now there's a higher chance that anyone might attack anyone at any time, which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be.
I must admit that removing health bars are something that we as a community would never agree to within an MMO setting. It is very important for PvE and PvP interactions and there is a reason that no mainstream MMO in the past 15 years or so has tried to do it.
So much wrong with this take.
You would still see your party, and guild health bars.
Just because no "mainstream" mmo has attempted it, does not mean it's a bad idea. Since most mainstream MMOs suck.
Sometimes it doesn't matter if the community agrees, if Steven wants it, it will likely happen.
Personally I was disappointed enough to hear about the incremental health bars, this would be even worse and isn't something I would vote for I'm afraid.
The segmented HP bars is probably the best option if we're going to see any at all.
If we hide hp pools we should probably hide class icons, spell effects, weapon types, gear, etc.
I probably wouldn't mix it, as it might be a topic for a different discussion.[/quo9
It's a joke.
The argument for hiding seems to be either based on a perceived skill in knowing hp values and/or the ability to avoid corruption via using mobs. Hiding gear, spells, etc all achieves the same things things as the arguments for hp, so why not hide all of it!
You say its a joke but you are still going it it even though you know the clear connection people are trying to make keeping people at low hp to escape corruption.
Onto your joke points, yes you shouldn't be able to view some ones gear, skills, build, etc by clicking on them.
Should you even be able to see their gear? How about a clown suit skin shown for every player not in your group?
If someone is keeping you at low hp you can either call a friend to help you kill them or simply move to somewhere else. Frankly it isn't going to be as large of an issue as you are making it out to be. That in addition to the negative effect on group combat make hiding hp values a poor design choice.
You are underestimating pvpers, People make montages of doing this. If it is effective expect people to do this constantly.
Going on the assumption you think people won't remove some piece of gear and keep you low is silly. You drop mats on death, that is easy money.
I said it not as big of an issue as you are making it out to be as it's easily countered by simply having a friend or moving.
Azherae's suggestion has also the weakness that players will be able to run with very low health around and anyone trying to engage in PvP with them will actually kill them in one shot and become corrupted.
Then what? Reduce the corruption penalties so if you kill a dozen players every day to have minimal impact?
Someone running around at near zero hp means they are not interacting with mobs in any way, and potentially even avoiding them. If the attacker decided to hit someone who's either standing around doing nothing or was just a random passerby - that's on the attacker, not the system.
I'm against pointless killing (or even attacks), so to me this is a counter against the people who would do that. This is also one of the reasons why I'm against players dropping loot on death, because now there's a higher chance that anyone might attack anyone at any time, which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be.
Someone running around with low health might know well how to survive and the attacker will not know know if he faces a full health farmer loaded with loot or a player willing to just put corruption on him.
As it is now, seeing that a player refuses to answer PvP even when when his health drops below 25% can be an indication that he has nothing of value.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times:
Players will gank other players, but the intention is for Ashes of Creation to not be a "gank box".[52]
If that is balanced as described, then killing 1-2 players every day will be fine.
If killing other (green) players would be seen as a bad game mechanic, we would not have
"Corruption duration is reduced in military nodes.[74]"
You do not seem to resonate with the main goals of the game.
Do you think you will enjoy it?
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
I mean players before joining to play the game should already be aware how the game works. It's not that hard to understand that it is not a PvE game. Maybe some soloers will join after seeing an add somewhere but even adds will highlight that
Around 80% of the content is open-world, where competition is- healthy competition is an instigator for soft player friction; for potential cooperation; for the ability to yield alliances; and the political theater that comes with it. So that's an intended part of the PvX design of Ashes. It's a core philosophical point. And just to be clear, that is not for everyone. We are not trying to make a product that appeals to every MMO gamer.
If we hide hp pools we should probably hide class icons, spell effects, weapon types, gear, etc.
I probably wouldn't mix it, as it might be a topic for a different discussion.[/quo9
It's a joke.
The argument for hiding seems to be either based on a perceived skill in knowing hp values and/or the ability to avoid corruption via using mobs. Hiding gear, spells, etc all achieves the same things things as the arguments for hp, so why not hide all of it!
You say its a joke but you are still going it it even though you know the clear connection people are trying to make keeping people at low hp to escape corruption.
Onto your joke points, yes you shouldn't be able to view some ones gear, skills, build, etc by clicking on them.
Should you even be able to see their gear? How about a clown suit skin shown for every player not in your group?
If someone is keeping you at low hp you can either call a friend to help you kill them or simply move to somewhere else. Frankly it isn't going to be as large of an issue as you are making it out to be. That in addition to the negative effect on group combat make hiding hp values a poor design choice.
You are underestimating pvpers, People make montages of doing this. If it is effective expect people to do this constantly.
Going on the assumption you think people won't remove some piece of gear and keep you low is silly. You drop mats on death, that is easy money.
I said it not as big of an issue as you are making it out to be as it's easily countered by simply having a friend or moving.
You mean moving to another spot ? If you leave your spot that means the person has won as well.
It doesn't matter if you have friends this whole argument is about the attacker having an advantage meaning more power and more power. This doesn't work if you are weaker than the person unless that person refuses to pvp no matter what.
Comments
The griefer doesn't care about people who fight back. He'll simply die to them and not touch them again. He's looking for prey that won't fight back. And he'll spend as much of his time as possible harassing such prey. That's his goal.
Again, the easy part is the avoidance of becoming a PKer. I don't care about anything that took place before that or after.
And the alt is simply for rep preservation. If the griefer doesn't care about his rep - the alt doesn't even enter the equation.
I keep telling yall, but you keep bunching me up with other arguments. My only base argument has been "visible hp makes it easier to do this abuse". Azherae's change removes that ease. That's it. That's what I wanted
We didn't get to here after testing and experimentation, we are not even in Alpha 2 yet. Information hiding was the go to, it's the first thing we tried.
And this topic isn't just a hypothetical forum suggestion. The segmented HP bars show that.
Is this what we are going to go to every time the corruption system has a problem?
Yes. Like, that's how Intrepid develops things in general. It's been that way, from the start, and I don't say this as a bad thing or a thing they should be 'ashamed of'.
From the beginning they've had a somewhat 'let's try stuff and see what sticks, based on what I like and think can be made to work - Steven Paraphrased Sharif' approach.
You can't really argue with the initial results either, can you? Ashes of Creation has far more support and hype than it has direct criticism based on this approach (or used to, it's hard to tell if it changed and I'm biased now).
The only thing we can probably look to as a potential downside of this would be that Alpha-2 might be kinda long.
The issue isn't corruption its people pvping the game out of a reasonable market. Corruption is there to put rules and reduce it, not to remove pvp.
That is where you are getting your logic mixed up because "fix" for you means it can't happen anymore. Which again the point of corruption isn't to "fix" (ie remove all pvp) it is there to reduce it by a large margin.
Other features like seeing he HP bar and such further supports it again reducing the amount of pvp.
Ah yes, the old fall back for the L2 guys, invoke "The Steven". Do you think he's reading this thread? Do you think he's mad at me? Im frightened, someone hold me.
If we say we don't like a direction we are taking then it simply must be because we are not true believers.
Edit: deleted part of this, its hard to describe how infuriating responses like this are. Im not even going to enguage with it.
And again, if you were arguing in an honest manner (with yourself, I assume) where there is a potential situation you can see where a player should gain corruption but doesn't, the remedy you would be asking for is for them to be gaining corruption, not for a change to a totally unrelated system that you yourself agree wouldn't actually stop people from being able to avoid corruption in the manner you are talking about.
This is why you are looking crazy, and why I honestly can't take your argument as being anything other than that of from a position of nostelgia.
Once again, if a lack of corruption is your issue here, then the remedy you should be asking for is corruption in that situation.
By the nature of response filtering, that is in fact, how this works.
Steven makes a change, a subset of the potential playerbase say 'This sounds really bad I hope you don't do it', and Steven often goes 'we're gonna try it'. Then those who believe 'learn to accept it' until the next thing, and those who don't, Jahlon their way out (he has a new video btw!)
But, at the same time, Ashes is not for everyone.
Like I said, going to this first sets a bad precident.
I can tell you now because I have been visited by the mystics and engaged in copious amounts of illicit substances in order to gaze into the future and shaken my magic 8 ball and thanks to doing so, reached an epiphany. Which is yes. There's going to be many more threads like this come A2 and the floodgates open. The deluge of shit, piss and cum that will be smeared across these forum walls will make a warumungu truck stop bathroom smell sweet as roses and we'll all watch on in awe and it will be a wonderful time.
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
I feel like Intrepid knows that my opinion is that their entire Corruption system is entirely flawed and needs to be redone and reconsidered from the ground up.
I've posted to that effect many times in the related threads that constantly pop up, so it's probably just 'fatigue'.
And, like you, I know that the main response I can get in discussion a lot of the time is 'but it worked in L2'. Sometimes I can work through that with the poster (NiKr), and sometimes I can't. In general, I'd be happy to just have people that can articulate why precisely they want something instead of [that thing Mag7 does in conversations].
This didn't seem to be that thread type, so yeah, it's my endurance lapsing. No sarc.
Under the bridge man. We are on page 9 I think, I think I'm feeling it too 🫡
This is the logic I seem to get from your current approach.
Like I've been saying. I've experienced (and done a bit myself) this abuse in L2. Quite often people would get corrupted because they misjudged their victim's hp values in relation to their attacks. Seeing any kind of hp value would make this particular abuse easier. I believe that is a problem that can be resolved by not having visible hp.
To me, not seeing hp in pvp is a normal design, which is why I don't see my suggestion as smth huge and abnormal. Obviously others think otherwise, because they have different experiences.
To me, the corruption system works fine (again, this abuse included), and I'm fine with Steven's changes to it to make it work better (at least until we see the details of corruption balancing). And I believe that making this hp change would be a good addition to make the system work better.
The 2 points above combine into the reasoning behind my discussions in this thread. If you consider this "nostalgia talking" - ok, I'm fine with that. This entire damn game is "Steven's nostalgia talking", so it's not like this is something new.
And on that note, I'd touch a bit on what Diamaht said. We're here for the exact purpose of giving Intrepid feedback. This thread had that exact purpose. And any and all responses and arguments in this thread server that purpose. And it'll be on Intrepid to decide which side they'll stick with. As for "do you think Steven reads this?" - no, I'm sure he doesn't. But I'm also sure that mods will at least give him a few pointers on what this thread was about, and probably a few main arguments for each side of the discussion. Cause afaik that's the mods' job (or at least a part of it). I'm also pretty sure Steven himself has said in the past that the team has discussed topics that were brought up on the forums in the past, so no, these 8 pages have not been spammed in vein
You have to remember, for almost all of us combating other players utilizing hp as a reference is the norm. Perhaps I'm missing something but to me having that reference enables so many more possibilities in responce to aggression.
Yes, there are things it opens you up to, but you are a lot more free in your decision making with more info than less.
I'm confident something can be developed that lets us mitigate grief while not taking tools away from the player.
But yes, I can see the L2 perspective on it.
Better content, sure, but not EQ2 style content. Taking specific aspects from EQ2 on occasion as well - but not a direct copy of the game.
You keep calling it an abuse while it is not. It is an intended game mechanic.
Azherae's suggestion has also the weakness that players will be able to run with very low health around and anyone trying to engage in PvP with them will actually kill them in one shot and become corrupted.
Then what? Reduce the corruption penalties so if you kill a dozen players every day to have minimal impact?
Engaging with mobs must be a risky activity, and you must know with whom you play, if you can trust them or not.
You give a very good point there!
A good adoption would be to have it only display the hp %/segment when you are x meters away from the enemy. That way you cannot be scouted from miles back but the enemy would have to actually come close to "look" at you. The party fighting the mobs would javelin to be careful that they aren't getting scouted by a sneaky ranger or Rouge. This can be done in several ways.
You give a very good point there!
A good adoption would be to have it only display the hp %/segment when you are x meters away from the enemy. That way you cannot be scouted from miles back but the enemy would have to actually come close to "look" at you. The party fighting the mobs would javelin to be careful that they aren't getting scouted by a sneaky ranger or Rouge. This can be done in several ways.
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Not javelin but: "would have to be"
Mobile can be such a pain
I'm against pointless killing (or even attacks), so to me this is a counter against the people who would do that. This is also one of the reasons why I'm against players dropping loot on death, because now there's a higher chance that anyone might attack anyone at any time, which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be.
So much wrong with this take.
The segmented HP bars is probably the best option if we're going to see any at all.
Someone running around with low health might know well how to survive and the attacker will not know know if he faces a full health farmer loaded with loot or a player willing to just put corruption on him.
As it is now, seeing that a player refuses to answer PvP even when when his health drops below 25% can be an indication that he has nothing of value.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times:
Players will gank other players, but the intention is for Ashes of Creation to not be a "gank box".[52]
If that is balanced as described, then killing 1-2 players every day will be fine.
If killing other (green) players would be seen as a bad game mechanic, we would not have
"Corruption duration is reduced in military nodes.[74]"
You do not seem to resonate with the main goals of the game.
Do you think you will enjoy it?
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
I mean players before joining to play the game should already be aware how the game works. It's not that hard to understand that it is not a PvE game. Maybe some soloers will join after seeing an add somewhere but even adds will highlight that
Around 80% of the content is open-world, where competition is- healthy competition is an instigator for soft player friction; for potential cooperation; for the ability to yield alliances; and the political theater that comes with it. So that's an intended part of the PvX design of Ashes. It's a core philosophical point. And just to be clear, that is not for everyone. We are not trying to make a product that appeals to every MMO gamer.