Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Even if the devs dont want AoC to be a PVP-centric game.
Reading the description, it seems to suggest that it will still be an integral part of it with zones that will be entirely dedicated to it. With a flagging system for open world pvp.
The question still stands, Is that something you like? or if you don't like, are willing to put up with?
Edit : Typos
I'm eager too - I have been since EQNext shared their vision of PvP conflict (what Ashes calls Meaningful Conflict) which spurs me to pursue PvP combat, though normally I'm a pacifist carebear.
Again, the EQNext scenario is:
If I have to kill dryads to siphon their Life magic and convert it into Shadow energy which powers the Stealth abilities for my Rogue... any player characters who try to stop me from killing dryads will just have to die!!
But... I tend to only enjoy PvP combat for about an hour out of my eight hour play sessions. Because I'm a casual challenge player and PvP combat is too hardcore challenge for me to enjoy for more than an hour.
So, it's likely that I'm not going to enjoy playing in a world with OWPvP 24/7.
Again, currently the best solution I've seen is to use the Stock Exchange analytics to determine the server with the lowest instances of PvP combat.. and see if that feels comfortable.
And that solution came after many pages and a few weeks of discussion in this thread.
I hear you my friend. I never tend to pug PvP but with this game I'm going to have to as it will happen by simply being a part of the world. There's a lot in this thread that needs clarification but the discussion has been good and mostly constructive.
As you say, we will have to wait and see.
Not Directed to Dygz:
There isn't anything wrong with people putting their 2 cents in. This is what we want and this is what we need for this game to contain everything the gamers want. This is the point in time we have for this, not after the game is complete. I guarantee @Dygz has a lot of experience and insight in MMOs and i'd rather hear what he has to say than to brush it off as "find a new game". That mentality is ridiculous and poisonous, not what we want in this so far awesome community.
Personally, I love PvP (I think I've already made that clear) and the PvP system is the soul aspect of what got my attention for this game. Due to the flagging systems previous success I don't understand why people think it's going to be some PK fest. To be honest it's going to be more difficult in this game than the previous in which I played. This is assuming nothing changes from what the Devs have put out.
I recommend asking opinions on how the flagging system works with PK's and it's difference from a hardcore PvP game from people who have used the same flagging system before being dead set on this not being a good system @GOAT @AkaBear @Nelirya
I specifically tagged those people because of their experience in Lineage 2. The description of the flagging and corruption system is almost completely identical
Well, just do not expect that there will not be random unwanted PVP. Because there will be. Intrepid would not bother with a "corruption system" or a "Bounty Hunter system" if they did not expect unwanted/unexpected PVP combat to be fairly common. They simply would shut it off.
The fact that they are designing for it as well as systems to counter it, is a pretty obvious indicator that they are going to find a way to make it a rewarding pastime for some players. Individuals will see options and have choices to make like "is the risk of the activity/action worth the reward for success vs failure".
Not trying to scare anyone off here. Just being realistic. Intrepid has plenty of coding to do. They would not waste their time designing mechanics that never get used because no one feels random player killing is worth the time.
In short, expect the unexpected and play smart to lessen any unwanted activity risk to yourself.
I don't want to feel like this could end up being the same thing, if there is open PK system just like what mortal online and Darkfall Online, both of those games turn all the people into nothing more then a gankfest and it feels like everything you die, your progress just dropped tremediously and it feels like you cannot recover at this point... I don't like being ganked and never recover, like trying to build the best sword, and someone killed ya and STOLED EVERYTHING, and you left with nothing... total progress stolen from ya...
You know what I do next? Uninstall the game, delete my account if possible, and if possible, find a way to block myself from ever getting this game ever again, if the game exist on steam and is under my account, I will permanently delete it off my account for good and give it a negative rating, and move on.
PvP is not my forte, and if this game ever has that huge thing for PvP, I'm not going to very happy with constantly being an victim of every PK asshole in the server.
Meaningful Conflict is one of the devs' 4 Pillars for Ashes of Creation:
Nodes, Meaningful Conflict, Economy and Narrative
Meaningful Conflict appears to be the Ashes take on EQNext's PvP Conflict - which was intended to drive the narrative of EQNext.
I don't have enough details for Ashes lore and systems, so my best example is from EQNext:
The Dark Elves of Silverspine establish a base where they create shadow pits that convert Life magic into Shadow energy, which strengthens their gear and Shadow spells. Shadow energy also fuels Stealth abilities.
The Dark Elves siphon Life magic from Dryads in Kithicor Forest.
The Druids of Kithicor, who value Life magic, must protect the dryads from the Dark Elves - especially because the depletion of Life magic cause blight throughout the forest.
What players would later discover if too many Dryads are killed is that the Dryads have been holding back banished Shadow Demons that wish to destroy all life. Siphoning too much Life magic will release the Shadow Demons who will permanently destroy all Life in that area and spread as far across the globe as they can.
At that point, the devs expect that Dark Elf player characters would probably want to ally with the Druid player characters in order to banish the Shadow Demons.
Because the Shadow Demons kill anything living - including Dark Elves.
I typically rely heavily on Stealth in order to explore as much of the world as quickly as possible. I expect that I would want to side with the Dark Elves to strengthen my Stealth magic with Shadow energy.
I wouldn't really care about the ramifications for the Dryads.
The defenders of the Dryads won't care that I'm really just trying to strengthen my Stealth magic.
Where I typically am not interested in PvP combat, the PvP conflict pushes me into encounters where I'm likely to get involved in PvP combat even while I'm really just pursuing PvE content . I just want to augment my Stealth, but doing so conflicts with the players in Kithicor. And ultimately could damage regions outside of Kithicor, even Silverspine...though we won't know the full ramifications initially.
Even though normally I'm a pacifist carebear, if I have to kill some player characters to strengthen my Stealth abilities...well, some player characters might just have to die.
Oooops!
Same on the flip side if I'm playing a Kithicor Druid who is trying to prevent blight in the forest. If I have to kill some player character Dark Elves to prevent blight from spreading throughout the forest... well, some player character Dark Elves will just have to die.
In Ashes, that kind of conflict is going to be driving PvP combat.
That's what we will be encountering way more than random PKers --
I'm just trying to focus on PvE to strengthen my Stealth augments, but I get attacked by other player characters. Technically, that's a legitimate attack.
It's Meaningful Conflict, not just people out to gank other player for giggles and loot.
And I expect to enjoy those encounters for a while -- I'm actually eager for that kind of Meaningful Conflict, but...
I remembered a few weeks ago that my threshold for hardcore encounters is typically only about an hour and then I want to be able to PvE adventure without being bothered at all by PvP combat.
In Ashes, we can imagine some of this will be driven by trying to acquire or maintain various forms of augments - or harvesting specific types of wood required to erect the buildings that will provide the perks we want.
Meaningful Conflict means that our day-to-day actions will have a negative impact on rival nodes, driving other players to prevent us from achieving our goals - even when our goals seem to be innocent PvE. And players will frequently choose to resolve that Meaningful Conflict via PvP combat.
Which will be great for hardcore PvPers, but...
I think PvE adventurers and casual PvPers are going to still feel like they are forced into PvP combat when they aren't in the mood for PvP combat.
All that to say...
I'm not really as concerned about the random PKers who PK just for fun.
I'm more concerned about the PvPers who actually have legit motivations to attack other player characters - because it's likely to still feel overwhelming for those who aren't so hardcore into PvP combat.
But, we will have to play to know for sure.
And, again, we might be able to minimize that if we're able to find a server that has the lowest PvP combat.
Again, Steven thinks corruption is harsh because he only plays a main and never uses alts.
It's rare in Lineage 2 that you go without dying anyway. You have to work off the karma through grinding or by dying. If you go for the grind, odds are you'll be seen and attacked.
One difference is Lineage 2 also kept track of your total PK count regardless of if you still have your Karma or not. This PK count was a vital role in the calculation for dropping gear on death. The only way to lower this count was a long quest that seemed almost not worth it for me. For those who had many PKs, There was no losing that count.
If you are the one attacking a "red" character, you will not flag. Instead your name will remain white as you unleash hell on the "red". This would prevent anyone from jumping in to save the "red" without having to become "red" themselves.
Lets assume you get attacked while trying to work off karma through grinding:
As a "red" character you would have to defend yourself by adding more karma (killing a player that won't flag on you because your red) and only using skills that can be used against a non-flagged player. Therefor you were extremely limited. No holds, stuns, aoe's, aggro skills, or even dots would be usable. I would say it is definitely harsher, and I would like to see gear penalties not stacked due to these other factors.
Red characters will DIE and they will die fast unless they log off and stay away from areas where they will be seen by virtually any player. Once they have been seen it's announced in chat and top players who love PvP always show up for the hunt. It's not like you can run around killing everyone in Lineage 2 all day and expect to even be holding a weapon by the end of the day. You WILL drop gear, and in Lineage 2; Obtaining gear is not easy. Going red and losing weapons has caused countless people to have to reroll due to no way of working towards new gear.
That being said, if you lower gear stats depending on your corruption, this will lower pk's exponentially. Not to mention if you have the potential to drop gear and gear isn't cheap.
Very informative thank you! I now see where you are coming from.
The comparison I have been using is assuming we are talking about PKs for fun. Lineage 2 is definitely not comparable seeing as you never have to fight if you don't choose to. (unless you're in a clan at war or want to partake in a castle siege).
We will have to see if "meaningful conflict" is required. I'm sure there will be other ways to augment your stealth (using your example) without the need for PvP. But, Like you said; we will have to see.
Get on your main, go on a killing spree. Log off main in a secluded spot, log into alt account, move him to where the main is. Log in main, use alt to kill main. No more corruption, no worry about losing an item or two, and the alt gets the bounty.
The more I think about the system as described the more holes I see for potential exploitation.
You are also assuming you can get away and log first, most often you will be seen logging so your location will be given away. This brings up the other question... Is all that time wasted worth it? Because of how much time you lose, you have to add this into your calculation if it were to lessen PKs.
You can't make it impossible to get away with murder. That would defeat the purpose of a game with PvP. You just need to make it extremely difficult
I have said it in a few post here now but Lineage 2 was Steven's favorite mmo. So if Steven is making his dream mmo, it only makes sense the he will subconsciously be taking his best memories of Lineage 2 and putting them in Ashes with a bit of a twist.
Who is going to volunteer and go corrupt first for a test?
The conflict with the other player(s) is caused by the conflicting objectives.
That could be conflicts with objectives for rival gods or even just the ramifications of getting a building built that provides desired perks.
We can't really avoid PvP conflict.
That doesn't necessarily mean PvP combat is the only way to resolve the conflict, but PvP combat will be a common solution.
It's motivating me to be eager to initiate PvP combat... and I'm normally about as carebear as a person can be.
I might even do that volunteer to be the first to gain as much corruption as possible!! Especially as part of a test!!!
Nooooo.
If I actually enjoyed ganking people, I would level an alt up to Level 5 or Level 10 and then roleplay that character as a zombie. Murdering as many lowbies as possible. Gaining as much corruption as possible.
Being hunted and killed by bounty hunters would be part of the fun.
I would get to play a monster without needing a monster coin.
Corruption doesn't matter on an alt intended to be a zombie monster because that doesn't affect my main.
Personally I think people are over-blowing the situation before the games even out. Like BDO everyone here on the forums say its a gankfest. While I myself have never played my friend who HATES PvP of all forms and wont even play Starcraft or Civ without me having locked alliances says its not that bad and has rarely had to fight in pvp. *Shrug* He could be wrong, the forums could be wrong IDK, But I do know people have a tenancy to over-blow situations they don't like even when they haven't happened yet.
There will be no disadvantage since I won't be rushing for levels.
You assume there will be guild members in the area where I let my zombie loose.
For some reason you focus on the bounty hunters rather than the players I ganked.
Being ganked by avengers would be a major part of the fun of roleplaying a zombie.
It's a win/win scenario.
I haven't seen anyone here say that Ashes will be a gankfest - rather just more PvP combat than we're comfortable with.
Maybe it's overblown...but it's been typical of me to start MMORPGs on PVP optional servers because I like PvP combat sometimes.
I have always been driven to leave the PvP servers and play instead on the PvE-only servers. Because of too many encounters with asshats who won't leave me alone when I'm in no mood for PvP combat.
It's not impossible that Ashes could be the exception.
We will have to see.