Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
The spectrum for PvX is always about the balance, interaction and simultaneous presence between the PvE and the PvP. Saying the PvE is not on a spectrum is irrelevant to the PvX discussion. It has to be in relation to PvP, not to itself.
Tarkov and Overwatch are not MMOs. Just multiplayer, not massively. The Planetside games are a great example of PvP MMOs though. They are also the only PvP MMOs I have played and know of. They actually fit the bill without all that required PvE that other MMOs have.
I haven't played Albion, but it clearly has elements of PvE like solo, group and open world dungeons and such as well, just from doing a quick search, and you need to PvE to level up. But sure, call it more PvP focused on the PvX spectrum if you want.
Look, we're not gonna agree on this. You are certainly not convincing me with any of those arguments, and I doubt I am changing your mind either.
The position you seem to hold is that Intrepid have said they want competition over resources, but will also have resources where there is no competition despite never saying anything to suggest this.
Your example of corruption preventing you from getting fish from a location makes no sense in the context of corruption being a negative resource that can be worked off - which is what it is.
I fully understand that if you ignore comments developers have made, you may well have opinions on this that are both perfectly logical and also vastly different to my own. However, when you consider the notion that resources in Ashes are literally intended to be fought over, your position that is based on them not being fought over doesn't make sense.
Of course we aren't - you are objectively wrong, and almost as stubborn as I am.
By your defintion of what a PvP MMORPG needs to be, there are none.
I mean, you seem to be not wanting to call Albion a PvP MMORPG despite the developer and publisher of the game calling it that - and despite MassivelyOP calling it the "Best PvP MMORPG" for three years in a row.
This is why I am comfortable with stating that your definition for "PvP MMORPG" is fundamentally, objectively wrong. You maintaining it as your opinion means you are saying that the developers, publishers and press for the product you are talking about all know less than you do.
I fundamentally do not think they know less than I do, which is why my definition isn't "my" definition - it is their definition and I just use it because it is objectively correct.
This comment tells me that you either didn't read my post, or didn't understand it at all.
I specifically called the above games and Planetside "PvP games". I didn't call them MMORPG's. I was illustrating the point that the definition for PvP in games in general is different to the definition of PvP in MMORPG's.
The three games above were examples of PvP games - not PvP MMORPG's.
Lol, I have been called stubborn before, that's true, but you are the one who is objectively in the wrong here about what a PvP MMO is. (This is a fun game isn't it?
Aren't you dismissing the PvX moniker from Steven in the same way? It's his game, so by your logic, he can call it a PvX game and it's the Truth, no matter what you think. He can call it PvE-centric, and by your logic he is still correct, because he knows more about it than anyone else. Trying to make an argument from authority like you do is a fallacy, you know?
Now, if the Albion developers called the game more PvP-centric or PvP-focused, I would have zero issues, and my guess is that is what they mean in the first place. Maybe they thought calling it PvPvE or PvX would confuse people. They still aren't widely used terms.
I understood. I was making a point that bringing in Tarkov and Overwatch are irrelevant to the discussion, because no, the definition of a "PvP game" doesn't change just because the genre is different. That's just something you made up. Or somebody else made up and you agreed with. Hell, even Tarkov isn't a pure PvP game. There are NPC scavs and their bosses you fight as a major and important component of the gameplay, which just undermines your argument a little more
I understand that for many people "PvP game" is just short-hand meaning the game has PvP elements in it. It is what it is, and it's normally not worth discussing. But when an entire thread - like this one - is purely about the semantics of the term "PvX" and you claim that PvX isn't really a thing for Ashes, and to just call it a PvP MMO, I will happily call you out for being factually wrong
So... the moment you have PvP that is anywhere close to the amount of PvP on an EQ/EQ2/WoW PvP-server that is PvP-centric.
Most PvPers will say that EQ/EQ2/WoW PvP servers are PvE with PvP poorly tacked on - almost as an after-thought.
Which it is. Because RPGs aren't really designed for PvP.
That is a releatively late addition to the genre, implemented by competitive video game fans (also because it's quicker and easier to test combat with real life Humans than programming mobs).
I specifically called it a PvP MMORPG, not a PvP MMO.
Specificity exists for a reason.
Steven does not yet have the credentials as an MMORPG developer to make up his own terminology. Money doesn't by the respect or experience that is needed to be able to do this. When we start seeing PvX MMORPG's as a catagory in the press (proper press, as far as proper press exists in the gaming sphere - not some random guy on YouTube), then Steven can start calling Ashes a PvX MMORPG.
Until then, he is just labeling his game as being some undefined thing.
If you want to say that Ashes is a PvX MMORPG because some guy with money said it was, and with quite literally no other reason at all to do so, then cool, I guess.
Edit to add; terms applied to games (not just PvP, most terms) absolutely are on a spectrum in relation to the genre of the game in question.
For example, as far as sport/driving games are concerned, Rocket Leauge is a PvP game. However, it has a solo mode which would make it not PvP if your definition were true.
As far as sport games go, however, Rocket Leauge is about as PvP as it gets - and so calling it a PvP game in the sports genre is absolutely appropriate.
Same with survival games.
When it comes to survival games, Rust is a PvP survival game. Sure, it has some non-PvP elements, but in a genre that includes games with no PvP at all (Raft, for example), and that requires non-PvP elements to even belong in the survival genre, calling it a PvP survival game is appropriate - even if calling it a PvP game may not be.
Same with MMORPG's. There are elements that are not PvP that are required to be an MMORPG. An MMORPG having those elements does not disqualify it from being called a PvP MMORPG.
Again, your definition would see there being no MMORPG's at all that can be labeled PvP.
Planetside is an MMO FPS - Competitive PvP tends to be fundamental for multiplayer First-Person Shooters.
Cooperative PvE is fundamental for RPGs - including multiplayer RPGs.
So... PvP-centric MMORPGs, like Lineage 2, ArcheAge and EvE tend to be comparitively niche.
MMORPGs that try to be "Play To Crush" tend to not last long. Because the vast majority of RPG players are PvE.
Again... which is why it's common for PvPers to complain that there are very few MMORPGs designed with good PvP. That is very true. And should be expected due to the genre.
We can expect Ashes to maintain a population comparable to Lineage II and/or EvE.
So, I think there's not much need to worry about Ashes being that successful - if it releases.
The definition of PvP game does not change based on genre? That's an odd perspective.
On the PvP/PvX/PvE spectrum - which type is EQ/EQ2 and WoW?
Freehold farms.
Are Freehold farms a 'PvX' activity? Since it is technically gathering, your definition of PvE probably defines this, but the question is simply, 'is it that farming is a PvP activity, or is it that farming is sometimes interrupted by a PvP activity?'
If we're discussing a PvX 'spectrum', this is the best baseline I can come up with for framing it. The fishing example, I hope is simply useful for pointing out to people why forced-PvP-averse players can be competitive but not interested in PvP games.
But if we're moving on to talking about PvX gaming, farming is the key point here, since unlike gathering points, farms don't move or randomize in the same way at all, yet have visual indicators of many things that can attract or trigger a relatively 'timed' PvP activity.
I think I've been ganked while picking crops in BDO more than I've been ganked doing basically anything else, in total.
The activity itself is pve. The process overall is pvx, with a varying threat level and economic pvp impact.
I definitely think that high value farms of high ranking guild farmers will be targets of enemy guild raids and/or just opportunists who know their stuff. I'd even like if those freeholds were tied to guild war goals and stuff, but it's hard to say if that's what Steven's going for with those, cause we don't know shit about wars.
(Yeah, "ganked" while picking flowers is usually what causes me to rage-quit PvP-Optional servers and move to PvE-Only servers.)
Freeholds/Farmsteads with crops would be easy targets. Yes.
Very true, but 'as requested', my goal here is to use it as a framing to discuss how PvX spectrums affect players.
You, for example, might actually be one of the biggest 'target audiences' for Freehold Harvest Defense, if implemented correctly, not so?
If you were in the mood for PvP, and your intent was to heal people, set traps, etc, while making sure the harvest was safely completed.
This is my current level of understanding of your wishes. It's non-consensual PvP in one sense, but it's also a thing one expects 'as part of trying to harvest crops'. Let's ignore the entire bulk of 'crop harvesting fiat protections' that save us all from praedial larceny for some reason.
In a very PvE game, you'd DEFINITELY be growing those crops in your own apartment (FFXI style). In a very PvP game, even if the crops could only be harvested by you, there would be squads waiting for your crops to reach maturity and patrolling at the safe edge of territory 'waiting for the harvest to begin' (MineCraft Worldsim servers).
I think anything between there counts as 'on a spectrum'.
" ~ PvE will build the World - but PvP will move the World ~ " - a Verra Deity known as Steven.
( he said it about as this. Dunno if this Line is 100% correct but that is not thaaat important. )
To be fair as someone who doesn't know the exact Numbers in Percents -> i would have nothing against PvE and PvP making up both about 50% of the whole Game.
People must just be willing to accept that not everything will either be PvP or PvE.
THAT's the Spirit !! >:-]
Don't worry. The worst that can happen to us is dying and having our Stuff stolen.
At least in Caravans.
Comparing to what fits my Wishes for playing the most - i shall not even have an Issue if i will be part of a huuuge Metropolis, or just being a lowly Vassal-Node Citizen that will serve my unrelenting Masters whetever i like it or not. (lol)
Sure being inside a huge Metropolis gives You the Feeling of Greatness and Importance. But a whole Node-System doesn't fully sustain itself, now does it ?
Will we be able to build our own, adorable little Empire ? Or will we struggle just to get by in the lowliest Forms of being Node Citizens ? You can safely bet the Ability to find like-minded Spirits for fellow Players will play the decisive Role.
Whetever these People want more PvE or PvP will hardly matter. What matters is only how much they are willing to put in an Effort ingame for Success.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
I like Sieges because they are scheduled far in advance.
I like Caravans because I can choose to Defend, Attack or - most importantly Ignore - depending on my mood.
So, yes, if my Freehold was always safe, there would be times I would be in the mood to defend other Freeholds.
If PvP is an expected part of trying to harvest crops - that is too PvP-centric for me and I will just play a different MMORPG where I don't have to constantly be thinking about PvP.
I would hope we're at a point -with UE5- where we could be growing crops on some form Open World Freehold/Farmstead instead of an (Instanced?) apartment.
Ok, that's a good starting point I think.
You're on the far PvE side, as we all know. If generally 'crop harvesting' had an expectation of PvP, that's too PvP centric for you even if you know when harvest will be.
I'm on the far PvP side, so for me, the only thing I care about in the 'crop harvesting requires PvP to happen' space, is that the opposing attacking side needs to commit something other than time to this effort. And I mean something beyond 'the risk of being attacked themselves while lurking around the Freehold'.
On a Minecraft worldsim style server, I would not even expect that, because MineCraft is full-loot and stealth requires you to remove all your defense gear, and the stealth itself is expensive.
One step 'back' from that, in Elite, you can't pick up someone's mining results by just destroying them, there are additional requirements (you can choose to do it different ways, but the point is that these ways have some defenses which go beyond just if you can win the fight, which evens it out somewhat).
And one step 'back' from that to a very easy theoretical (an extension of Throne and Liberty, conceptually), if your group 'owned an area', anyone trying to enter that area during the harvest time to kill or just steal the harvest would probably have an experience similar to a node Siege.
Also, you could incentivize other players to defend more easily, because the way in which the 'rewards' systems of that game work (or would naturally work in that case) there would be equal benefit to both sides, conceptually.
I also know people who would 'insist that their crops just go straight into Freehold Storage'. They might be ok with PvP to disrupt their harvest, but not with an added enemy incentive that they might get the crops too.
And at least one person who would 'insist that their entire Freehold plot be safe, and the enemy can only threaten them when they choose to transport those crops'. This is actually the spot where my personal preference 'gets off the train'. I get uncomfortable at this point of the spectrum, and personally don't want it to go any further. I don't mind 'guards', but 'guards' don't work well in tandem with the current corruption system, imo.
We could get guards that just 'autodefend you when you're attacked on the Freehold premises', but then we're back to incentives.
Auto-defending me is kind of irrelevant - I don't need protection - I need to be in PvE mode with PvP impossible. Effectively like New World.
For me, Sieges and Caravans are Meaningful Conflict that I'm on board for.
Risk v Reward is not something that I am at all interested in.
PvP harvesting seems to fall under Risk v Reward. Which is perfect for Steven's playstyle.
Wait, do you think Steven came up with PvX as a term, or was the first to use it about an MMORPG? It almost sounds like it. And PvX is not an undefined thing.. what are you on about?
I know I have seen it used back in the GW2 days, in 2012 or 13. I can't remember if the developers back then used it, but the gaming community certainly did.
And why do you think YOU are the authority to decide if a developer is allowed to call their game PvX?
I was thinking about a requirement for stolen gatherables to be "laundered" through an npc for a fee (value dependent on the resource) and some time.
And the "death" part coming from the thieves getting marked as reds for BHs by the victims (the BH being able to kill the "criminal" even after their purple flag goes away, hence the "green death" above). Say, the npc guard at the freehold has a function of "report a theft by the people who trespassed on the FH in the last 10m" or smth.
I'd still love if the criminals/reds dropped the stolen stuff first and always, and the BH returning that stuff to the victim gave more points to the BH's progress in their system, but there's obvious exploits with that, so that would have to be accounted for in some way.
Having a guard on the FH could cost an additional fee (or maybe the function itself costs smth), so the exploit would not be as beneficial overall as well.
Would smth like this be enough for you or do you think this is not as good of a deterrent?
I don't even need that much, and at the same time, this doesn't apply in the way I am referring to.
We're talking about the spectrum, and I keep referencing Elite.
In Elite you literally MUST give up some combat ability to even have the capacity to take the loot. Because the miner had to give up some combat capacity in order to hold the loot. In Ashes this would be equal, so let's ignore that.
A miner in Elite also needs to have a mining laser (one less slot for a real weapon) and a Refinery (one less internal slot for defense or whatever) and PROBABLY a Collector Limpet Controller. The pirate needs to have a Collector Limpet Controller and a Hatch Breaker Limpet Controller, or some very specific skills that are difficult to do in larger ships.
Elite is also 'more equalized' automatically in any PvX situation because the upper limit of capacity for a specific conflict is much lower. Basically, there is no 'being level 50 vs level 20' in the same way. Your 10,000 hours of playtime doesn't convert into having an invincible (by comparison) ship, or at least, it didn't before 'a certain subset of players' complained about it.
You know that I don't believe in Ashes' balancing for any of this yet. Ashes isn't even on a spectrum for me, it's just nonsensical. You can't stack stuff on top of Ashes' design (as of the Freehold change/clarification) and reach a point where I am satisfied. That shift marked a point where Ashes PvX stopped making sense to me, and no amount of band-aids are gonna fix it.
I'm basically saying, let's discuss other games that don't have the issue to begin with. Where 'the issue' is 'the current Corruption system'.
I'll echo @Nikr on this one.
I was never ganked in BDO while farming crops, but perhaps I quit BDO too early before that really became a thing.
For Ashes, with being CC immune as green, and hopefully a TTK of 30-60 seconds, it would have to be a group of gankers to be successful, unless the gankee is AFK or low level. 30 seconds should be plenty of time to run inside the house. I don't see it being worth it unless those crops are suuuuper rare and expensive. And if they are, only dumb people will pick them unprotected.
Ah right, it makes sense it carried over from GW to GW2. I only ever played GW2 really. I tried GW for a short while up to GW2 release.
Edit: So @Vaknar I think it's only fair to mention Guildwars 2 as a PvX MMORPG, but as a bad example of what PvX should be. Like in DAoC, that also had both the RvR in the open (but separate) part of the world, and instanced battlegrounds, both modes in GW2's WvW and the strutured pvp in the small instances are separate from the PvE areas. I really liked both games, but in terms of what I want the PvX philosophy to be, I think Eve Online is superior. And on paper so is Ashes.
Well, that would ofc depend on how good your crops are and how well you understood the farming? I have no data on that.
I have lots of data on 'which farm plots I got ganked at and which I didn't', and also 'which things I was growing'.
As you know, BDO has an extremely in-depth farming system.
I would never expect to be ganked farming near Heidel. I'd expect to be ganked farming near Mansha Forest. Massive climate difference and therefore yield, etc.
You gave the example of "both sides need particular tools to execute this activity". What if we had "stolen goods" bags in Ashes? And you needed high quality bags for high quality goods (I'm assuming here that majority of farm raids would happen against high quality stuff, though not exclusively of course).
And said bags could be acquired through the Highwayman system, which in turn requires successful caravan assaults and all that.
In other words, the gatherer would've put crazy time/effort/money into their farm (leveling profession, getting FH, getting seeds, etc), while the thief would be required to go through their own expenditures to be able to steal shit.
And then the stolen goods bag could be the thing that drops from the criminal and we've come full circle. And this would also put yet another cost on the thief side, cause they'd need to get another bag to repeat their activity.
I find it kinda useless to try and discuss games w/o the corruption system, cause, unless Steven removes it - Ashes simply won't be able to be like those games, as you yourself have said multiple times in the past.
I can't leave the corruption system 'in' because of what Nerror said, which might not be the same reason at all, actually.
But, I can definitely equate it based on what you said.
In the end though, it sounds more like 'trying to discuss other games on the PvX spectrum' just doesn't work, because, as you said, the Corruption system doesn't support those levels of PvX as it is now.
I can only add that in Elite, you cannot actually get the loot if your opponent's ship has been destroyed. Your goal is to steal, and stealing is absolutely not a related consequence to 'just winning the PvP'. It is that specific difference which allows Elite to reach its current spot on the PvX spectrum. There are nearly no current situations where shooting down another 'Green' player's ship has any real benefit to you other than to remove them as a threat.
Pirates are real pirates in Elite most of the time, not just 'murderers who get to take everything'.
Adding 'Stolen goods' bags and 'Black Markets'... I think I'd be okay with it if, by putting stuff in your Stolen Goods bag, you could somehow become permaflagged at LEAST to the person whose stuff you took, but even this won't match the PvX I'm talking about.
I'd say 'making Thieves bring special tools' is about as effective as Corruption, if we can't identify 'people with those tools' beforehand (for example in Elite, just attempting to attach the Hatch Breaker to a 'green' player gets a bounty and the police are on their way long before you even get anything).
Quick Google search of GW2 PvX takes me to:
What is "PvX"? : r/Guildwars2
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/v35oo/gw2_is_a_pvpbased_game_someone_explain_this_to_m
"i see this everywhere - literally. when someone mentions GW2, someone else always loves to interject with, 'oh, gw2 is a PvP-based game with PvE taking a backseat'".
"I find the people who try and tell me that GW2 is a 'PvP-centric' MMO usually follows up with 'and that's why I play WoW because it has so much better PvE'".
What Is "PvX"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/yrk0n/what_is_pvx/
"shorthand for player vs everything, so pve,wvw,and spvp also, to be clear, there are no official world designations. All worlds are the same. PvX guilds have a focus on all aspects of the game."
What Does PvX Mean?
Player versus anything. A PvX player is a player who enjoys doing both PvE and PvP. Similarly, a PvX guild is a guild which does both PvE and PvP.
I think this is where that PKCH system I proposed some time ago would work well. Receiving the bag from the Highwayman system could ping you for the system (just as it would a high Counter player), so BHs/Guards would be on the lookout for you asap.
But this is way too deep into "my Ashes", so that's a whole different discussion.
I think we'd just need Ashes-based data on how many FHs even end up in the hands of someone who WOULDN'T defend their farming at all times and then match that to any attacker willingness to even attempt robbing the farmers.
You've been tracking different data in TL. By how much does a region's activity rises when it turn into a pvp location? In other words, how willing are the players to pvp in a place where they weren't pvping before, in a current-times game.
We've all got different experiences from different periods of time, so I think this kinda data could be as close to what we might see in Ashes as possible (even if the situation itself is nowhere near 1-to-1).
People are very willing to join into the PvP area but they do not often actually PvP as a result.
This is because TL PvP is also non-affiliated.
No-inherent-factions PvP is good. No-affiliation PvP removes a lot of the levers that people have which incentivize or disincentivize PvP.
There's no reason to help someone else in TL Event PvP or even approach them because if you start to fight someone else hoping to get what they collected, you risk 'having a mage or Rogue sneak up and burst you both down while you're low and get 2x the loot'.
Basically, it works better at Conflict bosses such as the Cornelius link from earlier, than the 'PvE and maybe also PvP' events because the incentives are broken. Riftstone/Boonstone fights though, are very popular (these are territory control battles fought by guilds).
In other words, I can't fucking wait for even a few more crumbs of War details.
R~IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.
Since Freeholds are "open" in the Open World - People can just go there and steal your Crops, butcher your Animals and haul axx without anyone stopping them, right ?
I guess we can not just have a "magical Barrier" or so around the Freehold ? x'D That lets only People in you allow to come on the Estate ?
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
Yeah I guess that's a bit more 'Ashes Centric' way to put the spectrum, but I feel like it misses some of the nuance of the middle section of it.