Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.
But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.
You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:
1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'
So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.
These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.
There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
Would you share the games you envision to achieve this for reference?
I agree, the attacks should be clean and simple with sounds that aren't grating so they convey the best data possible.
For reference of anyone who just watched the FFXI video on the forum without going to check all its data, it isn't even 'new', that video is 14 years old.
By that time the game had already been out for 4 years though.
That fight isn't even optional or top end, it's mandatory.
It's what you have to be able to do for the game to let you reach the level cap. It's literally everyman content.
I would happily provide as many videos of FFXI content as is required to get a proper discussion out of this, if I had any reason to believe it would help.
Give me a reason to believe it would help, Mag, not just your usual 'claim that you would listen if it was provided'. I'm providing it. Listen.
I had my opinions of the game (knowing they were built on second hand information).
You pointed out that some of them were incorrect, and offered no proof other than what you had to say on the matter. So now, based on what you have said, those opinions of the game that I had have changed somewhat.
That is how discussion works, imo.
EDIT: To replace an error-post situation, might as well use the space.
I didn't want to comment that, I wasn't participating
I opened many tabs and wrote in the wrong thread, this is why I edited it since we can't delete our own replies
EDIT: Same as above.
You don't need a end game raid to show what a character can do input wise (you can do the same inputs in a pvp setting or against any other mob and show the speed of the combat). If you are effectively say you do more inputs and position in tab target mmorpgs it means you should be finding one of them that exist to use as your reference in the past like 20 years of tab target mmorpgs being released.
No one is saying that.
So is that your only argument?
"I press more buttons and move more often." is the definition of an Action Combat game. Who would even try to argue otherwise?
BDO's combat is shallow and simplistic, not 'static', not 'lax', and not 'light on inputs'. People who don't like it don't like it because it's shallow and simplistic.
Maybe if we get you to move the goalposts enough you'll get out of the stadium.
It's weird to me how people truly think BDO is the king of Action Combat.
Not even in my top 5.
So back to Intrepid I guess, in case they somehow do not know this already.
BDO is only capable of surpassing FFXI in terms of inputs, literally just the 'hitting buttons on reaction' part, because it has animation canceling.
Ashes is claimed to not have Animation Canceling. If you create a game with no Animation Cancels and try to get to even FFXI speed in your current build type, you will make the game unplayable for a large number of people, because mid level players guess, and then they meet higher level players where guessing does them no good and they get frustrated right out of the game.
I suggest not getting to that speed level, and I also suggest not adding too many scenarios where players have the option to feel like it is 'their turn' and therefore they 'should be able to succeed at what they are trying to do in time'.
This leads to Frame Data learning in PvP scenarios and most players are not good at that. You would end up reducing your bosses to BDO tier to avoid players feeling like they 'hate the game because it should let them take an action when they want to'.
Or you will let them take those actions 'when they want to' and end up with people utterly shredding both the mid-tier players and your 'top Content', sometimes at the same time. This is not consistently enjoyable for either side in my experience, but it's hard to say with certainty because of the way most similar games are designed.
I don't doubt the more layered mechanics and timing to use your skills with having smaller windows in the game. I am sure if you have multiple statis effects you need to clear and toher things you need to worry about it can be more complex than bdo.
But when it really comes to timing with the movement you use in bdo and skills it adds more layers where you you can have players missing attacks and keep your defense up without it breaking as well, or getting more/less dmg on the players you hit.
Its not just about BDO being spammy with skills at factions of a second constantly, but also the other elements you need to deal with on top of it. And comments to say that it is worse than tab target as far as speed is insane.
i have a lot on my plate. ill look at the video eventually trying to do like 2 convos at a time.
Actually, you do.
You need the loot from end game raiding that speeds your character up, you need the buffs from a full raid that speed your character up, and you need the encounter mechanics that force you to do other things at the same time as using your significantly sped up class abilities (and in some cases, also speed you up).
Alright, well, I guess we'll leave it at that, since it really comes down to faith at that point.
I gave my data, and you say that it's insane and that you basically can't believe it.
I've played both games, and you haven't, and you seem to have no basis for your disbelief, you just maintain it, so I guess that's it. You can probably keep going in circles with Noaani instead, at least now there's videos, for whatever good that does.
As for Intrepid feedback, be careful, as you can see, there will in fact be some players who think 'but there isn't enough moving around so it isn't as fast'. You're going to have to do the same thing BDO does at least in that sense, just please do it carefully. In my experience 'tricking' this player type is required, but your current path is suspect due to the 'no Animation Cancels' part.
Just be careful with the frame data, you've already chosen Split Body and relatively high speed.
I feel they are capable of dissecting combat and analyze it for its parts and seeing what about those parts should and should not be included in their combat.
Anyways, could someone offer some clarification; Interpid stated that there will be no animation-canceling - does that mean there will be no "fake casting", or that you have to finish the animation to do the effect (but can choose to cancel the animation/spellcast and it's effec)? Imo, "fake casting" is a crucial element for engaging PvP.
You realizing im quoting noanni saying tab in general is better than BDO combat for speed and positioning, and my comment is not targeted at your particular game?
Yes so there has to be some clips out there with end game loot. Or load your own character and show it.
I didnt say it was in general.
If I were to talk about tab target MMO's in general, I would have to use WoW as the exampler. WoW is not as fast as BDO, nor do players have as many decisions to make.
That said, I can understand you taking my initial comment as being about all 20 year old tab target games - I 'm happy to say I wasnt as clear as I could have been.
For clarity, I was talking about a specific game from 20 years ago.
The thing is, I also dont doubt you havent played any in depth. The thing with top end content in tab target games is that it is where the actual fun is at (not just raiding content, top end group content as well).
Again, this is a thing I've explained to you before. The combat system itself isnt great. Fighting trash mobs with it isnt great. The thing is, top end content in tab target games are just meat sacks like they tend to be in action games, they are literally additions to the games combat system. They literally change how you play your character, just for that one encounter.
This is the part of tab target games in general you have obviously never managed to grasp.
Instead of shallow and superficial reasoning and bickering.
As far as attacks yes your moves happen pretty fast, though I wouldn't say it is as fast as BDO. If it is speed I'm thinking about a lot of elements and how they combine together. Between the positioning, speed of attacks, effects of attacks, defense, and how those work within the game, etc.
The attacks in the video seem faster but the overall speed of a fight in bdo is more complex in terms of what I see with speed. You also have a general rhythm when it comes to tab target games, where BDO had a splash of more fighting game feeling where you could break away from the rhythm to feint people and such.
And I also said that this was an older version of the game, with the newer having even more tools to feint and outthink your opponents. And the speed was even higher too. This was just the only fitting video I could find within reasonable time.
So as Noaani has been saying over and over, you can't just see a video and know all the actions and thought processes the player is making. So if you say that attacks are even faster than BDO in this video, the later versions of L2 must be waaay faster than BDO with even deeper decision trees. Obviously there's a range in how deep some classes go, but Azherae said that this is true for BDO as well, so there's that.
But my main point is that it's possible for a tab game to be, at the very least, as fast as BDO. And imo targeting with a mouse that you also use for moving requires waay more visual precision than just few degree turns in BDO, but I haven't played enough BDO to say that with full confidence and no one in this current discussion has played enough L2 (and BDO) to say that I'm super wrong either. This is why we keep telling you that you just gotta trust us a bit.
We're excited to have Alpha Two in the hands of players as soon as it's ready, so we can all test combat together! \o/
But do you get to test it in an arcane Vrod high fantasy assault mount?