Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it.
If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest.
Again show content and explain in clips.
It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.
But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.
You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:
1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'
So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.
These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.
There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
1. Every weapon in the game is hitting way too fast. One-handed weapons and Two-handed weapons alike are just too twitchy. Basic attack hits should leave small nuancaed windows between them to weave in abilities in a natural flowing manner. Currently, it's simply way too fast. Hits should be impactful, they should have weight. Right now, it looks like the characters are swinging weightless lightsabers.
Would you share the games you envision to achieve this for reference?
Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
I'm still waiting for my personal disregardment of my video by Mag I'm betting on "the clicking doesn't mean anything, the combat doesn't seem all that fast".
Funny how Noaani addressed Mag's next comment before that comment even appeared. Just goes to show that we've been in a circle since the very start.
Lineage 2 had a ton of vids even before youtube became popular, but majority of those vids have disappeared and a ton of other vids got blocked to all fuck by YT's copyright dumbness, because they all used "super cool and not at all edgy" music. Pretty much any "proper" gameplay that I'd want to show doesn't exist, just as is the case with Noaani's points.
BDO just came out late enough to have all kinds of content and got pretty much completely documented since the very start. Like, hell, I can't even look up forum posts for super old L2 moments. I can only look up an archived version of the site (which is super limited) and even that is only the case thanks to some people who loved the game.
In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.
For reference of anyone who just watched the FFXI video on the forum without going to check all its data, it isn't even 'new', that video is 14 years old.
By that time the game had already been out for 4 years though.
That fight isn't even optional or top end, it's mandatory.
It's what you have to be able to do for the game to let you reach the level cap. It's literally everyman content.
I would happily provide as many videos of FFXI content as is required to get a proper discussion out of this, if I had any reason to believe it would help.
Give me a reason to believe it would help, Mag, not just your usual 'claim that you would listen if it was provided'. I'm providing it. Listen.
In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.
This is why I've never asked for proof of what you say in regards to L2.
I had my opinions of the game (knowing they were built on second hand information).
You pointed out that some of them were incorrect, and offered no proof other than what you had to say on the matter. So now, based on what you have said, those opinions of the game that I had have changed somewhat.
That said, Intrepid has very indirectly 'asked' for more discussion of Combat a while back, and seemed to want detail. The issue is normally that if we start to have any serious discussions of Combat it turns into this and I couldn't be bothered since I assumed it was a waste of time relative to anything they were already building.
Since I've seen no evidence thus far that Combat in Ashes will be as fulfilling or engaging as EITHER BDO or FFXI, might as well talk.
I would just prefer to do it without using Mag7 as my 'incompetent foil', but I've reached the point where that now falls under Mag's control and I cannot do much more, I at least have to get Mag and Noaani past their 'no u!' impasse.
I didn't want to comment that, I wasn't participating
I opened many tabs and wrote in the wrong thread, this is why I edited it since we can't delete our own replies
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
No one is saying that.
So is that your only argument?
"I press more buttons and move more often." is the definition of an Action Combat game. Who would even try to argue otherwise?
BDO's combat is shallow and simplistic, not 'static', not 'lax', and not 'light on inputs'. People who don't like it don't like it because it's shallow and simplistic.
Maybe if we get you to move the goalposts enough you'll get out of the stadium.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
No one is saying that.
So is that your only argument?
"I press more buttons and move more often." is the definition of an Action Combat game. Who would even try to argue otherwise?
BDO's combat is shallow and simplistic, not 'static', not 'lax', and not 'light on inputs'. People who don't like it don't like it because it's shallow and simplistic.
Maybe if we get you to move the goalposts enough you'll get out of the stadium.
It's weird to me how people truly think BDO is the king of Action Combat.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
No one is saying that.
So is that your only argument?
"I press more buttons and move more often." is the definition of an Action Combat game. Who would even try to argue otherwise?
BDO's combat is shallow and simplistic, not 'static', not 'lax', and not 'light on inputs'. People who don't like it don't like it because it's shallow and simplistic.
Maybe if we get you to move the goalposts enough you'll get out of the stadium.
It's weird to me how people truly think BDO is the king of Action Combat.
Not even in my top 5.
So back to Intrepid I guess, in case they somehow do not know this already.
BDO is only capable of surpassing FFXI in terms of inputs, literally just the 'hitting buttons on reaction' part, because it has animation canceling.
Ashes is claimed to not have Animation Canceling. If you create a game with no Animation Cancels and try to get to even FFXI speed in your current build type, you will make the game unplayable for a large number of people, because mid level players guess, and then they meet higher level players where guessing does them no good and they get frustrated right out of the game.
I suggest not getting to that speed level, and I also suggest not adding too many scenarios where players have the option to feel like it is 'their turn' and therefore they 'should be able to succeed at what they are trying to do in time'.
This leads to Frame Data learning in PvP scenarios and most players are not good at that. You would end up reducing your bosses to BDO tier to avoid players feeling like they 'hate the game because it should let them take an action when they want to'.
Or you will let them take those actions 'when they want to' and end up with people utterly shredding both the mid-tier players and your 'top Content', sometimes at the same time. This is not consistently enjoyable for either side in my experience, but it's hard to say with certainty because of the way most similar games are designed.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it.
If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest.
Again show content and explain in clips.
It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.
But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.
You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:
1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'
So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.
These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.
There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
I don't doubt the more layered mechanics and timing to use your skills with having smaller windows in the game. I am sure if you have multiple statis effects you need to clear and toher things you need to worry about it can be more complex than bdo.
But when it really comes to timing with the movement you use in bdo and skills it adds more layers where you you can have players missing attacks and keep your defense up without it breaking as well, or getting more/less dmg on the players you hit.
Its not just about BDO being spammy with skills at factions of a second constantly, but also the other elements you need to deal with on top of it. And comments to say that it is worse than tab target as far as speed is insane.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise.
Actually, you do.
You need the loot from end game raiding that speeds your character up, you need the buffs from a full raid that speed your character up, and you need the encounter mechanics that force you to do other things at the same time as using your significantly sped up class abilities (and in some cases, also speed you up).
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it.
If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest.
Again show content and explain in clips.
It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.
But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.
You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:
1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'
So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.
These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.
There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
I don't doubt the more layered mechanics and timing to use your skills with having smaller windows in the game. I am sure if you have multiple statis effects you need to clear and toher things you need to worry about it can be more complex than bdo.
But when it really comes to timing with the movement you use in bdo and skills it adds more layers where you you can have players missing attacks and keep your defense up without it breaking as well, or getting more/less dmg on the players you hit.
Its not just about BDO being spammy with skills at factions of a second constantly, but also the other elements you need to deal with on top of it. And comments to say that it is worse than tab target as far as speed is insane.
Alright, well, I guess we'll leave it at that, since it really comes down to faith at that point.
I gave my data, and you say that it's insane and that you basically can't believe it.
I've played both games, and you haven't, and you seem to have no basis for your disbelief, you just maintain it, so I guess that's it. You can probably keep going in circles with Noaani instead, at least now there's videos, for whatever good that does.
As for Intrepid feedback, be careful, as you can see, there will in fact be some players who think 'but there isn't enough moving around so it isn't as fast'. You're going to have to do the same thing BDO does at least in that sense, just please do it carefully. In my experience 'tricking' this player type is required, but your current path is suspect due to the 'no Animation Cancels' part.
Just be careful with the frame data, you've already chosen Split Body and relatively high speed.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
No one is saying that.
So is that your only argument?
"I press more buttons and move more often." is the definition of an Action Combat game. Who would even try to argue otherwise?
BDO's combat is shallow and simplistic, not 'static', not 'lax', and not 'light on inputs'. People who don't like it don't like it because it's shallow and simplistic.
Maybe if we get you to move the goalposts enough you'll get out of the stadium.
It's weird to me how people truly think BDO is the king of Action Combat.
Not even in my top 5.
So back to Intrepid I guess, in case they somehow do not know this already.
BDO is only capable of surpassing FFXI in terms of inputs, literally just the 'hitting buttons on reaction' part, because it has animation canceling.
Ashes is claimed to not have Animation Canceling. If you create a game with no Animation Cancels and try to get to even FFXI speed in your current build type, you will make the game unplayable for a large number of people, because mid level players guess, and then they meet higher level players where guessing does them no good and they get frustrated right out of the game.
I suggest not getting to that speed level, and I also suggest not adding too many scenarios where players have the option to feel like it is 'their turn' and therefore they 'should be able to succeed at what they are trying to do in time'.
This leads to Frame Data learning in PvP scenarios and most players are not good at that. You would end up reducing your bosses to BDO tier to avoid players feeling like they 'hate the game because it should let them take an action when they want to'.
Or you will let them take those actions 'when they want to' and end up with people utterly shredding both the mid-tier players and your 'top Content', sometimes at the same time. This is not consistently enjoyable for either side in my experience, but it's hard to say with certainty because of the way most similar games are designed.
I feel they are capable of dissecting combat and analyze it for its parts and seeing what about those parts should and should not be included in their combat.
Honestly, if we're going to talk about games with best combat then I am going to toss a mention at Battlerite. (For PvP that is.) I dont think I will ever play a game with that intense and skill-based PvP. Too bad the developers abandoned it after a long row of bad decisions.
Anyways, could someone offer some clarification; Interpid stated that there will be no animation-canceling - does that mean there will be no "fake casting", or that you have to finish the animation to do the effect (but can choose to cancel the animation/spellcast and it's effec)? Imo, "fake casting" is a crucial element for engaging PvP.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it.
If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest.
Again show content and explain in clips.
It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.
But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.
You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:
1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'
So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.
These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.
There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
I don't doubt the more layered mechanics and timing to use your skills with having smaller windows in the game. I am sure if you have multiple statis effects you need to clear and toher things you need to worry about it can be more complex than bdo.
But when it really comes to timing with the movement you use in bdo and skills it adds more layers where you you can have players missing attacks and keep your defense up without it breaking as well, or getting more/less dmg on the players you hit.
Its not just about BDO being spammy with skills at factions of a second constantly, but also the other elements you need to deal with on top of it. And comments to say that it is worse than tab target as far as speed is insane.
Alright, well, I guess we'll leave it at that, since it really comes down to faith at that point.
I gave my data, and you say that it's insane and that you basically can't believe it.
I've played both games, and you haven't, and you seem to have no basis for your disbelief, you just maintain it, so I guess that's it. You can probably keep going in circles with Noaani instead, at least now there's videos, for whatever good that does.
As for Intrepid feedback, be careful, as you can see, there will in fact be some players who think 'but there isn't enough moving around so it isn't as fast'. You're going to have to do the same thing BDO does at least in that sense, just please do it carefully. In my experience 'tricking' this player type is required, but your current path is suspect due to the 'no Animation Cancels' part.
Just be careful with the frame data, you've already chosen Split Body and relatively high speed.
You realizing im quoting noanni saying tab in general is better than BDO combat for speed and positioning, and my comment is not targeted at your particular game?
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise.
Actually, you do.
You need the loot from end game raiding that speeds your character up, you need the buffs from a full raid that speed your character up, and you need the encounter mechanics that force you to do other things at the same time as using your significantly sped up class abilities (and in some cases, also speed you up).
Yes so there has to be some clips out there with end game loot. Or load your own character and show it.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it.
If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest.
Again show content and explain in clips.
It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.
But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.
You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:
1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'
So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.
These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.
There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
I don't doubt the more layered mechanics and timing to use your skills with having smaller windows in the game. I am sure if you have multiple statis effects you need to clear and toher things you need to worry about it can be more complex than bdo.
But when it really comes to timing with the movement you use in bdo and skills it adds more layers where you you can have players missing attacks and keep your defense up without it breaking as well, or getting more/less dmg on the players you hit.
Its not just about BDO being spammy with skills at factions of a second constantly, but also the other elements you need to deal with on top of it. And comments to say that it is worse than tab target as far as speed is insane.
Alright, well, I guess we'll leave it at that, since it really comes down to faith at that point.
I gave my data, and you say that it's insane and that you basically can't believe it.
I've played both games, and you haven't, and you seem to have no basis for your disbelief, you just maintain it, so I guess that's it. You can probably keep going in circles with Noaani instead, at least now there's videos, for whatever good that does.
As for Intrepid feedback, be careful, as you can see, there will in fact be some players who think 'but there isn't enough moving around so it isn't as fast'. You're going to have to do the same thing BDO does at least in that sense, just please do it carefully. In my experience 'tricking' this player type is required, but your current path is suspect due to the 'no Animation Cancels' part.
Just be careful with the frame data, you've already chosen Split Body and relatively high speed.
You realizing im quoting noanni saying tab in general is better than BDO combat for speed and positioning, and my comment is not targeted at your particular game?
I didnt say it was in general.
If I were to talk about tab target MMO's in general, I would have to use WoW as the exampler. WoW is not as fast as BDO, nor do players have as many decisions to make.
That said, I can understand you taking my initial comment as being about all 20 year old tab target games - I 'm happy to say I wasnt as clear as I could have been.
For clarity, I was talking about a specific game from 20 years ago.
And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.
Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO
I dont doubt you have played a few tab target MMO's.
The thing is, I also dont doubt you havent played any in depth. The thing with top end content in tab target games is that it is where the actual fun is at (not just raiding content, top end group content as well).
Again, this is a thing I've explained to you before. The combat system itself isnt great. Fighting trash mobs with it isnt great. The thing is, top end content in tab target games are just meat sacks like they tend to be in action games, they are literally additions to the games combat system. They literally change how you play your character, just for that one encounter.
This is the part of tab target games in general you have obviously never managed to grasp.
This thread is kind of funny, instead of coming to the rescue of our favorite combat in old games. Why not discuss the parts of those systems that make them great, in detail and depth.
Instead of shallow and superficial reasoning and bickering.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
i have a lot on my plate. ill look at the video eventually trying to do like 2 convos at a time.
As far as attacks yes your moves happen pretty fast, though I wouldn't say it is as fast as BDO. If it is speed I'm thinking about a lot of elements and how they combine together. Between the positioning, speed of attacks, effects of attacks, defense, and how those work within the game, etc.
The attacks in the video seem faster but the overall speed of a fight in bdo is more complex in terms of what I see with speed. You also have a general rhythm when it comes to tab target games, where BDO had a splash of more fighting game feeling where you could break away from the rhythm to feint people and such.
As far as attacks yes your moves happen pretty fast, though I wouldn't say it is as fast as BDO. If it is speed I'm thinking about a lot of elements and how they combine together. Between the positioning, speed of attacks, effects of attacks, defense, and how those work within the game, etc.
The attacks in the video seem faster but the overall speed of a fight in bdo is more complex in terms of what I see with speed. You also have a general rhythm when it comes to tab target games, where BDO had a splash of more fighting game feeling where you could break away from the rhythm to feint people and such.
I explained a bit how the fight was going down in the original post of that video. Both sides had to move in a way that would keep their backs from the enemy. And I explained that overclicking the targets would be bad too, so they had to control their actions correctly.
And I also said that this was an older version of the game, with the newer having even more tools to feint and outthink your opponents. And the speed was even higher too. This was just the only fitting video I could find within reasonable time.
So as Noaani has been saying over and over, you can't just see a video and know all the actions and thought processes the player is making. So if you say that attacks are even faster than BDO in this video, the later versions of L2 must be waaay faster than BDO with even deeper decision trees. Obviously there's a range in how deep some classes go, but Azherae said that this is true for BDO as well, so there's that.
But my main point is that it's possible for a tab game to be, at the very least, as fast as BDO. And imo targeting with a mouse that you also use for moving requires waay more visual precision than just few degree turns in BDO, but I haven't played enough BDO to say that with full confidence and no one in this current discussion has played enough L2 (and BDO) to say that I'm super wrong either. This is why we keep telling you that you just gotta trust us a bit.
Comments
It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.
But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.
You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:
1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'
So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.
These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.
There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
Would you share the games you envision to achieve this for reference?
I agree, the attacks should be clean and simple with sounds that aren't grating so they convey the best data possible.
For reference of anyone who just watched the FFXI video on the forum without going to check all its data, it isn't even 'new', that video is 14 years old.
By that time the game had already been out for 4 years though.
That fight isn't even optional or top end, it's mandatory.
It's what you have to be able to do for the game to let you reach the level cap. It's literally everyman content.
I would happily provide as many videos of FFXI content as is required to get a proper discussion out of this, if I had any reason to believe it would help.
Give me a reason to believe it would help, Mag, not just your usual 'claim that you would listen if it was provided'. I'm providing it. Listen.
I had my opinions of the game (knowing they were built on second hand information).
You pointed out that some of them were incorrect, and offered no proof other than what you had to say on the matter. So now, based on what you have said, those opinions of the game that I had have changed somewhat.
That is how discussion works, imo.
EDIT: To replace an error-post situation, might as well use the space.
I didn't want to comment that, I wasn't participating
I opened many tabs and wrote in the wrong thread, this is why I edited it since we can't delete our own replies
EDIT: Same as above.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
No one is saying that.
So is that your only argument?
"I press more buttons and move more often." is the definition of an Action Combat game. Who would even try to argue otherwise?
BDO's combat is shallow and simplistic, not 'static', not 'lax', and not 'light on inputs'. People who don't like it don't like it because it's shallow and simplistic.
Maybe if we get you to move the goalposts enough you'll get out of the stadium.
It's weird to me how people truly think BDO is the king of Action Combat.
Not even in my top 5.
So back to Intrepid I guess, in case they somehow do not know this already.
BDO is only capable of surpassing FFXI in terms of inputs, literally just the 'hitting buttons on reaction' part, because it has animation canceling.
Ashes is claimed to not have Animation Canceling. If you create a game with no Animation Cancels and try to get to even FFXI speed in your current build type, you will make the game unplayable for a large number of people, because mid level players guess, and then they meet higher level players where guessing does them no good and they get frustrated right out of the game.
I suggest not getting to that speed level, and I also suggest not adding too many scenarios where players have the option to feel like it is 'their turn' and therefore they 'should be able to succeed at what they are trying to do in time'.
This leads to Frame Data learning in PvP scenarios and most players are not good at that. You would end up reducing your bosses to BDO tier to avoid players feeling like they 'hate the game because it should let them take an action when they want to'.
Or you will let them take those actions 'when they want to' and end up with people utterly shredding both the mid-tier players and your 'top Content', sometimes at the same time. This is not consistently enjoyable for either side in my experience, but it's hard to say with certainty because of the way most similar games are designed.
I don't doubt the more layered mechanics and timing to use your skills with having smaller windows in the game. I am sure if you have multiple statis effects you need to clear and toher things you need to worry about it can be more complex than bdo.
But when it really comes to timing with the movement you use in bdo and skills it adds more layers where you you can have players missing attacks and keep your defense up without it breaking as well, or getting more/less dmg on the players you hit.
Its not just about BDO being spammy with skills at factions of a second constantly, but also the other elements you need to deal with on top of it. And comments to say that it is worse than tab target as far as speed is insane.
i have a lot on my plate. ill look at the video eventually trying to do like 2 convos at a time.
Actually, you do.
You need the loot from end game raiding that speeds your character up, you need the buffs from a full raid that speed your character up, and you need the encounter mechanics that force you to do other things at the same time as using your significantly sped up class abilities (and in some cases, also speed you up).
Alright, well, I guess we'll leave it at that, since it really comes down to faith at that point.
I gave my data, and you say that it's insane and that you basically can't believe it.
I've played both games, and you haven't, and you seem to have no basis for your disbelief, you just maintain it, so I guess that's it. You can probably keep going in circles with Noaani instead, at least now there's videos, for whatever good that does.
As for Intrepid feedback, be careful, as you can see, there will in fact be some players who think 'but there isn't enough moving around so it isn't as fast'. You're going to have to do the same thing BDO does at least in that sense, just please do it carefully. In my experience 'tricking' this player type is required, but your current path is suspect due to the 'no Animation Cancels' part.
Just be careful with the frame data, you've already chosen Split Body and relatively high speed.
I feel they are capable of dissecting combat and analyze it for its parts and seeing what about those parts should and should not be included in their combat.
Anyways, could someone offer some clarification; Interpid stated that there will be no animation-canceling - does that mean there will be no "fake casting", or that you have to finish the animation to do the effect (but can choose to cancel the animation/spellcast and it's effec)? Imo, "fake casting" is a crucial element for engaging PvP.
You realizing im quoting noanni saying tab in general is better than BDO combat for speed and positioning, and my comment is not targeted at your particular game?
Yes so there has to be some clips out there with end game loot. Or load your own character and show it.
I didnt say it was in general.
If I were to talk about tab target MMO's in general, I would have to use WoW as the exampler. WoW is not as fast as BDO, nor do players have as many decisions to make.
That said, I can understand you taking my initial comment as being about all 20 year old tab target games - I 'm happy to say I wasnt as clear as I could have been.
For clarity, I was talking about a specific game from 20 years ago.
The thing is, I also dont doubt you havent played any in depth. The thing with top end content in tab target games is that it is where the actual fun is at (not just raiding content, top end group content as well).
Again, this is a thing I've explained to you before. The combat system itself isnt great. Fighting trash mobs with it isnt great. The thing is, top end content in tab target games are just meat sacks like they tend to be in action games, they are literally additions to the games combat system. They literally change how you play your character, just for that one encounter.
This is the part of tab target games in general you have obviously never managed to grasp.
Instead of shallow and superficial reasoning and bickering.
As far as attacks yes your moves happen pretty fast, though I wouldn't say it is as fast as BDO. If it is speed I'm thinking about a lot of elements and how they combine together. Between the positioning, speed of attacks, effects of attacks, defense, and how those work within the game, etc.
The attacks in the video seem faster but the overall speed of a fight in bdo is more complex in terms of what I see with speed. You also have a general rhythm when it comes to tab target games, where BDO had a splash of more fighting game feeling where you could break away from the rhythm to feint people and such.
And I also said that this was an older version of the game, with the newer having even more tools to feint and outthink your opponents. And the speed was even higher too. This was just the only fitting video I could find within reasonable time.
So as Noaani has been saying over and over, you can't just see a video and know all the actions and thought processes the player is making. So if you say that attacks are even faster than BDO in this video, the later versions of L2 must be waaay faster than BDO with even deeper decision trees. Obviously there's a range in how deep some classes go, but Azherae said that this is true for BDO as well, so there's that.
But my main point is that it's possible for a tab game to be, at the very least, as fast as BDO. And imo targeting with a mouse that you also use for moving requires waay more visual precision than just few degree turns in BDO, but I haven't played enough BDO to say that with full confidence and no one in this current discussion has played enough L2 (and BDO) to say that I'm super wrong either. This is why we keep telling you that you just gotta trust us a bit.
We're excited to have Alpha Two in the hands of players as soon as it's ready, so we can all test combat together! \o/
But do you get to test it in an arcane Vrod high fantasy assault mount?