Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
When I need to scratch that 1-shot, head-splatter itch that’s what the M110 rifle is for in Insurgency: Sandstorm.
Hi Sherlock, what do you think MMO stands for? I'll give you a hint, the O means online. "In 1974, Mazewar introduced the first graphic virtual world, providing a first-person perspective view of a maze in which players roamed around shooting at each other. It was also the first networked game, in which players at different computers could visually interact in a virtual space. The initial implementation was over a serial cable; however, when one of the authors began attending MIT in 1974, the game was enhanced so that it could be played across the ARPAnet, forerunner of the modern Internet."
I can't tell why you call a person Sherlock you don't really know, I just assume that is just part of communication.
I don't really care about what game company or medias claim what the game type the game is, like lots of game use the term "open world" but what is that about and lots of the games advertised as "open world" but they just games don't always need switch to loading screen or scene transaction but while they start use the term "ope world" a lot mostly were trying to tell people "open world" game equal the game world feels free and alive like a real exist world, so to me the terms they used are mostly to advertising instead of try to tell people the essences of the game.
I don't play and didn't follow Destiny 2, I only followed some information about Destiny 1 in that time on game website or twitch stream, to me Destiny is more like a multiplayer online hakoniwa shooting game, which means the game essence is shooting game and use game modes like choose between PVP or PVE contents or choose the which PVE stage you want to play before you really enter the content you want to play and have ability to play with other few people online.
To answer your question do you consider that Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 and Lost Ark that they all are MMOs? I mean if I follow what you said to categorize those games will end up they are all MMOs and further I can say Elder Ring is a MMO or Monster Hunter is a MMO or Splatoon is a MMO or Valorant is a MMO or LOL is a MMO or even most mobile waifu gacha games are also MMOs, what you said about MMO you only focus on "multiplayer" plus "online" instead of the whole "massive multiplayer online" which means to meet your definition of MMO the game just need to be multiplayer online game that lots people play it instead of games have abilities to let massive numbers of players share exactly one same game world and playing together at the same time.
What is the challenge in a open world for combat like Dark Souls? You run away, you dodge, you wait for stamina, you keep dodging. How is that challenging?
Since you may not know, the reference to "Sherlock Holmes" (a fictional detective) is a sarcasm meant to imply a person doesn't know what they are talking about or are unaware of the obvious situation. In the context of this thread the meaning of "online" has come into question and is part of the greater conversation you were addressing.
lol the ranger aiming at the ground with the reticle like 1 meter away from the enemy, and people losing their shit saying there is no "action" in Ashes because of the soft lock... I guess BDO is not an action game as well cuz their soft lock is a lot more "noob friendly" and "no skill" than Ashes soft lock
Soft lock should be in mmorpgs and it is fine with it being "noob friendly" the point is to have that skill element of tracking and focus. It isn't meant to create expert shooters or FPS combat.
It keeps the skill element higher and reduces ability to kite with easy mode and having tab target attack people off screen.
This keeps it in line with action while also ensuring the barrier to entry is not giant. It scales higher in pvp when it comes to peoples movements and such.
AoC needs to tweak the action camera a bit on the UI side as the colors kind of mix together on your soft lock target (I don't feel like the arrow above the head is enough imo) Also it feels a bit more tight there should be more leeway in how close you need to be aiming towards your target for soft lock.
Again the point isn't to make it a barrier of entry to do content in the game.
The conversation gets worse when people argue against action camera having some sort of bonus and wanting full tab and people wanting action combat. There are more arguments that here should be, everything AoC has shown is pretty much good to a high quality on what id expect. There shouldn't be complains on how the system works, besides ironing out a few things to improve it a bit.
Long story short how it works is almost there and good, there shouldn't be complains on either side. Balance is a different issue besides the fact on talking about how it works.
action is hat you feel in your soul
I said Destiny 2, not 1. Stop living in the past and come to the present day. The Future is now. To infinity and beyond. Action combat is the way and any game where multiple people can play online together is an MMO. Is doesn't even have to be in a shared open world. Fortnite by definition is an MMO. Overwatch is an MMO. Do not take whatever warp view you have to change the basic definition of an MMO.
These are cute semantic games. So I’ll make the phrasing short and specific for you:
- Destiny 2, Overwatch, and Fortnite are not MMORPGs they are MMOFPS
- Ashes is being designed as an MMORPG
- Ashes is not an MMOFPS, and it is not going to become an MMOFPS
If an MMOFPS is what you’re jonesing to play - there are plenty of options laid out above.
I only manage to find out that Destiny 2 have game content for up to 6 players and up to 4 vs 4 PVP content, if there are more please inform me.
Fortnite, Apex , PUBG or game like these I take few step back to say they are MMOs at least I can see over 40 players in one match/instance.
I guess you know there is a game called WOW and during 2003~2006 we been through 40 players raids experience and massive event The Gates of Ahn'Qiraj a game content involve most players in one server, so we call games like WOW MMORPG, no matter what the base game type it is the first three letter is MMO if the game have contents and abilities to allow massive number of players play same content in the same time.
About action combat and action elements you guys feel failed to see in ranged weapon update video, players can’t control their character like control their own body because we don’t have that technology to do that, you guys need to think again how much action element is good how much is not good.
A high skill ceiling isn't necessarily the best thing for a PvP game.
For a PvP game to be it's best, you want ad many people as close to the same overall ability as each other as is possible. No one enjoys a PvP fight when it is overly one sided (well, those that do are not the type of players an MMO wants).
I'm not saying I am asking for a low skill game or anything, but putting a hard cap on some aspects of player skill absolutely makes sense.
Unsure if you read my whole post you say some weird things here int he part you quoted....
I'm not convinced you know what mmorpgs players want now a days, I feel you have a tight circle that thinks the same as you. If you talk to a lot of people they want skill to be involved their game and to matter. That doesn't mean a tiny curve as there is no perceptive if you don't have a higher element to it.
That sounds like it isn't the type of mmo players you want, you are putting words in other peoples mouths there. So either you are saying tab target is easier to manage to keep skill levels down, or you ignore the fact about builds, rotations and such making fights completely one sided that by through player skill they can't improve mid match. As well as gear being more important than anything and creating one sided fights through tab target where they have 0 chance to win. Compared to allowing skill to move the bar on giving you a chance.
ie Rift for example if you have decent gear you could run around 2-3 shotting people with fireballs in two seconds and it was easy. Player skill would ensure their skill would matter in landing attacks as well the other player in being able to dodge and there for giving a little more of a chance. Instead of 0% chance at all to win and you lose the fight easily with it being super one sided. This is with both people being max level and the gear meaning more than anything else
Also this is a mmorpg I never said you are going to be able to block every single move on skill alone hence there will be a cap on what you can do.....Also if you read my post I talk about barrier to entry being reasonable as its not about the skill of aiming.
End of the day you don't need to be the best player in a mmorpg nor will everyone be god tier skill wise...Just play, enjoy and have fun and fight the people you can handle and recruit players based on their skills and not simply tracker sheets ;o
If by ‘talk to a lot of people’ you mean, conduct a well crafted neutral survey that eliminates confirmation bias as much as possible, then you’d have some compelling evidence to speak on behalf of the surveyed players. But I don’t think that’s what you mean at all. So your loaded dice are just as problematic as anyone else’s.
Totally fine for your opinion, but it’s your opinion.
Closest thing I’ve seen to data around the whole ‘action’ v ‘tab’ issue for ashes was conducted by Jahlon, who runs PGN. Here are the results:
This is what actual data looks like. Here’s a link to @Jahlon’s Ashes101 channel if you’re interested in his additional polls.
https://youtube.com/c/ParadoxGamingNetwork
418 votes? That's a decent sample size!
It's cool to see 95% of the population aren't purists
Yeah, I thought it was encouraging as well. I’m really looking forward to A2 and what data that provides about … well, kinda everything; certainly about how successful the initial hybrid take is for Ashes.
I agree with this, conceptually. Not trying to wade into a Mag vs Noaani argument, fuck that lol, not picking sides. I haven't even read most of the previous posts in this thread. But I agree with Noaani's post here, conceptually at least.
Where the disagreement might start is with the question of what is a high skill gap exactly and what is low? It's subjective. Everyone has a different definition.
But in an open world pvp mmo like Ashes, you may not want a super high skill gap. The game doesn't end. There's no new lobby or match to go into in Ashes like there is when you get completely smoked by tryhards in an Apex Legends match. There's no skill based match making. Everyone inhabits the same world and has to compete against the same people over and over and over.
I'd personally argue for a moderately high skill gap. Whatever the hell that means. I'd never call for a low skill gap. But there's definitely only so far Intrepid can go in creating a super high skill gap before it begins to become an actual detriment to the game.
I didnt say what *I* want, I said what developers want.
Players absolutely want a high skill ceiling. I want a high skill ceiling. I did specifically say in the post you quoted that I aren't asking for a low skill ceiling.
Thing is, developers want players being as equal as possible. This isnt just a matter of skill,it is a matter of level progression, gear, everything.
And even when players like you and I say we want a game with a high skill ceiling,we are still only saying that expecting the game to have many players around the same overall power level so that as many fights as possible are as fair as possible.
Basically, while we both say we want a thing, that doesnt mean we want it in place of another thing, even if we dont realize it.
Read your post completely well, and you seem to be talking for developers which is extremely weird considering you are a player.
And again I don't think you read my post I talk about different levels of skill and barrier to entry being easy...
It isn't entry level I am talking about, it is the top level.
As for me "talking for developers", think about it from their perspective for a second.
Would you rather develop a game where most PvP fights are fairly well matched, or where most PvP fights are one sided blowouts?
If the answer is the first (which it should be, you want to retain players), how would you achieve that in an open world setting where players can attack any player they wish?
This problem is literally the reason developers introduced brackets and matchmaking in games where that is suitable. That isnt suitablenin an open world game, and so the only option left (that anyone has come up with, at least), is to try and keep players as close together in over all power as possible.
This isnt just a skill ceiling thing either. It is also a gear issue. It is the reason games like Archeage keep introducing easier means for players to acquire a decent set of gear every 6 - 9 months. If that gear is the minimum players should be expected to have, then there aren't nearly as many stragglers in that specific regard.
And again, this is not to say that there shouldnt be scope for a better player to be "more powerful". I doubt a developer could achieve that, even if they tried. It is a matter of scope as to how much more power that player/character has.
I mean, perhaps you are after a game full of one sided fights, where some people never have a shot at winning in PvP for what ever reason. More power to you if that is what you want, but in an open world game, it isnt exactly going to lead to massive success.
Agree, that's one of the reasons why I prefer lean to horizontal progression in end game loop it's more easy for players who don't have that much time to play the game and it's help them to feel less far from full geared players and also help they know why they lose the fight and to feel the distance is not far to a good player even it's a illusion to an average player, yeah still can have some vertical progression like +1~+9 weapon do more RNG damage enchantment things that make hardcore players have things to chase and simple bigger numbers in general help them feel they are rewarded through playing the game, so before A2 I feel the information in wiki is good to me about gear progression, but try not to do something like gears become garbage after expansion I feel it's a waste of ideas especially epic/legendary gears.
With the increased respondent pool, it seems clear there is still a super-majority of players (84%) that would play Ashes without having some ideological attachment to the formal category of combat.
It’s a good thread to reference for the next round of ‘If Ashes isn’t action it will fail’ posts.
imo, a good game, and a game that can gather lot of people have to be "easy to learn, hard to master" .
So yes, it need to have a decently high skill cap. But get it as high as possible to summit ? not sure.
In games like LoL, MMORPG arenas, and so much other small scale PvP games, there is a MMR, so, if you are a bad player you will fight with and against other bad players. if you are excellent, you will fight with and against other excellent, if you are "grand master" then you will fight people you then encounter on tournaments to get the big cash price.
On a MMORPG open world, you won't have such system to try to get some "fair match" allowing to have fun... and improve step by step.
Go on a new game, discover it, be amazed, and a player, that totally hard mastered the game comes, exterminate you with no hope to even understand what happened kill you... ok fine, resurect continue, it happens again. . . You could fast get bored, feeling the skill cap to reach to be able to just play the game is so high you will need hundreds hours of training... you leave the game.
I think for MMORPG, it is needed to avoid to reach too high summit in skill player could deploy, else the open world will be nothing but noob friendly, MMORPGs needs to have fresh new players to come, enjoy, as casual or try to get hardcore, but both need to feel they can still get to their goal even with the 2years, 3 years, 10 years late to come on the game. If those 2, 3 or more years of gameplay experience makes the other players far too strong, most newbies will just drop for another good MMORPG where they don't get rekt every 15 minutes.
Now for action/tab, i have feeling it is a fashion, as trying to get photorealism graphism that were, for many people, the prove of quality, while is now just a question of artistict design, choices and taste. The poll make me think i was true...
First is 5% of people fanatic to one kind, second 17% (and feels that the people saying "tab is better" on first are half on tab half on hybrid on second so both feels like "don't care... i prefer one but i just want a good game" )
There will always be people who are fanatic about topics for video games. and maybe even more true for the complexs MMORPG which have lot of different design choice to do. But for most, people will prefer one thing, and just play if the game is globally good even if there are choices they dislike.
A same gamer can play civilization, doom and LoL at same time, 3 totally different gameplay, 3 totally different kind of skill, 3 totally different pace of gameplay, and enjoying all of them... So i think most video game enjoyers can totally adapt to many different gameplay and enjoy them
As personnal example being for me a proof of what i say :
i totally hate ani-cancel, and loved to play Aion and BnS which have both lot of it...
Right away I see their argument of bad players will have no chance, or even more so if you have 8 bad players. That has been true for pretty much all decent mmorpgs where they can never win. Between coming down to gear, builds, rotations and such the better players will win and also be more organized. (I'm sure there are examples of broken things that re easy to use if someone follows some guide they found to one shot someone).
So now suddenly skill is coming in question of them saying they are worried the skill cap will be too high, I feel that is more so a problem for them of better players being difficult for them to beat when it comes to the additional layer added on top.
As far as other people that aren't as skilled and getting stomped, when has that ever changed against them fighting a competitive guild that consistently holds territory or wins. All that matters is that there is fun things for them to do and enjoy, a more layered combat means more things for them to work and improve at over time, while having a fun gameplay experience that has some more depth to it on the skill side of things.
Onto the point about high skill with tab one question would have to be asked is why is it high. Is it because you have like 40+ abilities and you are spending time making the perfect built and knowing your rotations and what other players can do. Knowing when you use certain buffs and certain skills at the right time, etc. This seems more knowledge based and I don't refer to it as much as skill. The more things to need to figure out on this side of things of you and other classes and builds this becomes a bigger gate than anything where a casual player can't overcome to begin with.
In terms of a game that has more focus on skill yes it adds more layers of complication to it, but it lowers the amount of unnecessary things and makes it more open for people to have more of a chance in. To me this is a good thing as it is more of a complexity of design without a good reason (atleast in this day and age). IE i have all these skills ok let me spend time figure out what is going to be the most op rotation against this certain class cause i have knowledge on the 40+ abilities between both them.
You remove things that complicate the system while adding other more meaningful game ie action combat that is more available in this day and age. Rather than have 5 different skills that all feel the same and do the same in tab target as in you click and it works on the character you target. And something players need to figure out but what ones are good to use in some rotations or else wise to make it more effective.
All effectively easer to make it to gate keep and have people wonder why they die and be confused. Which goes line in line with tab target and why your issue about confusion on death is more in lines with that. Where action based you have more of a gauge on why you died, or atleast a means to avoid some of the things that may confuse you.
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1. Long story short that not having a chance is nothing new in mmorpgs against better players if you lack experience.
2. The riot mmorpg will be casual if that is what you prefer im sure btw.
3. Tab is more knowledge and hidden complexity over actual skill. Far bigger gate keeper that gives most people no chance of winning
4- You should be well aware of mmorpgs are, BDO the only one imo that has a crazy learning curve tht is nto made easy to learn as well and hard reading what is on the screen for some people.
As long as it isn't as frantic as that game the skill ceiling will still be high and fair for people. The good ones will win and bad will lose as it has always been in a mmorpg.
AoC is a mmorpg, no one is saying the skill ceiling will be like this, if this is what you are assuming you are being disingenuous off that bat trying to argue with extremes which you normally do Noaani