It's all about the responsiveness of input and the fluidity of the combat. Any sort of animation lock sucks in my book. Or abilities that aren't movement abilities moving my character. If you want fancy animations, that's perfectly fine, but add it to cast time. And let me cancel it whenever. Combat is SO important to get right, as, like it or not, that's essentially what you'll be doing most of the time. And in combat the battlefield shifts constantly, the choice of hardcasting a spell for example may seem right to do one moment and the next you have to dodge a skillshot, so the ability to react instantly is important.
I can't wait to test these things out in Alpha 2. Provided I can even pass the anti-cheat hurdle.
I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.
Guess I'll just ask you anyway.
If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?
This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
Sorry for letting you down.
There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.
This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.
In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.
By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?
0
mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.
Guess I'll just ask you anyway.
If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?
This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
Sorry for letting you down.
There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.
This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.
In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.
By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?
If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.
Im just going to post the actual definition explanation post this is getting out of hand with these weird comparisons that tab can do things action can when they are different on a fundamental level.
In WoW or classic tab-targeting you press a button to deal damage. The client checks your range to the targeted enemy and if in range all requirements are met and damage is dealt; the character animation is just a visual feedback that something happens -- it's not necessary for a hit. Also, the animation will be played after the hit is calculated. Movement has no affect besides breaking line of sight or moving out of the "action circle" of the ability.
In Tera or action combat pressing a button will also start an animation which deal damage iff there is a mob in the target area. But the hitboxes and the animation of the skills are much more versatile than in mixed combat, e.g. the size of the weapons and the swing animations can be used as visual clue if an attack connects or not -- steps to the side decide a hit or miss. A big difference to tab-targeting and mixed combat is, that in action combat the character is locked in an animation while attacking, i.e. you can't strafe while swinging. But because attacks are coupled with movement (e.g. jumping forward in a lunge-attack) different attacks can be used to dodge enemy hits. As a consequence, in action combat fixed skill-rotations don't exist -- skill usage depends on where the player wants to move.
Im just going to post the actual definition explanation post this is getting out of hand with these weird comparisons that tab can do things action can when they are different on a fundamental level.
In WoW or classic tab-targeting you press a button to deal damage. The client checks your range to the targeted enemy and if in range all requirements are met and damage is dealt; the character animation is just a visual feedback that something happens -- it's not necessary for a hit. Also, the animation will be played after the hit is calculated. Movement has no affect besides breaking line of sight or moving out of the "action circle" of the ability.
In Tera or action combat pressing a button will also start an animation which deal damage iff there is a mob in the target area. But the hitboxes and the animation of the skills are much more versatile than in mixed combat, e.g. the size of the weapons and the swing animations can be used as visual clue if an attack connects or not -- steps to the side decide a hit or miss. A big difference to tab-targeting and mixed combat is, that in action combat the character is locked in an animation while attacking, i.e. you can't strafe while swinging. But because attacks are coupled with movement (e.g. jumping forward in a lunge-attack) different attacks can be used to dodge enemy hits. As a consequence, in action combat fixed skill-rotations don't exist -- skill usage depends on where the player wants to move.
And as I've demonstrated through videos before, L2 was animation-based and not gcd-based, so you were also locked in the animation while attacking and people could "dodge" your attack mid cast. The "dodge" action was different to an action game's, but the concept was the same.
If your camera moves towards your target and you attack it is not animation based. The dodge concept needs to be the same as action games, it doesn't matter how much you twist it. If a player attacks and you can walk backwards and dodge the sword with only WASD in the middle of a field with no objects to obstruct you and they can miss because their sword did not hit you then it would be action based. So if you can walk in a circle around someone and if they are using skills on you and because of how you are moving around them they miss then I would say clearly it has some form of action combat in it between that and you having to control the camera yourself and look in their direction.
If your camera moves towards your target and you attack it is not animation based. The dodge concept needs to be the same as action games, it doesn't matter how much you twist it. If a player attacks and you can walk backwards and dodge the sword with only WASD in the middle of a field with no objects to obstruct you and they can miss because their sword did not hit you then it would be action based. So if you can walk in a circle around someone and if they are using skills on you and because of how you are moving around them they miss then I would say clearly it has some form of action combat in it between that and you having to control the camera yourself and look in their direction.
In your quote about wow it literally says "animation is not important", but that is not the case in L2 because the damage is dealt at the end of the skill animation. And as was already shown before, L2 had a snap range on skills, so you could in fact prevent someone from hitting you by just moving out of the way. Now, L2's movement wasn't as fast as most action mmos and it didn't have all the iframe jumping around so it was difficult (almost impossible in most cases) to avoid hits by just moving, but it was still ingrained into the client of the game.
And as I've stated before, my battlefield awareness had to be as high as in action games, because everything was moving fast and I had to react to those changes. I might not have been using the same "dodge left then dodge right" rotations in those reactions, but the reactions themselves were still present. But of course you'll dismiss this too because it's not literally the exact same button press as in action games, even if the player was still constantly monitoring their enemies and constantly reacting to their actions and had to move correctly on the battlefield - just as an action mmo player would have to do.
Just because its calculated before animation, doesn't mean you won't see the number being delayed and shown after, they will want it to be as close to when the sword hits you as possible.
Regardless of that, which at this point I don't care what L2 is considered, if people consider themselves as action mmo players. Then we should all be pushing for more action combat and not tab target. And most people will be using action combat since they have all the twitch skills already downpat clearly since they are use to players dodging their skills and aiming their abilities
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
No. People should be pushing for what they like to play.
In this case, it's mostly moot because Ashes will have both Tab Target and Action Combat.
We'll have to play to see which is more popular in Ashes.
But with fewer views so you already know that this thread has all the regulars just arguing with each other, while the main feedback thread is just purely newer/non-regular people posting a comment or 2.
I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.
Guess I'll just ask you anyway.
If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?
This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
Sorry for letting you down.
There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.
This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.
In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.
By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?
If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.
If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you.
If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.
Would that make EQ2 melee combat conditional action?
Im just going to post the actual definition explanation post this is getting out of hand with these weird comparisons that tab can do things action can when they are different on a fundamental level.
In WoW or classic tab-targeting you press a button to deal damage. The client checks your range to the targeted enemy and if in range all requirements are met and damage is dealt; the character animation is just a visual feedback that something happens -- it's not necessary for a hit. Also, the animation will be played after the hit is calculated. Movement has no affect besides breaking line of sight or moving out of the "action circle" of the ability.
In Tera or action combat pressing a button will also start an animation which deal damage iff there is a mob in the target area. But the hitboxes and the animation of the skills are much more versatile than in mixed combat, e.g. the size of the weapons and the swing animations can be used as visual clue if an attack connects or not -- steps to the side decide a hit or miss. A big difference to tab-targeting and mixed combat is, that in action combat the character is locked in an animation while attacking, i.e. you can't strafe while swinging. But because attacks are coupled with movement (e.g. jumping forward in a lunge-attack) different attacks can be used to dodge enemy hits. As a consequence, in action combat fixed skill-rotations don't exist -- skill usage depends on where the player wants to move.
There are some factual inaccuracies in the above.
Many tab games dont calculate damage and then display the animation, as you say. This is because (especially in PvP) the animation of an attack is used as a queue to counter it, so at least in some games the damage dealt (or even if the hit connects) isnt calculated until the animation is finished.
Also, the animation in action combat is as equally unnecessary for the system to function. The animation itself is not usually used to measure a hit or miss - this calculation is usually done independently, and then the animators ensure that the animation simply fills in the area the attack checked.
Action combat would work just fine (from a mechanic standpoint) if there were no animations, the game just checked the hit area for any hit boxes, and then moved the character to the location that the attack moved them to.
It would be shit to watch, and probably a bit harder to play (no visual queue as to attack areas), but it would be mechanically the same.
Note that neither of the above are how all tab or all action combat work, different games are, well different. Trying to reduce either one down to "this is what it is" is futile.
I was wondering who will ask
I almost missed your question.
This forum has an unusual habit of saving half prepared posts into the cloud.
If I delete them, they remain saved and I risk posting them without willing to, as I did once already.
So I select all and replace the text with a letter which happens to be H.
And of course I do not notice it when I post next time.
Ah, so the same problem I have with this forum's draft saving system
1
mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.
Guess I'll just ask you anyway.
If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?
This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
Sorry for letting you down.
There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.
This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.
In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.
By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?
If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.
If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you.
If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.
Would that make EQ2 melee combat conditional action?
No, if the skill is going to your target, then it's a tab skill. Just because it's visually similar doesn't mean they are functionally the same.
If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you. If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.
This ^ can also be how a hybrid hard lock could work. If I have Willowy_Elf_A target-locked, and he runs away (beyond my bow's range) and Willowy_Elf_B is right in front of my reticle. One possible outcome is that I get an 'out of range' message for Willowy_Elf_A.
Another possible outcome is that as soon as Willowy_Elf_A moves out of range it clears my locked target so my reticle (soft target) becomes the active target.
I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.
Guess I'll just ask you anyway.
If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?
This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
Sorry for letting you down.
There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.
This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.
In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.
By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?
If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.
If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you.
If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.
Would that make EQ2 melee combat conditional action?
No, if the skill is going to your target, then it's a tab skill. Just because it's visually similar doesn't mean they are functionally the same.
What are you trying to argue here?
But you specifically said
There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.
But there are times in EQ2 where you do not need a target in order to attack.
If you dont need to perform that step of acquiring a target of your intended target is in range of a melee attack, is it still tab target?
Consider this along with casters having someone abilities that are placed rather than cast on your target, and surely the game must now be considered hybrid combat...
Technically if the ability auto selects the nearest target as a tab, it would technically still fall under a tab target ability in order to function properly regardless of if you had the target selected first or second after performing the the ability in this context. because not only is auto selecting the target for you but it is also implying that is where the ability tracking is heading towards.
By performing an action that auto-selects the nearest target, it still functions relatively more as a tab-target ability.
In a more true sense of action combat, it comes down to performing an ability without the requirement for a targeting system, range limitations for said function and even tracking limitations based on ability type.
As example using melee:
do you have a target to perform the action (regardless of pre-target or auto-target after)
are they within range to perform the action?
does tracking affect the action?
Even in action combat games there are targeting system so players can cycle through target for situational scenario's if the players wish to use them. Soulsbourne games have it, game like Legend of Zelda have it as well. But a main difference is, you can perform those abilities regardless of using the targeting-locking system regardless.
There are spells cast Elden ring where you perform them and they do their thing. When it comes to melee, the lock doesn't always allow you to hit your target, it aids in a camera and character focal point interaction. It's not guaranteed to hit the target regardless of positioning like tab targeting generally is.
For ashes to have the reticle/crosshair lock-aiming-tracking system for the Tab-target based on ability type is a great choice but as I have said before, there could be limitations to its functionality and range to ensure it doesn't become an over powered mechanic vs those who free-aim and use free-aim abilities for an MMORPG.
As a side note thinking about Elden ring, those star abilities are pretty cool how they are cast and shower projectiles with tracking even if they weren't that viable in ng+7
Comments
I can't wait to test these things out in Alpha 2. Provided I can even pass the anti-cheat hurdle.
In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.
By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?
If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.
It's as if different games work differently
And as I've stated before, my battlefield awareness had to be as high as in action games, because everything was moving fast and I had to react to those changes. I might not have been using the same "dodge left then dodge right" rotations in those reactions, but the reactions themselves were still present. But of course you'll dismiss this too because it's not literally the exact same button press as in action games, even if the player was still constantly monitoring their enemies and constantly reacting to their actions and had to move correctly on the battlefield - just as an action mmo player would have to do.
Regardless of that, which at this point I don't care what L2 is considered, if people consider themselves as action mmo players. Then we should all be pushing for more action combat and not tab target. And most people will be using action combat since they have all the twitch skills already downpat clearly since they are use to players dodging their skills and aiming their abilities
In this case, it's mostly moot because Ashes will have both Tab Target and Action Combat.
We'll have to play to see which is more popular in Ashes.
With that said, I wanted to say that we've provided the community with a little extra clarification which can be found here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52785/combat-clarifications-have-feedback-and-thoughts-on-combat-click-here-first#latest
Make sure to drop your feedback on the topic here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52724/feedback-request-basic-melee-weapon-attack-update-discussed-in-june-livestream/p1
OK! Back to chatting ^_^
🏃♂️💨
Ha! It's a mitigated risk. No one in this conversation is a Green.
If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you.
If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.
Would that make EQ2 melee combat conditional action?
There are some factual inaccuracies in the above.
Many tab games dont calculate damage and then display the animation, as you say. This is because (especially in PvP) the animation of an attack is used as a queue to counter it, so at least in some games the damage dealt (or even if the hit connects) isnt calculated until the animation is finished.
Also, the animation in action combat is as equally unnecessary for the system to function. The animation itself is not usually used to measure a hit or miss - this calculation is usually done independently, and then the animators ensure that the animation simply fills in the area the attack checked.
Action combat would work just fine (from a mechanic standpoint) if there were no animations, the game just checked the hit area for any hit boxes, and then moved the character to the location that the attack moved them to.
It would be shit to watch, and probably a bit harder to play (no visual queue as to attack areas), but it would be mechanically the same.
Note that neither of the above are how all tab or all action combat work, different games are, well different. Trying to reduce either one down to "this is what it is" is futile.
No, if the skill is going to your target, then it's a tab skill. Just because it's visually similar doesn't mean they are functionally the same.
What are you trying to argue here?
Hold on a sec...
This ^ can also be how a hybrid hard lock could work. If I have Willowy_Elf_A target-locked, and he runs away (beyond my bow's range) and Willowy_Elf_B is right in front of my reticle. One possible outcome is that I get an 'out of range' message for Willowy_Elf_A.
Another possible outcome is that as soon as Willowy_Elf_A moves out of range it clears my locked target so my reticle (soft target) becomes the active target.
So there's lots of options...
It ain't easy bein green.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Especially when that frog killer guy is around.
But you specifically said But there are times in EQ2 where you do not need a target in order to attack.
If you dont need to perform that step of acquiring a target of your intended target is in range of a melee attack, is it still tab target?
Consider this along with casters having someone abilities that are placed rather than cast on your target, and surely the game must now be considered hybrid combat...
By performing an action that auto-selects the nearest target, it still functions relatively more as a tab-target ability.
In a more true sense of action combat, it comes down to performing an ability without the requirement for a targeting system, range limitations for said function and even tracking limitations based on ability type.
As example using melee:
do you have a target to perform the action (regardless of pre-target or auto-target after)
are they within range to perform the action?
does tracking affect the action?
Even in action combat games there are targeting system so players can cycle through target for situational scenario's if the players wish to use them. Soulsbourne games have it, game like Legend of Zelda have it as well. But a main difference is, you can perform those abilities regardless of using the targeting-locking system regardless.
There are spells cast Elden ring where you perform them and they do their thing. When it comes to melee, the lock doesn't always allow you to hit your target, it aids in a camera and character focal point interaction. It's not guaranteed to hit the target regardless of positioning like tab targeting generally is.
For ashes to have the reticle/crosshair lock-aiming-tracking system for the Tab-target based on ability type is a great choice but as I have said before, there could be limitations to its functionality and range to ensure it doesn't become an over powered mechanic vs those who free-aim and use free-aim abilities for an MMORPG.
As a side note thinking about Elden ring, those star abilities are pretty cool how they are cast and shower projectiles with tracking