[Megathread] Dual Shields and you

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Comments

  • Two-handed/dual wielding shields...

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  • Noaani wrote: »
    You may well note that the post you are citing here was the first reply in this thread. The OP of the thread did not propose any suggestion, they merely said that others had talked about it.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    As such, I didn't have anyone here to form a debate with, all that was present was the idea of duel wielding shields, which is a stupid idea.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Since at the time of that post there was no one advocating this stance posting in this thread, there was literally no one that I could have been attacking. There was literally nothing other than an idea, which I was clearly attacking.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Now, if you read the rest of the thread (and the other thread that - for no apparant reason hasn't been merged in to this one yet) after others posted their thoughts, you would see that discussion is indeed what followed.

    Yet you didn't comment on any of that discussion. You immediately called the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    You really shouldn't be so quick to jump to a holier than thou posture.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid. You really shouldn't be so quick to jump to a holier than thou posture.
    Noaani wrote: »
    I mean, feel free to appologize if you want, but maybe just pay more attention next time.

    You really shouldn't be so quick to jump to a holier than thou posture.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Edit - and as to whether I came in to this discussion with an opinion already formed - of course I did. This is not the first time this discussion has been had in relation to this game. Intrepid made comments on duel wielding shields three years ago.

    So yes, I have had this discussion, I have formed an opinion on it, and I will enter this topid with that opinion already formed. However, if someone is able to provide something compelling enough, of course I would reconsider my opinion on the matter - that is exactly how opinions should be.

    I simply think this would have been a much better way to comment to the OP. Admittedly it's much more wordy, but also much more respectful.
  • @Tragnar
    I'm not against the debate, or debates in general. I just believe we can have these debates in a more respectful way. If we want to change other players thoughts and ideas, lets present our counterarguments and not just call the ideas stupid. That's all I'm trying to say.

    Like the argument @Noaani had in another thread on the idea of a mage running around dual-wielding shields and freecasting. I think that's a great argument against dual-wielding shields. Most people who want to dual-wield shields want to do so as tanks. Rarely do people think of all the other classes.

    To quote the definition you presented on "stupid", I think seeing mages run around dual-wielding shields would be "annoying or irritating; troublesome". Mostly troublesome. Seems way too overpowered. Not to mention if dual-wielding shields ever became meta, how weird would it be to see everyone running around with shields? *cringe* I think if that ever happened, it would be terrible for the game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited September 1
    Shaladoor wrote: »
    Yet you didn't comment on any of that discussion. You immediately called the idea stupid.
    I was a part of that discussion. I called the idea stupid before that discussion had taken place - at least this time around.

    Calling an idea stupid isn't a "holier than thou" stance, especially in the context of an idea that at the time had no supporters.

    You can't be "holier than thou" when there is no one around to the that "thou".
  • LyiatLyiat Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    edited September 1
    Shaladoor wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    You may well note that the post you are citing here was the first reply in this thread. The OP of the thread did not propose any suggestion, they merely said that others had talked about it.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    As such, I didn't have anyone here to form a debate with, all that was present was the idea of duel wielding shields, which is a stupid idea.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Since at the time of that post there was no one advocating this stance posting in this thread, there was literally no one that I could have been attacking. There was literally nothing other than an idea, which I was clearly attacking.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Now, if you read the rest of the thread (and the other thread that - for no apparant reason hasn't been merged in to this one yet) after others posted their thoughts, you would see that discussion is indeed what followed.

    Yet you didn't comment on any of that discussion. You immediately called the idea stupid.
    Noaani wrote: »
    You really shouldn't be so quick to jump to a holier than thou posture.

    And your first response was to call the idea stupid. You really shouldn't be so quick to jump to a holier than thou posture.
    Noaani wrote: »
    I mean, feel free to appologize if you want, but maybe just pay more attention next time.

    You really shouldn't be so quick to jump to a holier than thou posture.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Edit - and as to whether I came in to this discussion with an opinion already formed - of course I did. This is not the first time this discussion has been had in relation to this game. Intrepid made comments on duel wielding shields three years ago.

    So yes, I have had this discussion, I have formed an opinion on it, and I will enter this topid with that opinion already formed. However, if someone is able to provide something compelling enough, of course I would reconsider my opinion on the matter - that is exactly how opinions should be.

    I simply think this would have been a much better way to comment to the OP. Admittedly it's much more wordy, but also much more respectful.

    Have we really gotten so thin-skinned that we can't suffer someone calling an idea stupid? Apologies, but neither I nor anyone else needs to respect any old idea someone chucks into a melee. The idea that every opinion is valid and is due equal consideration and respect is in and of itself stupid. It's not improper to attack an idea or denounce it.

    To the original topic - no. I think dual-wielding shields is just dense in a game aiming for some level of realism. A shield isn't a weapon and isn't intended to be used as a weapon, it compliments one. The main arguments about 'allowing dual-wielding shield' mostly cropped up after Dark Souls let you do it. In the end, Dark Souls is a very silly game when it comes to just what it allows you to do, such as wielding shields twice your size or swords three times as tall as you are. AoC has stated from the start that they're not going to allow immersion breaking massive weapons, so why would they go on to add immersion breaking options that no actual warrior would consider?

    This opinion also applies to people who want to wield a single shield with no weapon, and two-handed shields as another thread I saw on here. The ascetic is silly in the realm of medieval combat. Let that stuff stay in Dark Souls and Marvel Comics were it belongs.

    Edit: Another thing about dual-wielding shields in Dark Souls - it was not ever intended to be an effective choice. It's something people did as a *challenge*, intentionally hampering themselves to make the game harder, as Dark Souls players are want to do. Most of the people advocating for dual-wielding shields are advocating what is already an intentionally sub-optimal choice in a different game to make it into a viable choice here. It's a stupid idea.
  • The answer is simple:

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  • how does one upvote the dual shields post?
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  • poisonzpoisonz Member, Braver of Worlds
    GIVE ME DUAL SHIELDS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  • IzilIzil Member
    edited September 2
    During the Viking Age, wooden shields were fairly common. This is because wood is cheap and light, and you can carry so much weight on a longship.

    To over come the natural weakness if wood versus blade, the shield was sealed with a metal ring around the edge, and had a metal ball in the center on the front. They didn't cower behind these shields as they would have been chopped to splinters. Instead they would try to intercept incoming attacks and deflect them with the metal ball in the center.

    You could also smash a guy in the face with the metal edge.

    Wrong. Viking shields having metal rim around it is only prevalent in american fantasy and no archeological support. Vikings actually wanted enemy weapons to bite into and get stuck in their shields so they could have full control over the enemy etc.

    The only metal on their shields was in the middle in terms of protecting their hands and use techniques such as shieldbash.

    Im norwegian and learned tons about vikings please dont be that american or wherever ur from trying to lecture me about my my ppls history
  • TimeraiderTimeraider Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    I wanted to say... someone has been watching to much "I Don't Want to Get Hurt, so I'll Max Out My Defense"

    But only after that I saw your avatar and it only confirms it ;D
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    A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
  • Izilion wrote: »
    During the Viking Age, wooden shields were fairly common. This is because wood is cheap and light, and you can carry so much weight on a longship.

    To over come the natural weakness if wood versus blade, the shield was sealed with a metal ring around the edge, and had a metal ball in the center on the front. They didn't cower behind these shields as they would have been chopped to splinters. Instead they would try to intercept incoming attacks and deflect them with the metal ball in the center.

    You could also smash a guy in the face with the metal edge.

    Wrong. Viking shields having metal rim around it is only prevalent in american fantasy and no archeological support. Vikings actually wanted enemy weapons to bite into and get stuck in their shields so they could have full control over the enemy etc.

    The only metal on their shields was in the middle in terms of protecting their hands and use techniques such as shieldbash.

    Im norwegian and learned tons about vikings please dont be that american or wherever ur from trying to lecture me about my my ppls history

    To be fair; that poster was just way off in general - and doesn't seem to understand the function of a shield outside of an MMO. It wasn't anything specific to Scandinavian people that they were off on.

    A shield made out of just metal would either be too heavy to use or too thin to protect. Shields use wood as the major element, and most shields are designed to take control of an opponents weapon (as you have said) rather than to deflect an attack - the exception here being ranged attacks which many shields are curved to deflect. It was common for shields to be covered in cloth or leather, but metal was rarely used in shields - historically.

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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited September 2
    Filozer wrote: »
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    With the way this is strapped on, the stance that would be needed to bring these two halves together is just comical.

    Also, the metal center of that shield is supposed to offer additional protection to the wearers hand and arm. It acts almost like a crumple zone on a car where - should it take a direct hit - the metal can collapse, thus absorbing a portion of the blow and not transferring it directly to the wielders hand/arm - which would break immediately otherwise.

    If that is in the appropriate location to perform this function - if that is actually where it is strapped to the wielder - then each half of that shield would be horribly unbalanced. You would likely fall over if you start swinging it around to attempt to defend yourself with it.
  • Yokai TheaterYokai Theater Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    edited September 2
    they have already stated that dual-wielding shields will not be possible, now granted this is old info and not saying they can't change their minds but as far as I know it has not changed
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Filozer wrote: »
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    With the way this is strapped on, the stance that would be needed to bring these two halves together is just comical.

    Also, the metal center of that shield is supposed to offer additional protection to the wearers hand and arm. It acts almost like a crumple zone on a car where - should it take a direct hit - the metal can collapse, thus absorbing a portion of the blow and not transferring it directly to the wielders hand/arm - which would break immediately otherwise.

    If that is in the appropriate location to perform this function - if that is actually where it is strapped to the wielder - then each half of that shield would be horribly unbalanced. You would likely fall over if you start swinging it around to attempt to defend yourself with it.

    For starters, im using photoshop as a tool to demonstrate the weapon idea's, so any artistic or realistic points are not reflected because I dont have the assets or the ability to make them. So if it seems like the design is lacking its because those things are not there to begin with.

    You clearly dont like Dual sheilds and Shield weapons so maybe stop flooding the thread, and let others say their peice. Let the rest of us share our concepts without you talking down every idea because even though they might not put any of these ideas directly into the game, it might be a source of inspiration for something that does get put into the game that you might like.
  • From what I understand duealwielding shields is going to be allowed, however if you want to fight you will have the same effect as being naked - which I think some people will do.

    If you are not trying to make dualwielding shields a viable combat gameplay then I have nothing against that
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited September 2
    Filozer wrote: »
    For starters, im using photoshop as a tool to demonstrate the weapon idea's
    1, A shield is not a weapon.

    2, I provided you with feedback. Rather than telling me to go away, perhaps listen to the feedback and try to do better.

    3, This is a discussion forums, not a tell-the-people-that-disagree-with-you-to-go-away forum.

    4, Me thinking the idea is stupid does not (or should not) stop people from sharing ideas.

    5, If you want this to be even considered to be added to the game, you need collaboration. You need to convince at least some people that are against it to instead think the idea is ok. You won't get that if you tell people that don't like the idea to go away.
  • CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Just imagine walking around, trying to immerse yourself in the world, and seeing some guy in plate armor fighting a monster with 2 shields. Yea, so much for immersion. On the other hand, it would indeed be pretty funny to see some idiot doing a spin attack with two shields, like a bey-blade.

    So to be fair, I don't have a strong opinion on this topic. It won't matter if you're wielding two shields or two swords. When I face you, that's where your journey ends.

    Savage.
    "Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."

    I heard a bird ♫
  • I dislike that idea. No dual shields please.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    It's great that people are so passionate about this topic, but personal attacks and turning the thread into a pointless flame-fest is NOT. Consider this a warning to all, debate and discuss the topic by all means, but keep away from the petty insults. I will be monitoring this thread carefully and if the attacks continue, I will close it.
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  • @Wandering Mist

    I have read again the whole thread just to double check. There was 1 guy that did a personal attack and was immediately called out for that. All of the remaining posts are attacking the idea, either ridiculing it or straight up calling it stupid.

    Do you honestly intent to moderate this forum to safe space outlandish ideas and protect them from ridicule and labeling it being stupid?

    Ideas can be dangerous and I view the topic idea of this thread very dangerous to this game. Especially when it directly goes against the design ideas for this game that were clearly communicated before from either Steven or the dev team?
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    Tragnar wrote: »
    @Wandering Mist

    I have read again the whole thread just to double check. There was 1 guy that did a personal attack and was immediately called out for that. All of the remaining posts are attacking the idea, either ridiculing it or straight up calling it stupid.

    Do you honestly intent to moderate this forum to safe space outlandish ideas and protect them from ridicule and labeling it being stupid?

    Ideas can be dangerous and I view the topic idea of this thread very dangerous to this game. Especially when it directly goes against the design ideas for this game that were clearly communicated before from either Steven or the dev team?

    Well with that logic we might as well delete around 90% of the threads on this forum.....

    Right now I'm seeing a trend in this thread, which is focusing more on insulting each other than debating and discussing the topic. So to stop this from slipping down into a full flame-fest I put the message out that anymore like that will result in the thread being closed.

    That is all I have to say on the matter. Please go back to talking about dual shields and refrain from derailing the thread with insults and pointless flaming.
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  • @Wandering Mist

    Can you please tell me where is this thread filled with insults and pointless flaming?

    1 guy makes personal attack and now suddenly all of this thread is transformed from civilized criticism and ridicule to being insults and pointless flaming?

    Why can't the fanbase in here express their resentment against other player ideas?

    And nobody here wants this thread deleted. This whole thread is positive addition to the whole forum, because we can reject this idea.

    Rejecting and ridiculing ideas is a negative interaction, but if you want to ban this interaction and delete threads with it I would call that action being toxic, because this transforms the forum into a circle***k festival where everyone just cheers to any idea.

    I am glad that you want to protect people here from personal attacks - I support that, but ideas are not people.

    Unless of course you are required to stop people from disagreeing here.
  • Lol.....No. Pointless class.
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  • deadmanspricedeadmansprice Moderator, Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Tragnar wrote: »
    @Wandering Mist

    Can you please tell me where is this thread filled with insults and pointless flaming?

    1 guy makes personal attack and now suddenly all of this thread is transformed from civilized criticism and ridicule to being insults and pointless flaming?

    Why can't the fanbase in here express their resentment against other player ideas?

    And nobody here wants this thread deleted. This whole thread is positive addition to the whole forum, because we can reject this idea.

    Rejecting and ridiculing ideas is a negative interaction, but if you want to ban this interaction and delete threads with it I would call that action being toxic, because this transforms the forum into a circle***k festival where everyone just cheers to any idea.

    I am glad that you want to protect people here from personal attacks - I support that, but ideas are not people.

    Unless of course you are required to stop people from disagreeing here.

    Wandering Mist has stated that people here on this megathread are fine to have arguments and civil disagreements. You can have disagreements with anyone so long as it's related to dual shield topics. The personal attacks such as insults and pointless attacks are not allowed. It's a bit of a slippery slope and he's stopping it before it slides further from here on in.

    I've created this megathread so folks wanting to discuss dual shields can talk about it here (especially from Discord as well), and have civil arguments over it so long as that doesn't derail into personal attacks.
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  • MommieMommie Member
    edited September 2
    After all this drama, all I have to say :)

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  • MrLuckMrLuck Member
    edited September 3
    I honestly don't know why people hate dual wield shields so much. I know that Intrepid has already stated that it wont be part of the game. Let people have their fun talking about dual wielding shields. It's not hurting anyone, yet members of the community are attacking each other for no reason. Y'all are so adamant about a system in a game that won't be out for a year. You never know Intrepid might add dual wielding shields. I know alot of people on both sides are here just for the sake of drama, but damn y'all it's gotten a bit much with all this tearing apart each other. Everyone just needs to calm down. It's not up to us what goes into the final product of the game. It's the people who are dedicating a majority of their time to create something they are passionate about for current and future MMO players. Just take a step back and ask yourself is their a point in arguing about this?
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 3
    Why are you guys so desperate to argue and attack each other over something as pointless as dual wielding shields?

    There are far more important topics to discuss imo.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited September 3
    MrLuck wrote: »
    Let people have their fun talking about dual wielding shields.

    No one is stopping anyone from doing that.

    Someone posted a picture, I pointed out the issues with it from the perspective of someone against it, that person got all upset.

    Just because someone's feels are all hurt because someone on the internet gave them feedback, doesn't mean anyone is trying to stop them talking - if anything that is trying to help.

    People need to be a whole lot less precious.
  • bucklers with blades on the side. I posted a picture with text in one of the previous topics about this
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