Azherae's suggestion has also the weakness that players will be able to run with very low health around and anyone trying to engage in PvP with them will actually kill them in one shot and become corrupted.
Then what? Reduce the corruption penalties so if you kill a dozen players every day to have minimal impact?
Someone running around at near zero hp means they are not interacting with mobs in any way, and potentially even avoiding them. If the attacker decided to hit someone who's either standing around doing nothing or was just a random passerby - that's on the attacker, not the system.
I'm against pointless killing (or even attacks), so to me this is a counter against the people who would do that. This is also one of the reasons why I'm against players dropping loot on death, because now there's a higher chance that anyone might attack anyone at any time, which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be.
Someone running around with low health might know well how to survive and the attacker will not know know if he faces a full health farmer loaded with loot or a player willing to just put corruption on him.
As it is now, seeing that a player refuses to answer PvP even when when his health drops below 25% can be an indication that he has nothing of value.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times:
Players will gank other players, but the intention is for Ashes of Creation to not be a "gank box".[52]
If that is balanced as described, then killing 1-2 players every day will be fine.
If killing other (green) players would be seen as a bad game mechanic, we would not have
"Corruption duration is reduced in military nodes.[74]"
You do not seem to resonate with the main goals of the game.
Do you think you will enjoy it?
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
I mean players before joining to play the game should already be aware how the game works. It's not that hard to understand that it is not a PvE game. Maybe some soloers will join after seeing an add somewhere but even adds will highlight that
Around 80% of the content is open-world, where competition is- healthy competition is an instigator for soft player friction; for potential cooperation; for the ability to yield alliances; and the political theater that comes with it. So that's an intended part of the PvX design of Ashes. It's a core philosophical point. And just to be clear, that is not for everyone. We are not trying to make a product that appeals to every MMO gamer.
The whole intent of the system is if you are pvping you are committing to potential gain. So if you attack someone random at 25% than you highly had intent to kill them anyway as the most likely were not even fighting mobs.
I mentioned before but to add to this even if you see their hp in bars, you shouldn't be able to see their HP until you hit them first atleast and it should last a certain amount of time. That also adds more risk if people are fighting mobs and you have no clue what their hp it. IT is just more of a half measure than being able to click and see it before hand.
I mentioned before but to add to this even if you see their hp in bars, you shouldn't be able to see their HP until you hit them first atleast and it should last a certain amount of time. That also adds more risk if people are fighting mobs and you have no clue what their hp it. IT is just more of a half measure than being able to click and see it before hand.
I actually like this compromise.
It would reduce purposeful low-HP gank scenarios, while flagging the attacker for reactive retaliation by the defender.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Yes, it's meant to be a russian roulette for the attacker, because otherwise the attacker is free to control what the victim can do. That's kinda the entire point of this discussion.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Yes, it's meant to be a russian roulette for the attacker, because otherwise the attacker is free to control what the victim can do. That's kinda the entire point of this discussion.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
Your vision is a bad mmo, intended for PvE players.
You are against the emotions the risk vs reward philosophy brings.
Yes, some players get negative emotions of anger and hate but that is their problem. Steven knows that and gave no hint to tailor the game to attract many of them.
Those who cannot deal with being attacked and loosing some of their resources (it is not even a full loot game!) should not play this game.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
Because he has this possibility, it makes no sense for him to remove the health bar. That would be an early commitment for him, before he even sees the Alpha 2.
What happens at the end of the Alpha 2 is not easy to predict.
It can take 2 years until we reach that point. Who knows what other MMOs are released. This week was a presentation about Dune Awakening. Pax Dei and The Quinfall are coming soon too. Each will chip some players away. And after two years of testing and seeing Steven giving in to people like you could demotivate the present players and end up releasing for an unknown audience which may or may not come.
I doubt Steven can and wants to compete with PvE mmo's having big publishers behind them.
He relies onto the current players who payed a lot to get access to Alpha 2 and who will continue to buy cosmetics if they sell any. And those players payed for a game described with risk vs reward and open world PvP.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Yes, it's meant to be a russian roulette for the attacker, because otherwise the attacker is free to control what the victim can do. That's kinda the entire point of this discussion.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
This week was a presentation about Dune Awakening. Pax Dei and The Quinfall are coming soon too.
All 3 of these games have very little in common with AoC. You might as well just said a list of every game being released.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Yes, it's meant to be a russian roulette for the attacker, because otherwise the attacker is free to control what the victim can do. That's kinda the entire point of this discussion.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
This week was a presentation about Dune Awakening. Pax Dei and The Quinfall are coming soon too.
All 3 of these games have very little in common with AoC. You might as well just said a list of every game being released.
I forgot to mention Palworld.
And Palia.
Would you support the suggestions of Palworld or Palia players to make AoC a better game?
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Yes, it's meant to be a russian roulette for the attacker, because otherwise the attacker is free to control what the victim can do. That's kinda the entire point of this discussion.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
This week was a presentation about Dune Awakening. Pax Dei and The Quinfall are coming soon too.
All 3 of these games have very little in common with AoC. You might as well just said a list of every game being released.
I forgot to mention Palworld.
And Palia.
Would you support the suggestions of Palworld or Palia players to make AoC a better game?
That literally makes no sense in the context of your previous discussion. I was just pointing out games you said that would "chip away" players.
As I stated, you might as well said all games, because every game has a chance to chip away a player.
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Yes, it's meant to be a russian roulette for the attacker, because otherwise the attacker is free to control what the victim can do. That's kinda the entire point of this discussion.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
Your vision is a bad mmo, intended for PvE players.
You are against the emotions the risk vs reward philosophy brings.
Yes, some players get negative emotions of anger and hate but that is their problem. Steven knows that and gave no hint to tailor the game to attract many of them.
Those who cannot deal with being attacked and loosing some of their resources (it is not even a full loot game!) should not play this game.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
Because he has this possibility, it makes no sense for him to remove the health bar. That would be an early commitment for him, before he even sees the Alpha 2.
What happens at the end of the Alpha 2 is not easy to predict.
It can take 2 years until we reach that point. Who knows what other MMOs are released. This week was a presentation about Dune Awakening. Pax Dei and The Quinfall are coming soon too. Each will chip some players away. And after two years of testing and seeing Steven giving in to people like you could demotivate the present players and end up releasing for an unknown audience which may or may not come.
I doubt Steven can and wants to compete with PvE mmo's having big publishers behind them.
He relies onto the current players who payed a lot to get access to Alpha 2 and who will continue to buy cosmetics if they sell any. And those players payed for a game described with risk vs reward and open world PvP.
Th point of this is to balance it out and have player intention on killing over harassment. One change doesn't make it go from 0-100%. It will make a % of players not as keen on using it to harass. The corruption system is intended for soft friction to keep the player base heathy.
You need to also realize there is going to be more clear pvp without corruption linked, Corruption PvP will be the least pvp people do that is the point of the system. With PvP more focused on guild / node / kingdom wars.
People need to get corruption pvp as the main pvp out of their head.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
This is a very funny thing to say, considering that the game where he took this exact pvp system from had neither visible hp nor player loot, yet had a shitton of pvp
No visible health bar eliminates the possibility of putting pressure onto the green player to defend and becomes a russian roulette for the attacker.
Yes, it's meant to be a russian roulette for the attacker, because otherwise the attacker is free to control what the victim can do. That's kinda the entire point of this discussion.
Pointless killing is when the killer gets nothing out of that kill, not even fun. But players must drop something to make both sides want to fight, the attacker to get whatever drops and the defender to keep his stuff.
The corruption is not meant to prevent killing but to prevent killing repeatedly many times
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
You refer to yourself when you say "which just makes people even more annoyed with the flagging system than they will already be" ?
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
Your vision is a bad mmo, intended for PvE players.
You are against the emotions the risk vs reward philosophy brings.
Yes, some players get negative emotions of anger and hate but that is their problem. Steven knows that and gave no hint to tailor the game to attract many of them.
Those who cannot deal with being attacked and loosing some of their resources (it is not even a full loot game!) should not play this game.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
Because he has this possibility, it makes no sense for him to remove the health bar. That would be an early commitment for him, before he even sees the Alpha 2.
What happens at the end of the Alpha 2 is not easy to predict.
It can take 2 years until we reach that point. Who knows what other MMOs are released. This week was a presentation about Dune Awakening. Pax Dei and The Quinfall are coming soon too. Each will chip some players away. And after two years of testing and seeing Steven giving in to people like you could demotivate the present players and end up releasing for an unknown audience which may or may not come.
I doubt Steven can and wants to compete with PvE mmo's having big publishers behind them.
He relies onto the current players who payed a lot to get access to Alpha 2 and who will continue to buy cosmetics if they sell any. And those players payed for a game described with risk vs reward and open world PvP.
Th point of this is to balance it out and have player intention on killing over harassment. One change doesn't make it go from 0-100%. It will make a % of players not as keen on using it to harass. The corruption system is intended for soft friction to keep the player base heathy.
You need to also realize there is going to be more clear pvp without corruption linked, Corruption PvP will be the least pvp people do that is the point of the system. With PvP more focused on guild / node / kingdom wars.
People need to get corruption pvp as the main pvp out of their head.
I doubt there will be much PvP in the open world between citizens of the same node.
But citizens fighting at the borders between enemy nations must have the possibility to harass each-other, if they have a political reason to do that, even if they are not in a full war. They will also relocate players within enemy territory to act as bad citizens and avoid the node vs node cases. But you will know the people you play with. The first thing you will look for is not the player's name but his guild name. That is what you have to say first in discord to your guild mates.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
This is a very funny thing to say, considering that the game where he took this exact pvp system from had neither visible hp nor player loot, yet had a shitton of pvp
I dont see how people don't' realize people will do whatever to PvP with half loot drops. When I played shadowbane legit everyone was pk on sight to make money since every person was a loot box pretty much.
It won't be that that extent with AoC but there is going to be a desire to loot other player bodies which increases pvp and player death.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
This is a very funny thing to say, considering that the game where he took this exact pvp system from had neither visible hp nor player loot, yet had a shitton of pvp
I am telling this to you to show that making the health bar invisible is an unnecessary step at this point and also later, because Steven has enough tools to move the balance in both ways. Also he added the full pvp deep ocean area to ensure players who might be unhappy later will have a place to go.
I know he can do that. If he will do it or not remains to be seen. He cannot decide yet and neither can we.
We need to see the game first.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
This is a very funny thing to say, considering that the game where he took this exact pvp system from had neither visible hp nor player loot, yet had a shitton of pvp
I dont see how people don't' realize people will do whatever to PvP with half loot drops. When I played shadowbane legit everyone was pk on sight to make money since every person was a loot box pretty much.
It won't be that that extent with AoC but there is going to be a desire to loot other player bodies which increases pvp and player death.
There was no such game like AoC before, with citizenship and loosely bound nodes together into nations which can offer PvE and highest level of crafting benches depending on having a metropolis or not. And with scarce resources.
If things are balanced well, players killing each-other will introduce more resources being lost into the sink. The small gain of individual players will be reflected at the top of the pyramid. Nations will rise and fall and those where citizens fight each-other often will fall faster.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
This is a very funny thing to say, considering that the game where he took this exact pvp system from had neither visible hp nor player loot, yet had a shitton of pvp
I dont see how people don't' realize people will do whatever to PvP with half loot drops. When I played shadowbane legit everyone was pk on sight to make money since every person was a loot box pretty much.
It won't be that that extent with AoC but there is going to be a desire to loot other player bodies which increases pvp and player death.
There was no such game like AoC before, with citizenship and loosely bound nodes together into nations which can offer PvE and highest level of crafting benches depending on having a metropolis or not. And with scarce resources.
If things are balanced well, players killing each-other will introduce more resources being lost into the sink. The small gain of individual players will be reflected at the top of the pyramid. Nations will rise and fall and those where citizens fight each-other often will fall faster.
You literally are missing the point...All of that has nothing to do with escaping the intended punishment of corruption...
I have a strong feeling there is going to be a lot of people trying to feed people to mobs and people want to make sure they can do it here lmao.
Dying to mobs in BDO can make you lose a lot of money but you don't get any loot off them dying yourself. This is a go to in BDO tot he point BDO started enforcing and changing how things work so people don't get punished if being fed to mobs.
I have a strong feeling there is going to be a lot of people trying to feed people to mobs and people want to make sure they can do it here lmao.
I'd post a video about "greatest losses on L2 classic servers", but it's in russian. But the premise is that classic servers had design of "you can drop any item on you as long as a mob kills you", and so people did their best to fuck over their war enemies or just other randos with valuable items.
L2 items are usually valued with real money, cause rmt is rampant, so the video shows items that costed $1-3k. Few of them were Epic Jewelry (only a few dozen on the server) and super OEd weapons (+16 and +18, when the safe limit is +3).
So yeah, I can't wait for mob trains that will be dropped onto high value gatherers or confirmed raid looters. I'd imagine those valuable players will at least flag back up to minimize their losses, but we'll have to see if they do.
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Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
This is a very funny thing to say, considering that the game where he took this exact pvp system from had neither visible hp nor player loot, yet had a shitton of pvp
I dont see how people don't' realize people will do whatever to PvP with half loot drops. When I played shadowbane legit everyone was pk on sight to make money since every person was a loot box pretty much.
It won't be that that extent with AoC but there is going to be a desire to loot other player bodies which increases pvp and player death.
They'll do at a loss, for kicks. Nikr mentioned videos. You'll find a thousand of those for Eve. In english.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
PvP with loot drop is casual? That is a more hardcore mechanic, the point is to to reduce harassment which reduces the literarily culling of casual players by way of them being pvp and killed off in the world indirectly.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
PvP with loot drop is casual? That is a more hardcore mechanic, the point is to to reduce harassment which reduces the literarily culling of casual players by way of them being pvp and killed off in the world indirectly.
A good goal to have. And if the solution drives off as many as the disease them we should look for a different solution. That's what testing is for.
We are flat out telling you the effect of turning off hp bars will be for folks who didn't play L2. We are not making this stuff up.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
PvP with loot drop is casual? That is a more hardcore mechanic, the point is to to reduce harassment which reduces the literarily culling of casual players by way of them being pvp and killed off in the world indirectly.
On the gank side, CCP actually tested this type of effect out. They actually found that people who lost a ship and/or got podded early on (like in the first couple weeks) stayed in the game far longer than those who never got pk'd.
So they put a section into the tutorial where the npcs come and blow up the ship the game gave you. And retention went up! Rolf...Def didn't expect that.
In the end we might find that getting pk'd early on actually increases player investment and retention 😅
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
PvP with loot drop is casual? That is a more hardcore mechanic, the point is to to reduce harassment which reduces the literarily culling of casual players by way of them being pvp and killed off in the world indirectly.
A good goal to have. And if the solution drives off as many as the disease them we should look for a different solution. That's what testing is for.
We are flat out telling you the effect of turning off hp bars will be for folks who didn't play L2. We are not making this stuff up.
These types of solutions isn't going to drive anyone off just because you can't see a player hp bar. That will just be apart of the game and doesn't stop you from deciding how to use your skills.
I didn't play L2 And I'm telling you its not just for L2 people. In fact I've already shared videos of people doing this and devs having to take action on this very issue because people will feed to mobs like its the norm.
Where i show videos of players doing, devs talking about the issue and having their own solution in their type of game. You are just here saying you want hp bars and don't care about anything else, on top of saying if people do it that is just part of pvp.
Either it sounds like you want to be targeting people almost dead near mobs, or you are looking for some way to get easy picks when someone is almost dead as your gameplay to stat pad.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
PvP with loot drop is casual? That is a more hardcore mechanic, the point is to to reduce harassment which reduces the literarily culling of casual players by way of them being pvp and killed off in the world indirectly.
A good goal to have. And if the solution drives off as many as the disease them we should look for a different solution. That's what testing is for.
We are flat out telling you the effect of turning off hp bars will be for folks who didn't play L2. We are not making this stuff up.
These types of solutions isn't going to drive anyone off just because you can't see a player hp bar. That will just be apart of the game and doesn't stop you from deciding how to use your skills.
I didn't play L2 And I'm telling you its not just for L2 people. In fact I've already shared videos of people doing this and devs having to take action on this very issue because people will feed to mobs like its the norm.
Where i show videos of players doing, devs talking about the issue and having their own solution in their type of game. You are just here saying you want hp bars and don't care about anything else, on top of saying if people do it that is just part of pvp.
Either it sounds like you want to be targeting people almost dead near mobs, or you are looking for some way to get easy picks when someone is almost dead as your gameplay to stat pad.
Good that you are alway here to speak for me, put words in my mouth, and decode all my secret evil thoughts.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
No Health Bar would be a design for Hardcore Challenge fans.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
PvP with loot drop is casual? That is a more hardcore mechanic, the point is to to reduce harassment which reduces the literarily culling of casual players by way of them being pvp and killed off in the world indirectly.
A good goal to have. And if the solution drives off as many as the disease them we should look for a different solution. That's what testing is for.
We are flat out telling you the effect of turning off hp bars will be for folks who didn't play L2. We are not making this stuff up.
These types of solutions isn't going to drive anyone off just because you can't see a player hp bar. That will just be apart of the game and doesn't stop you from deciding how to use your skills.
I didn't play L2 And I'm telling you its not just for L2 people. In fact I've already shared videos of people doing this and devs having to take action on this very issue because people will feed to mobs like its the norm.
Where i show videos of players doing, devs talking about the issue and having their own solution in their type of game. You are just here saying you want hp bars and don't care about anything else, on top of saying if people do it that is just part of pvp.
Either it sounds like you want to be targeting people almost dead near mobs, or you are looking for some way to get easy picks when someone is almost dead as your gameplay to stat pad.
Good that you are alway here to speak for me, put words in my mouth, and decode all my secret evil thoughts.
I can have my thoughts on what it sounds like, you are free to explain what exactly changes on seeing hp. There is not that many options if you are trying to target people based on hp over an actual objective to win a fight.
You are broadly saying things without giving details on how exactly that happens.
Where i made a statement about he casuals and also explained in reasoning why it benefits them. I didn't just make a statement without offering my insight and clear reasoning. Which allows to to combat my reasoning over me just saying what I think.
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
I feel like Intrepid knows that my opinion is that their entire Corruption system is entirely flawed and needs to be redone and reconsidered from the ground up.
I've posted to that effect many times in the related threads that constantly pop up, so it's probably just 'fatigue'.
And, like you, I know that the main response I can get in discussion a lot of the time is 'but it worked in L2'. Sometimes I can work through that with the poster (NiKr), and sometimes I can't. In general, I'd be happy to just have people that can articulate why precisely they want something instead of [that thing Mag7 does in conversations].
This didn't seem to be that thread type, so yeah, it's my endurance lapsing. No sarc.
how do you know the system is flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other, and havent been able to do playtests and tweak or change things based on those playtest?
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
I feel like Intrepid knows that my opinion is that their entire Corruption system is entirely flawed and needs to be redone and reconsidered from the ground up.
I've posted to that effect many times in the related threads that constantly pop up, so it's probably just 'fatigue'.
And, like you, I know that the main response I can get in discussion a lot of the time is 'but it worked in L2'. Sometimes I can work through that with the poster (NiKr), and sometimes I can't. In general, I'd be happy to just have people that can articulate why precisely they want something instead of [that thing Mag7 does in conversations].
This didn't seem to be that thread type, so yeah, it's my endurance lapsing. No sarc.
how do you know the system is flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other, and havent been able to do playtests and tweak or change things based on those playtest?
you must have a crystal ball too.
Oh ffs, don't Mag at me when I'm talking to normal people.
'my opinion', 'posted already so don't post again', and all that.
But I guess if you're 'demonstrating why I can't be bothered to post sometimes' for Diamaht, {Good job}.
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
I feel like Intrepid knows that my opinion is that their entire Corruption system is entirely flawed and needs to be redone and reconsidered from the ground up.
I've posted to that effect many times in the related threads that constantly pop up, so it's probably just 'fatigue'.
And, like you, I know that the main response I can get in discussion a lot of the time is 'but it worked in L2'. Sometimes I can work through that with the poster (NiKr), and sometimes I can't. In general, I'd be happy to just have people that can articulate why precisely they want something instead of [that thing Mag7 does in conversations].
This didn't seem to be that thread type, so yeah, it's my endurance lapsing. No sarc.
how do you know the system is flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other, and havent been able to do playtests and tweak or change things based on those playtest?
you must have a crystal ball too.
How do you know the system isn't flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other?
You must have a crystal ball too.
If you think alpha or beta testing is going to show whether the corruption system works as intended, you are mistaken.
Ok, then just for my clarity, Diamaht, was that post moreso just 'expressing frustration that it works that way', and not actually meant as an 'appeal to anyone to stop'?
It's not like I like it either, I just have to accept it because I can't change Intrepid. I'm super frustrated at the way decisions seem to be 'made' about all sorts of aspects of Ashes, but accepting that 'misery' is a literal prerequisite for continuing to be here. My friends can't even, so they just don't.
You said 'precedent set', but for me, who felt like this particular 'precedent' was set quite long ago, I just answered as if you were potentially someone who is actually not familiar 'how it works around here' in terms of Intrepid development.
I'm happy to add you to my list of 'disgruntled stoics', sorry about the answer type.
No worries.
If you don't like it either then you shouldn't just accept it. It your job to voice why its a problem.
That's the actual point of open development. Go after them when it's needed. They ask for it.
I feel like Intrepid knows that my opinion is that their entire Corruption system is entirely flawed and needs to be redone and reconsidered from the ground up.
I've posted to that effect many times in the related threads that constantly pop up, so it's probably just 'fatigue'.
And, like you, I know that the main response I can get in discussion a lot of the time is 'but it worked in L2'. Sometimes I can work through that with the poster (NiKr), and sometimes I can't. In general, I'd be happy to just have people that can articulate why precisely they want something instead of [that thing Mag7 does in conversations].
This didn't seem to be that thread type, so yeah, it's my endurance lapsing. No sarc.
how do you know the system is flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other, and havent been able to do playtests and tweak or change things based on those playtest?
you must have a crystal ball too.
How do you know the system isn't flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other?
You must have a crystal ball too.
If you think alpha or beta testing is going to show whether the corruption system works as intended, you are mistaken.
why would it not demonstrate if the system worked a intended?
i never claim to know the system isnt flawed. in theory, it seems an improvement, but i also dont have all the info, etc. but im not making claims that x system is bad. a lot of people in these forum make threads saying "if ashes doesnt do this, the game will fail". how do they know? do they have inside info we dont?
like ive said many times. just because something worked in a game, doesnt mean it will work in another one. you cant examine all the systems in isolation. you need to see how they work together and when you change something, it affects other aspects of the game.
Comments
The whole intent of the system is if you are pvping you are committing to potential gain. So if you attack someone random at 25% than you highly had intent to kill them anyway as the most likely were not even fighting mobs.
I actually like this compromise.
It would reduce purposeful low-HP gank scenarios, while flagging the attacker for reactive retaliation by the defender.
And I already said, I personally disagree with player loot. It won't stop me from playing the game cause it's not anywhere near a dealbreaker for me. I'm just voicing my preference, so that Intrepid have another pov on their designs, just as countless newcomer pvers like to say that the entire pvp system shouldn't exist.
I know I will
Nope, I'm talking about other people. I know Ashes is a niche game and all that, but nicheness is a relative term. I'd prefer if we didn't have 100 players by year two.
Your vision is a bad mmo, intended for PvE players.
You are against the emotions the risk vs reward philosophy brings.
Yes, some players get negative emotions of anger and hate but that is their problem. Steven knows that and gave no hint to tailor the game to attract many of them.
Those who cannot deal with being attacked and loosing some of their resources (it is not even a full loot game!) should not play this game.
However Steven can anytime balance the game and reduce the open world PvP by increasing the corruption penalties and reducing the percentage of dropped resources, to a point where it is not worth engaging in PvP anymore.
Because he has this possibility, it makes no sense for him to remove the health bar. That would be an early commitment for him, before he even sees the Alpha 2.
What happens at the end of the Alpha 2 is not easy to predict.
It can take 2 years until we reach that point. Who knows what other MMOs are released. This week was a presentation about Dune Awakening. Pax Dei and The Quinfall are coming soon too. Each will chip some players away. And after two years of testing and seeing Steven giving in to people like you could demotivate the present players and end up releasing for an unknown audience which may or may not come.
I doubt Steven can and wants to compete with PvE mmo's having big publishers behind them.
He relies onto the current players who payed a lot to get access to Alpha 2 and who will continue to buy cosmetics if they sell any. And those players payed for a game described with risk vs reward and open world PvP.
All 3 of these games have very little in common with AoC. You might as well just said a list of every game being released.
I forgot to mention Palworld.
And Palia.
Would you support the suggestions of Palworld or Palia players to make AoC a better game?
That literally makes no sense in the context of your previous discussion. I was just pointing out games you said that would "chip away" players.
As I stated, you might as well said all games, because every game has a chance to chip away a player.
Th point of this is to balance it out and have player intention on killing over harassment. One change doesn't make it go from 0-100%. It will make a % of players not as keen on using it to harass. The corruption system is intended for soft friction to keep the player base heathy.
You need to also realize there is going to be more clear pvp without corruption linked, Corruption PvP will be the least pvp people do that is the point of the system. With PvP more focused on guild / node / kingdom wars.
People need to get corruption pvp as the main pvp out of their head.
I doubt there will be much PvP in the open world between citizens of the same node.
But citizens fighting at the borders between enemy nations must have the possibility to harass each-other, if they have a political reason to do that, even if they are not in a full war. They will also relocate players within enemy territory to act as bad citizens and avoid the node vs node cases. But you will know the people you play with. The first thing you will look for is not the player's name but his guild name. That is what you have to say first in discord to your guild mates.
I dont see how people don't' realize people will do whatever to PvP with half loot drops. When I played shadowbane legit everyone was pk on sight to make money since every person was a loot box pretty much.
It won't be that that extent with AoC but there is going to be a desire to loot other player bodies which increases pvp and player death.
I am telling this to you to show that making the health bar invisible is an unnecessary step at this point and also later, because Steven has enough tools to move the balance in both ways. Also he added the full pvp deep ocean area to ensure players who might be unhappy later will have a place to go.
I know he can do that. If he will do it or not remains to be seen. He cannot decide yet and neither can we.
We need to see the game first.
There was no such game like AoC before, with citizenship and loosely bound nodes together into nations which can offer PvE and highest level of crafting benches depending on having a metropolis or not. And with scarce resources.
If things are balanced well, players killing each-other will introduce more resources being lost into the sink. The small gain of individual players will be reflected at the top of the pyramid. Nations will rise and fall and those where citizens fight each-other often will fall faster.
You literally are missing the point...All of that has nothing to do with escaping the intended punishment of corruption...
Dying to mobs in BDO can make you lose a lot of money but you don't get any loot off them dying yourself. This is a go to in BDO tot he point BDO started enforcing and changing how things work so people don't get punished if being fed to mobs.
It doesn't get any more obvious when the devs respond to it themselves that this will be a thing players will do so long as its effective.
L2 items are usually valued with real money, cause rmt is rampant, so the video shows items that costed $1-3k. Few of them were Epic Jewelry (only a few dozen on the server) and super OEd weapons (+16 and +18, when the safe limit is +3).
So yeah, I can't wait for mob trains that will be dropped onto high value gatherers or confirmed raid looters. I'd imagine those valuable players will at least flag back up to minimize their losses, but we'll have to see if they do.
So, expect that to cull significantly more Casual Challenge players and also cull significantly more RPG fans.
They'll do at a loss, for kicks. Nikr mentioned videos. You'll find a thousand of those for Eve. In english.
Yeah, this. Is it worth it, or should we try to find another way?
PvP with loot drop is casual? That is a more hardcore mechanic, the point is to to reduce harassment which reduces the literarily culling of casual players by way of them being pvp and killed off in the world indirectly.
A good goal to have. And if the solution drives off as many as the disease them we should look for a different solution. That's what testing is for.
We are flat out telling you the effect of turning off hp bars will be for folks who didn't play L2. We are not making this stuff up.
On the gank side, CCP actually tested this type of effect out. They actually found that people who lost a ship and/or got podded early on (like in the first couple weeks) stayed in the game far longer than those who never got pk'd.
So they put a section into the tutorial where the npcs come and blow up the ship the game gave you. And retention went up! Rolf...Def didn't expect that.
In the end we might find that getting pk'd early on actually increases player investment and retention 😅
These types of solutions isn't going to drive anyone off just because you can't see a player hp bar. That will just be apart of the game and doesn't stop you from deciding how to use your skills.
I didn't play L2 And I'm telling you its not just for L2 people. In fact I've already shared videos of people doing this and devs having to take action on this very issue because people will feed to mobs like its the norm.
Where i show videos of players doing, devs talking about the issue and having their own solution in their type of game. You are just here saying you want hp bars and don't care about anything else, on top of saying if people do it that is just part of pvp.
Either it sounds like you want to be targeting people almost dead near mobs, or you are looking for some way to get easy picks when someone is almost dead as your gameplay to stat pad.
Good that you are alway here to speak for me, put words in my mouth, and decode all my secret evil thoughts.
I can have my thoughts on what it sounds like, you are free to explain what exactly changes on seeing hp. There is not that many options if you are trying to target people based on hp over an actual objective to win a fight.
You are broadly saying things without giving details on how exactly that happens.
Where i made a statement about he casuals and also explained in reasoning why it benefits them. I didn't just make a statement without offering my insight and clear reasoning. Which allows to to combat my reasoning over me just saying what I think.
how do you know the system is flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other, and havent been able to do playtests and tweak or change things based on those playtest?
you must have a crystal ball too.
Oh ffs, don't Mag at me when I'm talking to normal people.
'my opinion', 'posted already so don't post again', and all that.
But I guess if you're 'demonstrating why I can't be bothered to post sometimes' for Diamaht, {Good job}.
How do you know the system isn't flawed when you dont have all the information about all the other systems and how they interact with each other?
You must have a crystal ball too.
If you think alpha or beta testing is going to show whether the corruption system works as intended, you are mistaken.
why would it not demonstrate if the system worked a intended?
i never claim to know the system isnt flawed. in theory, it seems an improvement, but i also dont have all the info, etc. but im not making claims that x system is bad. a lot of people in these forum make threads saying "if ashes doesnt do this, the game will fail". how do they know? do they have inside info we dont?
like ive said many times. just because something worked in a game, doesnt mean it will work in another one. you cant examine all the systems in isolation. you need to see how they work together and when you change something, it affects other aspects of the game.
i simply asked him how does he know