DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's unnecessary for all playstyles. Which is why Steven's against including them. As is Square Enix for Final Fantasy.
Just because the hardcore progression playstyle wants the tool, doesn't mean the tool is necessary.
1
AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The devs determine what is legal through the ToS and what is necessary by how the content is designed. However the players still determine it is a necessary tool to improve their performance by using it. Just because Steven or Square Enix say the tool is unnecessary and shouldn't be used doesn't make it unnecessary.
It's unnecessary for all playstyles. Which is why Steven's against including them. As is Square Enix for Final Fantasy.
Just because the hardcore progression playstyle wants the tool, doesn't mean the tool is necessary.
As posted above - developers do not determine what players consider to be necessary.
You stating what top end players consider necessary is literally no different to me telling you what is and is not necessary for you to play a game.
I assume you do not want me to make that decision for you, so don't you attempt to make it for others.
0
AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
Further, Square Enix has stated that they are against using combat trackers because of the side effects, in that players could be excluded or removed from groups because of the data they parse. Which is why people talk about their use freely without getting banned so long as they don't use them to harass other players for poor performance. I don't see why a similar stance couldn't be taken in Ashes of Creation.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
No. Players don't decide what mechanics and systems are necessary. Players decide what mechanics and systems they would like the devs to implement.
Let's be honest. Do people even know what a Combat tracker is? Without a definition, you can't say you won't them or not. I don't think people know.
In Wow you have DBM, maybe people think that is it. You also have Weak Auras.
Let's be honest. Do people even know what a Combat tracker is? Without a definition, you can't say you won't them or not. I don't think people know.
In Wow you have DBM, maybe people think that is it. You also have Weak Auras.
A lot of people do think this - in fact, most of the people coming in to this thread and posting that they do not want trackers make the assumption that it is a DBM style thing we are talking about.
This is why I make a point to correct each such person.
Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution
in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons
in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated
and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.
If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.
However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)
Again...unnecessary details.
People know WTF killed them without relying on DPS meters.
How is more detail about anything unnecessary?? Someone mentioned crushing in WoW, that is a perfect example. Because if the tank take a crushing blow that means that the tank isn't wearing enough defence gear, meaning that the tank needs more tanking Gear (+defence or +block). Or maybe the boss did a parry/haste on the tank (two quick hits after each other) meaning that maybe someone other than the tank was Infront of the boss hitting it = higher chance of the boss parrying = double hits. Or maybe it was just a crit/bad luck (even though you can get crit immune as well). All of this is shown in combat trackers and you can dig up what really killed you and fix it in just a minute. Information is key.
Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution
in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons
in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated
and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.
If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.
However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)
No that's combat assistance addons (WA or DBM) and not combat trackers
Let's be honest. Do people even know what a Combat tracker is? Without a definition, you can't say you won't them or not. I don't think people know.
In Wow you have DBM, maybe people think that is it. You also have Weak Auras.
DBM and WA are combat assistance addons, warcraft logs is a type combat tracker.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution
Is not a solution to what?
The hardcore PvP folk want PvP without Corruption. SOme of them want full loot.
The PvE-only folk want separate PvE-Only servers.
The RP folk want separate RP servers.
Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution
in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons
in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated
and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.
If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.
However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)
No that's combat assistance addons (WA or DBM) and not combat trackers
how is your reply in any way relevant? if you didnt stop at the second sentence then you'd realise it was just to illustrate a point about meters that in wow it isnt even enough to have a meter, because you actually need assist addons
Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution
in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons
in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated
and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.
If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.
However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)
No that's combat assistance addons (WA or DBM) and not combat trackers
how is your reply in any way relevant? if you didnt stop at the second sentence then you'd realise it was just to illustrate a point about meters that in wow it isnt even enough to have a meter, because you actually need assist addons
Sorry maybe you were responding to someone that ni missed in this long thread (haven't really read everything these last pages) but what relevance is your comment to DPS meter or combat trackers?
Again maybe you where responding to something that commented on gameplay and mechanics, then I'm sorry
Aaannndd you did say combat trackers, that is way i responded:)
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Again...unnecessary details.
People know WTF killed them without relying on DPS meters.
How is more detail about anything unnecessary?? Someone mentioned crushing in WoW, that is a perfect example. Because if the tank take a crushing blow that means that the tank isn't wearing enough defence gear, meaning that the tank needs more tanking Gear (+defence or +block). Or maybe the boss did a parry/haste on the tank (two quick hits after each other) meaning that maybe someone other than the tank was Infront of the boss hitting it = higher chance of the boss parrying = double hits. Or maybe it was just a crit/bad luck (even though you can get crit immune as well). All of this is shown in combat trackers and you can dig up what really killed you and fix it in just a minute. Information is key.
More detail is pretty much the epitome of unnecessary.
You don't need a DPS meter to tell you that a Tank needs more defense gear. You might want to use a DPS meter to give you numbers to help you try to efficiently calculate a minimum number of stats for the gear.
Although, who says that the added defense needs to come from gear? The added defense could come from Passive Skills or augments. And sufficient augments could come from synergizing with others in your group.
Steven doesn't want people looking at a DPS meter to use numerical values as a solution to solving challenges. That's why he doesn't even want numerical values on Health Bars.
Steven wants people to think, "Oh! Maybe we should get our Shadow Guardian and Spellstone to support our Guardian." Soul Weaver and Shadow Disciple might also help with that.
You don't need a calculator to compute math.
You might want one.
You don't need a DPS meter to notice two quick hits after each other.
You also don't need a DPS meter to understand being hit by a Crit.
In Ashes, we won't need DPS meters to defeat challenges.
Steven doesn't want you to just "fix it in a minute". For a variety of reasons.
It's the "fix it in a minute" mentality that leads to toxic behavior.
Again...unnecessary details.
People know WTF killed them without relying on DPS meters.
How is more detail about anything unnecessary?? Someone mentioned crushing in WoW, that is a perfect example. Because if the tank take a crushing blow that means that the tank isn't wearing enough defence gear, meaning that the tank needs more tanking Gear (+defence or +block). Or maybe the boss did a parry/haste on the tank (two quick hits after each other) meaning that maybe someone other than the tank was Infront of the boss hitting it = higher chance of the boss parrying = double hits. Or maybe it was just a crit/bad luck (even though you can get crit immune as well). All of this is shown in combat trackers and you can dig up what really killed you and fix it in just a minute. Information is key.
More detail is pretty much the epitome of unnecessary.
You don't need a DPS meter to tell you that a Tank needs more defense gear. You might want to use a DPS meter to give you numbers to help you try to efficiently calculate a minimum number of stats for the gear.
Although, who says that the added defense needs to come from gear? The added defense could come from Passive Skills or augments. And sufficient augments could come from synergizing with others in your group.
Steven doesn't want people looking at a DPS meter to use numerical values as a solution to solving challenges. That's why he doesn't even want numerical values on Health Bars.
Steven wants people to think, "Oh! Maybe we should get our Shadow Guardian and Spellstone to support our Guardian." Soul Weaver and Shadow Disciple might also help with that.
You don't need a calculator to compute math.
You might want one.
You don't need a DPS meter to notice two quick hits after each other.
You also don't need a DPS meter to understand being hit by a Crit.
In Ashes, we won't need DPS meters to defeat challenges.
Steven doesn't want you to just "fix it in a minute". For a variety of reasons.
It's the "fix it in a minute" mentality that leads to toxic behavior.
You say you don't need a DPS meter to tell if the tank needs more defence gear? But what type of defence gear he/she will need, you won't know unless you know what actually killed him/he, that is what I'm trying to say. Knowing what exactly kill you will determine how you optimize your gear. Was it a crit , then you may need gear to make crits less effective (resilience in wow for example), or was it a crushing blow, then you need more block value, was it a parry haste, then you need to look at the position of the boss and the raid. And as you say, getting stats from passives or buffes are a great example to make small changes. Some races/classes may have curtain buffs/abilities to make that little difference in defence value that you need.
Another good example where knowing what exactly killed you or another person is if the boss have some mechanic that the tank may need to use a CD like spell reflect or shield block. You as a healer, saw that the boss did a spell ability and the second after the tank died. You say to the tank, "you need to use spell reflect", and the ta k respond "i did use spell reflect but he melee hit me or something". How can you know if he is telling the truth or a lie? You can't. And trust me, people lie their asses kg if they make a mistake.
And btw, you do need a calculator to noticed to quick hits. Yesterday our tank took three it's in 0.7 second, try and notice that without a combat tracker.
You do need a combat tracker to notice a crit, because two hits, a crushing blow and a crit can technically do the same about of damage with in a second.
The fix in a minute mentally is to fix small problems like being under crit cap, being under crushing cap, being under avoidance cap. These small mistakes can take up hours if you don't know the cause of a death. I'm not talking about learning a boss mechanic in minutes, that will take time even if we have a combat tracker. My guild didn't kill lady vashj until a couple of weeks in phase 2 of wow tbc classic, even though we used combat trackers
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How will a Tank know what defense gear they wish to use reminds me of my Mom asking how my infant niece will learn to walk without shoes.
You don't need a combat tracker to notice a crit. Especially not when there are are visual FX for crits.
Small mistakes may add up to hours. Learning how to compensate. That's OK.
Your guild will likely have to adjust their expectations.
Same as folk who want a separate RP server.
Same as folk who want a separate PvE-Only server.
You don't need a combat tracker to notice a crit. Especially not when there are are visual FX for crits.
In a top end raid, a tank can be taking 5 or 6 hits per second - and each can be a different damage type.
VFX aren't really your friend in that situation. Data is.
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ScootsMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
Haven't been here in a while, but just to add yet another 2 cents on this topic. I'm big on data. The more data, the better. Every game that has allowed some sort of dps/healing meter has helped me play my role better. Has helped me tweak a rotation. Has helped me decide on a build. Has helped me decide on the type of gear I want/need. The augments I want/need. No bones about it, I'm a fan of having more data.
I would argue that it doesn't make the game easier, it only gives the game another dimension. Personally, I like as many dimensions as I can get with a game.
I think the guilds that become toxic due to min/maxing with meters, would STILL be toxic without. Some guilds will STILL only allow top players in their raid groups. They'll still know who isn't "pulling their weight" in a raid. They'll figure it out. At the end of the day, jerks will still be jerks.
If I'm in a guild and ask for help getting better...and I don't receive that help...and don't get to participate in more advanced content because I never received the help getting better...that group isn't for me and I move on to the next guild. That's going to be the case with or without meters. IMO
Everyone saying DPS meters are toxic is just objectively wrong. Ignoring the obvious fact you can just join a different guild or group that doesn't care about that stuff (if you find it difficult to do so, that's because you're in the minority, which tells you all you need to know about how popular your view really is), people will find a way to measure performance and they will be jerks about it.
DPS meters? Immediate feedback about performance, and players get kicked for being bad.
No DPS meters? ACT and analyzing combat logs outside the game, kicking people based on that.
No ACT or combat logging of any kind? Spreadsheets using formulas derived from tooltips, kicking people based on builds that are proven to be mathematically superior.
No way to inspect other players? Request screenshare on Discord to show build, kicking people who refuse to do so or have bad builds.
No tooltips on abilities to derive formulas from? Health bars.
No health bars? Recording time to kill on individual mobs.
The further you go to restrict players, the less accurate the data becomes and the more unreasonable kicking people is, but rather than stopping the behavior, all you've done is drive away the people who care about their team's performance and made it more difficult for people to determine their own performance. You will drive WAY more people away trying to hide that data than would be driven away by DPS meters.
Given how much PvP is anticipated in AoC, a well designed DPS meter, along with other info, will almost be mandatory to eliminate so many questions on why you just got trounced. Most people don't care about the exact numbers they generate, just that they beat the mob or survived a PvP encounter (1v1 or 1vX).
The whole PvX thing will probably generate a lot of interest in knowing how much potential you have if jumped or are about to enter a situation. I've never numbered-crunched but I'm beginning to think I should be aware of weaknesses in my build to be addressed so I can enjoy the game with some surety of success.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Might not be a weakness in build. More likely it's a weakness in how well you synergize the abilities of your group.
isn't exactly this the goal of anti meter people? to obfuscate weaknesses so you can't find them through data, but only through the epiphany of "being" a superior player?
isn't exactly this the goal of anti meter people? to obfuscate weaknesses so you can't find them through data, but only through the epiphany of "being" a superior player?
It may well be, but I honestly have no idea what their goal is. I've still yet to see a valid reason to be against all combat trackers.
isn't exactly this the goal of anti meter people? to obfuscate weaknesses so you can't find them through data, but only through the epiphany of "being" a superior player?
It may well be, but I honestly have no idea what their goal is. I've still yet to see a valid reason to be against all combat trackers.
You have never, not a single time, gone back in your arguments. I doubt anyone can change your mind on ANY subject anyway.
isn't exactly this the goal of anti meter people? to obfuscate weaknesses so you can't find them through data, but only through the epiphany of "being" a superior player?
It may well be, but I honestly have no idea what their goal is. I've still yet to see a valid reason to be against all combat trackers.
You have never, not a single time, gone back in your arguments. I doubt anyone can change your mind on ANY subject anyway.
That kinda happens when you arrive at a conclusion through logic and reasoning with real data, but given enough time of brainwashing someone and even they will start to believe that earth is flat
isn't exactly this the goal of anti meter people? to obfuscate weaknesses so you can't find them through data, but only through the epiphany of "being" a superior player?
It may well be, but I honestly have no idea what their goal is. I've still yet to see a valid reason to be against all combat trackers.
You have never, not a single time, gone back in your arguments. I doubt anyone can change your mind on ANY subject anyway.
Actually, it has happened a few times on these forums.
One that comes to mind - and may be easy to find - is that I originally wanted the name "tank" changed. I was convinced that it doesn't matter at all, and now I don't care if it is changed, and think Intrepid have better things to spend their time on (and I was able to have bit of fun on that thread after changing my mind).
However, as eluded to above, this is a subjective thing. Combat tracker usefulness is objective, not subjective. Players using combat trackers make games better, this is a fact.
Not only have I used them to make a number of games I have played better, but even Margret has unwittingly pointed out how much better player feedback is when the players in question have access to combat trackers.
If you want to convince me of something subjective, have at it. I don't tend to have strong opinions one way or the other on subjective things.
If you want to change my opinion on something objective, however, you had better bring more objective fact to that discussion than I do - something no one in this thread (Steven included) has managed to do.
1
mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class.
DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build.
By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy.
Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it.
Comments
Just because the hardcore progression playstyle wants the tool, doesn't mean the tool is necessary.
As posted above - developers do not determine what players consider to be necessary.
You stating what top end players consider necessary is literally no different to me telling you what is and is not necessary for you to play a game.
I assume you do not want me to make that decision for you, so don't you attempt to make it for others.
Ashes already has a similar stance, AFAIK.
We aren't talking about systems or mechanics. We are talking about tools.
They are different things.
In Wow you have DBM, maybe people think that is it. You also have Weak Auras.
A lot of people do think this - in fact, most of the people coming in to this thread and posting that they do not want trackers make the assumption that it is a DBM style thing we are talking about.
This is why I make a point to correct each such person.
in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons
in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated
and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.
If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.
However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)
― Plato
How is more detail about anything unnecessary?? Someone mentioned crushing in WoW, that is a perfect example. Because if the tank take a crushing blow that means that the tank isn't wearing enough defence gear, meaning that the tank needs more tanking Gear (+defence or +block). Or maybe the boss did a parry/haste on the tank (two quick hits after each other) meaning that maybe someone other than the tank was Infront of the boss hitting it = higher chance of the boss parrying = double hits. Or maybe it was just a crit/bad luck (even though you can get crit immune as well). All of this is shown in combat trackers and you can dig up what really killed you and fix it in just a minute. Information is key.
No that's combat assistance addons (WA or DBM) and not combat trackers
DBM and WA are combat assistance addons, warcraft logs is a type combat tracker.
The hardcore PvP folk want PvP without Corruption. SOme of them want full loot.
The PvE-only folk want separate PvE-Only servers.
The RP folk want separate RP servers.
You can't always get what you want.
how is your reply in any way relevant? if you didnt stop at the second sentence then you'd realise it was just to illustrate a point about meters that in wow it isnt even enough to have a meter, because you actually need assist addons
― Plato
Sorry maybe you were responding to someone that ni missed in this long thread (haven't really read everything these last pages) but what relevance is your comment to DPS meter or combat trackers?
Again maybe you where responding to something that commented on gameplay and mechanics, then I'm sorry
Aaannndd you did say combat trackers, that is way i responded:)
You don't need a DPS meter to tell you that a Tank needs more defense gear. You might want to use a DPS meter to give you numbers to help you try to efficiently calculate a minimum number of stats for the gear.
Although, who says that the added defense needs to come from gear? The added defense could come from Passive Skills or augments. And sufficient augments could come from synergizing with others in your group.
Steven doesn't want people looking at a DPS meter to use numerical values as a solution to solving challenges. That's why he doesn't even want numerical values on Health Bars.
Steven wants people to think, "Oh! Maybe we should get our Shadow Guardian and Spellstone to support our Guardian." Soul Weaver and Shadow Disciple might also help with that.
You don't need a calculator to compute math.
You might want one.
You don't need a DPS meter to notice two quick hits after each other.
You also don't need a DPS meter to understand being hit by a Crit.
In Ashes, we won't need DPS meters to defeat challenges.
Steven doesn't want you to just "fix it in a minute". For a variety of reasons.
It's the "fix it in a minute" mentality that leads to toxic behavior.
Another good example where knowing what exactly killed you or another person is if the boss have some mechanic that the tank may need to use a CD like spell reflect or shield block. You as a healer, saw that the boss did a spell ability and the second after the tank died. You say to the tank, "you need to use spell reflect", and the ta k respond "i did use spell reflect but he melee hit me or something". How can you know if he is telling the truth or a lie? You can't. And trust me, people lie their asses kg if they make a mistake.
And btw, you do need a calculator to noticed to quick hits. Yesterday our tank took three it's in 0.7 second, try and notice that without a combat tracker.
You do need a combat tracker to notice a crit, because two hits, a crushing blow and a crit can technically do the same about of damage with in a second.
The fix in a minute mentally is to fix small problems like being under crit cap, being under crushing cap, being under avoidance cap. These small mistakes can take up hours if you don't know the cause of a death. I'm not talking about learning a boss mechanic in minutes, that will take time even if we have a combat tracker. My guild didn't kill lady vashj until a couple of weeks in phase 2 of wow tbc classic, even though we used combat trackers
You don't need a combat tracker to notice a crit. Especially not when there are are visual FX for crits.
Small mistakes may add up to hours. Learning how to compensate. That's OK.
Your guild will likely have to adjust their expectations.
Same as folk who want a separate RP server.
Same as folk who want a separate PvE-Only server.
VFX aren't really your friend in that situation. Data is.
I would argue that it doesn't make the game easier, it only gives the game another dimension. Personally, I like as many dimensions as I can get with a game.
I think the guilds that become toxic due to min/maxing with meters, would STILL be toxic without. Some guilds will STILL only allow top players in their raid groups. They'll still know who isn't "pulling their weight" in a raid. They'll figure it out. At the end of the day, jerks will still be jerks.
If I'm in a guild and ask for help getting better...and I don't receive that help...and don't get to participate in more advanced content because I never received the help getting better...that group isn't for me and I move on to the next guild. That's going to be the case with or without meters. IMO
DPS meters? Immediate feedback about performance, and players get kicked for being bad.
No DPS meters? ACT and analyzing combat logs outside the game, kicking people based on that.
No ACT or combat logging of any kind? Spreadsheets using formulas derived from tooltips, kicking people based on builds that are proven to be mathematically superior.
No way to inspect other players? Request screenshare on Discord to show build, kicking people who refuse to do so or have bad builds.
No tooltips on abilities to derive formulas from? Health bars.
No health bars? Recording time to kill on individual mobs.
The further you go to restrict players, the less accurate the data becomes and the more unreasonable kicking people is, but rather than stopping the behavior, all you've done is drive away the people who care about their team's performance and made it more difficult for people to determine their own performance. You will drive WAY more people away trying to hide that data than would be driven away by DPS meters.
The whole PvX thing will probably generate a lot of interest in knowing how much potential you have if jumped or are about to enter a situation. I've never numbered-crunched but I'm beginning to think I should be aware of weaknesses in my build to be addressed so I can enjoy the game with some surety of success.
May well be.
A combat tracker will assist you with that, as well.
― Plato
It may well be, but I honestly have no idea what their goal is. I've still yet to see a valid reason to be against all combat trackers.
You have never, not a single time, gone back in your arguments. I doubt anyone can change your mind on ANY subject anyway.
That kinda happens when you arrive at a conclusion through logic and reasoning with real data, but given enough time of brainwashing someone and even they will start to believe that earth is flat
― Plato
Actually, it has happened a few times on these forums.
One that comes to mind - and may be easy to find - is that I originally wanted the name "tank" changed. I was convinced that it doesn't matter at all, and now I don't care if it is changed, and think Intrepid have better things to spend their time on (and I was able to have bit of fun on that thread after changing my mind).
However, as eluded to above, this is a subjective thing. Combat tracker usefulness is objective, not subjective. Players using combat trackers make games better, this is a fact.
Not only have I used them to make a number of games I have played better, but even Margret has unwittingly pointed out how much better player feedback is when the players in question have access to combat trackers.
If you want to convince me of something subjective, have at it. I don't tend to have strong opinions one way or the other on subjective things.
If you want to change my opinion on something objective, however, you had better bring more objective fact to that discussion than I do - something no one in this thread (Steven included) has managed to do.
I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class.
DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build.
By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy.
Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it.